Wakey Wakey manning

[Selatar]

Whilst the DT have grabbed the 'still not enough army reserves' headline from today's DASA manpower figures (all on the web) it makes for some interesting analysis of the light blue as well (long train journey today).

In summary the RAF reached its manpower target of reducing to 33000 from 40500 in Jun. Noting that's a reduction of circa 7500 not the often media reported 5000 figure. Therefore we should now be seeing intake roughly equaling outflow, but it's not. By example the RN are in the same boat (pardon the pun) but they appear to have mastered the 'numbers in should equal numbers out' complex maths.

It seems (yet again) the RAF are turning the recruitment tap on too late and too slowly.

With NEM, pensions, Contingency and a growing economy I don't see retention getting better to solve this and that's reflected in PVR figures being the highest for at least 5 years. So a sizeable recruitment drive is needed PDQ.

So open to the floor. Does manning know what they are doing and is there a plan?

[gr4techie]

Don't forget the lack of techie pay for technical trades and loyalty is a two way thing.

I don't know if you seen this before but the stats in this article make interesting reading http://www.bainessimmons.com/tlp/air-clues-summer-2013.pdf

[The Nip]

When I joined up in 80, TG1&2 were paid more. I had no problem with this as it was a personal choice.

Since then times have changed, drastically. Various trades have been judged(rightly or wrongly) to be worthy of a pay increase. There is no such thing as techie pay, but those individuals in TG1&2 have not had their pay reduced.

Why, IMHO, is it that Techies will only be happy when they get paid more than anyone else irrespective of their salary? The highest scoring Trade in the JSJET system was the dental hygienist. There are other TGs who also deserve more but that is purely subjective.

[NutLoose]

http://cdn1.tnwcdn.com/files/2009/12/pyramid-of-****-1.jpg


:E

[reds & greens]

All aboard the "Techie Pay" argument bus...

[Uncle Ginsters]

It's not just recruitment but retention - to control the flow you need to control both ends of the pipe.

I see very little/nothing to counter the multitude of push factors that have amassed over recent years. Whatever happens, it needs to be significant.

You can recruit more to balance the numbers sheet, but keeping sufficient SQEP personnel is a wholly different issue.

[ROTORTREE]

Nutty
How true:D

[dallas]

It's not just recruitment but retention - to control the flow you need to control both ends of the pipe.

I see very little/nothing to counter the multitude of push factors that have amassed over recent years. Whatever happens, it needs to be significant.

You can recruit more to balance the numbers sheet, but keeping sufficient SQEP personnel is a wholly different issue.
That's a problem caused by the way it's managed. 2-year post holders firefighting and hoping a wheel doesn't come off during their watch, while the financiers look at people like buses they can buy and sell with demand. People, experience and loyalty are intangible on a balance sheet until shooting starts probably many miles away.

[Onceapilot]

Whatever the arguments....pay shows the "OFFICIAL" view of your worth!:uhoh:

OAP

[muppetofthenorth]

Over on The Student Room you see no shortage of people applying and wanting in... but all complaining of huge delays caused by Capita.

[Rossian]

.....seems to be bigger than the RAF; is there anything that Capita gets right?

There seem to be lots of reports in the press about their shortcomings in all sorts of areas other than the RAF.

The military seem to have outsourced all the things that "we" used to do when I was a lad and yet things don't seem to get better.

Olympics and G4S

Big IT companies who never seem to deliver yet keep being contracted in spite of their previous failures.

Where has any benefit to the services been gained? Sure as shot I can't see it.

The Ancient Mariner

[mymatetcm]

Reserves and Regular targets for RAF recruitment will be met this year or thereabouts. Only a few pinch point trades causing issues like ICT, and most techy jobs have all been filled.

[Selatar]

I wasn't aware Capita were leading the way.

Regardless, every month the light blue are shrinking by circa 125 people even though they have reached the mandated manning level early. Whilst 125 may not seem like a lot the organisation is a lot smaller now and these numbers matter. Unless staunched it will be increasingly problematic internally and not aid the RAFs cause come the next SDSR ie you obviously don't need the people.

A lot more intake appears to be required.

[Danny42C]

Selatar,

(1) Never did. (2) No.

Nutloose,

Splendid !

D.

[Party Animal]

I guess the NEM policy of offering extensions till age 60 for aircrew - PAS Flt Lt and above could be seen as a retention method.

Interesting where the truth lies though regarding manning. Are we actually in balance with everything wonderful or is the reality somewhat different?

Then again, it will all change under SDSR 15!

[zedder]

Or am I missing something obvious

Don't think so. I think it is Manning that are missing something obvious, and I don't think the problem of retention will only be restricted to Pilots. I say that as someone who is seeing a lot of the youngsters (particularly GD/WSO and WSOps) I used to fly with PVR'ing at what I assume for 'the system' is an alarming rate; if I was very cynical of course, perhaps you could argue that this was always part of the Master Plan to get the RAF numbers down below whatever the latest 'target' is ASAP.

I believe what started as a trickle is now turning into a serious flood. No doubt there is lots of hand-wringing going on among various members of the Air Force Board who are seeing the situation slip beyond their control at an alarming rate. All I can say to that is "You reap what you sow you completely clueless dickheads".

Standing by for the RAF to disappear up it's own arsehole!

