Parachute jump from hell

[soloviev]

Hi. A friend of mine asked about the possibility to do vinculated parachute jumps from an hovering helicopter.
Well, to me it seems the limitation is about the length of the vinculating rope who can interfere with rotors. I did not see at the moment any other main issue.
Any suggestion about?

[Vovick]

What is vinculated? Static line?

[Gordy]

Do you mean "bungee" jump?

Straight parachute jumps are not a problem.

[MightyGem]

Hmmm...vinculate: to tie or bind.
Vinculate - definition, etymology and usage, examples and related words (http://www.finedictionary.com/Vinculate.html)

[fijdor]

Yep, the definition you posted fit the tread title.:8

JD

[Treg]

I and colleagues completed a number of static line jumps from B212 in the eighties. We did not hover, but maintained about 40kts. Static lines secured to floor rings resulting in bags not extending much past the skid.

I never questioned the safety of this at the time... just did as I was told...

[Boudreaux Bob]

Lots of things to consider about Static Line Jumping from helicopters.

Biggest thing is making sure nothing can get into any of the Rotor Blades (Main and Tail Rotor) or any other moving parts.

Also, making sure nothing on the Jumper can get hung up on anything.

Guarding Reserve and Main Chute deployment mechanisms really take on a new meaning in Helicopters as compared to Airplanes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odBuXF6dBd0

[Gomer Pylot]

Jumping from a helicopter is much easier than from a fixed-wing. I've done many jumps back in my younger days, and have flown jumpers in helicopters. As long as the static lines are a reasonable length and properly secured, there should be no problems. You need someone in the back to get the static lines back inside, so they don't bang the fuselage too badly, but otherwise it's a piece of cake. Don't expect a hover, because out of ground effect hover takes lots of power, and it may not be possible. We normally flew at 60 knots or so, there is no need for a hover.

[John Eacott]

Since the OP specifically asked about from a hovering helicopter, I've done this on numerous occasions, but never with a static line.

The jumpers specifically wanted a hover (below 10kias would do, really) because that gives them no airflow and therefore no stability until they pick up at 32ft/sec. Apparently it gives a totally different aspect to the jump, I guess akin to a balloon departure? But with a static line this 'buzz' would be virtually non-existent since the line and rapid deployment of the chute would give a quick stabilisation to the event.

Usual stuff about ensuring they depart evenly from both sides, step off and don't push off the fuselage, etc. As with other comments the length of the static line must be short enough not to create a problem, and a jumpmaster becomes essential to retrieve the static lines thus dictating a helicopter cabin size dependent on the number leaving and the number remaining.

[Boudreaux Bob]

gRBginTRAE4

[SuperF]

i was about to say that there is a video somewhere showing exactly why a pilot wouldn't want to fly parachuters, looks like BB beat me to it.

not a dig at the guys, they did well to get the chute back in and not send it into the tail, but if they hadn't thought about that and just cut it free, then we could have been watching a very different video!

i for one won't be putting my hand up to carry parachuters any time soon.

[soloviev]

Thanks to those correcting my English, I think static line is what I meant.
Well, interesting answers, thanks a lot.
My friend is a jumper and he wants to try a static jump from an AS350. Static line is 7 mt long. I've not calculated but 7 mt seems very long for the size of the 350, even if somebody from the cabin is recovering the lines and the helicopter is virtually hovering (yes, a bit of fwd speed would be beneficial).
I'll take a moment to make some measurement on a real 350, please let me know if any of you have interesting suggestions.

[Vovick]

What rig is he going to jump with? D-1-5U? Send him to Antonov-2 instead.

[OvertHawk]

7 metres!!! :eek:

Get someone to video the crash :=

[Treg]

Quote: ...I guess akin to a balloon departure? But with a static line this 'buzz' would be virtually non-existent since the line and rapid deployment of the chute would give a quick stabilisation to the event...

John, I had a static line jump out of the Swan Airship that would challenge the 'virtually non-existant' suggestion.

Having the door opened in silence and then stepping down onto the airship entry step with nothing but the sound of voices from the cabin as PAX watched on was very new. Also the unexpected feeling of fear after 40 odd jumps from fixed wing with equipment was not what I had expected.

