Political Correctness Trumps Warrior Spirit

[Boudreaux Bob]

This is but one example of how Political Correctness is destroying the US Military.

Any hint of an Alcohol related "Sin" and it is Endex for one's Military Career these days.

No how minor or limited, if Command becomes aware of something and you might as well pack up your Sea Bag and start looking for a civvies job.

This is not a good thing at all.


Wasting the Warrior Culture: The Story of Frank ? The Havok Journal (http://www.havokjournal.com/military/recon-marine-wasting-warrior-culture)

A second example.

http://allenbwest.com/2014/08/letter-army-major-received-pink-slip/

[Basil]

I recollect when the legal drink & drive limit (1967) and the breathalyser (1968) were introduced in the UK we, in the RAF, were warned that a conviction would result in court martial and dismissal.

Eventually a group captain (colonel) paid the price. Certainly made the rest of us take it all a bit more seriously.

[walter kennedy]

Going back a bit, I seem to remember that drinks and smokes were a part of the military culture (for a start, you don't know what some are really like until you have been with them drunk) - come to think of, how much has the culture in general changed for the (once) Anglo/Celtic peoples? Do you remember any debate, let alone referendum, on say multiculturalism? On the drink issue, if not in a pub, where is the forum for the average bloke to communicate his ideas/concerns, etc?
You make get a jolt from the extremely PC case of "Frank", but what have you to say about, say, the emphasis on womens' and gays' rights while the average young Brit cannot look forward to having a stable family and enough kids to counter the negative birth rate his kind is facing?
You think you are defending your country? - look around ... start drinking and communicating with your mates ... stop the rot.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I was told of a function at xxx, early 1980's, where the first to depart by car, somewhat the worse for wear, noted a Police car waiting at the junction with the A road. Discretion prompted him to reverse his tracks, only to note another Police car waiting at the other end of the village at the junction with the other A road. He reversed again, returned to the function, and mentioned this curiosity to the President of the Mess Committee. Who mentioned it to the local Chief Inspector of Police, who had been invited. Twenty minutes later,the Police cars were gone.

Have you stopped inviting the local Sherriff to events? ;)

[Hangarshuffle]

Alcohol can destroy many things more precious than a career.


If you have a drink problem (and if you are stupid enough to get caught over the limit behind a wheel you have a problem) then do everyone a favour and get out of the forces.

[Boudreaux Bob]

My take on this is a single mistake of a relatively minor nature should not stop a Career in the Military.

I recall the "Good Old Days" when Officer's Call was conducted at the Mess Bar Happy Hour on Friday at 1700 Hrs. No one left until the CO departed. If he was a Lush then he set the Tone for the "Meeting".

In those days when we were either just back from a Combat Tour or about to Go on one, an "Alcohol Offense" would merit a Hat On-No Coffee Chat with the Boss Fellah. Afterwards, one would lick One's Wounds in the Bar.

It is the intolerance and excessiveness of the PC Movement that is offends me. That, and the Military Leadership willingly going along with it.

We need Warriors and not Parade Ground Soldiers.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Wasn't it an American who said "No Combat Ready outfit ever passed Inspection, and no Inspection Ready outfit ever passed Combat?"

[MPN11]

I do not wish to trivialise Boudreaux Bob's inputs ... they are indeed a sad indictment of the way things have gone since I first put on a uniform in '63.

My Father was in conversation with a colleague shortly after I joined the RAF, and apprised him of the fact. The response was, "Ah, The Drinking Service". OK, I was a Ground Pounder, but it was fairly endemic everywhere I went ... and was undoubtedly was a factor in a one-sided interview (along with others) after a small toilet-roll fire in the Officers Mess Bar ceiling fans in 1968.

Do I blame the RAF for my predilection for alcohol? Was it too cheap? Was it the "Culture"? Am I weak, and easily led down the path of depravity? Probably all of the above, actually ... but there were only a few other minor, unrecorded/unknown incidents of "Stupid Boy" over the subsequent 3 decades.

I did my job well, got promoted often enough to satisfy me, and seemed to survive my occasional excesses. Of course, it's a different world these days.

Excuse me ... I need to refill my glass. :cool:

[charliegolf]

I recall one squadron commander's drinking faux pas in RAFG. His punishment was to be relieved of his command. And get posted to Hong Kong!

Ain't life a pi55er.

CG

[Stendec5]

We've had several years now of this "politically correct" vomit. One wonders what its proponents envisage as the end result. In my opinion it can only be
the destruction of western civilisation because it turns all the values by which we built our western nations upside down.
This insideous disease poses a direct threat to the west and, as such should no longer be tolerated. It should be bracketed as a direct threat to western survival alongside international terrorism.
"PC" has the effect of paralyzing its victims. You can do nothing to protect yourself, your family, your culture, your heritage, lest somebody somewhere be "offended." Bit by bit, like a creeping slime it extinguishes all vigour
until all that will remain will be a "1984" type mass of controlled drones.

