RAF WSOp (AIRCREW) jumps course?

[RAF WSOp]

Hello all first time poster here. I am wondering if anyone can answer do WSOp's in the RAF do a basic parachute course as part of their training? If so do they earn the right to wear parachute wings or light bulb badge as I've heard some guys in TCW/TSW do.


Cheers

[Captain Radar....]

The answers are no, they don't, and therefore no, they don't.

[Wensleydale]

I believe that allowing aircrew to land by parachute risked far too many serious injuries and therefore a potential loss of a large training investment. However there used to be a less risky course available for aircrew which involved a parachute drop from a Herc into Poole Harbour - this was cancelled some years ago for cost saving, although I was told that this was just a drop in the ocean!

[minigundiplomat]

The thing about training aircrew is.... you'd kind of like them to see the whole mission through.

[chopper2004]

Are you thinking of the NCO WsOP / aircrewman thimajig and comparing / confusing it to what the USAF Parajumper Specialists - PJs do as they have to go through jump school at Fort Benning (equivalent of our 'P' Company , Parachute Regiment) as part of their training ?

Cheers

[ancientaviator62]

Loadmasters used to do a short para course as part of their basic training.
It was discontinued in the late 1980's.

[charliegolf]

All Loadie trainees who successfully completed the 'movements and loading' bit of the training did the jumps, irrespective of their subsequent posting to fixed wing or rotary.

In my case, we did the same course as Paras who had progressed through P Coy (I think) successfully; but we left after the first 2 jumps. The first was from a balloon, the second from a Herc. Both 800 feet.

Because only 2 jumps were completed, then of course no para wings were awarded.

CG

(I think it was stopped on cost grounds as much as safety, along with the fact that the vast majority by then were going rotary anyway.)

[Tankertrashnav]

The Poole Harbour course had its equivalent in the Far East in the 60s with a drop into the Johore Strait off Changi, from an Argosy as I recall. I applied for the course, but there was a long waiting list and I got posted away before my name came up.

We had a crew abandonment trainer at Marham where we practised jumping out of a Victor onto a rubber mat. Fortunately I never needed to put these skills into practice, as the statistics for successful rear-crew abandonments from all of the "Vs" were not good, to say the least!

[Sand4Gold]

All Loadie trainees

The female Loadies in the 80's must of been a tough bunch? :p

[charliegolf]

Oo-er, unreconstituted MCP thinking there!

And they were a tough bunch! Mo, Leanne, Ronda and 2 others whose names escape me were on my (93) AAITC and loadie bit. And they were a good bunch too.

CG

[charliegolf]

successful rear-crew abandonments from all of the "Vs" were not good, to say the least!

I was aware of that TTN, but what would you say the success rate was in a viable abandonment? By that I mean, orders given and within the abandonment envelope; not oo-er, it's coming apart NOW!

CG

[Sand4Gold]

CG,

Not a MCP comment at all - I just cannot recall the girls doing the para course? Re your 'All Loadie trainees'...standing by to be corrected?

Although rotary was becoming the bias, the Para Course was ultimately two-fold, to undertake - at the time - Loadmaster/dispatch duties on a TS Sqn, and also to provide a degree of empathy with the parachutists, especially the refusals? I'm sure there was a character building argument soaked in there as well?

S4D

[ancientaviator62]

The requirement for the Trainee loadmasters to undertake a short course of parachute training was in response to the eminently reasonable demand by the army that anyone despatching paras had to have personal knowledge of the risks etc. The ladies did not 'cross over' to the Hercules until fairly late on by which time the jump requirement for the ALM had ceased. I was involved in the decision to cease ALM para training.

[Axel-Flo]

The Mini jumps course at Brize for ALM students had certainly stopped by about mid 85. That said I notice PJIs have started wearing the military parachutist badge....seems somewhat strange as in the past their qualification badge always used to be the Brevet with Parachute centred in the wreath..... Now they want to wear both.......

[Tiger_mate]

I was involved in the decision to cease ALM para training.

......and I got recoursed from the last course to do it (127 cse) [mid '86] to the first course that didn't (128 cse) and was the happiest failed student on the planet!

Jumping out of the balloon in particular brought with it stories of panic and horror. I did para dispatch from 10grand (in a Puma) with the Danish Jaeger Corps a few years later, and I can see the appeal of freefall, but for me: No thankyou; I sit firmly in the camp that only a fool will leave a serviceable aeroplane that does not have wheels/skids in contact with the ground.