However, the real sting was the extended deployment of the canopy due to the low (zero) initial airspeed on exit. Normally deployed within three seconds, my count had reached the LOOK, LOCATE of the cutaway drill as the snivelling canopy finally got its act together... LOCATE was followed with thank f@$k for that!

[Boudreaux Bob]

Treg,

There is a huge difference in the sound the rubber bands make as the shroud lines are removed during the opening process isn't it?

From an Airplane even....compared to Free Fall where one is at Terminal Velocity (Terminal....now there is a concept to that takes on new meaning when it comes to parachutes).

At slow speed...you can hear each one of them....."Thrup........Thrup.......Thrup....." but in Free Fall it is a single "Brrrrrrp" kind of sound.

A near Hover drop of a Static line Jumpers from a Chinook made for great Chuckles from the Chinook Crew. The Down Wash and near zero forward speed made for some very interesting openings when the Troops had only done C-130 and C-141 Jumps.:)

A seven Meter long Static Line on a 350......NO....NO....Hell NO!

[soloviev]

I do agree with those of you who disapprove the 7 meters on the 350.
But I've no experience on parachutes, I have my opinion on the job but just wanted to see listen to those who are experienced. Finally I found myself not so far from your mostly agreed opinion.
I don't know neither the parachute model nor the reason for the 7 meters long line, I'll certainly ask the jumper.

[Jet Ranger]

Although we are throwing them almost every week from FL100 in our B212, we´ve never done that with the static line. A few years ago they asked, and we refused to do that. Big NO to that :=.

They can get min. airspeed of 50-60 kts, max. 10.000 ft and that´s it.

With the all safety briefings and measures, they succeeded to rip off our 212 left doors, once ...:ugh:

JR

[Treg]

BB

Although I chuckled at your story, for some strange reason my palms started sweating.

The airship was at our base as a trial for bushfire spotting/command evaluation (this failed due low forward speed and typically high winds). We, a PJ team of around eight, had been asking for a jump the moment it arrived but were told no, no, No! This is not a toy... or words to that effect.

On the last day of the evaluation I just happened to be in the right place at the right time and my boss said, "wanna go for a leap?" 20min later we were geared up walking past other team members who were reasonably pissed that they had missed out.

My gloating remark of "too bad boys" as we climbed aboard the airship would come back to bite me. As my canopy flapped in the breeze during deployment they pissed themselves laughing and were not shy in taking the piss afterwards.

Happy days...:ok:

[Gomer Pylot]

The static lines we used in the US Army for jumping from UH1s were on the order of 2-3 meters or so, IIRC, although it's been about almost 40 years since I last used one. 7 meters is out of the question even for a UH1, and certainly for an AS350.

[RMK]

In sport skydiving, static line jumps are generally only used for initial-stage training purposes and this practice is in steep decline and has been removed from training practices in most countries . I haven’t seen someone do a static line jump in over 7yrs – I’ve been jumping over the past decade and have over a 1000 jumps.

My viewpoint is that anyone even asking about doing a static line jump would be a novice or new jumper and shouldn’t add the complexity of adding something extra like jumping out of a helicopter.

I’ve got many balloon and helicopter jumps and also don’t see what fun doing a static line jump would be – akin to pilot queries, you can usually judge someone’s skill/understanding by the queries they ask.

[Boudreaux Bob]

As a Lot of Jumpers would tell you, until you have shuffled out the Door wearing full Combat Kit at Night over an unlit DZ, you are still a "Leg".

I once met a fellow who only claimed four Jumps.....Sicily, Normandy, Holland, and the Rhine.

There's Jumpers and then there's Jumpers I reckon.

[Treg]

RMK

Whilst I respect your 1000 jumps, I would side with BB on this one (LMFAO). Having said that, I agree that in the sports jump world static line is an inferior process and a novice wishing to jump static line from a helicopter should be appropriately educated.

However, please don’t dismiss static line outright as it has its place where freefall and sports jump methodology would not produce appropriate outcomes i.e 80kg of equipment, low altitude, multiple jumpers, narrow wind cone, at sea, out of helicopter range.

[aa777888]

I'm a USPA D-licensed skydiver (non-current) who, at one time in the stone age, was also a USPA rated static line jumpmaster and now, much more recently, the holder of a U.S. private rotorcraft certificate.

With that disclaimer out of the way, FWIW (given my relatively low level of experience as a pilot) I don't think I'd be comfortable with putting static line jumpers out of most helicopters. Could it be done, yes, but I wouldn't be comfortable as either a jumper, jumpmaster or pilot. Certainly you'd want to short line it some and the skids would forever be an issue. It would certainly go better on ships with retractable gear or tailgates.

Freefall, on the other hand, is great. Yes, we've all seen the video that was posted some time ago showing the cock-up with the rig open in the cabin and getting loose. However that and other similar jump related risks are not unique to helicopters. More than one fixed wing aircraft has been destroyed and people lost because of such things. So indict the entire activity if you will, but don't indict it solely on the basis of it being associated with helicopters. I happen to think that skydiving, and helicopters, and balloons, and pretty much every other means of aerial conveyance, go together like peas and carrots :) But maybe that's because I was a skydiver first ;)

In a strange coincidence, here is this month's Parachutist magazine cover:

http://parachutistonline.com/sites/all/files/images/cover20149.png

[Boudreaux Bob]

Every Jump Airplane I ever flew I was equipped with a parachute myself for use in an Emergency if needed.

I would suggest that indicates a need for the Pilot to have means to exit an aircraft (helicopter or airplane) should control of the aircraft occur due to a parachute mishap.

[ShyTorque]

Years ago we used to regularly drop parachutists from up to 12,000 feet from our Puma helicopters. We did NOT use static lines, it was not allowed, free jumping only was the SOP. We used to fly with the gear up, at 55 kts and the jumpers used to dive out. Some of the crazy fools even overtook me, sitting in the right hand seat, by getting a run from the rear of the cabin, so they could wave. It always concerned me that one of them would get snagged or cause something to go through the tail rotor.

So I was never keen on this job, too many "what ifs" for my liking, especially as we weren't given chutes as pilots.

A few years before I arrived at the scene of this incident just after it had happened. They wouldn't have been so lucky in a helicopter:

The Free Fall Research Page: Cessna under a Parachute (http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/cessna.html)

[Mechta]

The Fatal Descent of an Mi-8 | Military.com (http://173.239.76.193/video/aircraft/helicopters/the-fatal-descent-of-an-mi-8/817475058001/)

[aa777888]

The Fatal Descent of an Mi-8 | Military.com
That's a very interesting video, not so much from the perspective of the entanglement, but from the perspective of the ensuing tail rotor failure. Particularly because that state existed for a rather long time allowing for detailed study.

Dumb-low-hour-guy observations/questions follow: it would appear from the slow rotation and the descent rate that the pilot attempted to put the ship into as low a torque state as possible. However why did he not try to use some forward speed to obtain some stabilization from the tail surfaces, in an auto or otherwise?

[Boudreaux Bob]

Logical question and exactly the same I was asking myself.

Plenty of altitude to gradually gain some airspeed without having to tuck the Nose and bring on a very high rate of descent.

Not knowing how effective the streamlining effect is on a Mil-8....it is hard to pass judgement on what happened. It might be they just do not have enough Tail Fin to make that a real choice.

The Parachute hanging off the Tail Rotor would actually have been an asset in that effort however as it would create a lot of drag while it was attached to the Tail Rotor.

We used Drag Chutes (generally Pilot Chutes from Personnel Reserve Chutes) combined with a Swivel and short piece of line to act as a Stabilizing device when carrying AH-1's as Underslung Loads for the Chinook.....otherwise the things would just spin like Tops or oscillate wildly as they were very unstable loads.

[Airmotive]

Several aspects....
To the OP, if you're not familiar with jump operations, teaching yourself is not an option. Go to a drop zone and get some training first from experienced jump pilots.


A static line from a hovering helo is NOT a sound plan. As a jumper, you have ZERO control over your body position until you've picked up some airspeed. Unless you're an experienced BASE jumper, you're going to tumble on exit. Add a static line to that mix and the result can be fatal.


Also, jumping from a helo is challenging. The instinct is to push off hard from the skid, not just let yourself fall. The result can be a mast bump. (or, umm....FODing the main rotor)


In summary...it's not amateur hour for either the pilot or the jumper.

[Mechta]

A quick google revealed the following info (their translation, not mine):

An Ми-8 with parachuters onboard near Khabarovsk the reducer of the tail screw (tailrotor gearbox?) of the helicopter has collapsed.

For four and a half of an hour before accident near Nefteyugansk approximately in 40 km from Khabarovsk in area of air station other military helicopter Mi-8 has had an accident. State of emergency has occured nearby 10:30 on local time (3:30 on Moscow). The chief of regional management ГО and ЧС Ivan Sych has informed "Interfax" from a place of incident, that in the helicopter there were three members of crew and eight parachuters.

According to eyewitnesses, the machine, doing greater circles, the beginnings quickly to fall. However falling is closer to the ground was slowed down. The crew has done the utmost to level the rotary-wing machine and to make an emergency landing with the least losses, informs RIA of "News".

On preliminary data, the reason of falling of the military helicopter became technical malfunction of the machine.

The chief of the press-service of the Air Forces of Russia colonel Alexander Drobyshevsky has informed, that during планого десантирования at height of 1200 m the reducer of the tail screw of the helicopter has collapsed.

After that the commander of crew, captain Andrey Ivanenko has allowed a command to eight parachuters to leave the machine, and itself has continued to keep the helicopter at safe height, allocating it from technical and inhabited constructions. After десантирования the helicopter has made rigid (hard?) landing.

Three pilots have was traumatized all of a various degree of weight (severity?) and have been hospitalized. The commander of the crew who has received crisis of both legs has seriously suffered only.

Earlier the chief of regional management ГО and ЧС Ivan Sych has told, that the helicopter at movement has hooked the back screw on a parachute of the jumped parachuter and has made an emergency landing. The parachuter also has suffered and has been hospitalized.

Another summary in English gave this:
It was in 2005 near Khabarovsk. At an altitude of 1200 m tail rotor of Mi-8 helicopter collapsed. Paratroopers were ordered to jump out, after that helicopter made a hard landing. Members of a crew were injured, but everyone survived.

So it looks as if the outcome was not as awful as might have been expected. It still doen't explain why no attempt was made to gain forward speed once clear of the decending parachutes.

[aa777888]

Thank you, Bob and Mechta :)

[John Eacott]

This seems a much better way of leaving than a static line :cool:

47tPJ4L_8z4#t=179

[Gordy]

Not knowing how effective the streamlining effect is on a Mil-8....it is hard to pass judgement on what happened. It might be they just do not have enough Tail Fin to make that a real choice.

I'm with you Bob, one can control the spin by use of collective. Remember the S-58 video where he lost the TR, punched the load and had the spin stopped but not enough altitude to get some forward speed......

Seems like he could have maybe got some forward airspeed. As I learned during my stuck pedal many years ago, collective can control everything....

[SuperF]

at least they loaded the 44 correctly...:ok:

[airborne_artist]

I'm sorry to reply to a thread that's almost as old as BEagle, but static line jumping from rotary beasts was practiced in the UK military.

I did three jumps from a Chinook in October 1986 onto Everleigh DZ, all before breakfast. I think we started at about 0500. We fitted parachutes, waited for the Wokka to land, emplaned, jumped, walked back to the chute truck with our used one in the bag, drew another and repeated. Three was enough for an annual jump qualification.

We'd got to the DZ on foot, as it incorporated our annual CFT in to the bargain.

And so ended my last day in uniform after five years in green and two in Dark Blue. On a DZ as the sun rose, eating an oatmeal block and holding a mug of tea, after not one but three jumps. I'd had a lot of fun, and got paid. Ridiculous value for money ;)

[helicopterjim]

Logical question and exactly the same I was asking myself.

Plenty of altitude to gradually gain some airspeed without having to tuck the Nose and bring on a very high rate of descent.


Quite possibly the weight of the parachutist caught on the tail had altered the CofG enough that the pilot was unable to apply enough nose down attitude to attain any forward speed. If this is the case then he was caught in a high altitude hover autorotation. Not likely that he would recover enough energy from the rotor system to perform a safe landing.

That or he was a poorly trained pilot or did not heed his training.

[nigelh]

Just for a laugh look at ShyTorque post 26 .
Open it and read the article under Correspondence at the bottom . Priceless !!!

You can see I do not have a job ......