"PC" is evil. Pure and simple. Its aims are evil. Its destination is evil.

Fight it at every turn.

[500N]

Stendec

Very nicely put, totally agree.

As much as I don't like DUI, to can someone for a transgression a few years back
but with a very good record since does seem short sighted and harsh.

[West Coast]

Funny this about PC is that it feeds upon itself in a building block method. Those in uniform in 20 years will look back at today and remark on the reletive freedoms we have to step on the willy and survive from a career standpoint.

[alfred_the_great]

"PC" is evil. Pure and simple. Its aims are evil. Its destination is evil.

Yes, because stopping people calling people niggers and sacking pregnant women is evil

[West Coast]

You have one helluva wide ranging definition of PC to apply it to that Alfred.

[alfred_the_great]

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a contentious term that today commonly refers to enforced language, ideas, or policies that address perceived discrimination against political, social or economical groups ("protected classes"). These groups most prominently include those defined by gender, race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age and disability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness (Political correctness by wikipedia)

This is what the internet thinks "PC" is. Lots of people who don't actually have the balls to explain why they think something should be the case, so they throw out "because PC", a bit like "because 'elf'n'safety" to mask their case.

In this case, a good shot broke the UCMJ enough to be busted in rank and is now not being retained. Whilst there is a fine line between a zero-defect culture and something like this, I'd suggest that for maintenance of good order and discipline it was an appropriate decision. Leadership isn't a popularity contest.

[Stanwell]

Hangarshuffle,

Fine. Yes. But, did you really read between the lines in that Havok Journal article, though?

One lesson I learned from my years in the military is that they will chew you up and then spit you out when you're no longer any good to them.
Many of my mates still have ongoing problems as a result of what they had to do - and cope with - while doing the bidding of slimy politicians.

We are still fighting for justice and the proper recognition of what active service can do to some who were formerly more than sound of body and mind.

Have you ever, in your life, failed to live up to the expectations of others when under post-traumatic stress?

Or, haven't you been there?

[500N]

alfred

Yes, he broke the UCMJ, got charged, got busted (punished), did his redemption and served his time but is now being punished again.

At the start of the article it says that he has reached his limit in that rank but I gather can't be promoted, partly because he has spent so long on active service.


Seriously, how many of us have served in one way or another and not
trod on our dicks at one point, resulting in either a meeting "hats on,
no tea or coffee" up to maybe a charge ? I somehow doubt that every
senior person has a totally unblemished record.

I know troops would prefer to follow a person who might not be perfect
and has the odd blemish but who know WTF he is doing.

Just my HO.

[alfred_the_great]

It's the way US Forces do it, "up and out". It also applies to Officers, and to anyone who doesn't promote quickly enough. Tough for Frank, but he is not being victimised per se.

[Pontius Navigator]

For those of us at the fore front of the DON'T DRINK and drive with compulsory dining in nights that too was a career stopper.

In the 70s and 80s you were still expected to drink wisely :) rather than not at all.

[Dengue_Dude]

Nothing new here (doesn't make it right, just no surprise).

Just think how our 'hero' Churchill treated the members of Bomber Command. They carried out his wishes, but when it became expedient, he cut them free.

It took over 50 years for a monument to a Command that sustained roughly 45% losses. Most of the survivors had died (naturally thank God), before justice was seen to be done. The power of PC (before it was called that of course).

So Political Correctness? It'll be with us for as long as (inadequate IMHO) folks can use it when it suits them.

They'll criticise and destroy the very people we need when the chips are down and bleat like stuck pigs when there is nobody to do their dirty, wet work.

Watch this space, because this Islamic extremism is coming 'home' to roost and we'll need these pariahs to sort out the mess.

[alfred_the_great]

Really? Really, really?

Anyway, what a US Marine thinks about this kind of case

A Marine officer who also had a career stopper responds to Major Slider's letter (http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/08/12/a_marine_officer_who_also_had_a_career_stopper_responds_to_m ajor_sliders_letter)

This sums up his attitude:

I always reminded myself that it was I, not the Marine Corps, who had failed. Serving the Marine Corps was an honor the Marine Corps bestowed on me... it was not an honor that I bestowed on the Marine Corps. The permission and right to wear the Marine uniform was a privilege bestowed on me by the Corps, not some deserved privilege that I had acquired through my own self-absorption. Whether I served one year or twenty years, the honor I had to serve was not a sacrifice, it was an honor that was bestowed on me, and I will always owe a tremendous debt to the Corps for having taught me to be better then I believed myself capable, even if I didn't get to serve as I might have wished.