[Willard Whyte]

Reserves and Regular targets for RAF recruitment will be met this year or thereabouts. Only a few pinch point trades causing issues like ICT, and most techy jobs have all been filled.

The 'Elephant' in the woodpile is of course that a newly qualified person ≠someone who's been in the job a decade+. Oh, they might be more of a gym queen and use the requisite number of sirs per sentence, but I'd rather have a cynical, fat, wheezy, '20-a-day' expert on my team than an unimaginative drone with shiny shoes, who's absent every Wednesday afternoon, and who spouts management b-s at every juncture.

[Willard Whyte]

Very condescending. Are you looking for an FTRS or FRS slot just for you. We at manning are hitting the targets, admittedly soft at the moment, every month.
Come clean rather than slag the system off jackaXs.

Wouldn't give a s h one t but for the fact it's now my tax £ contributing to the god almighty, and ongoing, ****-up.

Little sympathy for those that stay in: plenty of opportunity in the real world.

Get the Hell out of Dodge people!

[Selatar]

Geardown,

My interpretation is based on the figures ie fact rather than an insight into intent and I am therefore delighted manning are hitting their targets. I merely note that the RN have stopped at the level they were directed under SDSR whilst the light blue are continuing to reduce past that number. Given that manning are all over this I presume the RAF is to shrink beyond what is currently in the public domain.

[gr4techie]

When I joined up in 80, TG1&2 were paid more. I had no problem with this as it was a personal choice.

Since then times have changed, drastically. Various trades have been judged(rightly or wrongly) to be worthy of a pay increase. There is no such thing as techie pay, but those individuals in TG1&2 have not had their pay reduced.

Why, IMHO, is it that Techies will only be happy when they get paid more than anyone else irrespective of their salary? The highest scoring Trade in the JSJET system was the dental hygienist. There are other TGs who also deserve more but that is purely subjective.

I'm telling it as it is on the shop floor... many TG1 have PVR'd because they will get paid better and put up with less s*** elsewhere. I know many who walked straight into jobs in Aberdeen and don't know of any TG1 who PVR'd and was worse off.

If the RAF matched the pay that these guys can easily get working offshore, then you would drastically reduce the PVR rate.

What nobody has mentioned yet, is the problem is worse than the manning numbers suggest. As theses numbers do not take into account experience, qualifications, operational readiness, effectiveness, etc. The numbers are just bums on seats and not "guys who know what they are doing" versus "kid straight out of school".

[Willard Whyte]

What nobody has mentioned yet, is the problem is worse than the manning numbers suggest. As theses numbers do not take into account experience, qualifications, operational readiness, effectiveness, etc. The numbers are just bums on seats and not "guys who know what they are doing" versus "kid straight out of school".

I did kinda allude to it a couple of posts back 'r4. Maybe in a bit too much of a pi55ed up way though.

The 'Elephant' in the woodpile is of course that a newly qualified person ≠ someone who's been in the job a decade+. Oh, they might be more of a gym queen and use the requisite number of sirs per sentence, but I'd rather have a cynical, fat, wheezy, '20-a-day' expert on my team than an unimaginative drone with shiny shoes, who's absent every Wednesday afternoon, and who spouts management b-s at every juncture.

Got a feeling we're singing from the same hymn sheet though...

[4everAD]

Retention isn't helped when they come up with nuggets like introducing los 35 for FS's instead of age 55. If promoted I get 2 years less time in rank ie leave at age 53 not 55.

[Jayand]

The Nip, I left less than two years ago and walked into an offshore job, my salary is triple what it used to be for working half a year! The incentive to keep these talented people is what? Paying them the same as a cook or a stacker? If your techie cocks up people could die, Fact, if your dentist or stacker cocks up whats the big problem?

[The Nip]

Jayand,

Please read my post. I have nothing against Techies getting paid a good wage. If that meant they got more money because they contributed more than everyone else then fine.
It is also a fact that if wages are better in civi street then a lot of people will leave regardless.

But, in today's environment it has been judged that a percentage of other trades contribute in a valuable way justifying in a higher pay band. If that means they are paid the same as Techies then what is the problem. No Techie has lost money or any conditions they have.

Will techies only feel more valued when they can look down on someone else knowing they earn more?

[NutLoose]

Nip, put it this way, you had to be more academically qualified to become a Technician than you did to become a Cook, hence one of the differences in rates etc.

But more than that the wage structure was originally designed to equate over to that of Civi street. A Cook, Blanket Stacker, or Technician was paid on par with his civilian counterpart, this was to aid retention of such people in the services, you say the Technicians wage didn't decrease, but everyone else's increased, maybe it didn't at the time, but in the scheme of things now it now lags behind Civilian equivalents, hence the poor retention rate, where Cooks and Blanket Stackers are now on an artificially high wage in comparrison to their civilian conterparts, hence I bet there is not such a deficit in manning. Oddly the other one that may be lagging might be RAFP, though they probably are not direct equivalents "trade" wise.
Maybe they should have retained the JT rank instead of "demoting" it to SAC, that way a buffer in wages could have been retained as a JT is a higher rank than a SAC Cook.


.

[matkat]

GR4Techie, your assumption is far closer than you can imagine, I work for a well known north sea helicopter operator and we have taken on as many ex RAF types as we can get I also know a lot of ex techies that are offshore and as you say are alot better of am an ex techie myself.

