Airspace in the UK?

[Dick Smith]

When I last flew in the UK I noticed some quite strange things about the airspace. For example, if I remember correctly, Plymouth Airport has a control tower and air traffic controllers but it is actually in G uncontrolled airspace. At the time, controllers were actually separating IFR aircraft from other IFR aircraft in uncontrolled airspace.

The other point I noticed was that a pilot could go IFR in uncontrolled airspace in the UK – in IMC – and do so without a flight plan and without communicating to anyone. Whilst some pilots said it never happens, I met a number of pilots who said they regularly flew in IMC without a flight plan and without communication to air traffic control. In fact, a person at the CAA at the time said that this was a very safe airspace as the IFR aircraft were not flying on air routes but random.

Any advice about the current British system would be greatly appreciated.

[switch_on_lofty]

Dick,

Yes that's pretty much spot on. Plymouth has now closed so there is no ATC there now though. Exeter is in a similar position (wrt IFR ATC OUTCAS). In the UK mil whilst you can go IMC without talking to anyone you should get a radar or procedural service (the word should basically means must in this context btw).

If you are concerned about IFR separation then you can get a Radar Service (not available everywhere though). There is not really any practical procedural separation OUTCAS.

Hope this is useful.

[chevvron]

Dick: in many areas of the UK, a service known as 'Lower Airspace Radar Service' is available in class G airspace. Details are in the UK AIP.
Under the London TMA for instance, Farnborough Radar will provide surveillance based services which will either provide you with information about conflicting traffic (called 'Traffic Service') or will provide you with vectors to avoid conflicting traffic (called De-confliction Service).
I used to work at Farnborough until I retired. Farnborough has access to several radar sources at Heathrow, Stansted, Debden and Pease Pottage (near Gatwick) in order to provide this service.

[Dick Smith]

Thanks. I understand that on weekends a number of the radar services do not operate - could that be so in the Plymouth area?

Even if they are operating are pilots obligated to use the service or can they operate IFR in Class G airspace without communicating at all ?

I would imagine there would be no en- route charge if not communicating to anyone. Do pilots operate this way to save money?

In Australia all IFR pilots must file a flight plan and be be reporting to the service provider and pay the IFR en route toll at all times- even in very remote airspace.

Sounds as if the UK system could save pilots a lot of money if copied in Australia

[OvertHawk]

Hi Dick

I operate VFR / IFR regularly outside CAS. Not being required to file IFR outside CAS and Off-routes gives you a lot of flexibility to decide "I don't like the weather" then climb and go IFR. Clearly, there is an exposure to bumping into someone doing the same thing and, whilst you're not required to talk to anyone, i certainly get a radar service wherever one is available (and tell them that i'm IMC) - simple common sense.

There are no charges levied for using a Lower Airspace Radar Service in UK. (You only start hitting charges when you start doing approaches). As for places being closed at weekends - more prevalent to the military establishments, but since LARS has started to be offered by a greater number of civvy providers there is more availability at weekends.

Specific to the Plymouth area is a radar service called "Plymouth Mil" which exists to support the extensive Naval training areas in that area and offers a LARS as a secondary function. It closes for significant periods over the holidays and is therefore sporadic in it's availability.

In general, i've always found airfields and ATC providers to be pretty relaxed about the VFR / IFR side of things - just tell them what you're doing. The only time it becomes an issue is if you want an Instrument approach, in which case they need to fit you in with their traffic, but they can usually work something out.

[Max Contingency]

IFR outside of controlled airspace in the UK is available to any pilot with an IR or IR(R) (formerly known as an IMC rating). There are only 3 Rules:

Rule 1. Fly above safety altitude (stops you hitting the ground)

Rule 2. Fly quadrantals (stops you hitting someone coming the other way)

Rule 3. There are no more rules!!!

[Dick Smith]

Thanks. Greatly appreciated.

If you file an IFR flight plan do you get a full ATC service in class G airspace?

That is do you get a full flight following and traffic information service both in and out of radar coverage. That's what happens in Australia .

Is there an en route charge for this service?

[ShyTorque]

You cannot rely on getting a full ATC service outside CAS in UK. if you fly in class G there is little advantage in filing a written flight plan.

I gave up trying to fly inside CAS (rotary wing) on a written flight plan years ago after experiencing long detours from the planned route, unworkable on a multi-sector day. I now operate as others have described, flying iaw MSA and quadrantals where required and free call relevant ATC units en route. Sometimes, subject to ATC priorities a handover will be obtained, but I don't rely on this. A "plan B" is my planned route, i.e. to avoid CAS in case a crossing service cannot be obtained. Plan A is the short cut bonus when a crossing can be obtained.

[Dick Smith]

Incredibly amazing!

Australian pilots will not be able to believe that aircraft can fly safely in IMC without being "in the system"

With far lower traffic densities in aus no pilot is allowed to enter IMC in uncontrolled airspace without a full position IFR flight plan being filed and making prior contact with ATC to obtain known traffic on other IFR aircraft.

This requirement exists even if flying over the remote Gibson Desert!

The full en route charge must be paid for all IMC flights.

And they normally require the flight details 30 minutes before so they can get the details int the FDP system .

How many mid airs have you had in IMC in uncontrolled airspace?

[Boudreaux Bob]

Shudders run up and down my Spine reading all this.

The USA fortunately has plenty of ATC coverage complete with Radar Service from Control Towers, Approach Controls, and Air Traffic Control Centers....to include Vectoring and Traffic Separation.

Our Standard Separation is 1,000 feet in altitude and 5NM laterally.

I can file an IFR Flight Plan that simply states "Point A to Point B, my desired Altitude, "Direct" for the route, ETD, and remarks of "Radar Vectors Requested".

I have never seen the need nor had the desire to fly IMC outside Controlled Airspace.

That is a function of the availability of Radar, ATC, and Landing Aids....as almost every small airfield in the Country has some sort of Approved Instrument Approach and Weather reporting that allows for the conduct of IFR Operations.....especially with the advent of GPS Approaches.

Even with no Control Tower.....some Approach or Center ATC unit controls the Airspace protected by the Approach or down to 700 feet AGL for those locations where the MDA is above that height above ground.

In the end it is the same.....but we have found a way to do it in a more organized fashion. That and we have the Government funded Infrastructure that is lacking in the UK.

We do not "charge" for ATC Services.....our system is funded by the Federal Government by means of Taxes from the total population. We see Aviation as benefiting the entire Population and not just the "Users" (Operators, Pilots, Engineers, Passengers On-Board Flights).

[ShyTorque]

BB,

I have never seen the need nor had the desire to fly IMC outside Controlled Airspace

Then you have led a more sheltered career than you previously thought. There are some large gaps in the UK LARS system, more so since the military drawdown over the past decade or so.

In such areas, you might get flight following via the excellent London and Scottish Information service, but that is all.

Unfortunately, the UK system works on the basis of "contracted out, must make a profit, safety comes second to commercial interests (whatever the authorities might wish to say). Liability issues mean that ATC controllers don't wish to take on a service they aren't mandated to provide.

So outside CAS is the responsibility of the operator (read captain)!

[Boudreaux Bob]

Actually, I have overlooked past experience flying offshore but then I was young and not in touch with my Mortality as I am now in my Retirement Years.

I can tell Dick of a very close miss while doing this IMC in Un-Controlled Airspace thing in the UK.

A BAH 61 inbound to the Shetlands passed me in cloud as we were going Outbound. We missed by about 50 feet in height and maybe a couple of hundred feet laterally.

It was right at the VOR/DECCA change over point.

I can still see what the BAH Pilots were wearing.

[RVDT]

Tit UK?

Have only flown there a couple of times and it sure is a little different.

Some things sure aren't what you expect or are used to in other parts of the planet.

Caveat: Only flown in 28 different countries to date. :p

[Dick Smith]

If flying IFR in cloud in the UK and not in radar coverage how do you separate your aircraft from others doing the same thing? Is there a special frequency to monitor and announce on?

[sky2000]

I tried that IMC flying in uncontrolled airspace once, about 20 years ago. Good that I talked to ATC, good that I didn't know that I was not required to do that.
At one point the controller said: I suggest you turn to 180 degrees now!
I wondered about the wording and asked: What do you mean, you suggest?
She said: Well sir...I strongly suggest you turn, because there is opposing traffic! :eek:
If you guys are not required to talk to ATC, how do you get back out of the IMC conditions?

sky2000

[OvertHawk]

You get out of IMC conditions either by:

Using an approved instrument approach most, but not all of which, are in controlled airspace and / or subject to ATC radar or procedural service. (Although there are one or two places where approaches can be made out of hours by aircraft making blind calls on the applicable frequency).

Or transitioning to VMC en-route whilst remaining above MSA.

Whilst there is no "requirement" to talk to anyone, it would be foolish indeed not to avail yourself of the best ATC service available.

We're talking common sense here - just because something is "legal" does not mean you have to do it!

[Dick Smith]

Overthawk. If the British CAA regulations specifically allow IFR in IMC without reporting in any way surely they must have decided this is safe to do

More to the point- has there ever been a mid air in the UK between aircraft in uncontrolled airspace while in IMC?

[OvertHawk]

Hi Dick

I don't think that it's a case of them having specifically decided that it's "safe". I think its just the way that the situation has grown up.

They've decided that you can fly IMC outside of controlled airspace and that since there is no requirement to communicate when flying outside controlled airspace then, ergo, you can fly IMC without reporting. They're not advocating it, but you're allowed to do it.

Bear in mind that most of this legislation was originally drawn up just after WW2!

I'm not aware of any mid-airs in IMC outside controlled airspace but there must have been close calls.

I will always avail myself of the best ATC service available (Why would you not?) - I'm very uncomfortable without a radar service and do everything i can to avoid operating IMC without one (Climb, change route, ask to enter controlled airspace, regain VMC). Generally in the southern half of the UK, above MSA, you've got a pretty good chance of getting a radar service (depending on the time of day).

OH

[zkdli]

from memory, the most common form of Midair collision in the UK is one in the visual circuit...
I think historically there have been some midairs over the years between aircraft enroute in Class "G" or the open FIR as it was once called but again the majority have occurred in VMC.

The intersting point about IFR in class "G" is that the rules make no differentiation between VMC and IMC if the flight is being made above the transition level. In this case all that is legally required for IFR is that the pilot complies with the Quadrantal rule for level allocation.
Gliders are another case - I believe that for a a glider to fly IFR all that is required is that the pilot wears a prachute.
As a previous poster said - it might be legal but would you want to do it?

[ShyTorque]

As a previous poster said - it might be legal but would you want to do it?

Some of us are required to do it to get the job done. Thankfully, to fly IFR, aircraft must be transponder equipped. TCAS is a wonderful piece of equipment. Coupled with what ATC service can be obtained, it's deemed an acceptable level of risk.

I'd rather fly IMC in Class G than mix it below low cloud with any number of non transponding aircraft flown by pilots who aren't looking out properly or talking to ATC because they're pre-occupied with basic poling and navigation. I.e. Most weekends!

[OvertHawk]

My feeling exactly Shy...

[zkdli]

Forgive my memory if I'm wrong, but there are no electronic conspicuity requirements for IFR flight in class g, therefore you don't need a transponder to fly IFR, IMC in Uk Class G

[Dick Smith]

Yes. I also understand the UK has notified a difference with ICAO stating radio is not required for IFR in class G.

It obviously works with high levels of safety and would result in less forced risky scud running as happens in Australia where full flight plans details must be lodged with the government if about to enter IMC.

There are times where it would be safer for an Australian IFR qualified pilot to enter IMC - even for a few minutes- in uncontrolled airspace however there is no procedure to allow this without a full IFR plan being filed with ATC. Now that Flightwatch has been closed such a plan would most likely have to be transmitted on a frequency that was also being used to separate airline passenger aircraft. Not an ideal system.

And can someone confirm if a transponder is mandatory in class G in the UK ?

[OvertHawk]

No, Dick - A transponder is not, yet, mandatory in UK class G - i wish it were!!!

[zkdli]

just to confirm there are no restrictions on flight in class G in the UK, you are able to fly IFR, IMC above the transition altitude without a flight plan as long as you comply with the Quadrantal level rule, without talking to ATC, without any electronic navigation aids. Whether you should is another matter.

[ADIS5000]

I realise this is a rotary wing thread, but if you wish to go above FL100 in UK Class G then a transponder is mandatory. (Check the AIP.:))

Regards,

ADIS5000

[Arrrj]

G'day Dick,

"would result in less forced risky scud running".

As usual, quite correct.

Particularly via YKAT, many crashes that could have been avoided by what you suggest. 5-10 minutes IFR and you are clear of the cloud, but for well known reasons, that doesn't happen.

That said, with the new Part 61 rules...perhaps none of us will be flying in Aus soon ! (What a mess the introduction has been...).

Good luck to us all.

Arrrj

[Dick Smith]

One of my airspace proposals of a lifetime ago ( or so it seems) featured " free in G" which copied the proven UK and Canadian system.

Unfortunately not understood by many who could benefit so it did not go ahead. Good to hear that the UK and Canada still have this feature. Means a pilot can enter cloud easily in un controlled airspace if necessary for safety.

[chevvron]

Quadrantals in the UK will soon be replaced by semi-circulars.