Am I correct in what I am seeing re pallets hitting the ground ?

[500N]

Was reading about the air drops by US C-130's in Iraq and was watching the video and right at the end, from about 4.45 onwards, it looks like two pallets come out the back and hit the ground, breaking open and spraying the contents everywhere.

The first bit is from high and to the rear of the C-130, the video a few seconds later is from in front and above
and shows a more dramatic impact.

Am I correct in what I am seeing re pallets hitting the ground and breaking open or is it just dirt etc
being thrown forward as the pallet impacts the ground ?

Previously to this earlier in the video, they showed two pallets of water leaving the aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrdkqGKLccg#t=173

ZrdkqGKLccg#t=173

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Not sure but if you're dropping without parachutes you should be low level.

[fleigle]

Are you sure they are USAF?. The RAF were sending C130's for supply too.
Anyhow, looks pretty damn low to me !!
f

[ancientaviator62]

I am sure the clip is of USAF Hercules. Normally free drop ( i.e no parachutes) goes out at 50 feet, at least in the RAF. If you look at the a/c and it's shadow I think you will find they are low enough especially given the terrain. A lot of dust etc does get generated on those types of DZ. Respect to those crews doing a very difficult job very well. And yes I have the tee shirt !

[Dengue_Dude]

When we were free-dropping in Ethiopia the pallets were triple bagged and shrink wrapped. We dropped (ME) from about 10 (ten) feet RADALT (I called the heights) with 50% flap and gear down to minimise the impact.

That water packaging doesn't look too robust to me, but difficult to judge. The impact looks like it was into some soft(ish) material (sand?), but not sure what the supplies 'survival' rate would be. Judging by the aircraft's shadow, they are not THAT low.

But the cynic in me says the political gesture has been made in front of the world's press.

[Ogre]

I seem to recall seeing something many years ago about low altitude drops like this, in which the question was 'why don't they land and offload". The explanation was along the lines that landing was costing them a fortune in tyres and associated damage when they hit somethning, meanwhile dropping at low altitude like that may have spread the load around the ground a bit but was not that destructive as far as the load was concerned.

[ancientaviator62]

Denge Dude,
the free drop regulations were relaxed for Op Bushell as the 'normal' SOP for free drop was 50 feet and gear up. The USAF may have a different modus operandi. But whatever fits the scenario and is safe for the crews to get the job done. You are probably right to be a mite cynical as to have any effect the airdrops need to be continued as long as possible and in greater strength.

[woptb]

Ogre,
Don't know the truth of the "not landing" SOP,but in Ethiopia on Op Bushell,the strips used, beat the living 5hite out of the airframes,even with all the additional protection we fitted.

[500N]

Thank you for your replies.

I did notice slightly earlier in the video some footage of people picking up things from the ground and that gave an idea of the spread on impact.

[skydiver69]

I might be wrong but this is possible what I heard an aid worker talking about on radio 4 a couple of days ago. I am paraphrasing but I think she said that all the aid got smashed up on landing and criticised the USAF for not dropping it by parachute.

[500N]

sky

I just did a search and yes, you seem to be correct in what you heard.

An article or two stated the milk cartons broke as did a fair amount of the water bottles.

[Dan Gerous]

Would it not be better to do all these drops by parachute, and the folk on the ground could use these as makeshift shelters? I recall a post in the C130 thread saying this is what happened on a previous humanitarian crisis.

[VX275]

Back last century I remember a previous conversation about the airdrop of water bottles for humaniatrian relief. The concensus was it was better for them to be dropped frozen solid as more would survive, even with a damaged bottle it would take some time for it to melt away. However, keeping it frozen in the aircraft was seen to be the problem.

As to free drop from height, remember the US drops to Kosovo. Some of these were high altitude drops where the container of MRE was ripped open (by a static line) on exit and the MRE sachets allowed to free fall.
When you're starving even an MRE is welcome and can't kill you if it hits you on the head from 12000 ft. But maybe dropping Pork and Beans to Muslims is a tad thoughtless.

[melmothtw]

Is not the problem with a parachute drop into an uncontrolled zone that those on the ground might well find themselves rushing to stand underneath the descending pallets in a bid to be the 'first in line'?

I guess that, despite the disadvantages of some broken produce, the free-fall method might well be safer all round. If I'm not mistaken, this was also the method used by the RAF in Ethopia in the 1980s. Perhaps for the same reason?

[ancientaviator62]

It was not the intention to allow those on the ground to use the 'chutes as 'makeshift shelters' on Op Agila (Rhodesia/Zimbabwe). The low return of the 'chutes very quickly depleted the UK stock of 18 and 28 foot parachutes. I doubt that we could sustain any prolonged airdrop commitment given the parlous state of the UK airdrop stores.
The Ethiopia airdrop was mainly grain in sacks for which free drop was by far the best method.

