IRAQ 3?

[HaveQuick2]

UK just announced support for US involvement in Northern Iraq, to include surveillance, refuelling, and airdrop.


Good luck guys and gals.


BBC News - UK planes to drop emergency aid to Iraqi refugees (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28701642)

[Lonewolf_50]

Ever hear of Operation Provide Comfort?
Operation Northern Watch?

US mucking about in Northern Iraq/Kurdish areas is old hat, old news, and no surprise.

Someday, I hope, Kurdistan will arise from the ashes of whatever is around it. Give them a shot at running their own place, just as
Bosniaka
Kosovars
Jews/Israelis
et al

have been given their chance to run their own show.

[Davef68]

E
Someday, I hope, Kurdistan will arise from the ashes of whatever is around it. Give them a shot at running their own place


Can't see Turkey ever being happy about that

[HaveQuick2]

Ever hear of Operation Provide Comfort?
Operation Northern Watch



Yes thanks, been there, done that.


Apparently the Pentagon, MoD etc think this IS newsworthy.

[Hangarshuffle]

Lapdogs still. For what practicable help the UK will really be here. Keep out and away.

[Onceapilot]

Why is that HS? Is it just because it is OOR of any manned present (or future) RN asset? You seem mighty keen to promote anything going on, on the great Ogg or the shoreline!;)

OAP

[MPN11]

And, meanwhile, POTUS starts air strikes on IS[IS] in Northern Iraq ... I'm just faintly puzzled that the US can go and start bombing people without a UN resolution.

Humanitarian issue? The fact that US Forces are nearby? "The War on Terror"? Or just trigger happy?

Perhaps I'm a bit tired of the US shooting everything?

[Onceapilot]

TBH MPN, I would keep those opinions to yourself when "sometimes in KIAD";).

OAP

[alfred_the_great]

Or as requested by the elected leader of Iraq?

[500N]

Just watched the British Def minister on BBC.

"We are there to support others (the US) and conduct food drops of our own"
or words to that effect.

to be honest, it Sounded like the UK was scrambling to wave the flag
and still be heard.

If food drops are required, why wait for the US ? Why not lead from the front
instead of looking like a lap dog ?

[rh200]

Can't see Turkey ever being happy about that

Or Iran.

I'm just faintly puzzled that the US can go and start bombing people without a UN resolution.

Sovereign country asking for assistance, none of the UN's business.

[Hangarshuffle]

Watching the TV news on Friday, I thought very much the same - sad posturing and flag waving from Britain - very little practical the UK can do right now that will seem to affect this. There is little America needs from us at all.
We haven't got the capability to muster large numbers of transport aircraft to drop supplies to the people in need. We haven't got bases to attack from ISIS from and the structure is no longer there for this sort of operation.


American bombing raids are being conducted by F18 fighter bombers from aircraft carriers in the Gulf.
UK government spokesman said we wouldn't be committing anything or anyone to a combat role.
Posting boxes of tea bags and "get well soon" cards would commence after the 5pm collection on Monday 11th August, he might have added, for all the help we will be.
Just as well because everything the west has done, in recent years, seems to have been a disaster for somebody else later on. Iraq, Afghanistan,Syria and Libya are now violent basket cases partly thanks to our servile support of American planning and policies over many years.
Everywhere I look, we seem to have ****** up, massively.

[dctyke]

Mr Blair will sort it all out. Trust the envoy with a track record in the Middle East ! :ugh:

[david parry]

US launches second wave of airstrikes | TheHill (http://thehill.com/policy/defense/214737-us-launches-second-wave-of-airstrikes)

[Courtney Mil]

Oh good...

Britain considers bombing Iraq to avert genocide as hundreds of Yazidi women are taken captive and American carries out SECOND round of airstrikes against ISIS | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2720360/It-s-not-ruled-forever-UK-jets-join-bombing-fanatics-U-S-warplanes-attack-ISIS-positions-Iraq.html)

Islamist militants vow to blow up embassies after Obama launches airstrikes | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2720309/AmessagefromISIStoUS-Islamist-militants-tweet-gruesome-images-dead-American-soldiers-vow-blow-embassies-Obama-launches-airstrikes.html)

[Onceapilot]

HS, Sorry but you are wrong again. The RAF can make supply drops there and, drop bombs there if the UKGov decrees. All without RN support.;)
Also, IMO, we could still have other core capabilities if the RAF wasn't wasting many £Billions on TWO new shiny supa-doopa aircraft projects that we didn't need yet, and the RN wasting many £Billions on two giant war canoes that will not actually do the job! :uhoh:

OAP

[stilton]

Yes, seems like a great idea.


What could go wrong.

[Martin the Martian]

Anyhow, nice to see that the BBC were up to their usual standard of talking about 'strikes carried out by two F/A-18s' while showing footage of... F-16s.:hmm:

Ah well, it was a fast pointy jet thing I suppose.

[golamv]

"A cargo plane has left RAF Brize Norton carrying British humanitarian aid to Iraq, the BBC understands."

BBC News - British aid plane takes off for Iraq (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28722664)

[Ronald Reagan]

If the US had not removed Saddam Hussein in the first place and supported the removal of Assad in neighbouring Syria then we would not be in this mess. Sometimes its better sticking with the devil you know. Actions have consequences and what we see now is a direct result of Gulf War 2 and the attempts by the west to remove Assad. This whole thing is a disaster of our own making. From this point on there are no easy answers. It must be a lesson to us to think far more logically regarding foreign policy in future.

[melmothtw]

British aid plane takes off for Iraq
"A cargo plane has left RAF Brize Norton carrying British humanitarian aid to Iraq, the BBC understands."

BBC News - British aid plane takes off for Iraq

Glad to see this is happening, but not sure how clever it is of the BBC to announce that a British military aircraft is currently on its way to Iraq. It wouldn't take a genius to work out the aircraft's approximate ETA and destination.

I remember during the Libyan intervention being asked by the MoD not to publish 'spotter's' reports of Tornados leaving Marham for the exact same reason that it wouldn't be too hard to set up a nasty 'surprise' for them at the other end, which seemed a sensible and reasonable enough request to myself and my publication.

PS; Welcome back Ronald, you were worryingly quiet for a while....

[Wander00]

Sykes-Picot, 1916. QED!

[Jayand]

We need to steer well clear of this mess.
We tried before and look what happened! Am not against a bit of aid but, any kind of offensive action should be avoided at all cost. Let the buggers get on with it.

[melmothtw]

Let the buggers get on with it.


By 'it' do you mean shoot, crucify, and behead innocent men, women and children?

[Ronald Reagan]

Shame the west is on the same side as ISIL in Syria while being against them in Iraq. Luckily Assad has been fighting these terrible terrorists all along.

[Jayand]

Yes horrific as it is. Why is it our business? We tried before remember and that didn't work too well.
It's about time we realised our place in the world and stopped meddling in the Middle East.

[Ronald Reagan]

Well said Jayand. Just look at the disaster that is modern Libya!
Everything we do there makes things worse.

[langleybaston]

Ourpoliticians do not get it, do they?

1. "save" money by reducing armed forces to a gendarmerie with many essential components for war-fighting missing.

2. Suck up to USA by poking noses into other people's business at no risk to the politicians.

3. Have huge problems extricating which cost more lives and money.

4. return to 1.

THERE IS NO APPETITE WHATSOEVER FOR ADVENTURISM.

[Lyneham Lad]

BBC News are reporting that a second C-130 has left BZN carrying more humanitarian aid. May well be a busy few weeks for the crews (air & ground).

[Courtney Mil]

Ronald, you truly are priceless. If the West intervenes in a potentially massive humanitarian crisis in Iraq, it's aggression and making things worse. When your hero Putin illegally sends troops into Ukraine it's all fair game and Kiev's fault - I think is was June when you stated that Russia was only there to protect the people of East Ukraine. No, the West trying to stop genocide and air dropping food and water is trying to protect people.

:=

[Finningley Boy]

This may be a slight thread drift but yesterday I watched General Sir Peter Wall defend the current status of the Army and how it will look in 2020. This was on BBC Parliament, chaired by Margaret Hodge,I'm not sure if it was the Public Accounts or Defence Committee. But either way, Margaret Hodge seemed to me to be cross at Sir Peter for not managing to pour a pint out of a wine glass.

FB:)

[EESDL]

A chance to off-load all those 12x12s that we have been keeping for so long ;-)
Yes - I do appreciate the seriousness of the situation but for eff sake why can't we ever learn to "play within our own league and stop having to import an overseas player to heighten our league-position chances" - to use a phrase oft said around the local cricket league..........

[melmothtw]

The West is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. But to be clear, if it doesn't right now innocent people will be massacred in their thousands.

Of course, not every country factors such humanitarian considerations into their thinking, do they Ronald?

Oh, and 'we' is fooling no one either old chum.

[Jayand]

Where exactly would we launch air strikes from? We could fly from our carrier strike wing. Oh hang on lol.

[gr4techie]

Shame the west is on the same side as ISIL in Syria while being against them in Iraq. Luckily Assad has been fighting these terrible terrorists all along.

Just change the name of the organisation, the gullible and naive won't know any different. Worked for Afghanistan.

[satpak77]

Couldn't figure out how to post a poll, so my questions are these

Who thinks that this "humanitarian mission" by US forces, along with associated airstrikes, could morph into a larger scale combat action ? Mission creep ? We already had Obama in June say "no troops in Iraq" (I guess Iraq airspace doesn't count ?) and now we have US F-18's bombing targets on Iraq soil.

What happens when a US plane goes down and pilot kidnapped ? Etc ? Or ISIL gets really pissed and pick-your-terrorist-breading ground Syria/Iran/Pakistan/Libya sends ISIL some surface to air missiles or etc heavy grade equipment ?

[PeterGee]

Hodge annoys me with a passion, I can deal with clueless, I can deal with opinionated, but not both together,

[Hangarshuffle]

POTUS is on holiday in Marthas Vinyard. Our MP's are all on holiday. It says it all. And yet they've despatched, yet again, servicemen on both sides of the pond into harms way. This is yet another grade "A " reaction to media reports. I wish everyone safe operations, but we should not intervene.
Incidentally, why cant the Iraq people make a decent fist and fight back themselves against ISIS? Thought we had set the country up for this very thing a few years ago?

[smujsmith]

Satpak77,

What happens when a US plane goes down and pilot kidnapped ?

Head on stick, no mercy shown I expect. If our blokes are going to operate over them, I really think that there should be no "Marquess of Queensbury" rules. Lets just hope the buggers don't get hold of any of our people. Perhaps the situation justifies a real push on the ground to annihilate these Neanderthals. Because, air strikes are not enough to exterminate them (sorry for the Dalek impression).


Smudge

[Rosevidney1]

Meanwhile a crowd reported to be 'in tens of thousands' has been listening to all the usual troublemakers (Tariq Ali anyone?) whipping up support for the poor 'Palestinians' (sic). Not the Hamas led Gazans obviously! I understand they managed to get £4.5 million of which our glorious government chipped in with £2 million. There was a time when I was as patriotic as anyone but now I'm increasingly disgusted with my own country.

[rh200]

If the US had not removed Saddam Hussein in the first place and supported the removal of Assad in neighbouring Syria then we would not be in this mess.

I am loath to have to agree with you on something Ronald, but you are correct. That said I'll repeat my usual mantra, there was nothing relatively wrong with Iraqi before the current twit took to the Whitehouse.

All it needed was time, and the surrounding country's be left alone.

[3 bladed beast]

Of course we are all missing the blinding obvious.

This is all in the 'name' of religion.

A mystical, magical God, up in the sky, promoting free will and not intervening.

Wasn't it in the 7th century when Mohammed heard a voice whilst walking in the desert, then a book written 32 years later and now, 1300+ years later, we still carry on none the wiser.

Awesome.

