Back to the future (3 ULR's)

[falconeasydriver]

Back to the good old days? Bueller? Bueller? :E

Discuss as to the reasons why :}

[fliion]

I'm on the road and just had a fly by look....are there other gotchas in that FCI?

f.

[emratty]

The change brought about because of the 380 ULR. With most N American destination going to the 380 in the next 18 months there is going to be a serious amount of ULR flying:zzz: If they give us 3 ULR hopefully the max 15 day off rule will have to go as they won't want to pay overtime.
I live in hope that they let the roster and bidding system work like in the good old days of the 340-500 ULR!

[BigGeordie]

No more days off, just lots of AVBL I expect.

[whossorrynow]

Lets see. 3 x JFK with SBU = 79+ hours and 12 days of work, 3 crew of course. Add 2 x night BOM = another 11 hours and 4 days of work. Add a PPC/ RTGS/ Handling Sim/ CRM/ SEP and I think the 15 day rule may just stay with us. Maybe they'll reduce it to 12 days.

They'll use the 3 x ULR for people with a few days of leave to max the hours.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Information is not correct. We don't do any ULR's.

[Outatowner]

No ULRs at all? Did they all disappear or were they shot down??? :uhoh:

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Outatowner- No Mana is just bleating because he is not EK and this is referring to EK but the thread did not say so.

The new FCI now allows for 3 ULRs, in the past - only 2 were allowed per month. When the 380 started ops with EK (with only JFK) there was a temporary FCI permitting 3 ULR per month, but it was only ever meant to be temporary until more 380 destinations were brought online.

Now, it seems, that is to be the norm :ugh::ugh:

[SOPS]

And once again our T and C are lowered.

[fliion]

Still trying to get my head around extension...this "factored " thing is confusing.

As predicted not in our favor...with absolutely no background information in plain English to disseminate & explain.

Completely unprofessional.

f.

[fliion]

Thanks for explaining Jj, never said I was smart...confused ? Reading the OMA Yup.

f.

[Trader]

Or was it re-written because too many captains simply tried to burn out the FO so they could get some extra kip?

Solution to that is simple--you get burned out then you need a seat in the back once your duty is over so make sure one is held for you if they do it.

Flew with MANY fo's recently who have been through this.

[CamelRustler]

As EK continues to add flexibility to its scheduling ability while our schedules continue to worsen. There are some very simple things EK could do to not only improve our quality of life but our increase our life spans. Last week my schedule was flipped from day to night duty 5 times. 6 months this year I have had 8 days off. I have worked every month with 7 days in a row followed by a single day off. I have dozens of fewer days off a year than office staff who work 9-3. They are squeezing the life out of us with this obscene scheduling. Not about ULRs I know, but needed to rant just the same.

[glofish]

Guys, the "burn-out" policy applies to specific pairings only. They need to be specified by an FCI and right now there is only one pairing mentioned.
Not one to the NAM! Any FO accepting burn-out on such sectors is acting against the OM-A!

[Modesh]

We were told by the company that the 2 ULR rule was brought in by the company to reduce fatigue and time zone exposure.

I'm guessing now they can't roster the 380 guys, that suddenly ULR's and time zone exposure have become less tiring and fatiguing. Must be something to do with the excellent bunks in the 380.

3 Crew normal FTL's

To be clear the operating crew need a minimum of three hours rest to extend duty. The Augment guy doesn't need three but should be given equal if possible.. i.e over 3 hours for all pilots.

So going to PVG the augmenter may only get 2:20 hr.. as flight time is not long enough for all crew to have three hours.

Coming back all should get the same as long as its over three hours each.

Capt's should know the rules and not try this on!
F/O's should know the rules as well and not allow Capts to burn them out.

Burn out is only used one flight Lusaka-Harare. (see FCN)

Thats how I see it.

Suggestions?

[Capt. Flamingo]

3 crew normal FTL,

It just says total in flight rest of 3 hours and it doesn't specify only for operating crew. And the 3 hours rest is to be able to extend the FDP to either max of 18 or 15 hrs (depending on crc availability or not), if the planned duty is already inside the normal FDP then there is no real need to get the 3 hours rest.

The only part where it specifically says 3 hours for operating crew is in the burnout policy which, as stated earlier, is only on approved pairings (Lusaka-Harare being the only approved so far).

[CamelRustler]

Lusaka Harare has been operated as a two man crew (Which is obscene.) for quite some time now. So even the "burn out policy" does not apply to any current flights. This trip was horrific with 3 crew members.

[PositiveRate876]

Burn out is only used one flight Lusaka-Harare. (see FCN)
The Lusaka-Harare trip is now operated as 2 crew.
In which case both get burned out during the long night.