[melmothtw]

As if on cue from the BBC:

LATEST:RAF aborted airdrop over mountain in Northern Iraq overnight amid fears people may be injured by it, Downing St say

The low return of the 'chutes very quickly depleted the UK stock of 18 and 28 foot parachutes. I doubt that we could sustain any prolonged airdrop commitment given the parlous state of the UK airdrop stores.

Edited to add: It's my understanding that only the USAF is using free-fall, and that the RAF is using parachutes (at least they were on the footage I saw on Sky).

[onetrack]

One must always keep in mind that parachutes are no guarantee of a perfect, undamaged, right-on-the-mark, delivery. :)

Military Air Drop Bloopers - YouTube

[Mal Drop]

In addition to AA62's post, a long time ago in a ground tour far away I was given the job of preparing a point brief for AO Plans on parachute losses as part of rationalising all of MOD's parachute packing and transportation activities. The loss figures were fairly eye-watering even in those days of a less stringent budget, so that may well be a legacy factor. I am not sure how much was allocated for airdrop in Afghanistan or what our stocks are now but I would imagine that somewhere, a niche group of beancounters are sharpening their pencils...

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

In considering not getting hit by a falling load of aid, I think I'd rather dodge a paradrop drifting earthwards than a sled load free-dropped at 150kts/50ft......:ok:

[ancientaviator62]

Mal Drop,
nicely put. Anyone interested in airdrop could do worse than to look at some of the pics on the Hercules thread of PPRuNe. As regards the people on the DZ causing the drop to be aborted I do not think some of you realise at what speed even under a parachute these loads descend. To give an extreme example the energy absorbing systems on the RAF heavy drop loads could be required to deal with up to 19G ! It would not be the first time a drop has had to be aborted for similar reasons.
The RAF crew had no choice IMHO. You can just imagine the headlines and the pictures 'RAF kill refugees in botched mercy drop'. They seem to be dammed if they do and dammed if they do not whilst attempting a very tricky operation !

[melmothtw]

I've re-read the thread, and I don't think anyone is criticizing the RAF in anyway for aborting the drop ancientaviator62.

[Tashengurt]

BBC reporting Tornados to be used to recce drop sites.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Pontius Navigator]

I can understand desparate and ignorant people trying to get as close as possible to the delivery.

It used to be the case that Libyan scrap metal dealers would hide behind the target to take immediate delivery of the scrap.

[nimbev]

MalDrop and AA62's comments about shortages of parachutes reminds me of similar problem in same part of world (almost). 1965 - 2 Para was based at Hamala and 30 Sqn's Beverleys were at Muharraq as their personal chariots. We had dropped elements of 2 Para in one of the Emirates where they were working with the Trucial Oman Scouts and we were resupplying them by airdrop, using up the majority of our heavy drop parachutes. 24 November the Emir of Kuwait dies - HMG is immediately concerned over the succession and rumblings on the Kuwait/Iraq border, and considers intervention. 30 Sqn goes onto readiness to support 2 Para as required, but oh dear we dont have enough parachutes to effect either an air assault or resupply because they are up in the mountains 400 miles the wrong way down the Gulf. Nothing changes.

[Robert Cooper]

According to a report in the Daily Telegraph: "Iraqi officials said that much of the US aid had been useless because it was dropped without parachutes and exploded on impact."

Sounds a bit odd, particularly as these crews know what they are doing.

Bob C

[West Coast]

Budget cuts. No money for them.

[500N]

From the Telegraph.

However, Iraqi officials said that much of the US aid had been “useless” because it was dropped from 15,000ft without parachutes and exploded on impact.


Well they obviously haven't watched the video of the drop. 15,000 ft :ugh:

[Dengue_Dude]

AA62, re Op Bushel relaxation of rules. Thanks.

Funny, I didn't know that - we were just doing it. Mind you, I was just following the skipper (Bob Rowley RIP).

Interesting too we were also dropping at an elevation of around 8,000' so the TAS was considerably higher than all our practices at Sea Level.

[ancientaviator62]

Denge Dude,
when the Op Bushell was brewing up it was realised that out current experience of free drop was limited to the 'pilot's lollipop' singleton after dropping the main stores. I did one of the full a/c load free drops practice and it was very instructive for us all. In Ethiopia the ULLA drop configuration was adopted, 10 feet AGL, gear down. When we did Khana Cascade (Nepal) the drop SOP was similarly amended due to the height etc of some of the DZs. One of the a/c managed to scrape the rear bumper as it climbed away ! Sorry to hear that Bob is no longer with us. I remember him describing his first wet night carrier landing with the F4. Very scary.

[Gentleman Aviator]

Many years ago when I was on Fat Alberts, I discussed this with a couple of our Belgian C-130 exchange pilots.
Their view was that it was better to drop from a safer, higher altitude - the kit would hit the ground at the same sort of speed, as it could only accelerate to terminal velocity.

ULLA drops have an equivalent landing speed as if we had dropped from a more reasonable altitude.
The kit does not get spread out on the ground if we drop from greater height, so is easier to gather on the ground.
Less likely to hit people as our landing area is small.
Finally, pretty easy to fly as we are at a much higher altitude.

It all seemed to make sense to me at the time.
I don't know it JATE ever trialled such a drop.

Any thoughts as to this approach?

GA

[dragartist]

Mal Drop, I would have been interested to have read your report on attrition and recovery (or lack of)

GA - Yes JATE did some trials with a copter box - Tri wall box long and thin with flaps folded out and held at a angle with bodge tape.

For Kosovo a qty of 26ft ring slots were bought from the US (Irvin Company) for use above 18K ft to get high away from ground fire and not be so affected by the winds teh rate of descent was 65 ft/sec c/w 19 ft/sec for a standard stores chute. Unfortunatly most of these were disposed of unused under RAB to a barn Nr Cirencester. We tried to buy them back when we were short of stuff in the sand pit

VX275 is correct - dropping water has always proved troublesome with an estimated 10% recovery rate. most of the PET bottles burst.

For MREs we used triwall boxes opened by Static line on exit to scatter the contents. (see the thread AA62 mentions about the roller conveyors) for HUMAId in this situation it was felt to be better than keeping the stores in 1 ton lumps and hurting the recipients - foil pouches fell like rain rather than 2000 lb bombs.

The US appear to be using a low cost 1 ton parachute - these cost less than $800 packed. produced in southern California and AZ using shipped in Mexican labour to get around US laws. The ones I saw in the UK videos are designed to be reused and as a result cost a lot more. Do the maths. UK bean counters can't add up! so much for the teachings on whole life costs!

Pleased to hear the girl on the BBC news (the one who often appears on QT) making a commitment to continue dropping.

Keep safe guys.

[VX275]

Dragartist. Do you remember the ADUX parachute used for one tons?
A parachute made from plastic sacking and bailer twine and bought as a use once and throw away disposable item.
In the late 80's I remember Boscombe being asked to look into why there had been a growing number of MALDROPS involving ADUX. It didn't take much detective work as a squint at the log cards showed canopies with 16 drops, 19 drops etc. :ok:

[CoffmanStarter]

Latest drop video just released by the MOD ... clearly supported by Tornado escorts :ok:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=WIF5hM7IOeI

[dragartist]

VX, Certainly do remember the ADUX one shot chute. You are absolutly correct about how daft we were to try and use them over and over again. I was on Kevil DZ when we did the CDS trial form the J using ADUX. - we were desperatly short of SC15s for the sand pit. There was only one serving Despatcher left (I will not name him for fear of embarassing him) who could tie a draw tie with lightweight bungee. - as you know no Nora Batty's on ADUX. one guy proposed a mod to introduce them as I was signing the Form 5s to dispose of the rermaining stocks alongside the 60 fts. In the stick of 8 we had one that tore an arm off from the crown. There was no repair scheme in the topic 6!!!

Do you know if we ever adopted the US Low Cost chute which really was one shot and a fraction of the cost of an SC15 across all LODs. The videos being posted on Defence web show SC15s. Spoons gives a good commentry in one I watched earlier. I guess from the height they are dropping they don't need PADS

[VX275]

I've no knowledge of the US low cost chute I'm afraid. I do though remember the first drop of the one tons on 26ft Ring slot from high altitude. A stick of 8 were dropped onto Larkhill impact area through cloud. We only saw 7 canopies and so having recoved them we went searching for number 8 driving a long wheel base Landrover over the target area trying not to get stuck in the bomb craters. It was fun avoiding all the bombs and shells lying on the surface and then occasionally getting out and standing on the target hulks to get a better view. We eventually found it in the area previously used for wire guided missiles firings (MT didn't like us for winding all that wire around the prop shafts). The two extra layers of EDM had done their job and whilst some of the jerry cans were crushed at least half still held their water ballast, OK for humanitarian relief.

[Mechta]

A few years ago the Australians (IIRC) came up with a simple carton with top flaps which opened out as rotors, allowing it to autorotate slowly to the ground. A couple of cords, which crossed under the bottom of the box, went to the tips of the 'rotors' to take the flight loads.

This is a similar concept, but of much more complicated construction:

CopterBox Expendable Airdrop Delivery System for Ammo, Food, Meds, and More | DefenseReview.com (DR): An online tactical technology and military defense technology magazine with particular focus on the latest and greatest tactical firearms news (tact (http://www.defensereview.com/copterbox-expendable-airdrop-delivery-system-for-ammo-food-meds-and-more/)
http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/CopterBox_Incoming.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

VX275,
I seem to recall the reused 'one shot' ADUX had a tendency to stick to itself and thus be very reluctant to open. Anyone who has struggled to open a plastic waste bag will relate to this problem.