Private Flying Costs

[lineupandwait]

For those of you who fly for recreation only how are you justifying up to $1000 each weekend for a few hours flying? I've been out of the scene for a while and looking at doing a few hours to get back into it, but looking at the dual hire rates for something descent with a CSU it's pushing $500/h.

Are you sharing the flying? Dumping a whole heap of cash on it and ignoring the cost?

Thanks

[Jabawocky]

Dual will cost you more but a good C210 or V35/A36 will be $300-400/hr and if it is a G36 maybe $450.

If you are going to fly say 50 hours a year I think finding a good partnership or a buddy with a plane that is willing to charge you a fair price to reduce their costs.

I reckon my costs are $225-230/hr for a plane that is shared 50% and the RV10 is new, (1000 hrs) and we have a good but self maintained system. Having said that after 1000 hrs we did an avionics upgrade that was probably $25-30k after selling the outgoing, and not including about $20-25K in labour. So accounting for that add in another $50/hr.

You will find that across the range from a C172-A36 it will be from $250-450/hr.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I worked on $400/hr all up for 100 hr/yr in a BE35.

You need a high disposable income to throw that sort of money around for recreation. 90% of my GA flying over the last 40 years has been for business!

Dr :8

[Jack Ranga]

Lineup, you in Melbourne? I got shares in a syndicate I want to sell, great hourly rate, late model aircraft :E

[Squawk7700]

The high costs you are experiencing is why RA-Aus and the homebuilt market are booming (as best as they can given the current economic market).

[KRviator]

Can't speak for others, but I built an RV-9. Should be able to break even in less than a decade.


If you really are just flying for fun, rather than using your aircraft as a means to go places, there's plenty of RAAus aircraft for sale for under $50K.

[Squawk7700]

I have a basic VFR homebuilt.

It costs me $129 a week for fixed costs hangarage and insurance.

Fuel is $54 an hour.

Maintenance is about $5-7 a week if I fly an hour a week as I do it myself.

I own the aircraft outright and for this type you could pay from 70k to 110k.

There are likely other costs I am forgetting.

So to fly for 1 hour a week I am up for just under $200 an hour. Subsequent hours cost around $55-58 each.

Those costs are for a "cheap" VFR aircraft... It's a little scary really.

[Arnold E]

Having said that after 1000 hrs we did an avionics upgrade that was probably $25-30k after selling the outgoing, and not including about $20-25K in labour. So accounting for that add in another $50/hr.


Bl##dy hell Jabba, you should have come to us, that sounds horrific.:eek:

[Squawk7700]

True Nibbles, but I get an as new, 4 seat aircraft that does 120 knots that's always available, it's mine and I'm the only one that flies it. Where it starts to pay off is when it comes time to go somewhere for the weekend like AusFly, 4 hours each way, would cost me less than half of yours.

Same old argument really, be it boats, aircraft or women.

[Duck Pilot]

Pretty hard to justify paying over $300p/h for a reasonable touring aircraft that has a decent range. Have to admit that some of the RA AUS aircraft getting around these days are pretty darn good. If I was going to buy one I'd probably go for high wing Brumby. Depends where you live, but having to keep an aircraft at an aerodrome these days isn't exactly cheap either if you live in a city.

I have diverted my attention away slightly from private flying due to the high costs and bought a decent 4x4 that we now use for touring, might take a little longer to get to our destination but it's way less stressful on the wallet.

[Squawk7700]

A Victorian automobile club magazine suggested a couple of years ago that the average cost of running a 4x4 is in excess of $250 a week based on average kms. That starts to make my aircraft look cheap. We all need to understand these days that these toys are starting to cost a lot, especially those with engines that run on fossil fuels. Buy a yacht I say.

[rutan around]

A Yacht!!!!!! You have to be joking. I've been told by many people that the best and most accurate simulator you can use to experience yachting is to stand in a cold shower in winter similtaniously tearing up $100 notes and watching them flush down the drain.:{

[Squawk7700]

Yeah Rutan, take that either way. A yacht has the potential to make an aircraft look very cheap indeed !

[rutan around]

A lot of Yanks express running costs this way. Take all the costs that occur whether you fly or not and apply them to the first hour for the year.
eg hangar, hangar insurance, annual,unforseens and aircraft insurance if applicable. In my case that first hour costs about $4,000:{ However every hour after that only costs about $50. It makes the thought of an 8 hour trip much more palatable especially for Mrs RA.:E

[Jabawocky]

Arnold E,

The labour charge is what it would have been had I gone to you or anyone else. Perhaps even more. Including doing all the drawings etc.

This was a big job. I did it myself and with some of my staff and plane partner.

[gassed budgie]

I did just on 100 hours in the 172 over the last 12 months, a bit less than I normally do. That first hour cost me a tad over $6500. That included maintenance, insurance and some other small incidental fixed costs. There was no provision made for the hangaring of the aircraft ( the hangar's mine, but it still costs).

After that it cost me $70 an hour to fly the thing. The equates to $135 an hour over the last 12 months. The were no funds set aside for the engine or prop reserve, or for the avionics upgrade that will have to be done within the next couple of years.
The 210 also did 100 hours last year and the costs associated with that machine are exactly twice what they were for the 172.

Over the next couple of years I'll have to fork out dollars for the SID's on both aircraft and also the for the costs associated with making the aircraft ADS-B compliant. I don't expect to get much change if any, out of $45,000. There'll be no gain what so ever from a safety point of view, nor from an operational point of view. Thank you CAsA and AsA. Shafted yet again.

[Ultralights]

the RAAUS option isnt to bad, Nice metal 2 seaters can be had now for around $50K, my Savannah, 90kts cruise, costs about $50K for a low time one, insurance about $2200PA, fuel burn at 18ltrs/hr of Premium Unleaded at approx $1.70 Ltr. so about $30 an hour fuel. Hangarage, variable. But at Bankstown, Not cheap. 100hrlys usually around $500 if nothing wrong, which is most of the time with 912., and about $100 in replaced parts such as filters, plugs etc.

our avionics upgrade at 1000hrs, twin Ipad minis, twin AHRS units, independently powered, and MGl engine monitor, total about $2000, for 2 screen glass cockpit with complete digital information in PFD, including pitot derived airspeed, and static. GPS,Mag compass. and even ADSB in! software is free.

Comparable performance in cruise to a C152, far better take off and landing performance, but at half of less of the running costs, and an aircraft built in this millenium.

[Aussie Bob]

the RAAUS option isnt to bad

RAA has a lot going for it, that is until you actually want to go somewhere with the Mrs or a mate. Unfortunately, two 90 kg occupants and full tanks is usually over MTOW. Throw in a bit of camping gear and the range becomes limited to about a single circuit. If RAA could extend to 1000 kG then all these problems would disappear. I note that if there is any chance of a CASA presence, RAA pilots stay away in droves (recent NATFLY). A lot of RAA pilots fly overweight it would seem.

Sadly this keeps me in a GA registered flying machine :{

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Comparable performance in cruise to a C152, far better take off and landing performance, but at half of less of the running costs, and an aircraft built in this millenium.

Yeah, but if you want to know what an aeroplane flying backwards looks like - just pass a Savannah in a Bonanza! :E

Dr :8

[Squawk7700]

It should also be noted that you don't need to be registered RA-Aus to fly a light and fast single seater.

My GA costs are less than RA-Aus as I don't pay annual rego and I don't pay RA-Aus membership. Based on my insurance compared to previous poster Ultralights, I'm not losing out there either.

[Ultralights]

that is until you actually want to go somewhere with the Mrs or a mate. Unfortunately, two 90 kg occupants and full tanks is usually over MTOW. Throw in a bit of camping gear and the range becomes limited to about a single circuit.
thats true if you buy the wrong aircraft, an empty Jabiru can weigh up to 380kg! not leaving much for anything, a lighter CTLS will still do 120+kts, and carry enough for a trip away, its a lot lighter empty, my Savannah example, 280kg empty, MTOW 560kg. (legally, its rated to 600kg structurally)

you can also hit the gym to lose weight! :E and get that down from 2,90 kg blokes to 1, 90kg and one 80kg bloke. 10kg is a lot of sleeping gear.

also, shop in the outdoor hiking areas for travel gear. 2 mattresses, tent and 2 sleeping bags, will fit into a small bag and weigh in at no more than 5 kg. (and thats a -20 deg rated bag) if outdoorsy types can go on week long adventures in extreme environments with nothing but a backpack full of supplies, and essentials, so can you.. :ok:

[Squawk7700]

Your post brings back memories of over 10 years ago Ultralights. It's high speed, four seats and half decent hotels these days for me ! I gave up camping long ago :ok:

[Ultralights]

weight shouldnt be a problem then! just need a credit card for the Taxi from the airport to accom, and a few changed of clothes!

[Duck Pilot]

Dream GA machine for me is a V Tail Bonanza with tip tanks, IO-550 and an all glass cockpit....... Second option would be the latest Cirrus with all the goodies.

[Jabawocky]

Duckie, add the TAT TN to the IO550 and O2.

Now you will have Forkie salivating like Pavlov's dog. Me too secretly :E

Actually a nice tidy light weight A36 with all the above would probably be better, but less sex appeal than the V35B.

[Jack Ranga]

RV10 with long range tanks, 420 litres. And oxygen :D

[Aussie Bob]

RV10 with long range tanks, 420 litres. And oxygen

I get a nose bleed just thinking about it Jack, low and slow is way more fun.

[Jack Ranga]

Bob, your bladder will be more of a problem ;)

[Aussie Bob]

Not at all Jack, I have 9 hours fuel in the Scout, I only need an empty road, a beach or a paddock to take a leak.

[Squawk7700]

420 litres. Impressive.

That's a weeks gross salary for most people !

[Jack Ranga]

It doesn't get filled often :E

[mattyj]

SIDS is a scam by the manufacturers to sell aeroplanes..it's cheaper to refurbish a wreck that's sat in the rain for 20 years than buy a brand new half million dollar 6 seater Piper or Cessna. They found no one lining up to fork out for their showroom models and people lining up to hand back the crappy skycatchers so they came up with a way to "maintain" the old frames out of the sky!

[Frank Arouet]

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr13/scud_2008/001.jpg

[Squawk7700]

and Frank, we are still flying those EXACT same aircraft, just paying 20-40 times more.

[airdualbleedfault]

When I started flying in the mid 80s I could have got 6 lessons for my measly wage (which would have been at or below average wage).
Fast forward 30 years and you would be lucky to get 1.5 lessons for the "average" wage, what a stitch up !! :mad:

[SOPS]

I really fear for the future of private flying in Australia.

[Ultralights]

there is nothing to fear about the future of GA in Oz, you cannot fear what doesn't exist..:sad:

[thorn bird]

Perhaps a very difficult question to put a figure on, but just what percentage of operating costs can be attributed to regulatory burden?

I know in the US they are so worried about it that the FAA has been charged by their government to find ways to reduce that burden by 50%, and they have a strict timeline to do so, a couple of years I believe.

Given our Numpy's spent better than 20 years and hundreds of millions of dollars to manufacture the rubbish they call reformed regulations to date, that are tearing the guts out of the aviation industry in Australia, how long will it take them to follow the FAA and begin reducing the regulatory burden to stimulate growth in our industry? or will Australia just have to get used to no industry at all?