[smujsmith]

Dengue Dude,

Spot on sir, and when it does come here, PC will not help us in any way. In a world where factual history has to be written out to comply with such policy, there's no surprise that modern governments are totally bereft of any respect.

Smudge

[teeteringhead]

I recall one squadron commander's drinking faux pas in RAFG. His punishment was to be relieved of his command. And get posted to Hong Kong!

Posted to Honkers on promotion CG IIRC.....

....... and subsequently promoted again, to retire as a one-star .........

[melmothtw]

Do you remember any debate, let alone referendum, on say multiculturalism?



I see you're posting from Perth, Walter. I'm assuming you're not aboriginal, in which case you'll forgive me if I p1ss myself laughing at you complaining about multiculturalism and immigration.

If you are aboriginal, I apologise.

[woptb]

It seems to me there are two arguments being conflated,soldiers whose service is no longer required due to issues with alchohol (I do not judge) and political correctness in the armed forces.
These seem, to me at least, seperate issues.Its always been the way that 'between wars' warriors services are less useful, as Kipling said;

"O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play"

When we don't need as many soldiers we get rid,very harsh and the decisions should be based on ?

As for the PC bit, its wheeled out to decry almost anything.I believe in political correctness,fairness,the human rights act & truth & justice !

[500N]

I believe in political correctness,fairness,the human rights act & truth & justice !

That's why people differ in opinions !

I believe in 3 of the above.

[Flash2001]

There is somewhere a speech by Lord Brabazon of Tara I read some years ago pointing out that a number of people who had probably been social misfits came up trumps in the Battle of Britain.

I thought of Tommy Atkins as I read the first entry in this thread.

[woptb]

I believe in 3 of the above.

Fess up,which 3 !!

[Stendec5]

If the Pals Battalions of WW1 could see Dewsbury, Oldham, Rochdale, et al today they would quite literally wonder what country they were in.

Madhouse Britain...

Blackboard = "chalkboard"
Vicious thug = "differently moraled"
Manhole = "person hole"

How about err, "Personchester United"

Or err, "Postperson Pat, Postperson Pat, Postperson Pat
And his vertically challenged, multicoloured feline quadruped"

Come on children. Sing along...

[500N]

Fess up,which 3 !!

woptb

You obviously don't read my other posts on PPRuNe.

Take out PC and HR.

[SOSL]

There is no such rank as " group captain (colonel)"......

[Hangarshuffle]

I always thought the RAF had an even higher alcohol dependency than the RN, and that's saying something. Based on my first hand observations of 617 Sqn on detachment in Deci in the 90's (bunch of arseholes), RAF Shawbury (a training unit that had its own bar next to the kids classrooms....) and many more...the antics of a certain EAW I also saw comes back to mind.
The RN was very little better. RM markedly worse at times, what I saw of them.
I tried to find the link about what the coroner suggested to MOD in this case here, was in the papers, cant find it now. This is old news.


Royal Navy warship crews face breath tests under new rules - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9950986/Royal-Navy-warship-crews-face-breath-tests-under-new-rules.html)


Yep hate to be the killjoy but the sooner the better, really. Duty Watch (on a ship berthed abroad alongside) musters were always interesting. Most of the young people who I had to brief, issue firearms etc were good as gold, sober and alert, but out of 8 or 10 there was always 1 or 2 who rocked up worse for wear from alcohol.


That culture has to come to an end. Its not pc-ness gone too far, simply better management, better standards being maintained.

[brakedwell]

I always thought a Chair was designed for sitting on, not running things :}

[Nervous SLF]

There is somewhere a speech by Lord Brabazon of Tara I read some years ago pointing out that a number of people who had probably been social misfits came up trumps in the Battle of Britain.




This could also apply to this chap:- George Frederick "Buzz" Beurling DSO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Service_Order), DFC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Flying_Cross_%28United_Kingdom%29), DFM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Flying_Medal) & Bar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_bar), RAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force) & RCAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Air_Force) (6 December 1921 – 20 May 1948)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I always thought a Chair was designed for sitting on, not running things

I've been to many "Joint" meetings where the sitting down apparatus has been far more useful than the "chair".

I'm curious about when enjoying a few wets with your mates and comrades becomes labelled as "alcohol dependency"? Is it all treated the same now? I think many of the new age calvinists out there wouldn't recognise the difference if it bit them on the bum.

[nutnurse]

GBZ with any luck the Chair might bite them on the bum, subject to an elfin safety magical risk assessment of course.

It was refreshing to note the civilised tone of Alfred's link, whether the reader agrees or disagrees, when discussing a serious topic after the misspelt and paranoid redneckery of many posters on the earlier links. I say this even though I loath the facile assumptions of political correctness or, as such things were called when I was a sprog, priggishness. (At least in these threads there were no references to lizards in high places or to abduction by extra-terrestials, for which I suppose we should be thankful.)