[Whenurhappy]

I've posted on here a fair bit in the past; I'm reasonably senior and reasonably long in the tooth, so I should be tolerant. However, one effect of shrinking manpower in support areas and 'self-service' administration is that I spend increasingly longer times trying to do simple admin. For example I'm posted overseas 6 months ahead of planned date yet trying to get the 'system' to respond to the requirements of the new assignment (sorry, I used the expression 'posting' earlier. Verboten) is practically impossible. There's been some heroic effort by some TG 17 staff but decisions relating to rules on baggage, termination of SSSA, allowances, housing are typically vested with the Casework cell in Glasgow. The turnaround time on what had been in the past a local/station decision runs into months - time I simply do not have if I am to comply with the Assignment Order.


I'm prepared to be flexible (and have been for the better part of 30 years) - have my home-life upheaved again (poor Mrs Crash) - but the 'system' - predicated on the needs of an 18 year old Soldier posted (final warning, Crash. It's assignment) to Germany - is not flexible. I've seen a one-Star recently expected to meet near-unobtainable RTM dates go red with frustration as the various unconnected support wheels fail to mesh. This will definitely be my last move - I love the job, love serving the RAF and HMG, but why - oh why - is it made so hard to go about one's domestic business iso the Mission?


PS this isn't a dig at Adminers; on the contrary, I feel for those remaining having to work in such a Byzantine system.

[The Helpful Stacker]

....where Cooks and Blanket Stackers are now on an artificially high wage in comparrison to their civilian conterparts

Are they? Pray tell me, what is the equivalent of a 'blanket stacker' in civvy street, bearing in mind it is a trade that encompasses everything from 'stacking blankets' through logistics system controlling, ADR dispatching and a host of other roles?

I only ask because, although I don't do the job anymore, when I left the regular RAF I walked into a logistics management job in civvy street that paid £38k pa plus KPI linked bonuses of up to 14%, a job that I could do standing on my head (which is why I was awarded my full bonus every year until I left). That is a level of pay that (if only considering basic pay) a 'stacker' wouldn't see until they hit mid-range F/Sgt pay or, (if taking into account the bonus) until the dizzy heights of WO.

[gr4techie]

Please read my post. I have nothing against Techies getting paid a good wage. If that meant they got more money because they contributed more than everyone else then fine.
It is also a fact that if wages are better in civi street then a lot of people will leave regardless.

But, in today's environment it has been judged that a percentage of other trades contribute in a valuable way justifying in a higher pay band. If that means they are paid the same as Techies then what is the problem. No Techie has lost money or any conditions they have.

Will techies only feel more valued when they can look down on someone else knowing they earn more?

TG1 don't only get paid more in helicopter maint, many offshore companies are crying out for our TG1 to do ROV operator technician, Instrument Technician and Gas Turbine Technician roles. Etc.

When you say "no techie has lost money or any conditions"... Yes I have! Every year the cost of living goes up more than the RAF salary. Every day that someone stays in the RAF are they potentially losing money when they could be earning more elsewhere today?

I don't look down at anyone, I'm sure I'd struggle to do some other trades, they would use kit that I've no idea how to operate and I reckon even a SAC MT Driver could get paid more as a hazardous chemical HGV driver in civvy street.

The RAF are wondering why so many skilled, qualified and experienced people are leaving. The simple solution is pay. If you paid them a similar amount to the offshore jobs then the mass exodus would stop. It's that simple. Changing the cupboard in the single living accommodation or having one sports day doesn't solve it.

[NutLoose]

Stack you obviously did well and moved into a position higher than the average counterpart.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Stack you obviously did well and moved into a position higher than the average counterpart.

Not at all and to be honest, its a little insulting.

Whether folks like it or not the 'valued' trades in civvy street are not what they once were and decent quality logistics specialists are highly sought after in the ever increasingly "time is money" world we live in. Whilst techies may scoff at the thought, compared to many in the civvy world, service/ex-service 'stackers' are highly-regarded and often paid significantly higher than those the RAF provided.

Out of the ex-TSW (wrongly considered by many in the trade as 'de-skilled' stackers) colleagues I still keep in contact with very few aren't earning very good money post-discharge. Infact, given I re-trained as a nurse, I'm now probably on some of the lowest wages out of us all.

This is itself quite ironic, given we're discussing RAF trades earning more than they could in civvy street, because arguably nursing is one of them. As a RAuxAF nurse I earn more than any other Auggie trade with comparable rank/time served. I guess the MoD recognises the importance of actual life savers over spanner turning theoretical ones. ;)

[NutLoose]

I left nurses out of the equation as those and medics deserve far more on both sides of the fence.

[dkh51250]

THS, I hate to pull the "my hat is blacker than yours" stunt on you, however, on leaving the blue suit behind I was earning £52k a year some ten years ago. I was not an outstanding stacker, what I did have was a full and thorough understanding of my trade and the value of that to a prospective employer. Initially I had wanted to be a rigger, thank heavens for aptitude tests and good old fashioned SNCOs who ensured I knew what I should be doing.

[The Helpful Stacker]

THS, I hate to pull the "my hat is blacker than yours" stunt on you, however......

dkh51250 - No fear, this is exactly the point I'm trying to make. That 'stackers' aren't grossly overpaid in the RAF (as alluded to earlier in this thread) compared to what they can earn in civvy street.

I'm pretty sure you weren't 'stacking blankets' for £52k a year. ;)

[Always a Sapper]

Well said WW

[Mickj3]

I've been following the discussions on pay scales for different trades on this and another forum. The thrust being that aircraft techie's are more important/skilled than other trades so should be paid more. Prior to the introduction of the 1964 trade structure there were two streams within the ranks, the command stream and the technical stream. Each stream had its own pay rates so a Cpl/Sgt/F.Sgt (who wore there stripes the right way up) in the command stream received less pay than a Cpl Tech/Senior Tech/Chief Tech in the technical stream (who wore there stripes upside down) additionally, married men were paid more than single men. The 1970 pay deal was supposed to bring other ranks in line with the going rate in civie street. Three pay bands (1/2/3) were introduced for Cpl and below and each trade & rank was evaluated and placed in one of these bands. At the time this caused huge resentment from those in the lower bands and whilst they received some sympathy from their officers and SNCOs they were generally told to stop winging and get on with it. A couple of years later (72/73 I think) SNCOs and WO's were included in the pay banding and a whole new level of winging was achieved. Officers were never pay banded and many saw this as the main reason why nothing was ever done to get the anomalies (a Sgt in the low band received less than a Cpl in the highest band) and perceived injustices of the banding system sorted out. The aspiration that pay would stay in line with civilian equivalents seemed to work until 76/77 ish when the services were awarded a series of what became known as "Irishman rises" (pay rise 50p a week, rent up 75p). Pensions were at a set rate for each rank irrespective of pay band.. This was explained away as the "band of brothers concept" (apparently ok for pensions but not for pay). Now I never subscribed to this system and the argument put about by the aircraft techies that the consequence of them making an error could be the loss of a aircraft so they should be paid more cut little ice with me. I would counter that the actions of a rogue cook could end in the loss of a station (remember tacevals and hot-locks) if he put his mind to it. I also couldn't understand why, if a cook was worth less than a techie why wasn't an engineering officer worth more than a catering officer. Just my thoughts and no I wasn't a cook. :ugh::ugh:

[Lima Juliet]

why wasn't an engineering officer worth more than a catering officer. Just my thoughts and no I wasn't a cook

Ah, but they are...You see an EngO has to have a degree or HND and so gets accelerated promotion on comissioning, so if they both progress through the officer ranks at the same pace then the EngO is always paid more.

Being neither engineer, loggy or scribbly, I do think that engineers should earn more than loggies and loggies more than scribblies. Why? Because the eng needs more qualifications and in general has more responsibility than his/her compatritiots. You're more likely to kill someone if you get engineering wrong, slightly less likely if you give out the wrong stuff (unless its fuel!) and only a nasty paper-cut if you shuffle the wrong paper!

:E

LJ

[jayc530]

I agree. Yet they are happy to sign PAS Flt Lt to age 60. Manning will reap what they so!

[MSOCS]

Manning would do well to go on the road and establish what is causing angst amongst all trades and ranks. Using questionnaires like 'Your Say' doesn't reveal everything - on that questionnaire I often felt I was being forced to make simple choices on set areas that didn't cover all my personal concerns, but perhaps that was just me!

I'm not pointing any fingers at the guys and girls who work at Manning. I think they do the best they can and know a number of them well enough to confirm that assertion. Crisis does loom though and knowing what drives our people to leave needs to be addressed. Increasing Salary is a gift of the Treasury which would require AFPRB evidence to support. Very difficult area to argue convincingly enough across the Public Sector.

[Courtney Mil]

MSOCS, the whole point of such management surveys is to confine your choice of answers and to avoid having to report the difficult stuff up the chain of command. The companies that compile them are very specific in their questions to their clients so that they they compile the survey accordingly.

An online survey yields nice, neat, numerical results that can then be "analysed" to produce "statistics". Airships and politicians then get pie graphs and useful figures to spout in parliament.

Perhaps even more relevant are a) online surveys are relatively cheap and b) they don't get bogged down in individual issues - even if they are issues common to many of the respondents.

[gr4techie]

MSOCS, it's pointless doing a roadshow if they already know what they want to hear and what they want to turn a blind eye to. There's no point if they are unwilling to make the improvements that the shop floor points out.

Even an ""independent"" pay review body is a joke, when the president of the review body gets sacked for disagreeing with politicians.

[Biggus]

It's not an "independent" pay review body, and to be fair it doesn't claim to be....

[gr4techie]

Biggus are you sure about that? Just Google "independent pay review body sacked".

Adviser sacked by David Cameron after Armed Forces pay row 'paid the price' for supporting troops - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9932113/Adviser-sacked-by-David-Cameron-after-Armed-Forces-pay-row-paid-the-price-for-supporting-troops.html)

[Biggus]

What is meant by "independence"?

The AFPRB says that it provides "independent" advice to the government, however, if you follow this link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/288713/AFPRB_Report_43rd_2014.pdf

It's the actual 2014 report. Go in about 3 or 4 pages and read the terms of reference. Basically the AFPRB is told that in making its recommendation it must allow for how much MOD can actually afford, and what the government inflation target is. If that doesn't hamstring its "independence" then I don't know what does....

[Courtney Mil]

Correct, Biggus. I can't believe anyone thought otherwise.

