The Emirates Call Sign

[ExpatBrat]

Just a mini vent here...

The EK call sign is "Emirates", not "Emirat" and not "Emirati". I hear controllers using the wrong one and a lot of our pilots, too. I know what it is, it's kind of implying ownership, national pride or whatever and that's fine I guess, but the second two are not the airline's call sign.

Doesn't REALLY bug me (and I'm used to it by now) but it still bugs me a little just the same.

Anybody else feel the same or care to comment?

Just curious...

[motojet]

Just a mini vent here...

The EK call sign is "Emirates", not "Emirat" and not "Emirati". I hear controllers using the wrong one and a lot of our pilots, too. I know what it is, it's kind of implying ownership, national pride or whatever and that's fine I guess, but the second two are not the airline's call sign.

Doesn't REALLY bug me (and I'm used to it by now) but it still bugs me a little just the same.

Anybody else feel the same or care to comment?

Just curious...


A bit bored today?

[Mach_Krit]

Trying to fill the summer void?!? :ugh:

[Popgun]

I had a chuckle the other day when I heard, "The Emirate".

Too funny.

PG

[ExpatBrat]

yeah a little bored or i wouldn't be on here....but same with you guys lol.

anyway not a big deal, just one of those little things. I've just never heard people invent their own call signs before. :)

[HM79]

I will be happy to call you anything you want, on one condition: you stop calling me one hour before your departure time asking what runway and departure you can expect. I don't see your flight strip until 30 minutes prior to departure time and your company is the only one who asks an hour before. If we pull your clearance up early the response is always no we will call you back. :ugh::ugh:

By the way, the departure runway is on the ATIS and it runs 24 hours a day, go give it a listen.

[MD83FO]

HM79

I always do my best at figuring things out on my own with the available tools, and being prepared for a last minute runway change, in most cases you will find in this type of airlines a fair amount of training going on, although the dispatcher does his best at calculating the RTOW, the pilots are often confronted with this question when they reach the airplane, we calculate it on a TO performance software, and if can get help with the runway prediction for departure time, we have a better idea of max take off weight.
most of the time spent preparing the departure is based on that runway,
preparing the FMS for normal and emergency situation, briefing for both conditions, preparing takeoff performance, and offloading cargo if there is an unexpected runway change. all those things can be done very quickly with experienced and efficient crews, but again consider there are plenty off pilots under training, some of them will never overcome that phase.

[Thridle Op Des]

If only JFK gave us taxi clearance to the ATIS and PDC runway....;)

[marck_c]

Why do Emirates crews have such difficulty with JFK's procedures? They're not dissimilar to most major US airports. Additionally, the many other international carriers operating do not seem to have seem to have theses issues.

[cerbus]

It speaks volumes of the type of pilots Emirates hires.
Critical thinking, deductive reasoning and common sense are sorely lacking but then again if we possessed all of the above EK couldn't run rough shot over us and we wouldn't put up with the crap they deliver.

[harry the cod]

It's not so much the crew, although there are a few muppets about, but more the SOP's. BA can set up their A380's in 30 minutes, we need 40-50 with double checking the cross check of the check. Check?

Harry

[marck_c]

But having said that, there is no magic to JFK's procedures. I've heard that the route briefing documentation for Emirates JFK ops is several pages long. Not to mention the setup for a Canarsie visual arrival. It's a simple visual with some lead in lights thrown in. Every pilot should be able to handle that without reading several pages of briefings.

[takeoffpowerset]

over India sometimes you hear " AAmrit " hmmm first time i heard that it sound like Armpit !!! ... only once the pilot replied back the instruction did i know that actually it was an Emirates super over flying.

[Kapitanleutnant]

One morning a few years back we were over Bahrain and the controller was pretty busy with all the flights transiting his sector and sounded a bit stressed. Sounded as if he was from North America.
Another EK flight (whose radio voice sounded local) then came on freq to announce, "Bahrain, Emirati xxx at flight level 320". The Bahrain controller snapped back, "Emirati xxx.... I don't have an Emirati xxx on my strip. Go back to previously assigned frequency to straighten out your call sign"

K

[ExpatBrat]

One morning a few years back we were over Bahrain and the controller was pretty busy with all the flights transiting his sector and sounded a bit stressed. Sounded as if he was from North America.
Another EK flight (whose radio voice sounded local) then came on freq to announce, "Bahrain, Emirati xxx at flight level 320". The Bahrain controller snapped back, "Emirati xxx.... I don't have an Emirati xxx on my strip. Go back to previously assigned frequency to straighten out your call sign"

haha, awesome!