[fliion]

The 3 man crew Non ULR Rest Strategy Card is in CH2 pg 58 South East Asia route brief.

Nothing to do with three hours each...it is equal rest.

Agreed, Burn out for FCN mentioned pairing ie HRE only at moment.

f.

[Schnowzer]

The original rules are here: http://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication/_layouts/GCAA/ePublication/DownloadFile.aspx?Un=/en/epublication/admin/Library%20Pdf/Civil%20Aviation%20Advisory%20Publication%20(CAAP)/CAAP%2014%20ULR.pdf

They are adapted by "FRMS- A scientifically based data-driven flexible alternative to prescriptive flight and duty time limitations"

So clearly there must be some science attached to factoring, the move to 3 ULRs a month and 3 man crews!

[Capt. Flamingo]

I wasn't talking about PER, just trying to make a point, sorry to disappoint you Jihad.

Followed your advice of reading again and still can't see where it says 3 hours for OPERATING CREW under the extension of a fdp section...

[Jihad Jim]

Flam,Flion etc

Ive deleted my contirbution and left the reason below


Any more feedback will enter the ether. I really dont give a f@ck for willful ignorance or obstinance.

JJ

[fliion]

Clear as mud down to JJ.

Good riddance.

f.

[Modesh]

Hi CF and F ,

Just trying to see where you are coming from.

Are you saying that unless all 3 crew get three hours then the duty can't be extended?

And on flights where it is not possible for all three crew to get three hours then extension is not required anyway? I.e going to PVG, ICN etc

The FDP guidelines under ref/pubs (on the portal front page) seem to suggest you may be right. (version 2 9 jan 2014)

Extension of FDP
a. In-Flight Relief
An additional flight crew member can be carried to provide in-flight relief with the intent of extending the MAX Allowable FDP. The division of duty and rest must be kept balanced between the flight crew members.
The FDP shall only be extended if the total in-flight rest exceeds 3 hours for each flight crew member. The rest is not required to be consecutive.

Standing by for incoming...JJ be nice

[kingpost]

Jihad Jim you've hit the nail on the head - spot on with your analysis.

The FCI states that if circumstances permit……..., the operating crew still need a minimum of 3 hours rest in order to extend the FDP!!

[Capt. Flamingo]

Thanks modesh, that is pretty much what I was trying to point out/inquire or begging to put me out of my ignorance since Jihads posts still don't quite answer the question.

Not trying to start a pissing match with anyone, and I agree with most of the Jihad's posts.

It's obvious that the operating crew have the upper hand with the rest, so, why not write it in plain English? "The operating crew must ensure to have 3 hours rest in order to extend the FDP with a third pilot etc, etc etc" or something like that.

The burnout policy is very clear saying Capt and FO, but the extension of a FDP is not and even the fci doesnt specify operating crew.

Take a chill pill Jihad, we are all on the same team

[fliion]

And here in lies the rub that apparently we all don't get that Jihad J does..

When it comes to the new 7.7.1.3

"Provided that the total in-flight rest available is 3 hours or greater, the FDP can be extended as below. Rest can be taken in separate, non- consecutive periods."

So the above mentions rest with no reference to the individual pilot ...could that be construed as collective rest? Per RAIG CH2 pg 58

BUT when it comes to burnout policy in the new FCI it specifically mentions the individual pilot

"The Commander shall ensure that the First Officer and himself avail of a minimum of 3 hours rest (which need not be consecutive) prior to standing down the augmenting crew member."

Clear as mud again.

As I said before ...completely unprofessional of Fleet to send this FCI without any background and common sense explanation to those of us not Barristers at Law like our Jihadi buddy.

I just want to know in plain English WTF is going on.

Too much to ask.

Apparently

f.

[inono]

Q.3. What is the difference between the BURN OUT POLICY and the 3 PILOT NON-ULR REST STRATEGY? And

to which pairing is the BURN OUT POLICY currently applied?

A.3. Specific pairings authorised by DSVP-FO may be augmented by an additional flight crew member for the

purpose of extending the FDP. These specific parings should have the burn out policy applied to the augmenting

crew member. Burn out policy currently applied to Harare-Lusaka-Dubai sector only, as per currently effective FCN

2012-001, part of aircraft documentation. All other 3 man crew operations i.e those to the far east, should adhere as

closely as possible to the rest strategy as determined in the RAIG, section 2.6.1, i.e equal inflight rest for all 3 crew

members.

Reference: OM-A 7.7.1.3, FCN 2012-001 & RAIG 2.6.1

[inono]

Extension of FDP

a. In-Flight Relief An additional flight crew member can be carried to provide in-flight relief with the intent of extending the MAX Allowable FDP. The division of duty and rest must be kept balanced between the flight crew members.