[HaveQuick2]

Sky News this morning showing footage of an RAF (C-130?) airdropping at night, to the fleeing populace.

[Pontius Navigator]

Sykes-Picot, 1916. QED!
I have a letter, written to my grandfather in 1921, by a trader in Mosul.

He deplored the withdrawal of troops, mainly Indian Army, that had improved conditions since the overthrow of the Ottoman Empire and now the loss of stability and trade.

Air Policing may have been cheaper but they missed the stability of boots on the ground.

A strong colonial or dictatorial control brings stability but our modern self-satisfied democratic world supports the weak. The result is thousands or hundreds of thousands of deaths in the name of freedom. Under the status as quo the masses may live in poverty, but they live.

[Jayand]

Gladrag, your right it could become a global problem. Sadly made worse in the first place by Western intervention.
If Saddam had stayed in power or the West had devised a viable post Saddam plan then none of this would be happening. Our intervention in Afghanistsn will end the same way in s few years and Libya hasn't exactly gone to plan! If we'd got our way in Syria what do you suppose would be happening there?
As well as actually creating environments where extremists can flourish our foreign policies in the middle east have also acted as a great recruitment and propaganda tool.
Anti Western feeling in the Middle East has arguably never been worse since we started meddling!

[Hangarshuffle]

Lord Dannatt: We know the dangers of inaction - the West must intervene in Iraq - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11023847/Lord-Dannatt-We-know-the-dangers-of-inaction-the-West-must-intervene-in-Iraq.html)


He must have had a good bottle of wine last night when he was reading this tripe down the phone to the SundayTorygraph staffer.


We were rocketed out of Basra, chased out in a full defeat, because our "boots on the ground" cant fight off and hold, peacefully and on our terms, plots and swathes at any one time, pieces of Iraq ground, without what the UK publically think are unacceptable casualties of our young lads. I was there and sat in the room in Basra, and heard it myself.


And it will be the same again if we step as much as one little toe back in the region (and the UK Military is in a far worse state now than it was then, even in 2008 and 2009).


The US mil managed to knock out or destroy some fighting vehicles last night and well done to the people who did that, but come on, we are talking about destroying a Viet-Cong style army here? They wont do armoured columns and supply bases etc, they are a flowing, walking dispersed army based on terror-entering villages and killing civilians. We wont win that fighting and strafing from the air, all the ISIS have to do is get back on foot and spread out. And carry on, and on. As a method it works brilliantly.
Only way to possibly stop that is get loads of our young lads on the ground fighting their young lads and that will never happen again. Because its unacceptable to our UK voting, caring public. And the USA too, now.


I don't think NATO led Air Power will defeat ISIS, without a massive, massive effort, which isn't there, and wont come in time anyway-its August..all the leaders are on holiday.
Face it, the Yazidis are looking doomed.

[maxred]

Well I remember well how we were all ridiculed, shot down in flames, for even suggesting that the first Iraqi incursion was a grave error, a grave mistake.

Reap what you sow and all that. Does everybody like what we have now?????


And please spare the, we had to do it, WMD and al that.

This is unwinable. Fact....

Odumbo can bomb all the grains of sand he likes. I doubt he will kill ten ISIS fighters.

[Genstabler]

Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East?
Let me explain.
We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS.
We don’t like ISIS, but ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like.
We don’t like Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but ISIS is also fighting against him.
We don’t like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight against ISIS.
So some of our friends support our enemies, some enemies are now our friends,
and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies, who we want to lose,
but we don’t want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win.
If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less.
And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists
who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out.
It's quite simple, really.

[Brewers Droop]

So to check understand - the enemy of my enemy and the friends of my enemy are my friends, except when they are my enemy...

Got it!

[airsound]

Sky News this morning showing footage of an RAF (C-130?) airdropping at night, to the fleeing populace.
Think Defence has the full video, with the MoD attribution.
RAF Air Drop - Iraq - Think Defence (http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/08/raf-air-drop-iraq/)

airsound

[Not_a_boffin]

And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists
who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out.

And is being perpetuated by adherents to a "religion of peace" which appears to have two branches, each with various state sponsors, who will happily butcher each other till one wins.

I think the problem may actually lie there. Or more precisely with those who are busily funding them.

[Danny42C]

As an unrepentent old Imperialist, I can only say that, if you really want to influence a country, you have to take over its government - by force, if that's the only way. Then rule kindly, if you can; harshly, if you must - but always rule. (I'm aware that this opinion will entail my excommunication from the ranks of the Great, the Good and the Politically Correct).

Any other form of "intervention" will be (a) ineffective, (b) certainly unrewarding and (c) you will probably come out with a bloody nose. The last few hundred years should have taught us that.

If you must "intervene", then go in with a firm purpose and enough military force to impose your will (and some idea of how to get out if it all goes wrong would be helpful, too).

Always remember the Parable of the chap who got rid of one devil and ended up with seven other devils worse than the first. (Aren't we seeing this now ?)

(Oldest Inhabitant subsides muttering into his chair in the corner of the Bar. Another pint, Grandad ?... Thankee kindly, son ! )

[smujsmith]

Danny,

I wouldn't worry overmuch about political correctness. I never experienced a great deal of that during my time in service, as Hangarshuffle says quite well, unless I have misunderstood him, the whole shebang is the result of weak indecisive political leadership, allowing themselves to be driven by their sad need for popularity. Like you, I doubt that "tinkering" from the air will do anything to affect the outcome on the ground, and eventually a serious move, on the ground will be required to eliminate the ISIS plague. It's just a matter of how many innocents the likes of Obama and Camoron are prepared to sacrifice for their summer hols and ineffectual leadership. I also wonder how long before their sympathisers in Britain begin to emulate their heroes in our own country, a la Lee Rigby, the great multicultural experiment has certainly put a Trojan horse in our midst.

Smudge

[Stendec5]

Well said smudge. Also fully concur with your earlier reference to the Daleks. A much maligned race of inter-galactic decidedly non-pc rascals (always fancied myself in the role of Supreme Dalek but err, keep that to yourself)

So, yet more of our best and finest put in the line of fire whilst the vermin in the House of Treason pull the proverbial financial/logistical rug from under their feet.

How do those bastards sleep at night?

[Courtney Mil]

Please don't be Davros. Unless you think this works for you...

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120602041836/tardis/images/2/21/Davros_Stolen_Earth.jpg

[Tashengurt]

I can't help thinking that while we tie ourselves in knots fretting about multiculturalism and human rights those that would do us harm are, bit by bit dismantling our ability to resist them.
Time to wake up and put a name to the threat.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Courtney Mil]

Good point, Tash.

[Stendec5]

Oh no, Cm, Supreme Dalek, NOT that nefarious "Davros" character.

Seriously though. We most seriously HAVE a Fifth Column in our midst these days made all the more problematic by a student-level idiot "I'm young enough to know EVERYTHING" mentality that prevades the vermin in the corridors of
lunacy.
Oh Winston. What would YOU do...were you with us???

[500N]

Er, didn't Churchill make some major blunders when he was young ?

[Genstabler]

Didn't we all?

[rh200]

Blunders, changing sides, enemy of my enemy is my friend, compromises, nothing changed since the dawn of time then!

This all started when, no it didn't yes it did, around the merry go round we go, as we all try to win the battle of opinion on what history will show. At the end of the day, that history will be written by the victor with "good fact"

[Pontius Navigator]

Sadly you can't eliminate an idea, at least not during the term of a democratic Government, especially one rooted in the 8th Century.

[Brewers Droop]

True Pontias - which is a real worry because Social Media in the 21C allows ideas to spread globally on the click of a mouse rather than at the pace of an advancing army. Even if their Caliphate ideals and barbarian methods were built before and during a time when Saladin and Richard the Lionheart were fighting each other, ISIS today are not limited by the range of a crossbow and endurance of a horse. They can send their medieval ideals right into the living room of every sympathizer across the Globe. They can exploit the checks and balances of modern Democracy knowing we can only fight them within the constraints of domestic and international law and when in the right phase of an Election Cycle. Meanwhile, the sympathizer within our midst can jump on a budget airline and join the real fight or start a fire in his own (our) backyard. And then you add in Sunni v Shia, Persian v Arab, East v West and a few ‘minor mistakes’ by you know who in drawing lines down maps.
Overall, its a battle we still haven’t learnt how to fight. Then again, perhaps their weakness is they have now given themselves a name. Like AQ, we now have ‘something’ to label and strike for the next 10 years until a new mutation comes along. And I have no doubt the less democratic Governments also now have a new label they can use on anyone they don't like.
There is a role for the military and air power in all this buts its part of a gigantic bag of tricks that goes well beyound the military. It is my personal view the military and Security Services can only treat the symptoms by holding the line against any physical threat to provide a breathing space for other to act, but its people as diverse as computer nerds, social workers in an emigrant community, moderate religious leaders and even parents who need to fight this one...
What a Mess…
BP

[MSOCS]

Under the umbrella of a withdrawing/reducing ME presence after nearly 25 years of Western operations in the region, this has been a well-timed incursion by ISIS. Relatively un-opposed thus far, I personally agree that swift and overwhelming action is required to stem the influence but this has all the hallmarks of drawing us into another Afghanistan-style conflict with no fixed end. The outcome would still be a self-governing, strong, democratic Iraq but I remain sceptical it can be achieved - it certainly won't be done through sole use of air strikes as others here have said.

This is already a mess. It can only get worse without Western intervention.

The problem the British military are cut to such a small scale these days that one has to ask "who can we send?!" The Times article today says our Tory MPs are crying to send UK jets.

[Pontius Navigator]

When we label these people, a BRITON from Portsmouth, the press prints a picture so we all know what he really was.

When the press says many are from South Asia, where is that? On my Atlas that means Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, at a pinch, Sri Lanka, really?

[Hangarshuffle]

In todays Telegraph pretty heartrending stories about the plight of the ordinary victims of this colossal failure.
Also, the PM refuses to reconvene UK Parliament, whilst his erstwhile arch rival the Mayor of London and soon to be an MP , advocates much further protective measures for the Kurdish population. He means the UK fighting for them, I think - "do everything in our power". Be interesting if he ever makes it as PM.


It would be an utter tragedy if we did not defend the Kurds - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11024873/It-would-be-an-utter-tragedy-if-we-did-not-defend-the-Kurds.html)


It sort of surprises me that the western intelligence agencies are so caught on the hop by all of this - probably they weren't - they must have been able to spot the signs of this offensive, and warned accordingly, but were possibly simply ignored. More probably that western politicians and leaders have ignored the cues for a variety of reasons - Obama wants to leave a legacy that no combat soldiers are deployed again on his last term, Cameron wants be elected again and another war, on his watch, wont advance that cause. Other Europeans have neither the means or the support to go it alone.
I wonder what Putin makes of all of this? Has he taken a stance? I'm more interested, and tend to actually listen to what he says, more than our own side.I always remember Blair's sickly face when Putin stood alongside him and said there were categorically no weapons of mass destruction within Iraq, pre March 2003. He would know.


Also genuine question, where does everybody with a grudge against a non believer get the high amounts of arms and ammunition to fight these wars anyway? I mean ISIS, Kurds - how do they acquire them? Is it not simpler to eliminate and expose the source, dry out the flow? Pressurize the suppliers? Or is that rocking the boat a bit too much?

[skydiver69]

Also genuine question, where does everybody with a grudge against a non believer get the high amounts of arms and ammunition to fight these wars anyway? I mean ISIS, Kurds - how do they acquire them?

'Friends' in Qatar, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, as well as weapons looted from both the Syrian and Iraqi governments and taken from weaker allies/other rebel groups.

[500N]

When the press says many are from South Asia, where is that? On my Atlas that means Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, at a pinch, Sri Lanka, really? Indonesia for one. They have healthy extreme Muslim groups, although the Indonesians have been giving them a good whack over the last 5 years.

