Chucking it in

[whentostop]

As the title suggests I have had enough. After years of slogging it out in GA sometimes working 2 jobs to pay the bills (sometimes no flying job at all) it's time to realise that even with a few thousand hours it isn't going anywhere.

Australian aviation is in the toilet and getting hired by anyone remotely ethical seems more based on how many people your dad knows at the company as opposed to wether you can fly an aircraft safely and to SOPs.

I've been asked to work for free, told I'm too old (was 28) and even been asked to pay for my own ICUS. All of this for the chance to fly barely airworthy 30 year old pieces of junk. Worst thing is people I trained with did pay for training and worked for free and some are in much better positions than I am now.

I'm tired of poor pay and intimidation from owners who think they know how to better fly an aircraft than the pilot even though they don't even have a PPL!

I am getting as far away from aviation as possible. Who else is coming?

[OnceWasAnAviator]

I made the same decision for similar reasons twelve years ago. Just do it.

[sms777]

Hear you brother!
Been there, done it, walked away 12 years ago and have'nt looked back. I have done all the steps like everyone else, got nowhere. Last resort I have bought an aeroplane, started my own charter business, got paid to see almost every airfield and airport in Australia had lots of fun, almost made some money but at the time I did not care because I was flying.....then came CASA. They have realised that I was too comfortable so lets ground him on technicalities. I could not fight them.....I did not want to. I had enough. Sold my aeroplane and went back to my first trade.
Problem is I still run outside when I hear an aeroplane fly overhead my backyard......Damn aviation....:{

[Fred Gassit]

I've bailed out after close to 20 years, don't miss it at all.
Im still very much an enthusiast though so I've got my (expensive) hobby back.
Just don't let bitterness consume you, there's nothing wrong with changing careers.

[deadcut]

Where to though?
My mates out in the real world aren't fairing that much better.
Also lets keep the anecdotes to a minimum. For example "a mate of mine earns $200k after dropping out of high school with no training"

I'm sure things like that have happened but it does not represent the majority of the working population.

[whentostop]

I will probably go back to what I used to do. It's not IT and doesn't pay 200k a year but I get to home every night. I also don't have to justify everything I do to my boss and I get weekends off!

Note it does pay more than an FO gets at Qlink.

[deadcut]

I understand. If being home every night and having the weekends off is the most important thing to you then that is what you need to do.

Also anyone who thinks IT is any better shape than aviation (for the employees) is kidding themselves.

I'm with you on the bosses though. Lord knows why so many absolute sociopaths owning GA businesses.

[Ultralights]

earn a living outside of GA, buy a nce RAAus aircraft, instead of a new car, and fly for fun to keep your sanity.

thats about the only way left to enjoy flying..

thanks CASA::(

[peterc005]

People whine about GA and I keep hearing stories about the mystical mate of a mate who earns $120k a year holding stop signs for road works.

The reality is that it's tough out there.

IT and Accounting are stuffed because of all the overseas visa holders here glad to earn $40k instead of the $4k a year they's earn at home.

Similar situation for manufacturing or retail.

Mining boom has been and gone.

There are way too many teachers, and any jobs are contract or casual.

Quite a few jobs in Aged Care etc, but you'd be wiping wrinkly bums for $18 an hour.

We are heading the USA way, with a shrinking middle class.

Running a GA business is tough, and being mean is probably the only way to survive. Running a GA business would be depressing, knowing you employees don't give a **** about you and are just using you as a stepping stone to the airlines.

[whentostop]

Peter,

Not giving a **** can be a two way street. When your getting paid by the flying hour only yet your employer expects you answer phones in the office when your not flying (working for free) the goodwill disappears quickly. This is why many move on at the first opportunity.

Flying wasn't my first job out of school so I am well aware of the difficulties facing the Australian job market right now. Luckily I won't have to wipe butts as you put it.

[Jack Ranga]

Easy calling people whiners Pete when you've never put your arse on the line that these young blokes do. Especially when they refuse to pay for ICUS or work for free.

[whentostop]

The line of kids wiling to pay for everything went out the door and down the street unfortunately.

[50 50]

Living right under an RNAV approach I see plenty of aircraft, someone must be flying the bloody things!

[Desert Flower]

Problem is I still run outside when I hear an aeroplane fly overhead my backyard......Damn aviation....:{

And I thought I was the only one who done that....:{

DF.

[Howard Hughes]

I spent 10 years in the aviation wilderness before I finally got my first job. Mostly due to poor decisions by me and getting my licence just before the biggest downturn aviation has seen in my lifetime.

16 years on I'm having a ball.

Before I got a job in aviation I spent a lot of time driving trucks (pretending I was flying), digging post holes (always looking up) and generally just longing to be flying.

If you want it bad enough a good lifestyle is out there to be had, even in GA. Personally I prefer to work weekends, means I get to spend quality one on one time with my kids during the week.

Anyway I'll leave you with this thought: "A bad days flying is better than a good day in just about any other job (bikini inspector and F1 driver excluded)"! :ok:

[Jack Ranga]

Yes, that has to be remembered :ok: I bailed but it was a fairly easy decision! Some good mates stuck with it & achieved their goals.

Pete hasn't responded to my earlier comment because he knows someone who'll fly for free, pay for endorsements & buy their way into an airline job :cool:

[pithblot]

whentostop, I hear you mate. I've had a good run, got a page full of endorsements without paying for any of them and there were tough times in GA for me too. But, I dread to think what it would be like climbing out of a valley now to be trumped by a hundred others who will pay for endorsements and work for free!

If you've come this far, then you've probably been bitten by the bug so you will be looking up. But reality does bite and you've got to pay the bills. If you do chuck it in, maybe consider keeping your Medical. ASIC and DGA valid? There are good gigs out there and you might get one, but you've got to be prepared. You never know what might happen.

[compressor stall]

How different is it now for young (and not so young) ones to the times in the 90s, and early noughties?

[Mach E Avelli]

In the nineties and noughties it was probably about the same as it had always been before. A couple of bumper years, followed by several years of drought (sex life can also be like that!).
But it does seem that the drought periods are increasing and the good years perhaps gone forever. The steady erosion of GA can be blamed on- in no particular order:


1. too many companies chasing too little business, cutting prices and consequently snivelling on pilot conditions to try and balance their books - this has always been a problem, but is now the worst it's ever been with pilots sometimes expected to pay for their own IR renewals even though they are employed
2. too many pilots prepared to work for nothing and, as above, actually pay for the privilege
3. 40 year old aircraft which are no longer economic to maintain properly and are no longer acceptable to corporate clients; yet there are no affordable replacements - when the latest Baron sells for over a million bucks, who will pay for that?
4. cheap airfares, reasonable services to most regional airports now and much improved vehicles to get to those airports


So why would anyone charter some clapped-out old GA heap at whatever exorbitant rate per seat (compared with the airlines) when their trusty Landcruiser can deliver them in airconditioned comfort to an airport where a Q 400 or ATR 72 awaits? Not too many GA aircraft even have air conditioning.


In nearly 50 years at the game, I never saw a sustained pilot shortage, whether at GA level or in the airlines. There was a time in the U.K. where the high cost of entry meant they experienced a shortage for a few years, but that is certainly no longer the case there. Here, any shortage typically only lasted about year at a time. No, I do not believe we will ever see a pilot shortage hereabouts. China, yes, the USA maybe, Australia, never.


Move on, requalify in something that will enable you to find a well paid job and as suggested above, buy a nice RA machine if you really must fly.

[Donttakeittoheart]

Deleted post as it was taken the wrong way by some. Not the intention at all.

[Lasiorhinus]

Donttakeittoheart, that's a new take on getting out of aviation. You seem to still have the passion for flying, so you will probably be back. There are a lot better places to work in this industry than stuck in some remote corner of the country where the nearest large city is actually in Indonesia.

Your career hasn't let you down. Flying is still the same as it always has been, but the ground hassles to deal with seem to get worse. Perhaps you just need a change of scenery.

[Ultralights]

if you have the hours, get an RAAus endorsement, then instructor rating, and get your paid flying fix that way, everyone knows theres a shortage of EXPERIENCED instructors. its a cheaper way into a paid flying job. sure it wont be enough to live in if you have responsibilites such as a mortgage etc, but its still flying you get, and a bit of pocket money to continue your passion.

[Jack Ranga]

And RAA-Aus could do with an injection of GA experience. Good idea :ok:

[dibloc]

For every pilot that chucks it in, there's another out there for whom this fuels their fire to keep plugging away towards their goals or just to be thankful for the opportunities they've been given.

[pilotchute]

Someone said madness is doing the same thing many times expecting a different result. GA is just the same thing over and over and the result stays the same. GA is madness. Nobody needs to feel bad for bowing out. Especially if you had a good crack at it.

[walesregent]

Aviation is like a crack habit... only more expensive

[pilotchute]

Can also ruin you for years after you have given it up.

[tyler_durden_80]

Whentostop,
Thought about a career from the other side of the mic? Brisbane and Melbourne centre always need more good people, especially those who've seen a bit of the real world...

Air traffic controller | Airservices (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/careers/air-traffic-controller/)

[whentostop]

ATC is something I would love to do but I don't have what it takes I would say.

Those guys and girls are under the pump 24/7 and I take my hat off to them.

Maybe CASA would be a little less stressful!

[Jack Ranga]

No, you're not under the pump 24/7. You don't know whether you've got the aptitude til you have a crack :ok: It's not a career that has a specified entry criteria (well, it sorta has, but if you've got a CPL). Year 10 & proud :ok:

[KeepItRolling]

Whentostop,

Second Jack Rangas' remarks. Don't sell yourself short.

The knowledge you have acquired is invaluable to ATC.

I highly recommend giving it a crack.:}

And in a tower you get to spend your day criticizing everyone else' s landing.

KeepitRolling (700 hrs)

[Jay Bo]

That's if u can pass the aptitude test

[Jack Ranga]

That's it. I wouldn't pass the aptitude test now, guaranteed. In fact several current ATC's have failed it recently. It is a crock of you know what. There are ways of preparing for it though :ok:

[the_rookie]

Don't want to change the thread topic, but... Having spent a bit of time in 2 different control towers, I'm 100% certain I couldn't do it. Way to much going on for my stress meter

[CaptainInsaneO]

Stress?

I've seen the guy working at the Maccas register 'stressed out'.

Different people find different things stressful. I'm sure ATC to some people wouldn't find it as stressful as some other things in life.

It's all about how you manage it :ok:

Good luck in whichever career path you take! :ok:

[Ascend Charlie]

Chucking it in?

Yeah i did that back before Xmas last year. After 45 years of trying to make a living, and nearly 15,000 hrs of flight time, I had found that the fire had gone out. So I gave up hope of ever making my fortune.

Now in a new job, I am working on my second million dollars.







Given up on ever making the first million, so I am going straight for the second.:8

[NOSIGN]

I also think about it (throw'n it in) every so often. Sometimes it helps me when I think about a refueler who found out that I hadn't finished my atpls and then offered to pay for me to finish them with Nathan. I think he was sincere, and I truly had only known (R) for a few weeks. There is a lot of passion through aviation. It is a one-of-a-kind job. Good luck with your decision.

[deadcut]

Chucking it in?

Yeah i did that back before Xmas last year

After 45 years of trying to make a living, and nearly 15,000 hrs

Oh, so you retired then?

[Berealgetreal]

It's not the career it used to be. It's heading in one direction only. People simply don't want to pay to fly and we don't have oil fields to fill our airplanes up.

Once upon a time if you made it to an airline you would eventually fly a widebody and have overnights around the world. This is no longer the case. If you want to do that you will have to leave Australia full stop. Even that however is a debacle with licences and medicals etc. Plenty of great expat stories getting around! Not overly keen on the desert or inland China for that matter.

Compounding this is that these days, not even the guy in the left seat gets any respect (Australia). Many a time I've watched Cabin Crew, Refuellers, Middle Management publically (*cringe*) speak to Captains as thought they were beneath them or some bogan that wandered in wearing flip flops. It's out of control. CRINGEWORTHY.

If I personally was in GA, regionals..whatever (lowish paying) I'd be looking to change industries. For me, I'm counting down the days til I can hand my sh!t back.

People are stunned when I say this, it's nearly considered blasphemy in a cockpit! I clarify to friends that I love the machine and the guys I fly with but what the industry has become is not something I desire to be involved in forever anymore (you know like the guys that could retire but just do it for the love).

There is no way in hell, if I had my time over, that I would do it again.

Parts were fun, parts were terrifying and soul destroying but if you think the aviation path and career are privileged or great these days you need to get out more or get a different circle of friends.

In the end, Air Asia and all these cheap sh!t outfits will dominate the skies and people will sit smugly in the back thinking it's not that much different from Qantas happy with the fact they saved $20. Good luck to them but that's not what will save them from their mortgage troubles in the end. Good career selection at 18 years of age on the other hand will.

Good luck with it.

[601]

After 45 years of trying to make a living, and nearly 15,000 hrs of flight time, I had found that the fire had gone out.

I did 30 odd years in what arguably was the best time in GA. From new Barons, Chieftains, Islanders, Queenairs, Kingairs to Challengers. Thrown in was Chief Pilot and C&T.

The fire did not go out, the money in GA dried up. Airlines did not appeal. I was told that I was too experienced in one informal chat over a beer with an AOC holder!!

So I have spent the last 20 odd years helping others start their dream in GA.

I could talk to my peers in CASA without any them and us mentality.

But last year was time to quit. I enjoyed my 50 odd years in GA, but would dread starting out now with the forever changing goal posts.

I did miss the flying, but not the times when I had to descend from clear blue skies down through the red and yellow.

But I can still fly as SLF and critique the flight with my First Mate.

[Arnold E]

I am not so sure that people that are involved it aviation think that they are, somehow, "above" the average person. For instance, I see people here refer to customers as "punters". What do you, the great sky gods mean by that?
There are many things in the world that are not aviation that are both fun and challenging.:rolleyes:

[Jack Ranga]

There are many things in the world that are not aviation that are both fun and challenging.

Yeah! Exactly!

Like this:

Barefoot Skiing behind Airplane in 4K - Insane! Vooray - YouTube (http://youtu.be/vdTrr_VRKgU)

[Bones13]

Think I might take up barefoot skiing!

[Aussie Bob]

For instance, I see people here refer to customers as "punters". What do you, the great sky gods mean by that?

Arnold, certainly in my book "punters" is not derogatory. I first heard it used by a bunch of NT tour guides who were discussing how to give their punters the maximum possible enjoyment on their tour. I use it to describe my scenic flight passengers and my aim is to always give my punters the best value I possibly can. Invariably most of my punters are really nice folk as well.

But back to the topic, the best years in GA seem to have passed, I count myself lucky to have seen some. Never made the airlines. Quitting commercial flying is always on my mind. I have already done it once, then got dragged back, only to remember why I gave it up the first time.

[601]

certainly in my book "punters" is not derogatory.

I think the use of "punters" by the media and now by people referring to their clients is one of the most appalling terms I have ever heard.

The word punter may refer to:

Australian colloquial term for festival patron
A speculator in the stock market
A gambler, particularly an amateur betting on horse racing or a player in the game of Baccarat
A beginner skier or snowboarder, especially one with particularly bad style
Someone who uses a punt (boat)
Punter (football), a position in American or Canadian football
The Punters, a Newfoundland traditional music group
Punter (protocol), a file-transfer protocol
Ricky Ponting, nicknamed Punter, a former Australian cricketer
A British, Australian and Hiberno (Irish) English colloquial term for a paying guest or customer, especially
a patron of a public house
a patron of a brothel
a customer of a prostitute
more recently, a paying atendee of a festival or other event
Punter (ship), a Dutch flatbottom ship type
Australian colloquial term for voting citizens
Punternet an escort rating service


But I am getting off topic.