The FDP shall only be extended if the total in-flight rest exceeds 3 hours for each flight crew member. The rest is not required to be consecutive.

For rest in a bunk: Half the total rest taken can be added to the MAX allowable FDP; on condition that the MAX FDP does not exceed 18 hours

For rest in a seat: One third the total rest taken can be added to the MAX allowable FDP; on condition that the MAX FDP does not exceed 15 hours

[ekwhistleblower]

I just want to know in plain English WTF is going on.

Ok here goes:

In my non-pilot or pilot never flown more than twice a month opinion, you guys get too much time off and we are struggling for pilots. I am an expert on fatigue and always feel refreshed and ready for work on arrival after 14 hours in First Class so don't see what you are whining about.

If you fly 3 ULRs a month, with only 3 pilots on each, we can save money in 3 ways:
1. fewer crew to pay
2. reduced recruitment costs
3. reduced medical and welfare costs due to fatigue and early death.

The only way for you to change the situation is through ASRs and fatigue reporting (when justified) but we are confident that most of you are such pussies that you won't do it. In fact, in the unlikely event our hubris has screwed the operation, we are certain you weenies will go the extra mile to help out.

Standby for the new 4 ULR, 2 crew rules and free coffin on retirement! (If you elect for cremation, the Stealey Wheelie can double up)

Love, The Management

How's that?

[helen-damnation]

So going to PVG the augmenter may only get 2:20 hr.. as flight time is not long enough for all crew to have three hours.

AFAIK the outbound PVG sector does not need to be augmented. Therefore, it's an even split! Augmenter is for the return sector.

[blacklist]

If you operate back from far east with 2 crew only, you'll be unaclimatised and need to apply factored sectors as per OM-A 7.9.3 Limits on Two Flight Crew Long Range Operations
3 crew means no factored sectors and normal FDP = 11:30 iso 09:45 for 2
If flight time is more than 10h, each crew will get at least 3h and FDP can be extended, if not, we are not limited so no need to extend anything.
Keep it in balance in any case

[canadansk]

Wrong. JJ was correct. Only the operating crew MUST get 3 hours in order to extend. IF the flight is long enough then all crew will get 3+ equally.

[Heritage 1]

Helen D is right, with reference to the flights like PVG and ICN, the outbound flight from DXB does not need to be augmented, and until not so long ago the augmenting crew was always deadheaded there as pax. It is the return leg that requires augmenting.

[canadansk]

H 1 is also correct. Outbound I share equally irregardless of the trip length because augment is technically not required in that direction (eastbound).

[Trader]

I agree as well. The only issue I have is if the FO does not get 3 hours then he may duty out. In which case he should have a seat in the back reserved for him.

I've always had empty seats and sent him back but I don't think most captains even consider this.

[Modesh]

Gents from the FDP guidelines

Crew portal front page
> Ref/Publications
> FDP Guidelines (9th Jan 2014)

Extension of FDP
a. In-Flight Relief
An additional flight crew member can be carried to provide in-flight relief with the intent of extending the MAX Allowable FDP. The division of duty and rest must be kept balanced between the flight crew members.
The FDP shall only be extended if the total in-flight rest exceeds 3 hours for each flight crew member. The rest is not required to be consecutive.

b. Burnout Policy
The policy is applied when an additional flight crew member is added to a pairing for the purpose of extending the FDP as an augmenting flight crew member and the sector length will not allow a minimum of 3 hours of rest for each flight crew member.

Seems you can't extend unless all three get three hours??

The point (others are making) is that the third pilot is added in most cases to alleviate the 7.9.3 "limits on two crew long range ops" and not to extend the FDP.

I.e. the flight can't be done legally two crew because of above "2 crew long range ops" but is not long enough for the requirement to extend duty.

Eg You can go to and back from KIX three crew legally without the need to Extend duty. Three crew from KIX-DXB allowable FDP is 11:30 and planned FDP 11:10. As there is no need to extend the duty then no need to have three hours rest although in this case you would probably get over three hours each anyway. If you divert it would be covered by discretion.

So there is a suggestion that as duty is not required to be extended that the rest should be split equally and if its less than 3 hours each then so be it. The operating crew do not require 3 hours as extension is not legally required or planned.

Any flight where the duty is required to be extended I.e PER will be of sufficient flight time for all three crew members to get at least three hours and so you can legally extend the duty as required.

Thoughts?

M

[Silky]

Wow...so simple made so difficult!

Operating crew need 3 hours rest or more to extend fdp. If flight time is sufficient then the relief crew can also have 3, if insufficient priority is given to operating crews. :cool:

It seems its only the newbies who haven't operated this before who want to read this differently as it effects them as the relief crew!

No 3 hours rest for "A" crew, no extension of FDP! :ugh:

Not rocket science!

[Modesh]

Silky

With respect you maybe missing the point.

The point is most of these flights do not legally require the extension of Duty by rest.

They only require three crew to avoid the two crew long range ops limit.

Three crew ex DXB at 2am can do an 11:00 FDP (Un-extended so to speak)

Check the table 7.6.2.1

Going to ICN planned FDP is 9:10.

So rest should be equal and will be less than three hours as extension is not required.

Any flight that needs extension by rest will have to have an FDP over 11:00 e.g. PER and the flight time will be long enough for all crew members to get at least three hours each.

??????

[Silky]

Point not missed...no extension required then...so not any issue.

Return sector depending on winds may require the 3rd man to remain legal, it's not new....this has been done for PER, west Africa and even PEK in winter time.

I see why JJ opted out of this, simple, the operating Capt on the day makes the decision as the accountable manager. If the relief guy is unhappy then file an ASR.
Ciao
:ugh:

[Modesh]

Silky I wasn't having a pop.

On the return three Crew (Unextended) can do depending on layover rest (18-30 hr rule) either 11:30 or 13:00
FDP.

Even coming back from KIX the FDP is planned as 11:10 there is no need to extend Duty by rest.

And if the flight time back from KIX was 11:35 with strong winds then every crew member would have over three hours anyway so extension is possible.

In summary the rest should normally be split equally as suggested in the fci.

[Silky]

If insufficient time exists, then only the "A" crew get the full rest to legally extend. After that its a mute point..do what ever fills your boots!

P.S. Not having a pop back either just debating the point!

[blacklist]

I suggest all augmenting crew forced to take less than balanced rest to file an ASR so we know for good what the company wants.
Apparently one FCI is not enough to get rid of the I always did like this attitude.

[glofish]

Irrespective of all the profound knowledge of the OM-A and FCN etc, irrespective of the sleep management of skippers and the happiness of his FOs, we all agree that the FDPs are borderline when it comes to safety and that some airlines around here
are using them not as limits, but as guidelines.

In that respect it might make some sense to complain on these pages, as to raise awareness of colleagues, because the companies try to keep things very quiet!

There are however by far not enough reports made, by a factor 5 at least.

It is the only legal tool to try to improve things. On each and every flight where crew feel fatigued due to rostering and FTL, there needs to be an ASR and a fatigue report filed.
It's in our all interest, including SLF.

At least here there are no harassments to be feared, so go for it.

[Outatowner]

"Not in our favour"?? I haven't even read the fkn FCI and I can tell you it's not in our favour, bloke. No need for a frigging crystal ball to "predict" that!

In my nearly 15 years here there has been very little change in our favour and the last two years have been a particular pinch so I don't know why you fellas are even bothering to analyse this change. So much wasted breath - you KNOW it's detrimental to us and beneficial to the company before you even read it. So why bother?

Just take your extra fuel, fly at max speed and use full reverse and then you can sleep a little better when you get to the hotel. And for dog's sake stop reading all that garbage they send out!

[fatbus]

Totally agree with Outatowner!

[jack schidt]

To me this is as a result of not being able to recruit enough pilots of the right quality, not enough pilots = make the workforce work harder..... simple!

[The Zohan]

I really don't understand the whole point. If the augmenting pilot can't get his 3 hours rest it means that the flight is to short to need any extension of FDP anyway. No change from what we always did.

Let's now discuss about what's heavier, 1 kg of lead or 1 kg of hay...

tz

[Modesh]

Mr Zohan,

The point is many capts (including myself (See my first post 16)) were (are) taking three hours rest along with the operating F/O and giving the Augment pilot less (2:20), believing this the correct way to operate these flights. Eg DXB-PVG

If duty is not required to be extended by rest (most are not) then the rest should normally be split equally as suggest by the FCI. (nobody needs three hours)

Any flight (Duty) which is required to be extended by rest will be of sufficient length for all crew members to get at least three hours.

Basically rest should always be equal for three crew members on all flights.

If you as capt want to change it (reduce the rest for augment guy) on the day to increase safety (Operating crew more rested, which makes sense) then feel free to do so but it should be documented (Maybe) and should be agreed by all crew members.

Thats how I see it (today), but i'm open to being corrected.

[AirTaxiDriver]

This is not the way you should do it... this is the way the court will read it... in case of accident or incident....
Guys, there are rules and definitions, it is not up to EK to make them, but the authority asking you to apply them!....

All those rules apply to CREW MEMBERS, whatever "Augmenting" or "Operating"... read your books!
This is the case for the 3hrs rule!