They don't suffer from the west's inhibitions about opening fire so to speak :ok:

Edit
Jemaah Islamiah - Southeast Asian militant Islamist terrorist organization dedicated to the establishment of a Daulah Islamiyah (regional Islamic caliphate) in Southeast Asia.

[Pontius Navigator]

Also, the PM refuses to reconvene UK Parliament,


Actually what would he achieve by recalling parliament?

How many party hacks would cut short their holidays in Cardiff or the Caribbean?

COBRA and the COS are quite capable of setting the ball rolling. While his friend is still on the golf course, Dave is hardly likely to offer more than the great one has committed.

[Hangarshuffle]

Well possibly (in answer to PN, playing Devils Advocate), 1.We are partly responsible for the current crisis in that we left a terrible vacuum, and I believe many in the world community are even now still looking for the USA and the UK to supply some sort of answer and lead (both also being Permanent members of the UN security council). 2.We are a committing our Armed Forces to humanitarian aid in a very dangerous part of the world with a real risk for the aircrews/SF involved- is this not worthy of recall alone, or is everyone so now blasé and used to UK casualties on operations they simply no longer really care and (b) anyway what are the parameters here of the aid? 3. There would be a possibility that this could badly escalate, and UK will look even further flat footed. 4. UK media pressure and public debate is intense and will increase. 5. Many people feel uneasy about the Iraq war, our responsibility therein, how we left it -maybe a debate would help where we are now. 6. It wouldn't hurt. We always need leadership, guidance, direction,debate - is this not partially the role of Parliament, of our MPs?


Is so called COBRA (you all its just a room really), the people with up to it, to be left the responsibility?


The PM doesn't want to reconvene, not because he minds his holidays disrupted (this is his second at least) but because its a splitter for his backbenchers and he may again look weak (see Syria bombing last). (Britain is weak militarily anyway these recent years and this again this would be an opportunity for mischief from his enemies on all benches).
But its a balancing act for him - the pictures of the dead children, women, innocents are very hard for politicians to deal with.


But I fully concede recalling Parliament may bring nothing useful at all. Just more hot air.

[Pontius Navigator]

500N, my point, as I am sure you realised, is not that some Indonesians might be fighting in the Middle East, but that 'Asian' and 'South Asian' blackens hundreds of millions of ordinary people when we really mean something else.

We all know the country from whence the largest contingent is drawn from even if they are now known as Britons.

HS, quite, though of course Parliament might do what they did for Syria.

BTW, is there still a problem with Syria?

Last week's news was Hamas and Israel and that now seems to be replaced by Iraq. Libya and Syria are so last month. As for Egypt, that must be a sea of tranquillity.

[Blue Bottle]

British To Use RAF Tornados In Iraq Mission (http://news.sky.com/story/1316849/british-to-use-raf-tornados-in-iraq-mission)

[Ronald Reagan]

Just another sign of how useless these politicians we have are. I broadly support the idea of helping the civilians of Iraq as our past actions are what have left them in this terrible situation. So now they need the Tornado GR4, such a shame that 12sq, 13sq, 14sq and 617sq have all been disbanded recently by the very same politicians who now want to use them. This will put a lot of pressure on the remaining three squadrons. I will say it again, these politicians are just useless.

[downsizer]

Let's not forget of those 3, 1 is fully in Herrick, 1 is prepping to go to Herrick, one has not long returned from Herrick and is due to disband.

[Ronald Reagan]

Very true downsizer, simply insane isn't it.

[Prangster]

What are they going to deliver hellfire and Brimstone!

[Onceapilot]

I refer you honourable gentlemen to my oft repeated comments: Why have we wasted £billions to introduce a tanker we didn't need yet, more £billions for two giant war canoes that will not actually do what we need (in 6 years' time!) and, even more £billions for a (very) few aircraft to put on them? In the mean time, we have dumped many of the assets we actually need!:ugh:

OAP

[Hangarshuffle]

I thought tonight, fantastic - I word I wouldn't use lightly. Iraq helicopter aircrew battled in to that mountain, dropped water, picked up 25, fought and flew back out, returning fire as they went even at 3 or 4000 feet. Covered well at great risk by the C4 reporter and cameramen, a veteran of 1991.
Looking at those kids on the helicopter, hard not for my previous non intervention stance to slacken.
I mean WTF? its not even that far from the Turkish border.


Also RM Dunlop from 1991 on BBC Radio 4 news this evening, good summary I thought.

[500N]

Hangar

I was watching that video somewhere else.

At the end as they took off, was there a kid hanging onto the Weapon stand that stuck out of the door and was dragged in ?

Thought it was pretty gutsy all round :ok:

[Roland Pulfrew]

Why have we wasted £billions to introduce a tanker we didn't need yet

OAP: let it go. We most certainly did/do need a new tanker. The VC10s were past it and the Trishaw were pretty close behind. We might have got another 5 years out of them, maybe, but we still needed a replacement and your beloved Trijet couldn't fill the requirement!

more £billions for two giant war canoes that will not actually do what we need (in 6 years' time!)

Regardless of whether we need them now or in 6 years, there is a physical reality here: it takes years to design, build, conduct training and complete sea trials. The carriers, whether or not you believe in the requirement, will be worked up and ready to accept their aircraft when (if) JSF ever arrives.

Can't disagree with your last point though: the RN have mortgaged their future on 2 very big shiny new toys; whilst the RAF have mortgaged their future on a (wrong-type of) 5th gen fighter/bomber.

[Ronald Reagan]

The key question regarding the carriers is how many F-35s will we get?! Probably only have about 6 embark on a cruise. It will just be another very costly PR exercise, a token to show that we are with Washington, that we are strong, that we are important, that our leaders have real power.

[500N]

Iraq PM Malaki gone, new PM sounds a bit more robust in dealing with ISIS.

[Willard Whyte]

I'd happily send a few dozen of these to the Iraqi Army

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/m1_type_flamethrower.jpg

[oldmansquipper]

There must be a load of surplus A-10s sitting in desert storage these days..How about pulling them out and letting all those out of work Harrier mates have something to keep current on?

[Courtney Mil]

Ronald, when you say "our leaders", of whom are you talking?

[Hangarshuffle]

Minister quits because £120,000 salary and expenses is not enough to support his family in London - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11027010/Minister-quits-because-120000-salary-and-expenses-is-not-enough-to-support-his-family-in-London.html)


This is the second UK Conservative Government Foreign Minister to resign in one week. Just when we need their brains, ability and leadership, Lincolnshire and the little squealers become more important.
Whose in charge in Britain now the PM's on the beach? Is it Clegg? He seems very absent also.

[melmothtw]

Ronald, when you say "our leaders", of whom are you talking?

Ha ha, I was just thinking the exact same thing. In your past three posts Ronald you have said 'we/our' six times! Stop trying so hard, the gig was up a long time ago.

[mole man]

If the RAF are sending fast jets to the sand will the tankers go and the Falklands airbridge go out to tender again???????

Mole Man:ok:

[Selatar]

Downsizer,

All is well. Of our 3 x GR4 Sqns; 31 have just stagged on for the last turn of the handle in Kandahar, IX (B) are just back and on leave, leaving shiny II as our deployable force element. Sorted. Best hurry up though as the sqn disbands in 7 months....

[Blue Bottle]

3 have left UK, more to follow if BBC are on the nail. No mention of tanker support yet but guess it has to happen.

BBC News - RAF Tornado jets leave UK for Iraq aid mission (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28758370)

[langleybaston]

had a bright thought listening to the gnus.

"why is not Switzerland [for example] "doing something about it". [Whatever "it" is].

Never mind the government being commitment-phobic, most of the country are commitment-phobic".

[Blue Bottle]

The RAF shopping list grows:

Britain considers sending Chinook helicopters to aid fleeing Yazidi refugees in Iraq as the public swings behind air strikes on rampaging Islamic State fighters | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2723010/Britain-considers-sending-Chinook-helicopters-aid-fleeing-Yazidi-refugees-Iraq-public-swings-air-strikes-rampaging-Islamic-State-fighters.html)

[2Planks]

Based at Akkers - going to be some long sorties and 'interesting routing'. Hope Voyager is ready to go....

[500N]

The video of the other aid being dropped by Helicopter,
I think an Iraqi one.

They said it came under fire and they showed video of the gunner firing his weapon,
does that mean the Chinooks are likely to be armed ?

[Uncle Ginsters]

Based at Akkers - going to be some long sorties and 'interesting routing'. Hope Voyager is ready to go....


Not really...any tanker pilot with some hours behind him will know it well from the days of Res North/Northern Watch.

Shame our C17s aren't cleared CDS airdrop - 40 at a time vs the C130's 16(?) might be quite useful.

[Gerontocrat]

What is discipline/control like on the ground?
Will any Rocks be deployed with the Wokkas?
If so, what ROE will they have?
All serious questions and all linked.

[500N]

Edit
I just noticed a news flash that one of the Mi-17 helicopters crashed on take off
due to too many people climbed on board. Very sad.


I found the video I was referring to above.

This also shows the level of "discipline/control like on the ground?"

The kid holding onto the gun as the Helicopter takes off and
is pulled inside when they are airborne is at 1.35 onwards.

pMgPaAUxwvU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMgPaAUxwvU

[Gerontocrat]

I found the video i was referring to above.

This also shows the level of "discipline/control like on the ground?"

The kid holding onto the gun as the Helicopter takes off and
is pulled inside when they are airborne is at 1.35 onwards.

pMgPaAUxwvU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMgPaAUxwvU

I can't access that at the moment, but can only presume it's pretty chaotic, hence my supplementary questions.
I witnessed such chaotic scenes on several missions with 18 Sqn at the start of Haven.

[500N]

Gerontocrat

I would say it is chaotic but anything out of normal military
methods I would say was chaotic.


Not sure about the gunner firing his MG and whether that was just for the camera to make good footage,
maybe someone with good experience can pass judgement on it.

[2Planks]

Uncle G


I have the ultimate faith in the Brize crews - just hope the rest of the system is up to it. At least its relatively benign and a couple of handy divs in Turkey (Dipclrs permitting!) it should prove to be a good test.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ex-Min Def in now defacto leader. Out of the flying pan . . .

Chickens and roost or petards hoisted spring to mind.

========

On aircraft on carriers, a former captain of Arc opinind that on the US model the new carriers should have 65 aircraft.

[smujsmith]

I rather suspect that the lower slopes of that mountain, where the IS scum are, would be very happy hunting grounds for both Apache and AC-130U 'Spooky II' aircraft, on NVG missions. I rather think that its time some grit was shown by taking the fight to these low lives, and give them some "run but can't hide" treatment. Meanwhile, the lads and lasses in theatre seem to be performing well. What else should we expect ? Ahh, political will!

Smudge:ok:

[Tashengurt]

Totally agree Smudge. I think we're all sick of throwing lives away on piecemeal operations. Time for the governments of the world to commit to sorting this out once and for all.

[Hangarshuffle]

Humanitarian aid mission morphs into a limited support, longer term limited air war conflict?
The PM, and the UK Governments response to this has baffled me for days.




No new Iraq war, Cameron says - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11040680/No-new-Iraq-war-Cameron-says.html)


Cant believe the way politicians trot out these glib, sound-bite statements for the public such as boots on the ground.
He must not be receiving the correct sort of briefings. There must be quite a few such items of UK footwear on the said ground by now - would be disappointed in the UK military if there weren't.
I imagine by now, reading this, all sorts of RAF and others assets are working flat out on this complete 180 degree turn stratergy by the UK Government. Tornado aircraft, Rivet Joint (?), supply aircraft, helicopters, special forces, paratroopers, spies.......
We have effectively declared a war, if limited, upon the group ISIS.
They wont be so limited in their response to us, which is also what the PM appears to be saying.
In response from them, I expect more bloody carnage on the streets of the UK soon from this passport holding enemy who now live or dwell in high numbers within our lovely island. Why hasn't parliament been recalled for this. Where is our mandate to intervene? Should there be vote on the H of C upon it? What are the exact terms, limit of our support?
Can you have a limited conflict, or war? Do nations who embark upon them generally win these conflicts? Are we now in a sort of, hate to say it, like a limited conflict such as the UK endured against the IRA in the 1970's to the 1990's? Can American Air Power with limited UK support thwart ISIS? All of this needs to be carefully debated and thought through at the very highest level by the UK civ and mil leadership, but I just wonder about them all.