[gamecock]

Of all the TG1 people I know who are banging out, not one has mentioned pay. The 2 biggest issues seem to be environmental (e.g moving Leuchars to Lossie) and op tempo. How many ops are Marham supporting now? Good luck getting anyone to answer the phone down there. The move to 6 month OOAs for non-formed units is the icing on the cake.

[Onceapilot]

Independent pay review, my arse.
Remind me, the official reason that the civilian Police earn their pension at 1/60ths, but the Military earn it at 1/70ths? Official answer...a Police career is classed as a Dangerous occupation.

OAP

[Lima Juliet]

Next year we earn at 1/47ths....

LJ :ok:

[Onceapilot]

Smoke and mirrors Leon. If you think that the 2015 pension is an improvement upon 2005 terms, please say so now!:ooh:

OAP

[Party Animal]

OAP, Pension 2015 is certainly an improvement for the govt cash holdings ;)

[Selatar]

The numbers pulling the plug is a bit high at the moment but it's not really that far off what was going on back in 2008, albeit it is still increasing. However, back in 2008 the light blue were recruiting loads to counter that. Today, numbers in are much less than numbers out despite reaching the 33k target (google dasa mod) I guess 33k may well have been a WAG in 2010 and manning are working to new figures.
:ok:

[acmech1954]

Having read through this thread, with the different arguments about the reasons non aircraft trades are equally deserving of equal pay I have seen no mention of the fact that every day that an aircraft techie works on an aircraft he is signing legal documents, documents that could, in the event of an accident, put them in prison for a number of years. How many other trades could claim that.
If an MT driver, cook/chef, shiney and many other trades gets posted to a new station, many of them will can carry on almost uninterrupted as their new environment is virtually identical to the previous, yet an aircraft tradesman can expect further training on type as changes could be fixed wing(small or large) to rotary or of course, these days, to UAVs. Some types now requiring civilian licencing and approvals, a bonus for those that get it and will prove to be useful when they leave the RAF if they are considering a future in the civilian industry.
Maybe I am biased, but at the wrong end of my chosen career to do me any good, but I do believe that aircraft trades do deserve better pay, pay which should be reflected in the pension as well !!

[VinRouge]

Looking at pure numbers is pointless. You need to look at branch and trade specifics, as some areas are worse than others.

BA DEP won't help and if BA fire the starting gun, the worry has to be others may follow suit. Many companies have been accruing large cash reserves post downturn and paying down debt, it now looks as if those cash reserves are starting to be used for business growth and investment, at a time it appears at least, as if the military are wanting to start to reduce the outflow rate.

Interesting times all in IMHO

[MSOCS]

gamecock,

Of all the TG1 people I know who are banging out, not one has mentioned pay. The 2 biggest issues seem to be environmental (e.g moving Leuchars to Lossie) and op tempo. How many ops are Marham supporting now? Good luck getting anyone to answer the phone down there. The move to 6 month OOAs for non-formed units is the icing on the cake.

I completely agree with your post and have not considered pure pay to be a driving factor for a number of years. The compound effect of being told (not asked, as we're military!) to deploy overseas yet again, after only a month or two off the back of a 4-6 month OOA, is killing our people and their good will. Our families are suffering and harmony has been nothing but a buzz word whose guidelines have been stiffly ignored since the concept was defined. We're being asked to do even more with even less and our "zero-defect" and "yes" cultures are wholly responsible and drive our SOs to constantly inform our VSOs that "we can do it" at every turn of the handle. Something's gotta give!

[gamecock]

egdg - I never said it wasn't a factor, only that it wasn't the main factor. Most of the 22yr/LOS 30 guys I've spoken to are leaving reluctantly, and probably wouldn't if the RAF was in the same state as it was just 5 or 6 years ago! Most of them don't want to go offshore - who wants to start that lifestyle in their 40s? This means they have taken on an even less stable work/life balance than when they were in the mob.

And I've never seen so many people leaving at the 12 yr point. The effect on trade competence (training plus experience) is noticeable. If the new generation of aircraft are supposed to tell you what component to change, and TG1 are nothing but box-changers, why are the Q courses 4 times longer?/

[The Helpful Stacker]

Having read through this thread, with the different arguments about the reasons non aircraft trades are equally deserving of equal pay I have seen no mention of the fact that every day that an aircraft techie works on an aircraft he is signing legal documents, documents that could, in the event of an accident, put them in prison for a number of years. How many other trades could claim that.

Both my previous trade during regular service (supply) and current RAuxAF trade (nursing) require having to make regular legal declarations that, in the event of error, could lead to a prison sentence.

[longer ron]

THS

Both my previous trade during regular service (supply) and current RAuxAF trade (nursing) require having to make regular legal declarations that, in the event of error, could lead to a prison sentence.

None of us would argue that nurses etc really do earn good pay - but to argue that a supplier signs as many legally binding documents as an a/c tradesman is quite comical :).

Depending on what job/role we are currently carrying out - aircraft techs can be signing legal documents almost by the minute,although sometimes it is the days where you just sign a couple of very significant lines to state that the a/c is safe to fly where you really earn the money !

[The Helpful Stacker]

.....but to argue that a supplier signs as many legally binding documents as an a/c tradesman is quite comical .

Who said suppliers sign "as many"? I'll quote what I originally quoted and highlight the relevant bit here.