Nowadays, some JHSS (RAF) MAOTs attached to 16 Air Assault do the jumps course and get the wings. They do not do P Company.

[P6 Driver]

That said I notice PJIs have started wearing the military parachutist badge....seems somewhat strange as in the past their qualification badge always used to be the Brevet with Parachute centred in the wreath..... Now they want to wear both.......

Perhaps they want to become the "3 Winged Master Race"...;)

On a serious point, is this because they feel wearing the Parachute Badge with wings on the right arm gives them more credibility that just the half wing on the chest for some reason?

(PS - Not having a pop at them for doing this, but it might be interesting to know why it happens)

[rock34]

I was under the impression that the PJI's who wear the two winged badge on the right arm do so because they have passed the relevant physical test ie either P Coy, Pre-Para or All Arms Commando.

This should also apply for the TCW / TSW / MAOTs. No physical course pass should mean the light bulb. Of course the majority haven't passed it and walt around pretending to be an airborne warrior.... :E

I know of only 1 RAF Regt member who has not passed any of the 3 above courses who has his wings, but then again he'd got to the end of selection.

[ksimboy]

Slightly pedantic point but isn't the PJI wing deemed an 'honorary flying badge' rather than a brevet as they have never undergone any form of aircrew training?

[Tankertrashnav]

I was aware of that TTN, but what would you say the success rate was in a viable abandonment? By that I mean, orders given and within the abandonment envelope; not oo-er, it's coming apart NOW!


A bit of trawling has come up with this thread from 2003 - some good stuff in it, including from the late lamented Art Field, with whom I flew on many occasions. I think half the problem was that given the acknowledged difficulties with rear-crew abandonment, the order to abandon would tend not to be given until, as you say, it was coming apart. An earlier, controlled abandonment might well have had better results, as was the case with the Vulcan which had an engine fire over Yorkshire, one of the very few instances where all five escaped more or less intact. Incidentally the pilot on that occasion had the misfortune to be in the LHS of the one that crashed at Luqa with less happy results.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/79080-vulcan-victor-question.html

[charliegolf]

S4G- it was me being the MCP by ignoring the girls in my first post! Agreed the empathy point, it was cited at the time.

CG

[Top Bunk Tester]

So at long last the PJIs are wearing a badge that the've actually earned, unlike the brevet which they found at the bottom of their cornflakes packet :ugh:

[MAD Boom]

Perhaps they want to become the "3 Winged Master Race"...

Some of us already are......:)

(Not with para wings though)

[Motleycallsign]

' Knowledge Dispels Fear' - yeah right!! I was frightened f@£tless on my first balloon descent, yay survived that and the Argosy jump that followed!!!

My first a/c despatch I had a foreign officer No 1 in stick: 'Stand in the door' all normal. 'RED ON' he takes 2 steps backwards ' Oh crap' thinks I first refusal already! As I lean forward to bring No 2 into his place lights go green and foreign gentleman runs past me and out of the Herc door, rest of stick leave as per plan, non of them clapped hands behind the ramp so phew we got away with that one.

[ValMORNA]

After completing training on the Valetta at Dishforth, 1952, we Air Signallers were required to take a 'mini-para' course at Abingdon prior to posting to squadrons. This involved all the preliminaries leading to a balloon jump, after which we received an Irvin parachute badge. Troop despatching was an integral part of our duties in the Suez Canal Zone, and we also attended a refresher course out there later.
Before the troops were at 'Stand in the Door' it was advisable to ensure your safety belt was attached as a keen 'jumper' might have wanted to hold your hand on the way down, also, on post-despatch all the strops had to be hauled in.
A recalcitrant jumper could always be helped by a well aimed boot on his posterior when he 'froze' in the door - and he would probably be grateful for the continuance of his career thereafter.

[Pontius Navigator]

The thing about training aircrew is.... you'd kind of like them to see the whole mission through.
Our V-force plotter was a bit of a nutcase like that. Applied for a course and was turned down. Went over the goo and got the course.

[ancientaviator62]

ValMORNA,
when I was despatching paras on Hastings I always liked to be on a crew with a big Signaller. This was so he could help pull in the para bags after the drop. The Hastings dropped at about safety speed with the inboards throttled back and as soon 'troops gone ' was called up went the inboards and the bags became very difficult to haul in.

