Too old for airlines...

[jethrolx]

Ok, so in another post I put some comments (which may have been a little emotional) regarding a response aimed at my age in relation to having no chance at getting in to an airline. Having spoken to some others on the ground it appears as though this is the case, so a public apology to the Cap is in order.

What a sad world we live in where 35 is deemed too old....

Anyway, this post may get gagged by the mods so I'll take
My chances here, but could someone give me an indication of potential pay in GA as a newbie trough to a more experienced pilot? I am trying to make a decision on completing training which unfortunately comes down to return on investment. Airline work would be a no brainer (after some time in GA build experience of course) but am doubtful GA will be quite so fruitful.

I appreciate that not all matters in life boil down to
Money, but I have one of those things that seems to kill
Off careers in aviation, a family (which I love incidentally)

I could use some really constructive feedback here guys and Gals, I've been around aviation and this forum for enough years to know how most think with regard to newbies and their desires on airlines. I dont mean to appear disrespectful to those of you who have spent your entire careers in GA, I don't view it as just a stepping stone to something better. If the pay was equal I would rather be doing hands on flying, but like many I have financial commitments and mouths to feed.

Thanks.

[fwjc]

The likelihood for a sensible return on your investment in GA flying is very low, I'd estimate around 5-10% likelihood of actually getting a return that pays off your investment and allows you to support your family. This is based on the number of jobs out there, and the range of payscales. I'm talking UK/EU here but I would imagine it's not that dissimilar a picture in Australia.
You need to really really really want to fly for a living, plus work bloody hard for a long time, and have a decent amount of luck to get to a sensibly paid position in GA.

[fwjc]

That said, I know people (plural) over 40 who've made it into the airlines, although their debt / work life balance /pay isn't really conducive to family living.

[jethrolx]

Sorry I realised I should have included I'm now UK based. Not bothered by getting back the money I have spent, more In terms of improving my earning capacity as not currently employed In aviation. Trying to get a rough idea of potential salary

[Luke SkyToddler]

In an ironic twist of fate, just about all of us expat airline pilots dream of the same thing ... an acceptably well paid, family friendly, nice little 9-to-5 GA job in our home country, that we could take an early retirement to. They are as rare as unicorn :mad: and I would suggest they are even harder to find than an airline job, because they're always recruited by word of mouth, they're never advertised.

The answer for you my friend lies in helicopters. Seriously. There's a lot less of the silly ageism and pseudo elite airline nonsense. I know a couple of career changing guys who got into it much later in life and pretty quickly started making good money, one with the police and one in the oil & gas business.

[truckflyer]

I am on the cautious side, but 35 is not a problem to be honest.

One friend of mine 37, has just been 2 years with airline, and now got chance with BA! So it is never to late!

Myself I got chance at 42, and have now more interesting job offers, so there is chances there, but this is mostly EU / Asia, all depends what you want in life!

Good luck ;)

[rileman]

Hello, following this thread, I just turned 36 and I´m seriously considering doing the course ATPL, hoping to make a living as a pilot, my motivation is more by vocation, but I also need the money to live, logically. my question is, where would I have to apply for a job when I finish the academy with 200 flight hours ?, what countries and work of general aviation? and if you think that would I have opportunities to work and earn a living as a pilot ?, or you think that I'm too old to start ?.
I have no trouble going to work anywhere in the world, I have no family. I just want to make a living flying, it's my passion and my vocation.

thank you very much in advance for your attention

kind regards

[Londonflyer.]

You have to be realistic and go into things with your eyes open.
I work as an air taxi pilot flying MEP. I went into this late in life and whilst I have been lucky to get a job, it barely pays the bills. I have a small retainer and then the rest is paid by the hour.

I am in my late thirties and with over a 1000 hours now, but my chances of moving into corporate or airlines look like being very slim. The preference seems to be "cadets" that work for very little and can be moulded easily to fit the company SOP's.

GA flying experience counts for very little these days, especially if you are older. Even the traditional recruiters of GA experienced pilots like flybe are moving towards mostly cadets. And with the stupid idiots out there that actually pay airlines to go to work as well, the chances for everyone are even less.

So yes, it can be done in you thirties, but as has been posted, well paid GA jobs are few and far between, especially ones that are salaried. I know of only one regional that still take a chance on over thirties, the rest, along with the charters and major airlines have unofficial age policies unless you have experience on type commensurate with age.

Personally, I am now looking to go back to my old job in IT, and possibly fly ad hoc or para dropping at weekends instead, as financially, it is no longer viable for me to chase a multi crew dream where the odds are so small.

I know there are people who will post of the great success of joe blogs who got an airline job at 42, but these are very small minority in a sea of twenty something 200 hour integrated students.

Sorry if I sound negative, but this is the reality of the situation for a late thirties GA pilot, so by all means give it a go if you have money to burn, but just be realistic about your career prospects ;-)

[acepilotmurdock]

I trained when I was 32 and got my first airline job aged 35........ So I believe you get out what you put in...... I had to dispatch for a couple of years with low wages but the networking was worth more.

Good luck :ok:

[CaptainCriticalAngle]

I think your friend gave you some questionable advice if he said that you were too old.

Assuming you've got a Class 1 that is.

No doubt there is ageism in this industry, like many others, and it's all done below the board of course.

But I have spoken to chief pilots of major airlines and some say they take people on their merits and older people are less likely to move around as much.

Having said that, the ones I spoke to had taken the older people from CTC, CAE, FTJerez etc etc

I know someone in their late forties was recently taken on by BA at CAE on their FPP. So a risk for sure, but it can be done. Concentrate on becoming a good pilot and the rest should follow (going to one of the big schools seems to be the key though).

Best of luck with your final decision.

[Soteria]

Australian GA used to be the ideal starting point for a commercial or even military pilot. Lots of choices, lots of opportunity and lots of people competing for the same jobs, basically a thriving industry. Now it has become over regulated, under supported and the opportunities for a newbie, someone who wants a career change or a kid with stars in his eyes is gone. The industry has died. Very very sad.

[FANS]

Don't know about AUS, but in the UK I'd have thought the situation is actually starting to become easier if you have the money and maybe give CTC a call.

Just don't complain when you've got no money, working weekends, job isn't what you thought it was etc etc.

[SlingsbyT67M]

Ok, so to give my honest but yet very humble opinion on this one...Here is my story.

I had a very good paying job and a career which was on track for my age at the time. I was 37 had a PPL and was doing a lot of aerobatics. After asking the, "am I too old to do a commercial license or will I possibly get a job in an airline" about a million times and getting pretty much the same advice as above I decided to take the plunge and go for it! I sold property, cars and pretty much everything I owned and immersed myself in my studies and flying. Here's what I have discovered since completing my fATPL in 2008...

Finding it near impossible to find a job I went and completed an instructors rating (adding another 5 grand to an already massive mountain of debt) and after getting in the car and driving to just about every flying school within a 20 mile radius of my house I managed to get a job and to be honest it was some of the best and most rewarding flying I did. From here on in things didn't go so well. It has undoubtedly been the hardest 8 years of my life. I have had countless contracts (in business aviation) that have never been honoured (eventually getting a bizz jet job) I have now discovered an industry that will quickly take 20 something year old cadets fresh out of CTC or OAA before they even so much as give an experienced pilot a look in. Besides my wife leaving me, living in backyards and eating out of tins to survive I have come across and industry that is rife with extreme nepotism, ageism and sexism. I have even flown with Captains that make you feel inadequate because of your age! That said I now have well over 2600 hours of which 1300 hours are on jets and "hey" guess what I still can't even so much as get an interview with an airline! In fact with the aviation industry being as fickle as it is I now find myself with no job at all and as so much time has passed I can't even go back to my old career..

So, I guess the million dollar question "if I had the choice again, would I go for it?" to which I would without a moments hesitation say, "absolutely not" If you have a good job and over 35 years of age think long and hard before committing to the world of aviation.

Now, this being "pprune" and the fact that I am now probably going to get a complete onslaught of negative comments I would like to put forward a massive disclaimer!

These are my views borne completely out of my own first hand experiences. I know everyone is not me and that some of you have had a very positive outcome (all 3% of you) I just wish I had someone like me to talk to before I jumped into the most difficult thing I have ever had to endure. I do love flying and when I am doing it there is nothing quite like it. For me it was just too much of an ordeal to get anywhere and if I can help anyone make up their minds in a constructive and logical way I will be more than happy to give you the facts and let you decide for yourselves

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Thank you for your honesty.
However despite what you post - this is not what the majority of aspiring pilots want to hear and will in the main be ignored.
Newbie pilots you have been warned!

[speed_alive_rotate]

@SlingsbyT67M. A very honest and Id say difficult post to write. I don't think anybody with any level of intelligence could comment badly on what is your own personal experience. If it helps guys and girls make up their minds hats off to you Sir!!

[SlingsbyT67M]

Guys, thanks for the kind words. Its people like you that make the word of aviation a wonderful place to be.

And yes you were right; it was a very difficult post to write as I am now probably going to have to bow out of the race and say goodbye to a dream.

That said, I really don't want to put off newbies and aspiring guys and girl off so should anybody have any questions or require some help with their decision I will be more than happy to take a pm or two. I promise I will just give the facts in a partial and unbiased way.........

[jimmyjetplane]

People on here making comments like ' oh there are certain carriers who will recruit right up to the age of 40 ' ! That's just so wrong !

Let me point something out folks...

Ageism in employment is illegal in this country end of !

The Airlines used to often state on forms (although probably not now) ' flying hours should be commensurate with age '

This makes me mad! Everyone should be considered on individual merit and experience in my opinion!!

[C-141Starlifter]

Young man, welcome to the real world! I can assure you ageism is alive and well worldwide!

[G-F0RC3]

It would be naive to suggest that ageism doesn't exist. It clearly does. The trouble is that it's so hard to prove that you've been a victim of it that there's not much you can do in most cases. If asked why the other guy was chosen ahead of you, no employer is going to say it's because he was younger, even if that was their real motive. That said, I do think the situation is better than it has been historically, particularly in large organisations like airlines. With a set process and scoring system that includes a variety of different decision makers you're much less likely to become a victim of age discrimination.

There are probably various reasons fewer older people make it through airline cadet recruitment processes. However, I imagine the most significant factor is that far fewer of them apply in the first place. When you reach your mid to late thirties there's a good chance you've got a mortgage, a husband or wife, kids, a family dog, and a half decent job. To drop it all and undertake a new career as difficult and expensive as aviation can be tricky to say the least, which is why the ranks of ab-initio applicants are predominantly made up of guys and girls in their late teens or early twenties. Clearly some people break this mould though. I know of guys in their mid thirties to mid forties who have applied for airline programmes and made it through.

A lot of posts above carry sound advice in my opinion. Usually people following their dreams look for information that supports what they want to know/do, rather than objective points of view that assess the facts. As hard as it is to accept, sometimes career aspirations never become a reality, and you can spend your whole life chasing the dream and end up with neither the dream nor a life worth living. My advice has always been to never risk what you can't afford to lose; and that applies to relationships as well as money.

[PPRuNeUser0173]

The reality is that dozens upon dozens of people sacrifice everything to "get in to the airlines" as the job is perceived to be well paid and glamorous.
Because of this and with a lot of help from the flight training schools claiming there is an impending "pilot shortage" unfortunately there is now a massive glut of inexperienced pilots chasing too few jobs.
The result is that only a small proportion of these newly qualified pilots are fortunate enough to obtain gainful employment. RYR and P2Fly schemes cannot be considered as gainful employment.........many are left by the wayside and will never achieve their "dream job". They scratch around instructing for a while before financial reality hits them.
This has all been said before but no one listens as it does not fit with the dream.
An earlier and very honest and brave post by Slingsby is nearer the mark and I would suggest that lots of guys and girls have similar stories to tell but not the guts to admit it on here!

[faacfilookingforajob]

Plenty of jobs all around the world. Pilot shortage is there.

1.ryanair
2.susi air

That's all!

A friend told me, the friend of his friend who is the step brother of his dad, etc, he got a job for an airline.... (woooow !!) and he is 64...So you get a chance!

So guys, it s time to join a flight school and spend all your money, maybe you wil join a pay to fly Program at 90000 euro to fly for 6 months an old Boeing in Nigeria.... You can still finish as a flight instructor, upset and bitter after a few years if you don't die before 50.

Anyway, let s say you got a job, how much you will make??? Peanuts!
For how long? Maybe a few months.
Where? Central Africa
Who pay to renew ratings every year?
Medical? Who pay? Are you fit?
Will you get a work permit or work free lance paid under the table?

In my personal point of view, this job is now a hoby and not a profession anymore , it s the jungle out there. Nobody will respect you out there.

Only idiots want become pilot.

[cheja]

Hello jethrolx and everyone

jethrolx:

I Felt totally identified with your experience.
Mine is very similar, albeit in another part of the world (South America).

Had a good job & career as a Telecom Engineer and later at Management within the Mobile / IT Industry.
At 43 y/o (with a family of 4 to support), I wasn't tolerating "the corporate world office" (with their politics, rivalries, injustices etc) anymore.

Being a PPL, I decided to take the chances, invest in 250 Single Engine Hours to get to the 500 hours mark, and tried to aim for the first possible job you could get to: CFI (Flight Instructor) at a local Flight School

In my case I decided to spent part of this 250 hours investment on one particular school, planning on later asking them for a CFI position.

It worked... and as similar as your case, it was (and still is) one of the most rewarding jobs, albeit paying, in my case, 20% of what I was previously earning....

Similar to you...wife dumped, family nightmare etc etc
(later she come back :-).

The CFI job gave me the chance to spend a lot of time at the main executive airport here (SABE/SADF, its like the Biggin Hill equivalnt in the London Area), and so search for a copilot job, looking for ME experience.

Started with "almost no pay" as a Turboprop F/O, just to build Turbine hours..later some Learjets, and again, similar to your case, accrued valuable experience (2000 hours, 1000+ hs bizjet, a type rating etc etc), but that is not leading to any well paid job neither the airlines....

Had also a couple of "hard talk's" with a few Captain's while flying the Lears, regarding age, career, heard a couple of "go back to your former profession son" etc etc.
Most of them were well intentioned..just but one, who didn't wanted new people on the market...

Today, 4 years later along the road, I fly for a company doing Medeva'cs old Lear 25's. with slim or almost no chances on getting an airline job, due to the market, and myself being 48 (today !).

But some airlines here, in the ICAO world, are considering people regardless of age.

If wanting to go to my previous job, chances are almost nonexistent, due to being "off line" and off the market, for so long.(same as you)

I am earning 40% of what my colleagues still on the Corporate ladder are earning, barely supporting the family. (40% salary, of the ones who still have jobs, since there is a worldwide crisis on the Telecom/Mobile Industry as well.

So in that sense (the pilot second life career) proved to be a good backup move.

Key questions is: Was it worth it ?

In economic terms, I spent all my savings, either to build time first, or to support the marginal income later.

But in terms of not even trying it, and keeping myself with the doubts of not accomplishing it, it was the most rewarding thing I did on my life.

I enjoyed (while studying a lot) all steps and stages, such as going for my first T/R at the Simulator in the USA (paid by the company, not me)...and flying today, even with its up's and down's

I learned that If I wanted to fly bizjets, and not making enough to support the family, I must exercise other skills, as a freelance worker, to make that extra income (electrician, free lance engineer, repair PC's, wherever etc etc).

Its amazing how and what you do, and you push yourself for an extra job, when short of money.
And the Airlines is not the only option off course. There are well GA jobs out there, that only show up when you started to have a T/R and Turbine/Jet time.

I wouldn't like to imagine myself, in a (sure much more comfortable) situation, where I considered not even attempted all these, decided back then to stay on my "secure life" at the corporate outfits, and now at 48 (today Augut 21 st !) crossing at the airport someone my age, that have tried it and succeeded !

So money (while the purpose of surviving) is not all, and you never know what might have happened to your previous career either. (I was laid off 2 times, on the IT market).
And still you have a long way to go, besides the airlines.
You never know whats next on a particular market. Be open. Apply and do networking for every possible job, everywhere.

I ended up doing 6 ferries USA to Argentina, that I never planned for (and those were well paid)
Got a job offer in SE Asia (ok Caravan's not Airbuses)

And also met some wonderful people here

Cheers

PM me if you like

[Redmedia]

I take my hat off to Slingsby and his post, very honest indeed, and very telling of the industry. I think it encompasses many of the risks you may run into.

If you chose to go into this career then please make sure you do it eyes wide open. Attempting to become a pilot comes with significant risks, there are too many sad stories out there.

It’s a personal thing, and it can be very difficult being torn between following one’s dream of becoming a pilot, or going back to the sensible (albeit boring) day job. That’s a really tough one, its self fulfilment vs. security. The older we get, the less risks we can afford to take as there is normally family involved, and we have less time to make up for any failure.

I can’t even begin to tell you what a pain in the butt it was to become a pilot, even as a younger guy. Expensive as heck, frustrating and seemingly always living out of a suitcase. 3 countries on 3 continents.

In total 6 jobs and a few thousand flying hours. I got to fly lots of GA and a few years as an FO for a couple of airlines. I gave it up when my airline in the UK went bust, I guess I was done chasing the dream of flight at that point. Other things in life became more interesting.

Even if my flying career is not the greatest success story, I am very happy I did it because I achieved a big goal in my life. It would have been hell looking back, knowing that I never did that one thing I always wanted to do.

[FlyHigh1973]

I have to take my hat off to SlingsbyT67M, it's easy to tell about what goes well and our success, than to tell about the hardship and what goes wrong.

I hope you get a chance to climb back up, because you've been working for it.

Unfortunatly his case is the rule and not the exception!

When you take a risk at investing in a Pilot career, you have to be aware that you're chances of success, despite how hard you study and apply yourself, are less the older you get, and you have to be lucky with the economic curve.

The investment is huge, and if things go wrong you have to be aware that you'll have to pay the bills but the Pilot job isn't there, so you have to have the backup plan.

If you have a job, don't leave it. Get the FATPL while working. It's harder but it will support you and lessen the risk. It will take time to get the chance, if it ever comes, but you won't be bankrupt and unemployed.

If you have the dream of being a Pilot, I say go for it, but first, do the math, get a backup plan if things don't turn out. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst!