No second language no promotion

[BATCO]

From Soldier Magazine:
SOLDIER SEPT 2014 (http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/b9e186ae#/b9e186ae/14)

British Army are to introduce a language requirement for promotion. Daily Telegraph added in its report on this article that from 2018, British Army captains without a second language will not be promotable to major.

Will the RAF (RN, and RM) follow suit? In my experience RAF have always been parsimonious in allocating language training: no established post at end of training = no training. British Army in contrast have always had a more relaxed attitude to such training as a 'broadening' experience, allowing personnel to do such training as a speculative investment.

So, will RAF (and others) follow the Army?

Regards
BATCO

[aw ditor]

Estuary English?

[Sandy Parts]

mange too, mange too Rodney. Should mean some nice work for language tutors near to garrisons. One way to use up the SLC and ELC maybe?

[Wensleydale]

One wonders what the standard would be? A French 'O' level from 30 years ago or the ability to order beer in 7 different languages (the latter the most important for RAF aircrew).

[Uncle Ginsters]

"Mon ami va payer"
"Mein Freund zahlt"
"Mi amigo pagará"

Essential life skills ;-)

[Biggus]

Is your proficiency to be checked on a regular basis throughout your career - a language "standards" unit perchance?

[Courtney Mil]

After independence, will Scottish count?

[Capetonian]

What language will be considered? Any, in which case it's pointless, or one that might be pertinent to somewhere one might be deployed.

Not much point in speaking Tagalog if you're going to be deployed to Iraq.

[Whenurhappy]

Will the RAF follow en suite? I jolly well hope so....

[BEagle]

Back in the days of 1369s, you always had to indicate 'language proficiency', level attained and when it was achieved. So for many years I included 'O' level French, German....and Latin, achieved 1965.

But some oikish wheel opined that this was take the pi$$, so told me that it 'wasn't relevant'. Pratt....:mad:

Not a bad idea to have a second language at conversational level - but is some senior pongo going to decide which languages are acceptable? And how will they assess whether Captain ffanshawe-Smythe's claim to speak fluent Klingon is actually valid?

[Professor Plum]

What about management speak? That's another language in itself!

[Rasputin412]

Having studied Russian, Arabic and Serbo-Croat at University, this actually stifled my promotion in the pilot branch. You have to be 'Above Average' in the air for promotion as a pilot, so when you keep getting pinged off to do 'language' jobs, your flying suffers. I was told by the then Stn Cdr that I had just done an incredible job for a 6-month detachment, but had set my promotion chances back 18-24 months!

I leave next year!

[Megaton]

In the 90s, Shrivenham was full of Army officers doing MSc courses to soften the blow of not being selected for ACSC. There was absolutely no medium- long-term return for the Army and, of those I observed at first hand, their educational abilities were severely stretched by a post-graduate degree course. It was an absolute waste of time and money.

[Union Jack]

Alors, enculez-moi!

One can't help wondering how much difference this might make to the proportion of promotable captains in the first place, also presupposing that we still have a "British" Army in 2018.....:E

Jack
(Admiralty Interpreter)

[BATCO]

Capetonian

Soldier magazine says that French and Arabic will be privileged.

Otherwise,

Which Ppruners would not have been admitted to the san ldrs club for lack of a second language?

BATCO declares himself as SLP 3432 in French (pre sqn ldr) and SLP 2222 in Modern Hebrew (albeit post promotion to wg cdr).

Regards
BATCO

[Typhoon93]

I haven't read all of the article.... but has this been imposed by the Ministry of Defence or has this been imposed by the British Army's chain of command?

[Courtney Mil]

Yes, Typhoon. Six paragraphs were a bit of a struggle!

[Wensleydale]

I always thought that the military take was "Johnny Foreigner" needs to speak English. Have things changed so much?

[beardy]

I don't believe linguistic training (as proposed in the article) is the same as learning a language. As I understand it the former means that you would be able to name the parts of speech used, the latter would mean being able to communicate in another language.

[Jimlad1]

"
I haven't read all of the article.... but has this been imposed by the Ministry of Defence or has this been imposed by the British Army's chain of command? "

You do understand that the MOD is the same as the British Army don't you? I am sick of people trying to make out that somehow the evil nasty MOD is different from the brave plucky Armed Forces. Please do some basic research in future.

[NutLoose]

Surely for French all you need is the abilty to shout "come back" or "put your hands down" very loudly.

:rolleyes:

[Exascot]

As an AT and airline pilot one had to communicate with hundreds of different nationalities on the radio. Never had a problem. Does this make me a multi-national communicator?

Must confess we did have a problem going into Moscow once when they said the airport was closed. Luckily the nav spoke the old lingo and it was established that they were closed due to a VIP arrival, which was us. Came in useful then.

I am not bad at American. I mean, come on, if you say something like pavement or rubbish bin they have no idea what you are talking about you have to translate.

[Courtney Mil]

Surely for French all you need is the abilty to shout "come back" or "put your hands down" very loudly.

Arse.









.

[Melchett01]

I don't see how the RAF could impose this when they care so little about language training unless it is required for a post and articulated as such in the formal job specs.

I am currently sitting out in yet another patch of sand having been pinged a luxurious 6 weeks prior to going. When I queried the entry on the job spec that said Arabic and French desirable and said that other than GCSE French over 20 years ago I couldn't speak a word of either, the reply came back don't worry it probably won't matter.

If that's our corporate attitude to language trg, I simply don't see how they can enforce it. And if they try to make you pay for it yourself through ELCs (my last post expected instructors to do a PGCE for the benefit of the establishment, with the bill paid for by the individual!) I can see people demonstrating some very choice Anglo-Saxon language skills.

[airborne_artist]

Professor Plum What about management speak? That's another language in itself! And then there's yoof speak :E

[Selatar]

Jimlad/typhoon 93,

I suspect this has come out of Andover as an Army vice MOD Centre initiative. It fits with the Army policy for contingency and farming out areas of the globe to the Brigades. I will be surprised if the RAF adopt it to the extent indicated in the article. I struggle to see it as a go/no go item on the Sqn Ldr Boards.

Having had some exposure to our mil linguist folks they fall into two general groups namely the Int types for whom it is a full time job and the Op types who do it as a hobby or a one off. General speaking those that take the later path suffer in terms of promotion in their core field, especially officers. There are also very few of them. I once trawled Defence for a Somali speaker. I found just one. :ugh:

[ian16th]

Way back in 1957, all commissioned ranks at the the RAF Liaison Party, Istres, we had 4 of them, had to be fluent in French. This was not a per-requisite for us Erks, but we had a Cpl Clerk, who had A-Level in French and he was the official unit interpreter and was paid about 1/6 a day extra.

[Boudreaux Bob]

The US Military tries to expand beyond "American".....although "English" as a second language is pretty much a common course in all of our Public Schools grade K-12. (EASL is really trying to teach Illegal Immigrants to speak English).


Monterey - Language Capital of the World (http://www.montereylanguagecapital.org/dli.htm)

[Jumping_Jack]

All part of the push to develop Army dominance of the new 'Defence Engagement' career stream, something that has been neglected of late. There is a serious effort to move the Defence Attaches away from being last tour 'thank yous' to being rather more professional and trained for the post.

[Jumping_Jack]

You do understand that the MOD is the same as the British Army don't you? I am sick of people trying to make out that somehow the evil nasty MOD is different from the brave plucky Armed Forces. Please do some basic research in future.

Err no it isn't. The MOD is a Ministry in Whitehall which oversees the three services. There is a great distinction between a MOD centre led initiative and a British Army one that only affects the Army.

Get off your high horse.....:rolleyes:

[Pontius Navigator]

If you want a second language pick one for where you would like a posting.

OC 206, great bloke, and a pilot, was told he had reached the pinnacle of his career.

Then one day, phone call, did he speak Africaans?

He did, wad promoted and posted as air atache.

[BEagle]

'Mongo', our Nav Radar on the Tin Triangle, had previously been a wing weapons officer in RAFG. If you've seen 'Blazing Saddles', you'll understand whence came his nickname! Quite a hooting, roaring chap he'd had his own unique way of conversing with ze Germans.

"Speak to them in English. If that doesn't work, shout at them in English. Nothing the buggers like more than being yelled at - they appreciate it as it reminds them of the old days. They'll stand to attention, click heels say 'Jawohl' and get on with it sharpish!".

Somehow I don't think Mongo ended up on the diplomatic circle. Grand chap though - and an excellent, tactical operator!

[Basil]

Uncle, I thought it was something like Mein freund bitzallen.
They used to laugh anyway - perhaps I was saying that my friend bites anything :E

[Rossian]

.... at the Bristol Uni Extramural Dept for French, a ferocious lady called Miette Day who took NO prisoners. On a w/e refresher course it started at arrival at 1700 and she did the interrogation to separate sheep from goats. Quick meal then into class until 10. When I announced that I'd been on the road for 10 hours to get there and I was off before the bar shut she demanded to know "Are you a trade unionist??".
Sat morning (early) one on one with her to listen to last night's recorded French radio news in 4 min bursts, "Translate! Go!" until one's brain hurt, then into normal class.
Sun morning at the instant translate part she told an RN 21/2 to go outside with his hangover until he was a normal human being again and to stop being a naughty man and NOT go drinking with these RAF trade unionists. But it sure as shot sharpened one's ability to translate under pressure.

Language training in the military ain't a sinecure. Two of my former bosses did it; one to do Arabic and the other Russian and both reported it was certainly no breeze. Don't jeer at it until you've tried it.


The Ancient Mariner

There must be others out there who did the language aptitude tests at N Luffenham. That was no breeze either.

My bet is the army wants Arabic and Farsi.

[CoffmanStarter]

English spoken at 130db, with the odd bit of gesticulation, usually gets the message across ... or so my dear old Dad would say :uhoh:

[BEagle]

On the topic of language skills, I remember a story many years ago about a (non-military, sorry) incident in Ireland.

It seems that some hapless German tourist had knocked a local off his bike and was up in front of the beak. Only problem being that the German didn't speak either Irish or English, so sat there looking somewhat bemused.

The beak had an idea - "Would there be anyone here who might be speaking German?", he asked.

At which there was a shuffling noise and a somewhat scruffy looking member of the public shambled to his feet..."Oi do, sorr, that I do!".

The beak recognised him as Clancy (?), who often came into the public gallery to sleep off a skinful, particularly when it was raining - as it frequently does in that part of the world.

"Well now, Clancy, that's a surprise to be sure", said the beak. "So come down here if you would"

After a few minutes bouncing off the furniture, Clancy stood swaying unsteadily at the front of the courtroom.

"Now then, Clancy, would yer be askin' him his name?" asked the beak

"That I will, sorr", Clancy replied, before facing the German and announcing in his best cartoon Gestapo voice "YOU - VOT ISS YOUR NAME?"

At which the court fell about with laughter, the case was dismissed and Clancy was fined a couple of quid for his trouble.

I so hope that story was true!

[CoffmanStarter]

Brilliant BEagle :D:D:D:D

[Jimlad1]

"Err no it isn't. The MOD is a Ministry in Whitehall which oversees the three services. There is a great distinction between a MOD centre led initiative and a British Army one that only affects the Army. "

Actually its remarkably simple - the MOD is the Department of State which comprises the many diverse parts of Defence. The problem I have is that many people seem to regard the Ministry as an entity separate from the Armed Forces, conveniently ignoring that they are one and the same entity.

Sorry its a hobby horse of mine, but I find a lot of the problems Defence has stems from a 'them and us' attitude which acts as if anything deemed 'bad' automatically comes from the MOD, while anything deemed good comes from the armed forces...

Also arguably there is no such thing as MOD Centre anymore, but HOCS, but thats a totally different debate...

[West Coast]

Sign language. Sure most know a few signs already.

[Always a Sapper]

A reasonable idea, and considering the Army are more likely to be face to face with non-english language people on a daily basis while in theatre out of the three services while out patrolling or dealing with the local pop's reps. It could solve a lot of on the ground problems and goes a long way in hearts and minds.

I would include the RM and RAF Regt as having a similar face to face interaction as the Army in theatre

The Navy come second on the list while in port and doing boat/ship stop and search.

The RAF, in general I would have expected to interact on a daily basis with people who have some command of English, that is not to say you shouldnt try and learn the language but how often do you actually speak to the target on the ground before giving them the bad news?

Anyway, I digress, for the Army a second language is something that really should be introduced at Section Command level and not just Captain/Major. Complexity and depth of required knowledge can be increased in line with the rank structure and level of likely use.

[TomJoad]

After independence, will Scottish count?

One can only hope:ok:

Tom

[NutLoose]

Bring back

Fraulein Corinna Schnabel and her parrot.

I can understand the reasoning behind it, but will it not simply mean that everyone will learn an easier language and the services will be flush with say German speakers, but bereft of say mandarin or Russian?

[Cheeks]

A reasonable idea, and considering the Army are more likely to be face to face with non-english language people on a daily basis while in theatre out of the three services while out patrolling or dealing with the local pop's reps. It could solve a lot of on the ground problems and goes a long way in hearts and minds.But having a group of linguists within a battalion is useless for that purpose if they don't speak the right language and they don't deploy on all the patrols.

If a battalion is needed to go to Poland, will the army care if the company commanders speak Russian, Farsi, German & Arabic? Do you think those officers will get binned and that the army will scrape through the army looking for Polish speaking infantry captains to dump into that battalion? I doubt it.

As I understand it, the purpose of having a language skill is so that you can be deployed to embassies, international headquarters, multinational forces or be deployed as a liaison officer (so whilst we might not scrape up four polish speaking captains for the above deployment, we might want a polish speaking Maj. or Lt.Col. attached to HQ Coy. to play nice with the host country).

[Red Line Entry]

Basil,

You're right. Uncle is actually saying to the waitress

"My friend is counting"

But, hey, if it works...:ok:

[Fareastdriver]

I was watching the world go by clutching a beer in the foyer of a hotel in Beijing. By me were a western couple who looked as if the world had crashed around their ears. Conversation established why.

They were coming to China for a gap year to teach English in a college. For this they had done an extensive course in the Chinese language. It had taken them a year and they had also practised it with ethic Chinese back home to everybody's satisfaction.

Then they arrived in Beijing to find that they all spoke Mandarin; not Cantonese, the Chinese language they had learnt and that was also spoken by the Chinese at home who had originated from Hong Kong.

There was a lack of opportunities for English teachers in the Guangzhou area so they had wasted their time.

I am aware of four main languages in China; Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka and Chou Chou. Every province has it's own dialects and the country could be compared to Europe in size and the number of languages.

What I could use with confidence in one part would have them rolling on the floor a couple of hundred miles away.

[Genstabler]

Shows the importance of detailed reconnaissance. Auskunft ist ein Führungsmittel.

[Basil]

Loved the HK comedian who featured in a little video of simple Cantonese or Wongtongua (Translit?)
Simple 'Thank you' : 'M'goi'
'Big thank you' for, e.g., present: 'Dorchay'
"But you rarely have to say this because HK people hardly ever give you something for nothing and if they do, you so surprised you need door to lean on and chair to sit in - door-chair!" :p

NB, Before the Tsim sha tsui Tong came after me: his words, not mine ;)

[NutLoose]

How we have moved on from being live armed in Germany, and being told that if anyone tried to climb the sterile fence to shout the oligatory warnings in English prior opening fire with our muskets, and that if they didn't understand English, well, that was their tough luck.

[Sloppy Link]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtney Mil
After independence, will Scottish count?
One can only hope

Tom

From what I have read, the Scots can't count......well, to be fair, they only count the numbers they want to see.

[BEagle]

Pontious Navigator wrote:
Then one day, phone call, did he speak Africaans?

Sprakken zie Afrikaans:

?v=JYPdcHD_qTg

[CoffmanStarter]

In my book it all went downhill when we stopped setting the correct expectation on the first page of the old British Passport ...

Which was simply written in English ...

"Her Britannic Majesty commands and requires etc. etc."

None of this Secretary of State apologetic nonsense we have now :hmm:

[ian16th]

"Her Britannic Majesty commands and requires etc. etc."

And the Foreign Sec. signed each and every one of them!

My Dad had one signed by Nye Bevin.:ok:

[ValMORNA]

FareastDriver,


It is not just the dialects that are the problem, but having a Chinese character with various pronunciations and, on top of that, different tones to express them that can be the source of amusement or alarm.
As you will know there is but a tonal difference between a 'hair brush' the writing instrument, and a part of the female anatomy, as my instructor was quick to point out.

[Tigger_Too]

Tybed a Red 1 cwblhau cwrs iaith ar gyfer ei flypast heddiw?

[mad_jock]

I suspect they are going to have problems finding the right sort of Senior officers for the Engineers and REME. If they put it army wide.

A lot of ours could speak German at gutter level. But a lot of the Professional engineering trained officers who were highly talented in engineering and leadership really weren't skilled on there language side of their Brains.

Now there were a couple who were gifted in that area but realistically they needed watched like a hawk by the SNCO's when any sort of proper engineering decision was taken.

[Whenurhappy]

As one who studied a non-core language full time for over a year to gain 3333 level - I can tell you it's very, very hard work (and I scored well on the MLAT). Moreover, a huge amount of time is needed to maintain any degree of fluency, and this is principlly achieved through immersion training (no, not that sort...). And that was just so I could attend the local Staff College Advanced Course.

The FCO will send their people to live with families in difficult-language countries for up to 18 months, whilst they attend local courses. Can you imagine the MOD funding that for your average SO3/2 who is not in a language-related post?

If the Army is serious about this, they have to accept that the training has to be full-time for about a year in most languages; 2 years for Asiatic, Turkic and Arabic languages. The DCLC exams need to change, too. They are all predicated on the student leading a patrol in Helmand (irrespective of the language). 'Did the attackers leave on bicycles?' being a particularly memorable phrase for me to learn during my language training.

Edited to add: this is all about the Army making their Brigades as indispensible as possible. A while back I attended a number of briefings by 'Joint' and Army-led units. It was all about showing how vital that particular unit would be after Herrick (AFG).

[ditchvisitor]

Seeing as the RAF for the most part currently only seem to promote yes men, brown nosers and those that do the most pointless secondary duties, then I'm sure they will implement that soon enough!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

..and how sensible that they have waited until languages are no longer compulsory at Key Stage 4, so only 40% of students now graduate with a language GCSE!

[ShotOne]

"The Troon carrying the sausage was bummed by the RAF...in a great big poof"

[Willard Whyte]

Tybed a Red 1 cwblhau cwrs iaith ar gyfer ei flypast heddiw?

That takes me back...

http://www.turnipnet.com/whirligig/tv/children/watchwm/fpm_and_weed.jpg

[mad_jock]

Fox3 is it really fair though to make kids continue with a language if there time was spent with more productive subjects which will give them better grades than just scraping a pass at that level.

I too dumped my language at age 14 point in Scotland after 2 miserable years abusing French. I did however get top grades in sciences and maths which allowed me to do a degree in Engineering. Oh and I took woodwork instead of French which I have used through out my life to this day.

[The Helpful Stacker]

..and how sensible that they have waited until languages are no longer compulsory at Key Stage 4, so only 40% of students now graduate with a language GCSE!

Yet my daughter has just started at a newly opened free school at which, by the time she leaves, taking two languages will be compulsory.

At the moment she is learning Spanish and Latin, as of next year she will also be taking German, with the option to drop one of the languages at the start of Year 10.

Not all schools are the same.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

This is the benefit of Free Schools with their ability to write their own curriculum, however the point remains for a national perspective that it is no longer compulsory at KS4.

I agree with mad jock, but my comment was directed at the lack of joined up Government. Prospective Army Officers may not even have the opportunity to study a second language in some schools, and certainly not the one they may wish to study (e.g. German).
Personally, I don't think any subject should be compulsory past 14, including my own - science. The essentials can easily be covered by the end of KS3, and this will then allow many more options for technical/vocational training post - 14, which the UK is terrible at. It should also help certain key subject curriculum designers and teachers take a look at what is really essential in their subject in the real world.

I have extensively drawn on my year's proper woodwork class at school (not the current design & poster rubbish) to, among other things, build my own house singlehanded. One of the best courses I've ever done.

[parabellum]

With most foreign languages the quickest way to learn is via the Long Haired Dictionary, (LHD). One hopes these will be provided to young officers early in their career to make them language proficient. On satisfactory completion of the course the LHD can be re-used by the incoming JOs.


I think my first foreign language choice would be Scandinavian, followed by Northern European.

[Typhoon93]

Speaking as somebody who left school 5 years ago, back then I was glad I wasn't forced to take a foreign language course for my GCSE's as I hated it. Although now I am older and have a little bit more life experience, I wish I had have took an additional language course. Learning is easier when you're young. As you get older, learning something that is completely different to anything else you've experienced before is much harder. If you can learn a second language when young, you make life easier when you're older if you need to learn another language.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Ah, yes...Norwegian was my first LBHD!

Though I think if they are bucking for promotion, they ought to be capable of providing their own once sent on overseas Adventurous Training (or whatever they call it these days).

[Rossian]

.....I give in - what does LBHD stand for? Yes, I have googled for the abbreviations and I can't fit "longitudinal bulkhead" into your sentence. Go on help me out.

The Ancient Mariner

[brakedwell]

I wish I had have took an additional language course.

Better sort out your grammar before you consider learning another language :rolleyes:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Long Blonde Haired Dictionary

[Rossian]

........NOW it makes sense. Aged 18 and in a summer job in the Continental Hotel in Oslo I had one of them. (Or maybe she had me??) Working in the laundry dept it was very hot and steamy and there were big piles of soft towels lying around....
The down side was she liked to bite and not always gently. On my return home my mother's raised eyebrow and questioning the teeth marks on my midriff caused a certain amount of embarrassment. Ho hum. I'll have to and lie down now having come over all previous.

The Ancient Mariner