[Voel]

I will be happy to call you anything you want, on one condition: you stop calling me one hour before your departure time asking what runway and departure you can expect. I don't see your flight strip until 30 minutes prior to departure time and your company is the only one who asks an hour before. If we pull your clearance up early the response is always no we will call you back.



You need a flight strip do give runway-in-use? I don't.

[Emma Royds]

But having said that, there is no magic to JFK's procedures. I've heard that the route briefing documentation for Emirates JFK ops is several pages long. Not to mention the setup for a Canarsie visual arrival. It's a simple visual with some lead in lights thrown in. Every pilot should be able to handle that without reading several pages of briefings.

For those reading who are not from EK, you are dealing with an operator that would rather create an RNAV letdown in lieu of allowing their guys to fly a stand alone visual approach. Our Flight Ops Management view automation as the last line of defence with human intervention viewed as being the threat, rather than automation being designed to support the human.

Its ridiculous I know but it won't change and we have what we have. Our leaders enjoy injecting eye watering sums of cash into brand awareness exercises, such as sports sponsorships and they don't want any risk of any bad PR.

[helen-damnation]

But having said that, there is no magic to JFK's procedures. I've heard that the route briefing documentation for Emirates JFK ops is several pages long. Not to mention the setup for a Canarsie visual arrival. It's a simple visual with some lead in lights thrown in. Every pilot should be able to handle that without reading several pages of briefings.

Agreed. However, not every pilot has to work under management with such a punitive reputation (real or imagined). Additionally, most "western" pilots have the luxury of a union to stand behind them if things don't go according to plan.

Only saying.

[cerbus]

Does that mean EK is going to allow unions now to "help" their pilots?

[Al Murdoch]

I find the American attitude to international airlines a bit strange. I know most of the pilots you deal with work things out on the back of an envelope, but guess what, when you fly to some airports max once or twice every few years, it takes a bit of preparation and briefing. It's called airmanship. If means pissing off some grumpy controller then tough titty.

[HM79]

Al, I'm not a "grumpy" controller (in general), and I find it interesting that you take exception to my opinion. It is based on working with over 100 air carriers on a daily bases, from all continents of the planet. Most of whom are in your exact position of flying to far flung places on rare occasions. From that rather broad cross section of aviators no group routinely poses the question I raised earlier. I wanted to know why you folks do?

You appear to work for a "blame" oriented organization that expects perfection so a certain level is to CYA, but why can't you get the service runway in use from the Atis? I am not going to give you a different answer. In most cases the person you are asking is a trainee who doesn't know anything about an expected construction related runway change until it happens, and then they have to change the atis.

[Outatowner]

Does that claim include Antarctica?

What about the Chinese guys who were yelled at and abused by Ground at JFK a while back? It was all over youtube. Tut-tut.... not cool!

"Emirati" - great story about the locals flying through Bahrain and using a made-up callsign... :ok::ok::ok:

[TangoUniform]

Abused? YGTBSM. If one can't deal with a little NY attitude...stay (bid) away. Don't want anyone's feelings hurt after all. The sensitivities around here are extraordinary.

[Al Murdoch]

I do get the runway in use from the ATIS. The problem is that it changes every 2 minutes. With multiple runways at places like JFK - there's only so many changes you can prepare for. I can't comment on why this only seems to affect EK, but if it's only us doing it it can't be that much of a burden. And if the guy doing the answering is a trainee that can't read the Notams of his own airport, then it's probably good training...

[cerbus]

For crying out loud how hard is it to fly in the US?
You see the airport? Cleared to land! By the way US controllers don't want to be told when you are established, believe it or not they have radar there.
Most of the time you are within gliding distance of a 10,000 FT runway.
I can't think of an easier place to fly in the world.

[HM79]

The guidelines for changing the ATIS in the US are:

2-9-2. OPERATING PROCEDURES
Maintain an ATIS message that reflects the most current arrival and departure information.
a. Make a new recording when any of the following occur:
1. Upon receipt of any new official weather regardless of whether there is or is not a change in values.
2. When runway braking action reports are received that indicate runway braking is worse than that which is included in the current ATIS broadcast.
3. When there is a change in any other pertinent data, such as runway change, instrument approach in use, new or canceled NOTAMs/PIREPs/HIWAS update, etc.

The weather is changed hourly at 51 minutes after the hour or when there are significant weather changes. Those broadcasts made that are not the regularly scheduled ATIS's are notated with the term special.

Al, I think you are engaging in hyperbole. The runways in use do change throughout the day to maximize efficiency; but not every two minutes.

Let me try a different angle. If before every flight, while you were standing at the podium prior to boarding. There is always flight information, such as the flight number, destination and time of departure. If before every leg, a passenger asked what time are we supposed to leave? What would your reaction be?:ugh::ugh:

[Check Airman]

I don't fly for Emirates, but here's my opinion.