[500N]

Hangar

"sound-bite statements for the public such as boots on the ground."

Yes, and then I read today that 120 more SF Troops are on the way
and soldiers from the York Regiment ? are already there.

Yep, No boots on the ground !

[air pig]

Tash:

Totally agree Smudge. I think we're all sick of throwing lives away on piecemeal operations. Time for the governments of the world to commit to sorting this out once and for all.

Maybe the way to do it is either, let each side slaughter the other and end responding to the 'something must be done' lobby, or warn the big players behind the scene in the Arab and Persian world, either stop your support and funding or we turn your countries into glass.

We do not want anymore young people being repatriated through Brize Norton or worse on to be captured and tortured and beheaded on live television.

Time to stay out and let the locals sort it out themselves.

[melmothtw]

Time to stay out and let the locals sort it out themselves.

Of course, the major flaw in that plan is that ISIS is not a 'local' movement, but instead has declared its intent to found a global caliphate.

Sooner or later we will have to confront them, like it or not.

[Party Animal]

I wish our current Govt had the balls to direct the police to do some 'confronting' with the Oxford Street local ISIS movement that was trying to recruit fresh membership over the last few days.

How much longer can our British be nice to everyone policy stand up in the face of clear cut and unambiguous ISIS recruiting drives going on in the centre of London?

[Hempy]

Time to stay out and let the locals sort it out themselves.

Of course, the major flaw in that plan is that ISIS is not a 'local' movement, but instead has declared its intent to found a global caliphate.

Sooner or later we will have to confront them, like it or not.

IS needs to get past Israel before they take on world domination. Good luck with that one.

[Jayand]

"Sooner or later we will have to confront them, like it or not."
We will have to? why is that then? I can think of a handful of large, rich and capable countries in the region/neighbouring Iraq itself that can and should be leading this fight.
Saudi Arabia, principally should be leading the middle east to put down this uprising.
We, don't need to do anything!:mad:

[500N]

Jay

Agree re other states, inc SA.

[NutLoose]

Cant believe the way politicians trot out these glib, sound-bite statements for the public such as boots on the ground.


What has happened to his sidekick? He used to roll out Nick Clegg for all the political hot potatoes while hiding in the background.
I've also noticed of late he blurts out stuff for No 10 to correct it and say "what he actually meant was"
He did similar rattling off some huge investment when his figures actually included that which was previously budgeted.

[melmothtw]

Saudi et al are part of the problem, not the solution. Where do you think the extreme ideology and the funding come from?

Some more moderate regional countries, like Jordan, are being bolstered by the West but time will tell what effect that has on slowing ISIS.

As for Israel, no doubt they will be drawn in at some point (of ISIS's choosing), but there are land routes from Syria/Iraq into Europe and (almost) North Africa that completely bypass Israel.

Maybe we won't ever have to confront ISIS, but that sounds more like wishful thinking than anything else.

[500N]

As for Israel, no doubt they will be drawn in at some point
(of ISIS's choosing)

I think that is called suicide.

[Ronald Reagan]

The terrorists fighting us now? We just finished training them. - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/18/the-terrorists-fighting-us-now-we-just-finished-training-them/)

[Hangarshuffle]

Made some fairly strange sound-bite statements for the press this afternoon, he said it all seemed perfectly clear (in his little pink faced annoyed-voice way), and has now gone on another holiday (this time to Cornwall, so my commiserations with that one anyway). COBRA, a room wherein an unelected committee (which has had it amazingly wrong in the recent past and has been caught as flat footed as a tortoise on this one) sits, and apparently has it all in hand.
And so, in the month of August yet again, I fear we will head towards more loss of precious young UK lives, mark my words.
Dimwits all.


Hope you are wrong Melmoth, but you may be on the money.

[Ronald Reagan]

BBC News - Libya crisis: Unidentified planes 'bomb' Tripoli (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28840655)

[Hangarshuffle]

Looking at UK Channel 4 news tonight the UK mil support for this is as follows. Tornado Aircraft (6)? Supporting Tanker Aircraft. I presume Hercules C130 still doing what they do. Other UK supply aircraft gathering weaponry and ammunition from around Europe for delivery to the Kurds. A Rivet Joint Aircraft and probably drone aircraft for surveillance and support over N Iraq. Undoubtedly UK SF (Boots on the ground, but they aren't) and probably much more than that in other units.(Yorkshire Regt got a mention).
All of this one can gleam by reading the various newspapers, I'm not looking for confirmation because I understand the OPSEC involved - but its quite a sizeable package really.
Many service people at risk - they should recall Parliament and have a national debate - this is a shameful drift and escalation.

[500N]

Seems to me that the west seems to lurch from one short term action to another.

COBRA meets, decides on an action, micro manages the military instead of letting them get on with it, COBRA meets, decides on another action but scaled up, micro manages the military instead of letting them get on with it and so it goes on.

[air pig]

Hangershuffle:

Looking at UK Channel 4 news tonight the UK mil support for this is as follows. Tornado Aircraft (6)? Supporting Tanker Aircraft. I presume Hercules C130 still doing what they do. Other UK supply aircraft gathering weaponry and ammunition from around Europe for delivery to the Kurds. A Rivet Joint Aircraft and probably drone aircraft for surveillance and support over N Iraq. Undoubtedly UK SF (Boots on the ground, but they aren't) and probably much more than that in other units.(Yorkshire Regt got a mention).
All of this one can gleam by reading the various newspapers, I'm not looking for confirmation because I understand the OPSEC involved - but its quite a sizeable package really.
Many service people at risk - they should recall Parliament and have a national debate - this is a shameful drift and escalation.

And the duty spearhead battlegroup is preparing for deployment into Poland, talk about spreading forces thinly.

[Lyneham Lad]

And the duty spearhead battlegroup is preparing for deployment into Poland, talk about spreading forces thinly.

Dont'cha know that we have the world's fourth largest defence budget? Ergo there must be lots of troops, tanks and aircraft sitting around doing not a lot...


Hat, coat, door

[Typhoon93]

Dont'cha know that we have the world's fourth largest defence budget? Ergo there must be lots of troops, tanks and aircraft sitting around doing not a lot...

Sounds about right. It would be nice if the current government stopped destroying the UKAF.

[MPN11]

Saudi et al are part of the problem, not the solution. Where do you think the extreme ideology and the funding come from?

Not the Governments, of course. Just some of the hyper-rich individuals of a particular offshoot/sect of Islam.

Now ICBA to read all of this link (which doesn't work - Google Shia–Sunni relations ) ... it just indicates how bizarre some of the disagreements are. The fact remains that that are all, of whichever sect, making the Catholic/Protestant conflicts of the last millennium look like a squabble over who should have the last potato at Sunday Lunch.

[500N]

Interesting article from that clear thinker, General Mike Rose saying what a lot of us have been saying.

I fear our panic stricken politicians are leading us into another bloody shambles in Iraq, by GENERAL SIR MICHAEL ROSE | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2729438/I-fear-panic-stricken-politicians-leading-bloody-shambles-Iraq-GENERAL-SIR-MICHAEL-ROSE.html)

[Robert Cooper]

Good article.

Bob C :ok:

[Wander00]

Probably best CGS we never had, and stepson of one of my favourite authors, John Masters

[500N]

I was always surprised he never got the top job but being outspoken
might have cost him.

Had a hell of a run as a Soldier - Ireland, Iranian Embassy, Falklands, Bosnia.

I think he was the General who refused to obey and order from ? someone in NATO ? and got away with it. A while since I read it.

[ORAC]

No, that was General Mike Jackson (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1562161/Gen-Sir-Mike-Jackson-My-clash-with-Nato-chief.html)

[Danny42C]

We never learn. I've filched from Wiki:

"In 1843 British army chaplain G.R. Gleig wrote a memoir of the disastrous (First) Anglo-Afghan War, of which he was one of the very few survivors. He wrote that it was....." :

"......a war begun for no wise purpose, carried on with a strange mixture of rashness and timidity, brought to a close after suffering and disaster, without much glory attached either to the government which directed, or the great body of troops which waged it. Not one benefit, political or military, was acquired with this war. Our eventual evacuation of the country resembled the retreat of an army defeated.[11]" (Sound familiar ?)

And now we hear, in all the Media, the universal lament about What Must be Done, and Should be Done, and What Needs to be Done, and the assembled Might of the UN and Security Council has been invoked, and evildoers tremble (?). And our Home Secretary announces that Further Legislation will be introduced..... (Small Mouse pipes up: "But who'll Bell the Cat ?" )

The brutal fact is that President Assad will have to be brought on board before anything can happen, for we cannot, and President Obama will not, put "boots on the ground", and ISIS will not be defeated in any other way. That we do not like him, and that he was yesterday's "baddie", is irrelevant. Seventy years ago we did not like Stalin very much, but we were glad to have Russia as our "Gallant Ally".

And:
"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons." - (Winston Churchill).

Your enemy's enemy is your friend !

[rh200]

The problem is, we should never have encouraged the Syrian opposition in the first place. Assad and his regime where fairly benign by middle eastern standards, and would have evolved on a much shorter time scale than most of the other states In the middle east.

Him and his missus loved a bit of the western way, so was easily manipulable within reason.

Now whats done is done, and frankly needs to be fixed. Personally I would like to see some groveling back up to him and Western boots on the ground.
Personally I think stop fighting against him, and our troops on the ground in Northen Iraqi.

[500N]

rh

You might get your wish.

The Chairman of the Joint chiefs effectively said that IF ISIS threatened the US, then he thinks the US should go in and take them out lock stock and barrel in Syria and Iraq including boots on the ground and he would think the US Pres would think and do likewise.

He also said that at present it is a local issue but if the US did go in he would hope Saudi, Jordan one other would join the effort.

That's the most forthright thing I have seen said in a long while.

[Hempy]

Your enemy's enemy is your friend !

Danny, with all due deference and respect, I think in 2014 things aren't quite so simple anymore.

Lets take the last 40 years. Vietnam and South East Asia I don't even consider.

We have the US arming, training and assisting the mujahideen in Afghanistan against the USSR...including one Osama bin Laden.

The less extremist ones later just joined the Taliban.

We have the US arming and assisting Saddam's Iraq against the Ayatollah's Iran....an Iran armed with F-4 Phantoms and F-14 Tomcats that the US armed the Shah's Iran with in the first place.

Libya, Syria, Israel, the list goes on.

The enemy of my enemy is NOT necessarily my friend anymore. In fact, he may become a far worse enemy than my enemy.

That doesn't answer anything, I know. It's just a fact.

[Lonewolf_50]

I wish to point out that some serious trouble began in Bosnia and other parts of "Former Yugoslavia" which elicited international/forgeign intervention.

NATO and US and various other sorts of troops and other assistance were still there in the mid 00's, and IIRC still in 2008.

Iraq is as yet not quite as mature as the Former Republics in terms of stabilizing their internal issues, so if any foreigners are to go in and or remain in Syria and / or Iraq, you would expect it to be for at least as long as in Bosnia, if not longer, since both Iraq and Syria a quite a bit bigger as problems to resolve goes. The US was in Iraq for 7-8 years ... and that was very expensive in terms of blood and treasure, as well as still a work in progress at best.