[Aussie Bob]

But I am getting off topic.

Good post though, perhaps I will stop using the term.

[Jack Ranga]

For chrissakes Bob, probably 90% of the Australian population would have no problem with Punter. If there's one thing I can't stand it's the weasel dick words for customer. 'Client' when I've bought an airfare :yuk:

[HarleyD]

40 years in the chair.

Loved every minute but was absolutely terrified for a few of the seconds.

Could have earned more money as a bus driver but never ever considered that option even though I have the licence for that as well.

Money isn't everything. If it's money you want, just get born into a privileged family. I'd rather be me than Gina Swineheart. Be a rock superstar, be a famous movie celebrity in Hollywood, smoke some d!ck and be colossally famous. Be Rupert Murdoch, be a Wall Street financier, rip off some pensioner for roof insulation, work FIFO in a mine in some god forsaken corner of WA, whatever. Get out and be happy, not a bitter twisted ex pilot, or never been pilot like some commenting here.

Stop whining and get out of a professional pilots forum, you are no longer a professional pilot. Leave the rest of us who actually enjoy it alone.

BTW I have Always been paid for a paying job, stuck to my professional guns and refused to do a half arsed job for a cheap price. If I chose to waive a payment it was to give someone a leg up( usually for personal instruction), not to sleaze my way into a job.

My old dad said there are only two types of job, ones that pay so much you don't care what the work is, or jobs that you enjoy so much the money isn't the critical factor..

I been lucky, my job in GA has taken me all round the world and the rewards are more than the money. The more committed I was the luckier I became.

If you think you are worth more money, ask for more money. If some scum sucking scab wants your job bad enough to work for nothing you are working for the wrong people. Move on, find another operator, show them how good you are and get paid for it. Not very one pays peanuts and expects monkeys.

Commmercial =money! get your share of it, but provide the service.

IR rating renewal tomorrow. Same butterflies as always, then booked to fly most days for next two weeks, then my first rec leave for 12 months, two whole weeks to work on my home built project then back to work and fly fly fly.

Can't take a joke? shouldn't have joined. More work for the rest of us.

HD

[Pinky the pilot]

Says it all, really, HarleyD:ok:

[WagnerPrincipal]

Love ya work Ranga and Harley.

[pilotchute]

Harley,

I wish it was as clear cut as you make it. Judging by your considerable time in the seat I would say the business of GA is vastly different to when you started.

Asking for "more money" or "moving on" when a company isn't paying you or treating you badly is great if you don't mind having months off searching for a new job competing against little a"""holes who don't mind paying for everything.

[WagnerPrincipal]

You to Pilotchute have hit the nail on the head. It is not an industry for the faint hearted. You have to put it first and everything else second. Expect a few tears before bedtime, and a few regrets.
Some get lucky, network well, have rich parents, Mensa IQ (RAAF candidates) or simply are single minded.
If you make it you will look back and smile, if you don't you may become bitter and twisted and post lots of crap on this site, or you may just move on.
Aviation and Aviators are not "special", most industries follow a similar template.

[Berealgetreal]

Pilotchute how dare you have a different opinion to the masses! (You rude bugger:}).

I'd consider that I've "made it". I make reasonably good money (I'm not wealthy) and I fly something that's big and powerful. However I'm not one for sugar coating. Hence I say "if I had my time over or if I was in GA etc" I'd be choosing an alternate career. All is good and well greasing a max crosswind landing or listening to the brutal roar after pressing the TOGA switch but when it comes to setting up a family, buying a house and feeding little ones this isn't a very smart option. Pity I didn't think of that when I left school!

With the stroke of pen gone is your medical and just as quickly a company can close and your skills are near worthless. I know from experience!! Not fun.

Now I'm not going to simply leave because I don't privately fly, paint airplane models in my spare time or have some sort of romantic Leonardo Di Caprio vision of my job. I'm going to do it as professionally as I possibly can until I have enough money to retire (be it early or not) and then quietly hand my stuff back.

Each to their own.