JFK isn't that hard to figure out. When using 4/22, the inner (longer) runway is used for departure. When using 13/31, the longer will be used for departure.

The arrival atis will normally say ILS 31L/R in use, and 31L is being used for departures. That gives me a pretty good idea of which approach to brief.

Now if you ever have the displeasure of flying into Chicago...:mad:

[glofish]

Many of us EK jockeys have been flying into JFK and ORD before their glory-days in the sandpit. Basically no problem. Now when they operate under the "Emirati" callsign, suddenly there is a problem! Just why could that be? :ugh:
And just why would such problems accentuate since about 2 years?? :ugh::ugh:

Talking about callsigns: Don't we all like "Diiiiii Lufffthansahhh"?

[ruserious]

Let me try a different angle. If before every flight, while you were standing at the podium prior to boarding. There is always flight information, such as the flight number, destination and time of departure. If before every leg, a passenger asked what time are we supposed to leave? What would your reaction be?

Seriously Dude, that is the best argument you can manage, what a great analogy :ugh:

From a users point of view, JFK is relatively easy to operate into, apart from the changes in departure on line up, that are often not easily line select-able in our FMS. However JFK controllers are prone to occasional bouts of histrionics, the better airports simply don't do that.

We love you none the less :hug: :O

[Panther 88]

Just great DUDE, all you, "JFK controllers are so mean", cry babies will have a real fun time going into there the next few months. Ooh, they changed the runway on me, what to do, what to do? :{

[falconeasydriver]

I love the banter at JFK, makes the end of the day interesting, besides if they give it to you, just give it back…simples! And yes as Glofish has already mentioned, lots of us pre EK days operated in and out of Kennedy as a weekly exercise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sQuHnrJu1I

[fliion]

Not one of them said "daycimel"

Disgraceful

; >

f.

[Outatowner]

So they're ALL too lazy to do it properly??? Dang y'all that's shocking. :=:=:=

[ExpatBrat]

Yes, apparently it's asking for the runway in use at JFK.

[White Knight]

And just why would such problems accentuate since about 2 years??



Dunno matey; unless you're trying to say that it's the 380 boys! The same ones that used to fly the 340 there twice a day over 10 years ago:rolleyes:without any hoo-har!!!

Anyway - we don't all spend our lives bidding for the US! My last flight there was nearly a year ago, so even though I did used to fly for a living back over there I am now out of touch!

As a comparison, I do hear many of our guys (probably the ones so up to scratch with the US) flying to Oz still not getting the callsigns right! It's 'Emirates Four Thirty-Two' NOT 'Emirates Four Three Two'. Simple if you fly there often heh? A bit like JFK:D:D

[glofish]

A tad touchy, eh Whitey?

If i had implied anything, then it would be the machine, not the boys. It was not me telling everybody that EK needs quite a bit longer to set up the dugong than other operators. I wouldn't know but many buddies do and tell.

The over-complicated sops for preparations with multiple crosschecks, trap mitigations in addition to the never ending briefings of every possible arrival or departure, only lead to confusion and no one remembering the very essential.

Thus such silly questions about the "actual" actual .

[WhatsaLizad?]

I will be happy to call you anything you want, on one condition: you stop calling me one hour before your departure time asking what runway and departure you can expect. I don't see your flight strip until 30 minutes prior to departure time and your company is the only one who asks an hour before. If we pull your clearance up early the response is always no we will call you back. :ugh::ugh:

By the way, the departure runway is on the ATIS and it runs 24 hours a day, go give it a listen.

Once a few of you guys (very small number) figure out that you are down there because we are up there and not the other way around, things will go much smoother.

I'm not Emirates, but work for a US Major into JFK/EWR/LGA on a regular basis. I will note that the "attitude" is ok with me, it will be dealt with immediately if it conflicts with my flight, but the ATC treatment of foreign carriers who may be new or not frequent visitors is out of line and a possible safety hazard.

[BigX]

Well said, WhatsaLizad. Agreed entirely. :D

[White Knight]

A tad touchy, eh Whitey?

If i had implied anything, then it would be the machine, not the boys. It was not me telling everybody that EK needs quite a bit longer to set up the dugong than other operators. I wouldn't know but many buddies do and tell

Not touchy at all Gloey:} I just know your feelings regarding the KOTS... If I may say; the 380 is very easy to set up! Anyone tells you otherwise probably works for the Training Dept. or Flight Ops:ugh::ugh:

It's a simple machine:ok:

[Al Murdoch]

Whatsalizad? I'm just wondering, how do you find it when you visit the rest of the developed world? Do you find ATC is prepared to help you out and accommodate your relative unfamiliarity?
Genuine question btw... Not making a point.