[teeteringhead]

Most useful and (IMHO) relevant para-related training I ever got as a fully paid-up (rotary) member of the TWMR was with the USN.

On a trip to Pensacola, got a couple of trips in their T-6C, sort of a fat Tucano (never was much good at aircraft recce!). It didn't have bang seats, but used static line 'chutes, so it was back to the good old (sic) climb out and dive over the trailing edge.

Closing the general safety brief, the QFI said "Now we'll put you through the Sim!" :confused:

So Teeters was led into a hangar with a T-6C fuselage on top of (what seemed) a very high scaffold, with a circus-style safety net :eek: (what seemed) a long way below. I was beginning to work out what was going to happen.......

And so it was. Strapped in, then given the word (which wasn't "Jump John Jump!"), unstrapped, climbed out and dived over the trailing edge. Small jerk from the static line, then into the net. Bit like a bungee-jump sans bungee!

But a great confidence builder, and the closest I ever want to get to a caterpillar badge.... :ok:

[dragartist]

Contentious issue this- don't get confused with the water course. lots of aircrew and non aircrew (including MoD civillians like myself) did a three day course culminating in one drop into Studland or Falmouth using 22ft SSLs. Last course was probably 2003/4 when 22fts became in short supply and had a life of 10 drops into water. AB/SF Pol (Lt Col Parkinson decesed) declared anyone to jump required to pass P company first. I knew of some with TSW and a few Rocks had "entitlement to parachute" Unfortunatly with the shortage of frames, many were unable to meet the currency requirements. I guess many were in it for the additional few quid para pay. The Entilement to Parachute Annex was cut to less than a quater from what it was in 1999.

JATE ran a few trips to Jersey and Gib with the HOEU to have a splash. I belive the rationale in the earlier days was to give prospective Catterpillar club members the opportunity for a bit of training but into water so no broken bones. Safety cover was one boat per jumper in sticks of 6. The RM at Poole provided the support but like all things they were quite stretched. All good fun things come to an end.

[Tiger_mate]

The P Company mandate would have been a filter to erase 'badge collectors' for which there is a paranoia that remains extant. If you have a skill set that requires para insert within your portfolio being a P Company graduate is not necessarily a mandatory skill. Brown jobs cannot get into their grey matter that sometimes technical expertise far exceeds brawn. The list of such military skills would range from comms support to OP to battlefield photography etc etc and the 'best man for the job' may not have the youth or fitness to crack P Company, but that should not prevent him being the best man for the job. Happily in such cases single service direction is what it says on the tin.... Single service. There are plenty of other service types attached directly and indirectly to SF and 16 Air Assault.

[dragartist]

Spot on Tiger.
If it were essential to put even the most non millitary person on the ground and the only way is by parachute they could strap him/her to a PJI on a tandem chute. No different to they do most weekends all over the world for fun.

Far more cost effective then training all the badge collectors and keeping them current.

[ancientaviator62]

dragartist,
when I was at JATE there was an annual 'fun jump' at Studland using the 22 foot steerable. Some of the JATE civilian staff did it, at least one of whom did it more than once. No I never did it. Did my ALM qualifying jumps from an Argosy long before that. Any they needed me on the a/c in case there was a hang up ! Well that was my excuse. If anyone is interested as to why ALM para training ceased then I will relate my involvement in it.

[Sand4Gold]

aa62,

Yes please.

S4G

[Warmtoast]

I did the parachute course at Abingdon in June 1959 culminating in one balloon descent from 800ft.

A couple of photos taken by me at the time.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Abingdon/1PTSAbingdon1a.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Abingdon/1PTSAbingdon2.jpg

...and a Hastings returns from a drop at nearby Weston on the Green

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Abingdon/AbingdonHastingsLanding-Straightened_1280x794.jpg

[ksimboy]

Ah,the outdoor exit trainer (or was it the "knacker cracker") . Remember it well from my course at Brize in the early 80s , not sure which was worse, that or the comment of " it's just like stepping off the kerb " in the balloon basket at 800ft over Hullavington. Knew there was a reason I've disliked PJI's lol

[Tankertrashnav]

Does anyone remember going on a smaller version of the fan trainer which they used to set up at the old Schoolboy's and Schoolgirls' Exhibition which they had annually at Earls Court and other locations around the UK? (I used to go the one in the Kelvin hall in Glasgow). I think it was run by TA soldiers from the Parachute Regiment.