Maybe our governments ought to take a good hard look at the various lessons of the Former Yugoslavia break up issues and see what that predicts for any international efforts in Syria and / or Iraq.

I say this because one of my key frustrations with the Bush(43) administration is that Bosnia was still ongoing when we went into Iraq in 2003, and it was bloody obvious to me that the lessons of the ongoing in Bosnia seemed to not be folded into the plan for Iraq ... I think because it was "Clintons' war" and they didn't like Bill Clinton. A data point in support of my guess here is how General Shinseki was treated when he tried to tell DoD and President how much effort it would take to achieve their objectives. His premature departure speaks volumes to me, particuarly since he was doing his job as Chief of Staff of the Army in doing a thorough staff estimate on the Op Plan. (Some very good friends of mine spent far too many seven day weeks in DC/Pentagon working on that matter ... )

Further comments vigorously :mad:

[500N]

General Shinseki

Not listening to him cost the a heap of troops, a lot of time, money and effort and Ultimately Iraq itself.

The Sec being pig headed.

[rh200]

Posted this on the Ukraine thread, all interrelated.

Syrian gov?t demands US seek permission for airstrikes, as flare-ups rise across Mideast | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/25/syrian-govt-demands-us-seek-permission-for-airstrikes-as-flare-ups-rise-across/)

What a wicked web we weave.

State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said on Monday. Asked specifically whether the U.S. would have permission to act in Syria, she said: "I think when American lives are at stake, when we're talking about defending our own interests, we're not looking for the approval of the Syrian regime."


I wonder how she would feel if Russia openly conducted air strikes in Ukraine to protect its interests?

To be honest, the sudden expansion of ISIS just as the Ukraine thing hotted up, makes me wonder if they had a little guidance from Russia. It sure has the Yanks tied up in a bit of a not. Though the ISIS bit does give Obama a excuse to not get to involved in the Ukraine issue.

Maybe we should just start a combined thread named "Obamas Dyke and how many fingers does he have?" (no not his wife)":p.

[dagenham]

Seems the UAE does have cojones...

BBC reporting I identified jets made air strikes on Libya without us approval. Fragments of GBU bomb casing found.... Us not happy that fighters they have sold are being used

[500N]

Us not happy that fighters they have sold are being used

I did chuckle at the comment "without US consultation" in the newspaper report here in Aus.

Other reports say the UAE and Turkey reports are not true.

[Danny42C]

Stiil, small voice: "ISIS seems to have turned into ISIL overnight. What might this signify ?" :confused:

[minigundiplomat]

I say this because one of my key frustrations with the Bush(43) administration is that Bosnia was still ongoing when we went into Iraq in 2003, and it was bloody obvious to me that the lessons of the ongoing in Bosnia seemed to not be folded into the plan for Iraq ... I think because it was "Clintons' war" and they didn't like Bill Clinton.Your view of history seems to differ from my recollection; the problems with Bosnia stemmed from the fact that Bill Clinton wouldn't get involved in Bosnia and it was only after he'd zipped up the Lewinsky saga (pun intended) and there had been several dozen massacres and atrocities committed that the Dayton Accord was agreed and the US put boots on the ground in the Balkans as part of NATO.

For 2 years or so, Bill Clinton avoided any attempt to deploy ground troops and US involvement was nearly entirely aerial.

Therefore, any reference to the Balkans as 'Clintons War' would be a little disingenuous.

[Lonewolf_50]

Minigun, you are somewhat mistaken. The Lewinski saga came AFTER the US was already in Bosnia, boots on the ground. Check, your years, mate, the winter of 1995 is when US Army units road the rails and roads into Bosnia, and the fall of 1995 was when Dayton Agreement got hammered out. The blue dress and the blow job was after that, and the criticism on him was more closely linked to later operations in terms of that whole "wag the dog" mess. The year 1998 was when the Monica thing came to a head, so to speak.

Clinton wanted to get into Bosnia to help out sooner than he was able to. He tried to but he ran into trouble with Congress, blue helmets (backlash from the mess in Somalia, see also the Michael New case) and the funding of US ops (no the world's policeman anymore, Cold War is over) between 1991 and the eventual decision to get involved after the Dayton Agreement.

One of many problems to overcome with Congress vis a vis a Bosnia operation sooner was the already fecked up UN RoE dual key stupidity. The more rational argument was that you can't keep the peace if there is not first a peace keeping agreement. (That was actually a good point). Dayton put that to bed and in we went, under NATO RoE and not so much UN interference in basic functions. Note that in September of 1995 USS Normandy launched Tomahawks on Serbian air defense positions, which got the French and Russians crying for some political reason or other. That was also under Bill Clinton, and Admiral "Snuffy" Smith.

There were other issues that got domestic political opponents arguing against direct intervention. Some of this stemmed from Bosnia being the usual messy UN operation (UN was into Bosnia long before the US showed up with big units in NATO ... and there were some US support folks supporting UNISOM and UNPROFOR previously ...).

Before our boots were on the ground in Northern Bosnia, ops as Sharp Fence and Maritime Guard finally merged to become Operation Sharp Guard. (The arms embargo on FY had been supported by the US for some time).

It was very much "Clinton's War" to some partisans in the GOP, as was the Kosovo thing. The fact that he finally got some bipartisan support after a few years of trying is, of course, overlooked by same partisans in the GOP ... my own criticism of Clinton on Bosnia at the time was the impression he left of being led around the world by the nose by one CNN reporter named Christiana Amanpour. I am off topic, so I'll save that for another time.

The President who unequivocally would NOT go into Bosnia was President George H W Bush. He passed the torch, as well as the mess in Somalia, to Clinton in January of 1993.

[Hangarshuffle]

Just got a feeling. Western politicians got away with the big story from ten days ago with those poor ****ers stuck on the mountain. That's now off the front pages and telly, replaced by those poor abused kids in Rotherham ( a more suitable place to carpet bomb anyway perhaps, out of kindness to the rest of the UK)?
Its a just a great game, indulged in by Cameron and President Bam Bam when it suits. Western Combat pilots involved in this are smart guys but also sporadically disabused muppets (or even puppets).

[Hangarshuffle]

David Cameron mulls joining Obama in bombing Isis in Iraq | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/27/david-cameron-mulls-joining-obama-bombing-isis)


I mean it must be ******* awful to be an RAF combat pilot involved with this, with your mission orders coming from our present leader.


David Cameron mulls.....it says it all. This is the UK's PM who has yawned and stretched his way off a Cornish beach and finally and reluctantly trailed back to number 10,like a petulant child forced back to his school desk.
And what's on the table for him this week? A decision ( possibly a life and death one for someone, but that will be someone David doesn't know, and probably a little person anyway.
My guess he will lean over and copy (eventually) the child next to him, and that will be his snooty cool friend, President Bam Bam, of course. Bombs will reign.
Also on (year four now, remember) David's desk this term is the break up of the Union. Tricky one, that. On his watch, in a few days now, historically for ever noted, the whole state may begin to break up.....
People are launched onto missions, lives ruined, war continues and we have David Cameron actually, seemingly with good peoples lives in his hands. I just find this utterly depressing and totally incredible.


******* good luck, whoevers still serving whatever we now are.

[GreenKnight121]

Stiil, small voice: "ISIS seems to have turned into ISIL overnight. What might this signify ?" :confused:

It means that the press & politicians pulled their heads out and finally began referring to ISIL by the correct acronym - as some have been doing from day one.

Its been interesting to switch between national network news shows in the US and hear one anchor refer to ISIS and on the other network the anchor telling the same story about ISIL.

The al-Qaeda offshoot is confusingly known by three names: Islamic State, ISIS and ISIL – but a terrorism expert says they have got their branding spot on.

The murderous group, which now has around 50,000 fighters in Syria and 30,000 in Iraq according to August 2014 figures from the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, until recently used the full Arabic name Al-Dawla Al-Islamiya fi al-Iraq wa al-Sham - the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham.
In June, the terror group declared a caliphate - an Islamic state led by a supreme religious and political leader - and began using the simplified name 'Islamic State'.

News organisations, presidents, prime ministers and other world leaders are currently using a mixture of three different names to reference the organisation which is essentially one movement.


The name ISIS – the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria - is used by American news organisations such as the New York Times and L.A. Times.

International publications such as The Guardian also use ISIS and the BBC uses a combination of ISIS and Islamic State.
In a recent report condemning the group, the United Nations referred to the group as ISIS and by its original name.


‘Forces of the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham have committed torture, murder, acts tantamount to enforced disappearance and forced displacement as part of attacks on the civilian population in Aleppo and Raqqa provinces, amounting to crimes against humanity,’ it said.


The U.S. government, including President Obama, the Pentagon, and the State Department, uses ISIL which stands for Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
The group has used this name because it aspires to control what used to be the historic region called the Levant. This area includes Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Cyprus, and an area in southern Turkey that includes Hatay.


However, the Islamic State’s ambitions are now even wider – it wants to bring much of the Muslim-inhabited regions of the world under its direct political control.


The Australian government, including Prime Minister Tony Abbott, also refers to the group as ISIL.


Similarly the UK government and Prime Minister David Cameron use ISIL.


Dr Aly said whether you use ISIL, ISIS or Islamic State is neither ‘here nor there’ but the fact they are calling themselves an Islamic State is important.
‘It is significant because what they are trying to create is a state that does not recognise the previous borders of Iraq or Syria. To say Islamic state is to symbolically say “we have created one state that does not respect the borders”.



The first time I heard any of them it was ISIL - which makes sense.
Adding Syria makes no sense, as that was already covered - adding Iraq expanded their territorial ambitions.

https://www.google.com/maps/vt/data=VLHX1wd2Cgu8wR6jwyh-km8JBWAkEzU4,1D4nxhilV0ycCpWktoe7QJB5DL-3a3jFXZy3TtkHNrz8g4JXUq4bIDjZcWoJCE7N1yRGV4vL4Dbt4LwtI4aAJic 4wepcxHiLkajRVS9Q3Pbp5TW_GLQL1ElaWE0tGjudLGVCpiwv2tVd8Xxsjxw WxKAGYxzqbL7-K9fSG75GRoIVaJ73wZDPsUmlN88dfvrbc7mxn4zU


http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/isil-isis-now-qsis-top-sunni-cleric-says-stop-calling-terrorists
ISIL, ISIS – Now QSIS? Top Sunni Cleric Says Stop Calling Terrorists ‘Islamic’
August 25, 2014 - 4:25 AM

(CNSNews.com) – Stand by for a new acronym for the ISIS/ISIL terrorist group causing havoc across Syria and Iraq.


One of the Arab world’s top Sunni authorities launched a campaign Sunday urging media to drop all names for the group that incorporate the word “Islamic,” in favor of “al-Qaeda separatists in Iraq and Syria” (QSIS).


Dar al-Iftaa (“the House of Fatwas”) in Cairo, headed by Egyptian grand mufti Shawki Ibrahim Allam, has launched an Internet-based campaign aimed at distancing Islam from the group known variously as Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, Islamic State in Iraq and al-Sham, or simply Islamic State.


The 119-year-old Cairo institution, which issues fatwas or religious rulings on a wide range of topics, said it hoped Muslims and non-Muslims would actively support the campaign, “which does not only seek to exonerate the name of Islam from the terrorist group’s heinous acts but also to condemn these dreadful acts under the name of humanity.”

[rh200]

One of the Arab world’s top Sunni authorities launched a campaign Sunday urging media to drop all names for the group that incorporate the word “Islamic,” in favor of “al-Qaeda separatists in Iraq and Syria” (QSIS).

I'll support that, when they get off their asses in the millions pressuring their governments to band with the Shia, and us, and smite them.

[Hempy]

No, thats not right. According to a few people here ALL Muslims are evil and we need to eradicate the entire religion... :rolleyes:

[minigundiplomat]

Minigun, you are somewhat mistaken. The Lewinski saga came AFTER the US was already in Bosnia, boots on the ground. Check, your years, mate, the winter of 1995 is when US Army units road the rails and roads into Bosnia, and the fall of 1995 was when Dayton Agreement got hammered out. The blue dress and the blow job was after that, and the criticism on him was more closely linked to later operations in terms of that whole "wag the dog" mess. The year 1998 was when the Monica thing came to a head, so to speak.

Mainly Aerial - as stated. Dates were a bit out, admittedly.

Clinton wanted to get into Bosnia to help out sooner than he was able to. He tried to but he ran into trouble with Congress, blue helmets (backlash from the mess in Somalia, see also the Michael New case) and the funding of US ops (no the world's policeman anymore, Cold War is over) between 1991 and the eventual decision to get involved after the Dayton Agreement.

Did he want to? or did he do what US Presidents always seem do (unless there is oil) and make the right noises and throw bills at congress knowing they would be defeated?

One of many problems to overcome with Congress vis a vis a Bosnia operation sooner was the already fecked up UN RoE dual key stupidity. The more rational argument was that you can't keep the peace if there is not first a peace keeping agreement. (That was actually a good point). Dayton put that to bed and in we went, under NATO RoE and not so much UN interference in basic functions. Note that in September of 1995 USS Normandy launched Tomahawks on Serbian air defense positions, which got the French and Russians crying for some political reason or other. That was also under Bill Clinton, and Admiral "Snuffy" Smith.

Fair points - Aerial though (maybe a splash on launch)

There were other issues that got domestic political opponents arguing against direct intervention. Some of this stemmed from Bosnia being the usual messy UN operation (UN was into Bosnia long before the US showed up with big units in NATO ... and there were some US support folks supporting UNISOM and UNPROFOR previously ...).

He was busy sorting out the economy. However, was he in a rush to get involved after the UNISOM fiasco? that argument can cut both ways.

Before our boots were on the ground in Northern Bosnia, ops as Sharp Fence and Maritime Guard finally merged to become Operation Sharp Guard. (The arms embargo on FY had been supported by the US for some time).

Aerial - bit of floating.

It was very much "Clinton's War" to some partisans in the GOP, as was the Kosovo thing. The fact that he finally got some bipartisan support after a few years of trying is, of course, overlooked by same partisans in the GOP ... my own criticism of Clinton on Bosnia at the time was the impression he left of being led around the world by the nose by one CNN reporter named Christiana Amanpour. I am off topic, so I'll save that for another time.

The President who unequivocally would NOT go into Bosnia was President George H W Bush. He passed the torch, as well as the mess in Somalia, to Clinton in January of 1993

Lone - as a resident of the Western colony I will take your word, but I would point out that it was never regarded as 'Clintons War' outside of N.America, quite the opposite.

However - you seem adamant and that is good enough for me bud.

[Hangarshuffle]

Just been half watching a BBC 2 Newsnight special about this. Admiral Lord West spoke well and I agreed with him, but Lewd Ashdown and Dr Liam Fox.... I glazed over.
Thanks to all of this ****e I can probably reasonably expect to be blown to pieces at any time whilst travelling around within Britain on a train, tube, bus or plane.....thanks' a lot, everyone involved.

[Danny42C]

Green Knight121 (et al),

Thanks for the very complete explanation. Seems it's a case of "You pays yer penny and yer takes yer choice !"

D.

[Lonewolf_50]

Lone - as a resident of the Western colony I will take your word, but I would point out that it was never regarded as 'Clintons War' outside of N.America, quite the opposite.[/COLOR]

However - you seem adamant and that is good enough for me bud. Suggest you learn to read and comprehend an entire paragraph, and not cherry pick a clause.

The "clinton's war" criticism was, as I stated, used by some GOP partisans. Go back and read what I posted in its entirety, please.

Other than that, we seem more or less to have reached an understanding.

[PapaDolmio]

I'm utterly depressed by all this, I just think we've been let down by our politicians and military leaders to the stage where it's downhill all the way. Sadly I don't think we can turn this around, what is happening in the middle east now will eventually find it's way here. I suspect it's only a matter of time before we see a suicide bomb at a main gate or a shooter or two, especially if we continue half baked military adventures and allowing human rights and open borders to compromise national security.
Solution? B******d if I know!

[rh200]

Sadly I don't think we can turn this around, what is happening in the middle east now will eventually find it's way here. I suspect it's only a matter of time before we see a suicide bomb at a main gate or a shooter or two, especially if we continue half baked military adventures and allowing human rights and open borders to compromise national security.

Regardless whether we like it or not, we are at war, is their any difference to a suicide bomber or a bomb being dropped from a plane. Its just a delivery method that has been developed to make it hard to intercept. Another words a technology equalizer.

[Robert Cooper]

The standard bearer of Islam’s latest lurch backwards to the eighth century is the newly minted Islamic State of Iran and Syria (ISIS). A fresh crop of Islamofascist thugs that make Fatah, Hezb’allah, Hamas, or al Qaeda seem enlightened. The new face of Islam is savage: beheading, crucifixion, slavery, and genocide. Demands are clear: “accept Islam or die.” The mad dogs of Muslim hell are off the choke chain.

ISIS is as dangerous a threat as western civilization has seen in a thousand years. It is serious. We need to address it. We are facing a monumental threat – a dangerous enemy that epitomizes evil – and all we have are random voices making occasional statements about the reality before us when we need a fierce army to overwhelm the evil darkness that seeks to consume us all.

Muslim terrorists have upped the ante and called America’s bluff again. Unlike the imaginary red lines drawn in the Oval Office, ISIS has drawn a bright red line with American blood.

Every single Senator and every single Congressperson needs to be making our national security the Number One priority. And they need to be doing it now. With a president who leaves a gaping void in sane leadership, it is all the more crucial that Congress step in to fill that void before terror fills it at a speed and at a magnitude none of us should even have to contemplate.

Deciding what to do should be a no brainer. Our deadly enemy, Islam, has finally taken to the battlefield! At last, they are out in the open, fighting a conventional war as an army and a state. This is the opportunity we could only wish for during the last decades. Jihadis from all over the world are pouring into Iraq to join ISIS, leaving the cover of their surrounding civilian populations and forming up as an army. They are fighting on our terms, on the battlefield, where we are supreme. At last, after years of frustration, we have the chance to engage and crush them.

When Sir Winston Churchill stood before Parliament on May 13, 1940, he said that the English people must “…wage war … with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us … against a monstrous tyranny….” The goal, he said, was clear: “… victory at all costs … in spite of all terror … for without victory, there is no survival.”

We now face what England faced when Churchill spoke: a monstrous tyranny. If we want to survive, we must be prepared to wage all out war.

Bob C

[Hempy]

In my opinion ISIS (or whatever they are calling themselves today) have one redeeming feature.

They are fundamentally stupid.

They are basically calling the US out.

They honestly seem to think 'leave us alone or else' terrorist threats actually work, when essentially, eventually, they are just going to get smashed.

I actually also think that they really do think that they can beat the 'West' in 'battle', Allah willing.

These guys are much more of a threat than Saddam ever was..if the people representing We, The People in government do their jobs (put it to a Referendum..), ISIS should feel the FULL wrath of the Western Arsenal, for the first time since WW2 if necessary.

Just give it to them, wipe them all off the map, rid the vermin, nice and quick before they start really getting dangerous.

It has to happen soon. You can't keep poking a tiger in the eye. The sooner the better imo, get it over and done with.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The standard bearer of Islam’s latest lurch backwards to the eighth century is the newly minted Islamic State of Iran and Syria (ISIS). A fresh crop of Islamofascist thugs that make Fatah, Hezb’allah, Hamas, or al Qaeda seem enlightened. The new face of Islam is savage: beheading, crucifixion, slavery, and genocide. Demands are clear: “accept Islam or die.” The mad dogs of Muslim hell are off the choke chain.


Why do you think ISIS/ISIL/IS is a legitimate representation of Islam and all Muslims? The overwhelming majority of their victims and their most vociferous opponents are Muslim.

[Tashengurt]

I'm loath to say we should take on these animals. It won't be me putting myself on the front line but I don't think we have any options.
I think we need to draw a line, make it clear to all states that they have one chance to decide which side of it they wish to be on and then crush all others.
If we don't we could be looking at decades of global conflict with no assurances as to the outcome.
Maybe we should be looking at domestic issues to. Making sure all understand where religion fits in with society. Even if that means some changes to cultures on all sides.



Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Typhoon93]

"We will not be intimidated," President Barack Obama says in the wake of Steven Sotloff's beheading. "Justice will be served."...


I take that as, "We are currently forming a strategy for military action."

[Stitchbitch]

Typhoon 93, let's hope so, he didn't seem to have anything in the bag last week :eek:

[Typhoon93]

We can only hope.

Although I have my doubts. If my doubts are correct then we will have to painfully wait until 2017, when Obama is out of office. This is a team effort requiring all available resources (not just military) to be utilised, and preferably without the command of the U.S - I'd rather we led the Operation. I would hate for Iraq III to be dragged on for as long as Iraq II and Afghanistan, too many families have been destroyed by the last two conflicts and that is the thing that bugs me the most.

[Robert Cooper]

Obama, by his own admission, doesn't have a strategy. He is following his preferred approach of "leading from behind".

Bob C :{

[Lonewolf_50]

Robert, my hope is that the President is choosing to talk softly before he wields the big stick. Let's see how things play out.

As to this:
QSIS?

Why not call them AQSIS: Al Qeda's State in Iraq and Syria.

We would then actually have an AQSIS of Evil :E to deal with. See the above reference to a big stick.

[500N]

Robert

"Lead" is too good a word to use in the same sentence for Obama.

[con-pilot]

Al Qeda

Wolf, there is no more Al Qeda, President Obama himself said so. :=


And as we well know, President Obama is never wrong.

[Typhoon93]

It's not his fault that he's never wrong.

It's Bush's fault! ;)

I really hate that guy, for his actions (or lack of actions) in Benghazi. Giving the order for a Special Forces team to go in and get those guys out of there could have saved all of their lives, instead they were overrun by hundreds and were killed. I have no time for a Commander-in-Chief who doesn't stand by his men, (two of) the same men whose branch gave him glory just months earlier.

[melmothtw]

RAF Tornados sent to West Africa - IHS Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/42799/raf-tornados-sent-to-west-africa)

So that's Tornados in Afghanistan (and training to go), Syria, and now West Africa. Has the force ever been so busy (especially given that it's never been so small)?

[downsizer]

And about to get another Sqn smaller!

[melmothtw]

Is it? My understanding is that it will remain at 3 sqns until OSD in 2019. Is this not correct?

[downsizer]

II go in Mar 15. So I guess it depends if you count 15(R) as a sqn alongside IX(B) and 31. I wouldn't as they don't do ops.

[melmothtw]

The last I was told was that 15 Sqn would disband sometime in 2015 but that 2, 9, and 31 Sqns would continue through to OSD, which would make more sense Will have to take another look.

[downsizer]

II are definitely going. 9 and 31 will remain to OSD.

[Selatar]

Indeed II to go in Mar 15 reforming as the 5th typhoon squadron. Won't leave much of a FE@R to play with.

[HaveQuick2]

BBC News - UK sending arms to Iraq government (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29130209)


Heavy machine guns and ammunition are being donated to Iraq to help fight Islamic State militants, the Ministry of Defence says.


Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said the equipment was worth about £1.6m, and there would be an estimated £475,000 in transport costs.

[rh200]

Heavy machine guns and ammunition are being donated to Iraq to help fight Islamic State militants, the Ministry of Defence says.

Chicken feed, but a lot more than they are giving to the Ukraine. One wonder sif its worth the PR, considering Iraqi is supposed to be an ally that I thought we where arming anyway?

[Danny42C]

"Come back, Ottoman Empire - all is forgiven !" (British Empire wasn't all bad, either)

".......The evil that men do lives after them......." (1918 ?)

Doesn't worry me much now, anyway (nunc dimittis...)

D.

[Lonewolf_50]

"Come back, Ottoman Empire - all is forgiven !" (British Empire wasn't all bad, either) D.
No, I don't think so.
The sack of Constantinople and desecration of the Haga Sofia cathedral is not forgiven. :mad: Glad to see the Ottoman Empire put to bed.

[HaveQuick2]

How much sense does it make for UK forces to go on the offensive just in Iraq, but NOT in Syria?


I don't think that IS are that concerned with national boundaries.

[Sandy Parts]

No but we are - Labour will no doubt have set the geo limit to appease sections of their party rightly nervous after Blair's efforts.

[Party Animal]

The key difference is that Iraqi leadership have asked us for help to sustain their beautiful and peaceful fully democratic state through the removal of a bunch of terrorist scumbags.

Thus, we can hold our heads up high as loyal supporters of a friendly ally and maintainers of world peace - without any legal implications to muddy the waters.

Syria, on the other hand, has not asked for our help. We therefore have absolutely no sovereign or legal right to fly in their airspace with any military aircraft, let alone fully armed combat jets.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if Assad did plead for help via the UN :eek:

[downsizer]

Wether we drop in eye-rack on Syria is largely immaterial IMO. The few pw4 or brims we throw in the mix is like trying to fcuk a wet welly top. It's all about politicians looking good.

[HaveQuick2]

I think the question mark can be safely dropped now that the Government have, this evening, approved offensive operations

[VinRouge]

Fingers crossed with the lack of media coverage in country, we can go in F@ck them up good and proper this time and not finish with them till all the uk born Islamist traitors have been turned into Palm tree fertiliser.

It's about time these twats learnt that poking dangerous animals with sticks gets you hurt.

[Frostchamber]

It is partly symbolic, part of turning up as part of a wider effort, so in that sense the fact that we might add relatively little militarily in our own right is immaterial. As to Syria PA we do have legal cover if Iraq asks for help because it's being attacked from across the Syrian border.

[Tashengurt]

Diane Abbott MP. Oxygen thief.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Hangarshuffle]

By far the best speaker in the house, who has spoken the most sense all day, perhaps the only sense all day.
George Galloway angers MPs with comment about ?quiescent? Iraqis | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/26/george-galloway-angers-mps-isis-iraq-debate)


They don’t concentrate as an army. They don’t live in bases.


It is not an army and it is certainly not an army that is going to be destroyed by aerial bombardment.


The territory they control is the size of Britain and yet there are only between 10,000 and 20,000 of them. Do the maths.


“Saudi Arabia has 700 war planes – get them to bomb. Turkey is a Nato member – get Turkey to bomb. The last people who should be returning to the scene of their former crimes are Britain, France and the US.”


Couldn't have put it better myself. GG is hated, just as Stokes was hated in WW2, but who was right in the end?


GG is worth reading in full. I wish there were 200 more like him in the Commons at times.

[Prangster]

Once committed we can only pray and offer our total support to those at the sharp end. Fly in safety folks and all return home

[Lima Juliet]

I think that Galloway is a traitor and the Tower is too good for him...

As for all the anti air power drivel from various corners. OK ground pounders, crack on then and we'll watch your body count rise on a daily basis. Assymetric warfare needs to be confronted with a similar assymetry - very low risk but big effect air power is just the job rather than a ground war where you have little idea who is badness until it is too late.

What we really need is a 'gloves off' air campaign which is qued by air/space bourne assets giving real time fused intel to the shooter - roll in AC130, A10, MQ-1 and MQ-9 in large numbers day and night with short sensor-to-target chain. There is no real need to use high-end warfighting assets over Iraq like Tornado when there is no credible air threat - save them for Ukraine vs Russia!

LJ

[Hangarshuffle]

Its all been done before Leon, we have had years of it and the bad guys such as they are simply keep being re-invented and re-presented to us again and again.
How is he a traitor? For speaking about the unspeakable? For daring to? He's no better or worse than half the other rascals in the place.
The present situation utterly sucks. The west seems to be in a constant confrontation with some of the people from the east in a never ending war-fighting cycle. We need new fresh thinking, attitudes, outlooks and strategies other than bombing more and more, every other bastard year.


I very much doubt GG has ever picked up anything more weapon-like than a stone, and yet he clearly hits the nail on the military head when he says this talk of attacking proven strategic targets is utter rubbish - they have no HQ or base or Quartermaster store, that's the point - they are a rag tag bunch of killers who only have to walk 500 yards apart from one another in the desert and scrub to then defeat another air campaign - cant you see this?
It is yet another crazy chapter in a book our descendant's will scorn or laugh at.

[MAINJAFAD]

Couldn't have put it better myself. GG is hated, just as Stokes was hated in WW2, but who was right in the end?

The problem is that Stokes was wrong!!! The cities were attacked because that was where the war industries were and a city was the smallest target that either bomber force could hit (USAAF had to bomb by radar half the time, plus their method of formation defence resulted in any attack destroying more that just the small area of the aiming point). The whole point of the bombing campaign against German was to keep them on the back foot and stop them from throwing everything at the Russians or at our forces. That's why half of the German Fighter Force was stuck in Germany by 1944, plus half of all of the 88mm Flak guns ever made. They could have made the Allied efforts on the ground all over the place a lot harder than it finally was and resulted in even more ground losses than were suffered in the Air by Bomber Command and 8th Air Force. Also attacking a city as a whole unit did more than just damage the factories. It also disrupted all of the services required for the Factories to operate, Power, Water, Gas, Transport, etc and this could damage production of war equipment just as much as bombing of the factories. Also the City attacks had an effect on the small workshops that were the sub contractors that produced the small specialist components for military equipment. The Battle of the Ruhr in 1943 resulted in the Germans having 1/3 of the steel they required for arms production that year. They also suffered a shortage of spares thanks to what they called the 'Sub components' Crises because of the city bombing. The thing is in Britain, the majority of the industry was in Cities. lots of small components were made in back street workshops, sometimes by Children after school using hand presses and foot drills (My late father spend most of his evenings in WWII helping his old man in that making aircraft engine parts in a shed at the back of the garden) and of course a lot of the military production in the UK, USA and the Soviet Union was done by women. When the Bombing of Germany started, it would have been suspected that the Germans were doing the same so killing women and children was killing the workforce. Of course due to Nazi doctrine, they used slave labour instead and didn't evacuate the childern as the UK did. Also If area bombing wasn't effective, why did Curtis Le May use it against the Japs? The simple reason was because it WORKS!!!!!

LJ

Galloway does actually talk a lot of sense and in a perfect world most of his ideas would be the ideal solution, the problem is however, it isn't a perfect world. The guy did help save the union:ok:, so the term traitor is a little bit harsh.

[orca]

I am personally very sad that it has taken us so long to commit to this fight and that modern political leadership is too scared to do so without a vote.

I consider this particular bunch, carrying out staggering acts of brutality under the completely false moniker of religion to be one of the greatest evils we shall face in our time. I am just sad that our combat air mass has shrunk to the point that a half squadron of GR4 is worthy of a commons vote and is considered an adequate contribution.

I am genuinely jealous of those that will get a chance to unleash the fury of all those of sound mind upon this despicable foe.

Go get 'em crabs. Give them hell and come home safely once the job's done.

[Hangarshuffle]

Sectors in the London Stock Exchange (LSE) | shareprices.com (http://shareprices.com/sectors)


Sector rise of 0.68% today in the Aerospace and Defence Sector, the 5th highest rise out of 40 odd in the total number of sectors. This is never a coincidence.
War can make many people very wealthy; possibly here we see the real reasoning behind our long term balls-up of showing any world wide humanity.
The richest, most affluent house I ever saw close up in England belonged to Thatcher's little secret favourite foreigner - sorry now a Briton (who just happened to be a major arms dealer, I later learnt).
It can be hard to grasp, that bit, when your young. People will slap you on the back and send you onwards with a shove into harms way, whilst they pick up the pink un for a quick scan for what's hot...was ever thus.

[Lima Juliet]

Galloway makes a lot of sense? Am I the only one not living on the moon?! The guy, in my opinion, is an absolute twonk who would sell his own grandmother to stay in the house of commons. When I was risking my neck over Iraq he was cozying up to Saddam in a self publicising trek to Baghdad whilst Saddam was offering to solid gold pistols to the pilot that could put me in a box 6 feet underground. A treacherous rogue is my own personal view of the man who will cozy up to anyone who will listen to his tosh.

You can't reason with these IS people and cozying up to them will not work either. As one guy at work was foolishly saying "if I was caught I would just convert to Islam"; I then explained that they would then pass you a black fishing vest with marzipan smelling lining and ask you to demonstrate your faith for the cause by spreading yourself across a large area!

I'm afraid that plinking them from afar as they are identified is the best option for standing up to them with minimal casualties to our side. They don't like it, Terry hated airpower in Afghanistan and we used it effectively in the Middle East in the 20s/30s. We also need to raise our PerSec at home to ensure we don't suffer more Rigby style incidents. I have no issue with profiling like many other countries do - it isn't that hard to work out where the threats within the UK are coming from for the IS cause!!!

LJ

[gr4techie]

Saudi Arabia has 700 war planes – get them to bomb. Turkey is a Nato member – get Turkey to bomb.

This is what he said. Interesting speech...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVgSAniqfRs

[Alber Ratman]

Galloway is right.. France and the British made this mess after the fall of the Ottoman Empire almost 100 years ago... and didn't sort out what happened on the Arabian peninsular when the Hassamite lost control as the custodian of the holy places. We will not sort it by bombs alone. Again. We didn't sort it by boots on the ground last time either. 4 months of my life being put at risk as metal came over the fence and seeing one of my fellow SNCO's being killed.. For what?




Air policing didn't really ever stop them..

[Twon]

Unfortunately, I also find myself agreeing with Galloway. We may not like him or his previous views and actions but that doesn't automatically make him wrong on every issue. I agree with the Government that ISIL needs to be dealt with but token military action by the UK is not necessarily the best method. However, the decision has been made and we should support it and those who will be enacting it.

[downsizer]

I wonder how 9 and 31 feel about 4 months on ops 4 months off ops for the next few years then?

[Davef68]

I am personally very sad that it has taken us so long to commit to this fight and that modern political leadership is too scared to do so without a vote.


I was wondering - is there anything legally that requires a vote from the HoC before committing British forces to action - or is it just a political backstop by the PM?

[Heathrow Harry]

we've been bombing Iraq on and off for nearly a hundred years but we always seem to think it will solve the problems

[Heathrow Harry]

"I was wondering - is there anything legally that requires a vote from the HoC before committing British forces to action - or is it just a political backstop by the PM?"

without a written constitution he can do pretty much what he wants using the Crown prerogative - especially in times a danger

there is of course a move amongst the lawyers to say we have to have UN approval otherwise it might be a war crime

but in this day and age the PM wants to be able to say to them "well you damn well voted for it - it wasn't ALL my fault" when it goes pear-shaped .... as it always does

[2Planks]

I think the safest bet here is to buy shares in the Akkers Strip kebab houses - looks like the GR4s are in for the long haul - at least the guys get to live in accom with a roof and a bar nearby. Brandy Sour anyone.
God Speed to all those going sausage side.

[Danny42C]

"We must do Something !"

"This is Something"

"Let's do it !"

[The B Word]

This is what happens when you interview a Cold War Warrior about COIN campaign tactics that he is clearly Cluedo about. He should stick to stories about switch pigz and re-attacks...

John Nichol, a former RAF navigator who was held captive in the Gulf War of 1991, said the difficulty with the mission was that IS does not have military infrastructure such as air fields or weapon dumps which can be destroyed.

"If there are no IS fighters on the ground and we're talking of a pick-up truck with some weaponry on the back - then there is nothing to attack.

"If IS know that the air assets are up there to hunt them down, they're not stupid, they're going to be hiding amongst the civilian population."

JN, what on earth do you think the Tornado GR Force have been doing in Afghanistan for the past 5 years or so! :ugh:

The B Word

[ATFQ]

ZZZZZZZZZZ

[rh200]

This link is worth a read - and is accurate

Though I don't pretend to be an expert in philosophical international evolution of western society, I'm presuming the reason for the present state of our armed forces is straight forward.

You are still thinking on the fact that your a sovereign country and your armed forces should be able to stand on their own. I presume the long term trend, though not official is leading towards an integrated defense force.

Another words any enemy who is big enough to worry you with what you have, will not be confronted alone.

[effortless]

Oh lord, don't say Galloway has a point again. How many sharp end aircraft do we have? 200 odd? How many do the Saudis have? 700 odd?

[Danny42C]

rh200,

Your #202:

"Another words any enemy who is big enough to worry you with what you have, will not be confronted alone".

Sorry to rain on your parade, but that's what we thought 75 years ago. Didn't work out quite that way.

[smujsmith]

Rh200,

That's all fine and dandy thinking when you believe you are confronting a common enemy in a conventional military situation. I wonder how long the western governments, like our own, will be keen to throw our assets at Iraq/Syria when we start to see the likes of the attack on Lee Rigby as a regular occurrence in our own country. From the lies of Bliar to the incompetence of our migration management, we have managed to import a large fifth column that will no doubt make its mark, should we upset their pals in the desert. As Danny 42c says, we (our political leadership) certainly failed to see the threat of Hitler in the late 30s. Thankfully, we were not taking on an enemy with a large Trojan horse sat in our country at that time. I fear that the involvement in Iraq, and possibly Syria, is more of a diversion from the real threat, building steadily on our home front.

Smudge

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

smujsmith what you've said is so politically incorrect on so many levels. That doesn't make you wrong, though.

[rh200]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but that's what we thought 75 years ago. Didn't work out quite that way.

Not my parade, I didn't say it was right or wrong, just that I think thats the general strategies.

Whether its wise or not, is a different analysis, of which the outcome will be in several fronts, a glass half empty, glass half full and then a logical analysis, which will of course be overshadowed by the other two:p

[Danny42C]

Smudge,

Not quite what I meant. We started off with one ally (France) in '39. Then there was the blitzkrieg and by spring '40 we had none.

(Of course all the Dominions sprang instantly to our side # - but they could do little for the moment but look after their own back yards). It was not until December '41 that the US suddenly awoke one day and found, rather to its surprise, that overnight it had got two wars for the price of one (and neither of its own doing). Then we had a real Ally. (Churchill recounts that "he went to bed that night and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful").

Of course, the Russians were de facto our allies, but they were rather busy with one A.Hitler at the time and for quite a while after.

Note # (Could we be certain of the same thing happening today if need arose ? I hope so !) D.

(rh200, we were at cross purposes - hope this clears up the misunderstanding! D.)

[Heathrow Harry]

"We started off with one ally (France) in '39."

Don't run that line past my Polish builder..................

[Danny42C]

Heathrow Harry,

Sorry ! (who could forget their gallant, doomed fight on two fronts), and the part their pilots played in the Battle of Britain, and the Free Polish Army and Navy who managed to get to Britain.

But I was thinking of Allies "still standing", as it were. In the same way as the Poles, we had Belgian, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, Greek (have I left anyone out ?) Allies.

Just about all the crowned heads left in Europe were bunkered down in London. We were saluting all manner of strange Officers. There was an apocryphal tale that, later in the war, a pair of RAF Intelligence Officers dressed up as Luftwaffe Leutnants and went marching round the West End, collecting salutes, for quite a while until someone said: "Half a mo !" and called a Constable.

[smujsmith]

Danny,

I wouldn't argue the toss, you were there, and I wasn't. I certainly am not trying to gainsay your post. But, I rather suspect that as pressures built (politically) in the lead up to WW2 we had rather a lot of support (certainly our former empire). Gaining a pilots Brevet in WW2 Bears testament to that. And even now we see the Aussies putting a significant effort in to the Iraq IS problem. I'm sure, had the politicians not ripped the teethe out of the modern RAF our contribution could have been more significant than it currently is (notwithstanding GR4 capability). One thing for sure, in your day, mine and currently, political cost cutting comes to the fore when hardware and people are put in peril. I just hope the personnel involved all come home safely.

Smudge

[Danny42C]

Smudge,

I think we've got our wires crossed a bit ! Of course, all the Dominions were behind us to a man in 1939. But they weren't our Allies - they were us ! There was no question in anybody's mind that they would even dream of doing anything else.

My faint concern was whether the same would hold good tomorrow (South Africa ?) if the need arose.

The "Wild Colonial Boys" were renowned in the RAF ! (The New Zealanders in particular punched far above their weight in population).

D.

[Typhoon93]

Hi Danny,

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, what did you fly in '39-'45?

T93.


PS: Thank you for your service.

[Danny42C]

Typhoon93,

Glad to have been of Service.

In order, then:

(USA)

Stearman PT-17
Vultee Valiant BT-13
AT6A (Harvard)

(UK)

Miles Master I, III
Hurricane I #
Spitfire I and II

(INDIA, BURMA)

Vultee Vengeance I, II, III
P-47 Thunderbolt II #

(Post war UK)

Tiger Moth
Harvard II (again)
Spitfire XIV, # XVI, XXII#
Meteor 4, T7
Balliol II #
Vampire III, V

(# - only briefly)

That's all, folks. Danny.

[Typhoon93]

Wow, that's an impressive list. Thanks, Danny.

Every so often I get the Lancaster and if I am really lucky, the Spitfire and Hurricane from BBMF fly over my house on finals to refuel at the local airport.

[rh200]

BBC News - Iran bombs Islamic State targets in Iraq, says Pentagon (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30304723)

Looks like the old Phantom has got some action. Regardless of what I think of the Iranians, I wish them luck.

[Whenurhappy]

Now, if I was in the IRoIAF, I'd really, really want to let the US know that I was coming through and attacking ISIS targets, just to avoid any, ahem, misunderstandings.

[Party Animal]

Although both the US and Iran are currently denying direct co-operation with each other, it's an intriguing thought to wonder who is talking to who behind the scenes in the latest coalition. Liaison officers??

On a separate note, I understand that IS/ISIS/ISIL has now been formally rebranded (at least in military circles) as Da'eash (pronounced Daish). It is allegedely a derogatory Arabic term for 'poncey terrorist scumbags' or words to that effect....

[Wensleydale]

A Splash and Da'eash then.

[skydiver69]

Although both the US and Iran are currently denying direct co-operation with each other, it's an intriguing thought to wonder who is talking to who behind the scenes in the latest coalition. Liaison officers??

On a separate note, I understand that IS/ISIS/ISIL has now been formally rebranded (at least in military circles) as Da'eash (pronounced Daish). It is allegedely a derogatory Arabic term for 'poncey terrorist scumbags' or words to that effect....

I presume that the Americans must also have been talking to the Syrians before launching airstrikes there as well unless their defences have degraded significantly during the civil war or the US are restricting their attacks to targets well away from government forces.

BTW Da'eash is in common use in Iran to describe IS.

[Toadstool]

Da'esh is the Arabic acronym for ISIL.

[Archimedes]

To expand on Toadstool's point, there's an explanation (which I am led to believe is credible by a colleague who has a basic knowledge of Arabic) here (http://pietervanostaeyen.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/on-the-origin-of-the-name-daesh-the-islamic-state-in-iraq-and-as-sham/).

(NB, for the fainter hearts amongst us, or those with small children reading over their shoulder, there is a cartoon at the bottom of the page involving a Da'esh fighter holding a severed head in his hand. The most disturbing thing about it is that the fighter looks like Robbie Coltraine playing Hagrid in the Potter franchise, but there y'go)

[Whenurhappy]

Da'eash is in common use in Iran to describe IS

I saw IS/ISIL/ISID referred to as Dağış on a Turkish website the other day; it would be pronounced the same way, I understand, and avoid the risk of two vowels being placed together, deemed 'unpronounceable' in Turkey, presumably on the basis that two vowels together would be clear evidence of a Western plot...

[ValMORNA]

In Turkish the 'G' is pronounced 'hard' when it begins a word but merely extends the letter 'A' when it follows; the 'I' without a dot over it is a short 'I''; if it has a dot it is a long 'I'. It is, more or less, an adaption of (but less complicated than, Arabic.)

[Whenurhappy]

Valmorna - I have yet to see the purpose of the silent g in Turkish (ğ); the hat on a (â) has been done away with (by Government edict). The few words, as you precisely point out, that have vowels together are foreign, despicable words like saat (Time - Persian) and maas (salary - Persian), and the frequently-heard Maalesef (unfortunately - Arabic).

When Atatürk (PBUH) brought in Latin script in c 1928, he could have got rid of the weird vowels and consonants that existed in spoken Turkish, whilst he was at it: İ ç ğ ı ö ü ş

Sadly, he didn't, thus the oft-heard Erdogan on Western media.

Remind me to get out more!

[Party Animal]

So is Erdogan - 'Erdo Gan' or 'Erdo Aan'?

and is the title of this thread 'Ee rack 3' or 'Eye rack 3'? :confused:

[Lonewolf_50]

Iraq continues to be enjoying bombs in markets, now going on 14 years.

https://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/14-people-killed-injured-in-bomb-blast-in-baquba-market/

Whether or not this has anything to do with Al-Sadr's recent success at the polls is unclear. Being attributed to ISIS.

[ORAC]

Meanwhile, whilst everyone is distracted, things kick off in Iraq - doubtless Iran instigated…

https://twitter.com/intelomarion/status/1564223010822934539?s=21&t=HFSe1jPk6jLamLgcMln3cg


A total curfew has been announced in Baghdad at 3:30PM. This comes after Sadr has announced his ‘resignation’ from politics & his followers have stormed the Iraqi presidential palace

[RatherBeFlying]

Since toppling Sadaam, the US and Israel have had their knickers in a twist over Iran.

Own Goal:p

[Lonewolf_50]

Meanwhile, whilst everyone is distracted, things kick off in Iraq - doubtless Iran instigated…
A total curfew has been announced in Baghdad at 3:30PM. This comes after Sadr has announced his ‘resignation’ from politics & his followers have stormed the Iraqi presidential palace This tiff has been building up for a couple of months (https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/05/muqtada-al-sadrs-revolution/), as the more Iranian-friendly Shiite faction has been maneuvering to elbow out the less Iranian-friendly Shiite faction (Sadr's) and Sadr's success in last October's election has come to naught. The recent coverage I've seen on this has been heavy in pointing to the influence of Iran - Sadr is (if nothing else) a kind Iraqi nationalist albeit his major power base is anchored in the Shia community.
Own Goalhttps://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif
That own goal - if you take down Saddam you do Iran a big, big favor - was predicted in 2002 by a former US CENTCOM (https://www.salon.com/2002/10/17/zinni/) commander. He was ignored. What was kind of interesting - after 9-11 but before Katami left and Mahmoud the Mouth became president in Iran - is that we had some (let's say interesting) working relationships with Iranians in Afghanistan. Sadly, that didn't help grow into something more sustainable and the Axis of Evil line was not helpful.

Iraq: a civil war in the making? Probably. Or maybe I should say "another civil war in the making." :mad:

[RatherBeFlying]

The similarities are interesting:

A disfunctional legislative body
A body of disaffected people that have been left behind
A charismatic leader

One difference is the massive corruption that siphons off Iraq oil revenues: highly prevalent in petrol states:mad: