P2F Type Rating Success?

[Moorzy0201]

Evening chaps,


I'm more than likely going to get stung for this question as I am sure it's a sore subject for many people out there.


But how many of you out there have bought a 'Type Rating' and been able to secure a job with it? Whether you have just got a fresh type rating or paid for 500 hours experience.


I'm a F.I. with just over 1000 hours now on single engine aircraft.


Anyway, please don't bite my head off I am just asking a question......

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

In your case it could make sense, you have more than 1000 TT. I would still try to to avoid it and try to make my way through general aviation.

[Moorzy0201]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

:ok:

[darkroomsource]

I think it would be interesting to get an accurate response to the OP's question.

Have you gotten a job as a result of being part of a pay to fly scheme?

It might be interesting to see the results of such a survey. It might cause those who are thinking of it to reconsider.

[lingdee]

Not sure for other parts of the world for p2f but below is for p2f in Indonesia which i have posted in another thread

recently, a lot of lion air expats went over to oman air. There are not many expats left in lion air now. Most went to

flyscoot
qatar airways
etihad
british airways
cathay pacific
jet2
turkish airlines
korean air
flydubai
and others

even those p2f pilots at citilink, sky aviation, seri wijaya air and wings air have move on to silk air, tiger airways, wizz air, vietnam air ,malindo, malaysia airlines and air asia x.

Indonesia remain the most successful place for "career starters" and it has pays off handsomely.

They took the risk and grab every opportunity and now they are in major airlines flying widebody and earning handsome salary.

[Mach Jump]

But how many of you out there have bought a 'Type Rating' and been able to secure a job with it? Whether you have just got a fresh type rating or paid for 500 hours experience.

None so far then?:sad:

[darkroomsource]

To try to get back to the original post.

Without getting emotional (it's obvious that Pay to Fly is wrong morally), what I'd like to know is, are there ANY concrete examples (not heresay) of people who paid to fly, and then went on to get paid to fly?

Can we concretely tell young newbies that their chances of getting a real job after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars is 1 in 100 or 1 in 10 or 50-50?

How many people have actually done pay-to-fly?
And how many people have gone from pay-to-fly to a real (paying) job?
And, that real (paying) job, was it really any better than if they'd NOT gone to pay-to-fly first?

[John59]

paying an ATO is the introduction to p2f....everyone who spent 100k € is responsible for this consequence...
i'm not defending the p2f...nor am i with rich sons....
my 2 cents...

[darkroomsource]

I'm NOT trying to justify.
YOU're not getting the point.

HAS ANYONE EVER succeeded via the P2F route?

ANYONE?

I have heard "my mate knows of a dozen chaps who made it", but I've NEVER heard of a single actual name of a person who's done it and succeeded to get a better job later. Let alone been better off than if they'd not done the P2F, and had gone the instructor route, or Africa, or Indonesia (work, not P2F).

You can't argue with them over morals, they're so convinced that they're blinded by the advertising (apparently you're a bit blinded too, since you seem to have completely mis-interpreted this line of thought).

[magicmick]

To answer your question, there were a couple of guys posting using the names EpsilonVaz and Kangadee who both did 150 hr P2F schemes with EZY back in 2009 who were both eventually employed full time by EZY after completing a couple of Summer contracts.

A long time ago and the EZY P2F scheme is no longer available but it seemed to work for them and if you’re interested in anyone who has ever made a success of P2F then they would be examples.

Not that I condone the practice of P2F but it obviously has worked for some individuals in the past.

[darkroomsource]

OK, so now we're getting somewhere, sort of.
5 years ago, 2 people claimed to have gotten a better job after having done Pay-to-fly.
My guess, based on the number of companies offering it, for the time that they've been offering it, and the number of adverts currently out for it, is that there are/have been about 30 per month for the last 5 or 6 years.
So, (sure it's a guess, but it's probably close) about 60 months * 30 people is 1800 people have paid to fly, and 2, yes two, have succeeded.
(and the company they did it with is no longer in business)

Any more? anywhere? ever?

my guess is that the answer is going to be less than 1% success rate.

I'd love to be proven wrong. But I can guarantee you it's not 90% or 80% or even 50%.

So, if you're thinking of paying to fly, get the names of people who went through the program who have succeeded, and call them, and talk to them, and find out if they exist.

Pay to Fly is NOT like paying to get a College or University degree.

Pay to Fly is like government work programs where the government pays a subsidy to the company (except you're the one paying the subsidy), at the end of the contract, the employee is let go almost ALL the time. Why would a company pay full scale pay when the government will subsidise it?

Why would a company pay full scale pay when YOU pay them to fly?
So, that company will never hire you.
And as we can see, you've got a 2 in 1800 chance of getting a job somewhere else.

[magicmick]

The company that those put those two through EZY might well still be operating, just not putting students through EZY any longer, however I remember reading a post on PPRuNe several months ago that a court had ordered them to refund a student over £50k. Not sure if they paid up or just liquidated and ran away with the money.

The owner of the company was/ is an A320 TRI/ TRE, at the time he was putting people through EZY he was either working at EZY as a skipper or had been working for them recently. Sorry my info is so vague but it’s all I know.

While I don’t condone the P2F companies I do understand the frustration and the impatience of those that do go down that route. The end result can be anything between the following:

Completing the scheme and being offered full time well paid employment with the host airline.

The P2F company scarpering with the cash, leaving victims with no TR, no line flying and a £50k plus hole in their savings or a huge debt.

[MCDU2]

Couple of thoughts...

- what do you class as success following p2f?
- don't be mislead by supposed success stories of people securing employment

In the case of the first point consider where do the jobs lie following completion of these p2f courses? I would say that the lucky few end up in third tier airlines. They do not unfortunately end up at national airlines in sovereign democratic states in what we would consider to be the western world. I would go on to say that some of these schemes could actually prove detrimental to you securing gainful employment at a proper airline at a later stage in your career.

Secondly and by way of example from my own experiences. I went to a small flying school in the uk. In the year that I completed my training the "where are they now" pages of the school website would have the outsider believe that we must have been once of the most successful classes in the history of aviation. The reality was that employment was gained as follows:-

- cadets had ground jobs already and a promise of flying once successfully completing the course
- ended up in well known locos after paying for type ratings
- had contacts within flight ops/HR in an airline

[cgwhitemonk11]

Personally know 5 guys who P2F'd:

3 now employed on A320, 1 with EZY and 2 with Wizz, one has taken some time off but has 1000 hours on A320 so will find a job no problem I'm sure. The most successful of my friends who P2F'd is now a senior FO at Emirates on the 777 after going down the Lion air route. :ugh:

I didn't and am now about to start with Flybe coming in as an experienced TP guy and anticipate to be approximately 2 years behind the EZY/Wizz guys in terms of career progression (prob not the Wizz guys i reckon i already get paid more than they do) and 4 years behind the Emirates mate.

However here is what gives me comfort, when all 5 of them are bored to the teeth of operating an EFIS and pushing buttons, and have gone part time to follow other interests outside aviation like most do, in 10 - 15 years time I will still be interested in what I do having come up the ranks

Do whatever you need to do, but look yourself in the mirror 10 years from now and be able to be proud of the route you took, not ashamed of it

[Wodka]

A friend did the bmi P2F scheme and is now at EZY, looking at a command next year.

This was the scheme that started at EZY but after they kicked it into touch the TRE concerned struck a deal with his old mates at bmi. As the bmi training standard was a known quantity combined with the fact many of the senior EZY TRE's were ex bmi then so it followed that a backdoor deal existed for a while and {the not crap} bmi P2F guys were getting a shot at EZY with 150hrs on type.

With the demise of bmi this deal ceased and that was the end of the 'arrangement' - a short window of opportunity for a few guys who had £33k cash to make a huge gamble. Some failed the EZY interview and I guess are now in a very sticky situation, screwed basically.

I think what I am trying to highlight is that P2F is like the X-Factor. You see a few guys who have done very well out of it and think, yeah it's worth a go. You don't usually see the line of people round the block making their way back to the train station, dreams shattered.

[1RED2GREENS]

Congrats cgwhitemonk, well done!

There's so much talk of the whole p2f industry at the moment, it's a pitiful decline although obviously some have succeeded and bettered themselves.

There should be some kind of regulation and a limit to how many new licences the CAA's can issue per year, right now it's a free-for-all with a certain level of exploitation.

p2f is one thing, but picture this scenario...

The candidates who pass the assessment must pay for their own type rating (quite normal, but more pricey than the average/no it's not FR...) and they each get a 1 year contract at the least (paid of course)!

This surely does not come under the p2f umbrella!? Any takers?

[pilotchute]

Cgwhite,

The ex lion guy at Emirates you say? Where did he get his extra hours from cause you won't leave lion with anywhere near the Emirates minimums for entry.

[cgwhitemonk11]

Oman Air for several years and he may have done a year with Norweigen on contract just prior, I'm not promoting P2F but we can't deny it has worked for some

[pilotchute]

Thanks cg,

Yes it does work for some. Some being the ultimate word. Is Oman Air a step up from Lion or sideways??

I know guys at Lion and I can assure you that every month guys leave with nothing to go to flying wise.

I read on a thread here not long ago about a young lad who convinced his parents to give him £25k to do a 737 rating at CAE in Dubai. He was under the impression that it was a back door into Fly Dubai. He failed his check and had to pay even more. He didn't get a job with Fly Dubai either. He was now fallen out with his parents and I assume he can't repay the money.

Got £50k pounds you don't mind losing? Go pay to fly.

[MCDU2]

Asian 3rd world airlines followed by a career in the Middle East. Is that seriously what people consider to be a success story these days?

[cgwhitemonk11]

I realise I may have presented a P2F advert earlier and that was not my intention so just let me clarify.

The guy in Emirates who is sitting pretty now spent the majority of the previous 5 years mostly in Jakarta, and he personally told me it was a hellhole

The A320 guys all spent over a year in Turkey without any salary (another dump, sorry Turks)

1 guy spent a year in CONGO.. I'm not kidding, bloody Congo… with no salary…

If you think you can buy a zero hours rating for 20K and become a P2F god, your wrong and will end up on the scrap heap with all the others

If you think you can P2F and have circa 70K to burn after training (20K TR, 30K line training, 20K for licence fees + living costs during your year of 'work')
…. then your probably right you will one day end up flying a Jet, but you'll work for dirtbag companies in unpleasant places and will forever be known for what you are: a fool

Best of luck

[suferpilot]

A few guys I know who went through CTC and got placed with Easy have got binned off with about 150 hours jet time. This seems to becoming more and more common as CTC are churning out more and more pilots each year Easy has started demanding a steeper learning curve because they can.

What are you supposed to do with 150 hours A320 experience from a reputable airline except pay to fly? No airline will take somebody with that little experience unless you quite literally pay them!

[faacfilookingforajob]

And if you don't land a job after all this money invested for nothing, you are invited to renew your type ratings every year or buy a new type rating because now you need to know how to fly on several jets.

Better to have airbus, Boeing, a couple of Lear , citation, and gulfstream... Have at least 500h on each Airplane , be 29 years max and maybe you will get the privilege to touch the landing gear switch at minimum salary.

And your last flight must be within 3 months (on type)

[pilotchute]

Suferpilot,

The answer is simple. You stop throwing money at the problem. The idea that you have to spend more money because you "spent so much already" is insane.

You gambled and you lost.