I remember queuing for ages to climb up the tower and then have an exciting descent back to ground level. It could only have been a quarter the height of the one in the photo, but it was scary enough when you were only ten!

[ancientaviator62]

Warmtoast,
classic pic of a Hastings returning from a para sortie. We rarely attempted replacing the ill fitting para doors in flight. It was too easy to lose one !


My story of how ALM para training ceased. In the mid 1980's I was the Chief Air Loadmaster Instructor (CALMI) on 242 OCU. I was ultimately responsible for the training and categorisation of all the Hercules ALMs via the ALM instructors on the OCU.. Not only did it involve flying on all the roles, route airdrop and tanking but it also had a huge 'clerking' element.
One day the boss dropped a file on my desk with a 'request' that I put it at the top of the Leaning Tower of Pisa pile of paper in my in tray.
The crux of this file was a paper written by No1 PTS recommending that ALM para training cease. Their argument was that the para commitment had reduced (reduction in army para numbers) to an extent that any future ABEX etc could be manned by PTS personnel. Thus the need to train Loadmasters as para despatchers no longer existed and substantial savings in money and training time could be achieved. These sort of statements are always welcome to the 'system'. Of course the obvious solution would have been a reduction in the numbers of PJIs ! Or hand all the para training over to the army !
I pointed out that one of the reasons that the ALM had been used as a paratroop despatcher was that after a drop the PJI became a passenger. Unless he could be repatriated back to base ASAP he was of no further use unless a para drop was organised away from base.
Actually my boss and I were both of the opinion that the decision had probably already been made and we were in the consultation loop merely as a matter of course. Money talks, especially if it is the saving of it.
One of the things that always perplexed me was that PJIs were allowed to retrain as ALMS up to the age of 30 (normal age cut off was 26 at the time).
So in my reply I recommended that one of the logical outcomes of the paper was that this anomaly be corrected.
And so it all came to pass.
It had little or no effect on the ALM branch, although a few diehards mourned it's passing. The ALM still flew on para sorties of course doing his normal duties and acting as the link between the captain and the despatchers but did not have any responsibility for the checking or despatching of the paratroopers.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I was under the impression that the PJI's who wear the two winged badge on the right arm do so because they have passed the relevant physical test ie either P Coy, Pre-Para or All Arms Commando.

This should also apply for the TCW / TSW / MAOTs. No physical course pass should mean the light bulb. Of course the majority haven't passed it and walt around pretending to be an airborne warrior....

Attendance of a 'pre-para course' has no impact on the type of parachute qualification badge worn.

A 'winged parachute' is worn by PJIs because they qualify as parachute trained in order to fill a parachute-trained role. This also applies to TCW/TSW/MAOT personnel, who will be put onto the parachute course in order to fill established posts within their various units.

If someone manages to get onto a parachute course who doesn't require the qualification to fulfil a post on their unit then they're awarded the 'lightbull'.

In short,

- Wings - Qualified in order to fill an established parachute post within their unit.
- Lightbulb - Qualified without an established parachute role.

On moving from an established parachute post personnel retain their wings.

Why do I know about all this? Well once upon a time I was dicked to attended Brize for the meat bomb course because,

- Some fool in the Army decided they wanted a CLA-trained stacker to be able to jump out of aircraft (even though the then in use CLA kit was packed full of items that would be unlikely to withstand an airdrop).
- The previous para-trained CLA was posted to a blue suit role.
- I was the youngest, fittest (?) CLA and, seemingly important, the shortest in post and therefore most easily dicked.

I passed the course but can't say I ever enjoyed getting off before reaching the terminal, it was a means to an end, no more. What I did find interesting though was the difference between the mentality of 'airborne' folks and commando trained (who I've also worked alongside with the CLR) to 'outsiders'. Airborne types seem to view attached personnel with suspicion and derision wheras commando-trained seem to recognise that you must there for a reason (having a skill they don't have) or else wouldn't be there, and as such treat attached personnel in a much more professional manner.

[nimbev]

Sorry Helpful Stacker - very interesting post, but could you plse elaborate on/explain/define TCW/TSW/MAOT and CLA/ CLR.

Thanks

[The Helpful Stacker]

nimbev - Sorry, TLA overdose.

TCW - Tactical Communications Wing. An RAF unit that provides, among other things, expeditionary airfield/aircraft coordination communications.

TSW - Tactical Supply Wing. An RAF unit that provides forward/tactical refuelling facilities to predominately battlefield helicopters.

MAOT - Mobile Air Operations Team. An RAF unit who provide ground-based command and control for various aspects of air ops.

CLA - Chemical Lab Assistant. The official title for personnel trained by QinetiQ/DFG West Moors to carry out fuels analysis and testing in the field.

CLR - Commando Logistics Regiment. The logistcs support organisation for the Commando force.

[nimbev]

Thanks Helpful Stacker - really helpful:ok:

[Cornish Jack]

valMORNA and aa62 - "Snap", but in '55. Not pointed out was that we did our balloon jumps WITHOUT the benefit of reserve 'chutes - the feeling of relief when the thing opened was, perhaps, that much stronger!! Didn't use the practice tower, just the fan trainer.
Did some reservists 'sim 15s' where my stick leader started to go on the red and I had to hold him till the green, then let go! He hit the fuselage en route and I was worried sick until we got back and I checked with him - he had no recall of it! 'Jock' Fox was the kingpin W.O. PJI and ruled his chaps with the proverbial. Hastings return from WotG offered a splendid head massage by sticking your head through the open door into the slipstream! 60 years ago??? - Never!!:uhoh:

[ancientaviator62]

Cornish Jack,
nice story. Not unusual for someone to try to go at 'Red On' or even the command 'Stand in the door'. We could usually hear some of the troops bumping down the side of the Hastings. Always preferred despatching from the port door as you had more room. The starboard door was further forward for structural reasons.

[Warmtoast]

In my day PJIs were gnarled veterans who shouted at trainees how to land on two feet or roll properly or whatever. I was reminded how things have changed when I visited Northolt a few years ago for the launch of a range of MOD approved action toys.

At the event we were introduced to a variety of serving personnel including these two from PJIs from 1 PTS at Brize Norton.

Just shows how things change - or perhaps I've just got older!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/SgtjOBrienLouiseBuxton_1065x800.jpg

Sgt Jimmy O’Brien, 1 PTS, R.A.F. Brize Norton, Member of the R.A.F. Falcons Parachute Display Team and Flt. Lt. Louise Buxton, Leader of the R.A.F. Falcons Parachute Display Team.

Read more here:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/372972-mod-approved-action-toys.html#post4910140

[Courtney Mil]

Nope! She don't look gnarled to me!

[ricardian]

Some historic parachute-related film from Pathe (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/boys-will-be-paratroopers/query/Paratroopers)

[dragartist]

Warmtoast, Thanks for posting the colour pics of the tower and knacker cracker. I have just put some B&W photo's up on another site from 1969 when I was in Singapore.


As you know I enjoy the historical aspects and do my best to preserve artefacts and documents. When we had a clear out at JATE circa 1995 I sent the original drawings of the Ringwood tower over to Rolly W in the PTS Museum. they were drawn on waxed linen in India ink and were really works of art rather than Engineering drawings. I do hope they are still there.


Does anyone know when the knacker cracker on the Gateway Field at Brize was taken down. Probably to make way for the C17 Sqn buildings mid 2000s. I think it was abandoned on advice of the elf and safety police when nobody would accept any responsibility for it's design.


I did the water course 3 times as a civilian and had several goes on the big fan and swings in the PTS hangar.

[Motleycallsign]

I seem to remember that the tower was the only bit of equipment that I felt uneasy about, when one was pulled against the gate there was a total lack of 'self-control', by which I mean that you had lost all control over the situation, once the gates were opened by the PJI's then you went, like it or not. Even the fans in the hangar had less trepidation for me.
I remember also the descent from the Argosy, seeing the tail-boom alongside thinking, ' I'll hit that', the tailplane whizzing past overhead as my head went back, and then floating down, I was No1 in the stick of four and last to hit the ground - skinny rake in those days.....

[Pontius Navigator]

Question, how much para drill do aircrew do now?

In my day practically every other gym session was para rolls. I don't recall any continuation training thereafter. Escape training, dinghy drills and in the V-force annual CS exercise.

Once I joined Sunshine Airways we did an annual swim but no camping and delighting. In Maritime is was too wet and in AEW well . . .

My para skills are very useful in my forage as I convert a fall to a forward left, roll, and get up unhurt.

[ValMORNA]

P N,


Agreed, a forward-left (or -right) roll is a good escape route in event of a trip. My wife did something similar a few years ago, but broke her shoulder. Should have gone to Abingdon!