I have seen no mention of the fact that every day that an aircraft techie works on an aircraft he is signing legal documents, documents that could, in the event of an accident, put them in prison for a number of years. How many other trades could claim that.

No mention is made of number of signatures in a day, just a 'boast' of how many trades can claim similar.

In the example of a supplier then an easy example off the top of my head is DG declarations. An IATA DG declaration is a legal document, incorrectly packaged DG consignments that have gone on to cause incidents on a/c have resulted in IATA DG declaration signatories receiving custodial sentences.

[Army Mover]

.... An IATA DG declaration is a legal document, incorrectly packaged DG consignments that have gone on to cause incidents on a/c have resulted in IATA DG declaration signatories receiving custodial sentences.

As is the IMDG Dangerous Goods Declaration on a shipment going by sea; one of the few documents (like the IATA version) where the signatory will end up in the dock, along with the head of the organisation who runs it.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Army Mover - Indeed. I was merely concentrating on flight safety matters though as it appears 'flight safety + signature' is the arguement our spanner turning friends are jumping on now.

[FFP]

"I know you've PVR'd, but any chance you can stay on a bit longer ?"
"As in, you'd like to retain me for a couple of months ?"
"Yes"
"Would I get my retention pay back ?"
"Probably not"
"There's your answer then" ;)

[NutLoose]

No mention is made of number of signatures in a day, just a 'boast' of how many trades can claim similar.

In the example of a supplier then an easy example off the top of my head is DG declarations. An IATA DG declaration is a legal document, incorrectly packaged DG consignments that have gone on to cause incidents on a/c have resulted in IATA DG declaration signatories receiving custodial sentences.

As is the IMDG Dangerous Goods Declaration on a shipment going by sea; one of the few documents (like the IATA version) where the signatory will end up in the dock, along with the head of the organisation who runs it.

I probably sign on average about twenty to thirty entries per day that are legal documents and for which I can recieve a custodial sentence, I can also recieve a custodial sentence for missing items that I should have checked and signed for.

[Army Mover]

I probably sign on average about twenty to thirty entries per day that are legal documents and for which I can recieve a custodial sentence, I can also recieve a custodial sentence for missing items that I should have checked and signed for.

How many individual packages of Dangerous Goods do you think go into a 12m ISO container, or on board an aircraft; each one covered by the declarations we have to sign off. Mate - this isn't about who's cleverer than who; I suffered a similar situation to you guys when a particular SO wanted to reward his favourite trade and needed to dumb-down another to balance his budget. It's about money, always has been, always will. Personally, I reckon those guys got a bum deal, but unless the country wins the next Euro-Lottery, it won't change until the public implications of them not changing it, outweigh those that do. I sincerely hope you get what you aspire to.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Isn't it extremely sad that this thread has become about the relative importance of various trades...this is exactly the problem that is crippling the RAF now.

It's surely not about how any trade relates to each other, but how every trade relates to the outside world.

You can't hold an entire force for this many years' pay freeze, in the face of inflation and CPI/RPI increases and not expect a backlash...the civilian world is at least still attempting to maintain parity.

At the same time, manning 'restraint' in many trades has made them appear less effective - that's not an indictment about the effort of those remaining, more a statement on wider manning structure (or lack of).

[BEagle]

About 30 years ago, IIRC, there was an increase in flying training requirements as Tornado entered service. We had 3 TWUs going full tilt and several QFIs were posted back from their operational squadrons to augment the training system's increased need.

Then, 22 years ago, it went the other way when a few of us on QFI tours were detached back to operational flying for GW1.

In both cases there was sufficient capacity in the system to cope with such demands; moreover, there were sufficient aerodromes, QFIs and aircraft to cope with any future surge demand.

But since then it's been cut after cut, plus the creeping cancer of contractorisation. I wonder how any expansion in times of national need could be accomplished should the need arise - a recent trawl has been conducted to establish whether there are pilots in non-flying appointments who could be released back to the front line. I'd been intrigued to know whether many were identified.

And that's just pilots! If the UK were ever to get back into the ASW game, how on earth could sufficient experienced rear crew be trained to operate the aircraft effectively.

'Manning' is not just about whether one trade should receive higher salary levels than another; neither should it a sticking plaster business which patches over the damage without treating the cause.

So the RAF is back over Iraq yet again and it could be for 'weeks if not months'. How will that work, given the effect on retention caused by recent operations with decreasing asset levels? One squadron commander told me that he didn't think that any of his pilots would be staying in - and his groundcrews were of a similar mind.

Anyway, good luck to those still serving; I just hope that the politicians have finally learned to ensure that their desert adventurism can be backed by adequate resources - unlike that little toad Bliar.

[jayc530]

The other issue regarding technical and non-technical trades is the extra two ranks they have go through, SAC(T) and Chf Tech. Especially considering that when promoted from Sgt there isn't the offer of extesion to age 55, ( LoS 35 under the NEM).

The average length of time to reach FS for non-technical trades is 22 years, for technical trades this increases to 27.5 years.

The extra time spent in training for technical trades simply doesn't make it an attractive option especially when they are paid the same.

[Onceapilot]

Gentlemen, read the proposed new employment / pension proposals, they are terrible IMO! Normal FULL "career", 18/40, less than 2% extended to age 60, average-pay pension rate, 1/47 accrual but, NO LUMP SUM unless you commute @ £1 to £12, No immediate pension till age 65,66,67,68,?? etc.... Oh yes, NO JOB SECURITY! No enhanced redundancy rights, you can be kissed of at any time.:(
DC was on about difficult Military times ahead !!

OAP

[OldnDaft]

Whenurhappy, It will certainly not help you and your move but I recently attended a series of meetings at PJHQ where this is considerable effort being expended to assist those pers moving to/from overseas. They are looking at everything from the information piece, to AO release dates, to streamlining regulations et al. The Gp Capt leading the work is determined to make sure that our people are better supported - thye days of being able to ask someone what they need to do with their car when posted to Bruggen are long gone and this is recognised.

[Doobry Firkin]

I left in Tranch 1 of the latest round of redundancies (by choice, if they'd have said no i'd have PVR'd but the extra cash was a bonus) one of the reasons i left was the pay and conditions and all the crap in the last 10 years. I'd been posted back from overseas (Cyprus to Kinloss) and within 3 weeks told i was posted again on promotion (Marham) as they job they had lined up for me had been taken by someone else. Then they said i could have stayed overseas but they decided to post me back to be near my kids then tried sending me to Marham when my kids are in the north of Scotland! It took about 6 weeks to arrange a move to a gapped post at Kinloss i could take up thanks to my FS who knew about it - manning denied it existed!
I was then pinged for MPA - as a Chef in the Officers Mess which was a great job for TG 1 Sooty/Rigger.

Overall i'd had enough of the BS i'd seen over 23 years, contractorisation, reductions in manpower leading to increased workload, multiskilling despite what they said being used to reduce manpower and seeing lots of other trades getting nice pay rises and moves to the higher band to aid retention. Yes we were already on the higher band so had nowhere to move but it's been said before (i said it to some MOD folks who visited Kinloss to 'gauge morale') there isnt a company in Civvy street that pays HR, Stores, Drivers and Engineers the same wage. Yes there are some jobs where the pay is up there (if you have the relevant quals) but the majority of them are lower paid. The Techies feel undervalued.

I work in aberdeen now for a big Oil and Gas Service Company and i can assure you unless you're the head of HR you earn a max of £28,000, Stores guys are on about the same and i don't think the ladies and guy in the canteen aren't on a great wage. Engineers get decidedly more.

The money isn't the whole story but when you lump it in with everything else we all have/had to put up with it's another straw on the camels back when you can earn more outside.

[alfred_the_great]

It seems the attitude of entitlement by Engineering personnel is common to both the RN and RAF.

[Surplus]

From the BBC:

In an effort to tackle a recruitment shortfall, the British Army is reported to be considering relaxing its rules to allow tattoos on the face, neck and hands.

Shortfall? What shortfall?

[Willard Whyte]

In an effort to tackle a recruitment shortfall, the British Army is reported to be considering relaxing its rules to allow tattoos on the face, neck and hands.

And that's just the ladies...

[Surplus]

eye thank you.

[adminblunty]

Doobry firkin, not sure where you are looking for shiney, stacker or chef jobs in Aberdeen, however these tell a different story.

Chef Manager - Off Shore (25354150) - reed.co.uk (http://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/chef-manager-off-shore/25354150#/jobs/hr-in-aberdeen&card=details)

HR Manager - Carlton Resource Solutions - Oil Careers (http://www.oilcareers.com/content/jobsearch/job_advert.asp?jobadid=1201447)

HR Business Partner (Recruitment, Human Resources) BLUH12606 (25336518) - reed.co.uk (http://www.reed.co.uk/jobs/hr-business-partner-recruitment-human-resources-bluh12606/25336518#/jobs/hr-in-aberdeen&card=details)

Supply Chain Manager - Michael Page International Recruitment Ltd - Oil Careers (http://www.oilcareers.com/content/jobsearch/job_advert.asp?jobadid=1187155)

Adminblunty (ex snco shiney, now earning over twice what I'd did in the RAF in 2008)

[acmech1954]

All of these jobs quoted are Management/partner/offshore, all of which are in the oil/ wind turbine industry which we all know pay very, very well. The main thread has been about shop floor tradesmen in 'normal' employment/ base maintenance where engineers are normally the top paid employees, discounting management of course.
I asked how many other trades where signing legal documents every working day, you have come up with 2 so far, out of how many trades.

[Lima Juliet]

Looking at the job adverts then you need to read them very carefully:

Chef Manager is paying way higher than usual as it is an offshore post where the individual will be living on a rig...

The HR Manager needs to have post-grad Masters level education - not your average scribbly...

The HR "Partner". In business a "partner" is someone who operates at Board level and would equate in our rank terms to roughly 1 or 2 star - not your average SNCO or JO...

The Supply Chain Manager pay is about right for this industry. As I said before, stackers do carry more responsibility than scribblies, but less than techies. You can bet that a techie working for the same company at the same managerial level is earning 10-20% more...

Just my two-penneth...

LJ :ok:

[BEagle]

In an effort to tackle a recruitment shortfall, the British Army is reported to be considering relaxing its rules to allow tattoos on the face, neck and hands.

Just sandblast them off. Problem solved!

[4everAD]

Acmech1954

TG4 sign exactly the same legally binding maintenance docs that TG1 do, and have direct flight safety responsibilities wrt servicing navaids.

[The Nip]

4everAD,

That is the point of my previous posts. Times have changed. There are examples in most trades where responsibilities have increased.
As those who know, the JSJET has to take a certain percentage in each trade and rank to make a judgement, it is not a straightforward system.
It is more complicated by the increasing amount of out of trade posts. QCIT as an example, which is filled predominately by engineering pers. Same pay for doing same job?

[VinRouge]

Just sandblast them off. Problem solved!

or angle grind them...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT821sbQlUQ

[Doobry Firkin]

Adminblunty i'm not looking for admin, chef or stacker jobs I'm an engineer! Despite the RAF shiney's thinking i was a chef, maybe a should apply for one of those Chef Management jobs?

We can all pick and choose the top paid jobs, the thread is about the basic guys on the ground not the managment as has been pointed out.

I was merely stating how things are in the company I work for... and many more, though there will always be exceptions the majority are generally lower paid.

[NutLoose]

How many individual packages of Dangerous Goods do you think go into a 12m ISO container, or on board an aircraft; each one covered by the declarations we have to sign off. Mate - this isn't about who's cleverer than who; I suffered a similar situation to you guys when a particular SO wanted to reward his favourite trade and needed to dumb-down another to balance his budget. It's about money, always has been, always will. Personally, I reckon those guys got a bum deal, but unless the country wins the next Euro-Lottery, it won't change until the public implications of them not changing it, outweigh those that do. I sincerely hope you get what you aspire to.

You were missing the point Army chappie, I was simply replying to give a rough indication of how many signatures I sign per day in response to the question.
I also do that day in day out 5-6 days a week, also for what it's worth, there is no time limitation on my tasks, your parcel when delivered is the end of the matter, if an aircraft I have worked on crashes and the cause is traced back to my workmanship 5, 10, 15 years down the line, I am the one in court and held culpable.

[Army Mover]

You were missing the point Army chappie .......

I got your point perfectly thanks; the relevant point as far as I'm concerned is that the last time I checked, there is no difference in the potential for injury to people, property or the environment, nor in the jail "we" may end up in. ;)

[longer ron]

AM
You are missing the point - even as a very junior tradesman - one can be signing many documents every day !


Like nutloose I can be signing documentation 5 - 6 days per week for 47 weeks every year.
Yesterday I arrived at work expecting a relatively easy day of teaching somebody flight servicing but was unexpectedly asked to go next door and help out on a servicing
So I ended up doing RVA work on a 35 year old RAF jet using a variety of shufti-scopes and flex video probe - carrying out structural integrity checks on the airframe !
Fairly normal day for a rigger - but as you shinies say - no more responsibility than (say) most admin or stores tasks.
We are not saying that TG1 are more important than others - it is the scope and level of responsibility that is a little different !


RVA = remote visual aids

[alfred_the_great]

Hoofing: in the basis 8 hours of my day is legally scrutinised, and every decision could put me in jail, I presume I should be paid more than an engineer?

Or perhaps we should all accept we are all part of the same team, and thus our pay should be broadly comparable. Or are you a special snowflake who deserves special treatment?

[longer ron]

Dunno ATG - since you are obviously a leg end in your own lunch time - who are we to be able to decide the answer to that question ; )

[Willard Whyte]

This has become a really unentertaining dick-swinging thread.

Apart from the odd post here and there.

[cornish-stormrider]

And the dullness knows no end.

Question for the non technical types who are adamant they deserve just as much and tech work is no big deal.

Your special job suddenly grinds to a halt for no reason, symptoms are spurious and the last operator can only give you vague ideas......

Crack on then, it needs to be fixed now as there are troops in contact who need an urgent document sent.


Time is ticking, have you got a diagnosis yet.


Bottom line is the tech trade sponsors rolled over, yours all spiffed your jobs right up and made you all sound special.

There is only one left and you can't have it as someone else might need it!
Note, I don't include medics in this.....

But hey, we are all one team. Purple in colour, soldier first, now go and get the latest beep test done.

[adminblunty]

The reality of this situation is having two rigid pay scales for airmen doesn't allow flexibility to differentiate salary packages for differing trades. However there is no money and no appetite to do anything about it, it'll cost too much, austerity, etc. It has not helped that the work of some trades has evolved because of technological advances and political and economic influences. Low value work undertaken by some trades 25-10 years ago has been contractorised/civilianised and generally the work left over has a higher value and importantly attracts a higher score under JSJET. In essence the lesser trades have caught up as stackers don't work in clothing stores anymore, shineys don't run post rooms and registries, the cashier has probably been civilianised, TCOs have become IT nerds etc etc. Increasingly there are a number of niche high value roles being filled by airmen in a range of trades hence the shift. The old perceptions of the worth of a trade seem to be stuck firmly in the past.



LJ

Re HR Business Partners are board level, I'm a HR Director now and I can assure you they aren't, that is my role. I see Air Cmd are advertising for a HR BP at the moment, it is grade B2 (Gp Capt). You are right though, you do need a MSc, however a number of my shiney colleagues understood that and cracked on and did it(three of on my course alone)(thank you ELC), none of us have looked backed.

[Selatar]

The thread was actually about numbers dropping below the 2010 33k mark and showing signs of falling further but trade politics obviously (and rightly) somewhat emotive. Some valid points and who knows, maybe NEM has the answers....