GA from an old not so bold.

[ZAZ]

From my perspective I have seen two retractables sold for $50K under value and leave my location.
Zero travel flights. reduction in airline to two flights per day from four and the closing of its local service base and hangars and ground staff retrenched.
The local aero club languishing, no instructor and very little use of its GA single.


COST
Cost this year so far Insure $1300 ground risk only 100 hourly $1500
Cables $1500 Hangarage $1500 pa.
Operating costs just sitting $60 per hour add fuel at 33 lph $125 per hour.
Just got quoted between $420 and $720 for a Condcord RG25 battery as mine is flat through lack of use.
$420 US includes $130 freight landed
AU $420 Gold Coast quote,
local quote for same battery was $720.
Saw a Cherokee get sold for $15K with 40K worth of avionics.
Mine was $50K 5 years ago now $maybe $20 if I am lucky.
So unless something drastically changes in Australia IMO GA flying is at high risk of failure..
And the SIDS for Cessna, the cables for PIPER and the ADSB upgrade for IFR which could well be the death knock for IFR oldies, which is probably a good thing..
Cheapest aircraft available right now ever seen.

I get the impression the LAMES and Retailers think we are still rich old bastards..with unlimited money.
They are milking the used avionic market dry and spare parts are gold plated.


2 cents.

[Jack Ranga]

Your fixed costs are on the lower end, think of those with higher! You are entirely correct though. Lots of conspiracy theories about killing GA then accessing pilots through 200 hour pilot schemes etc, etc but in the end red tape & user pays is killing GA.

I doubt anybody cares, government certainly doesn't, couldn't care less, it costs them money. I've always had the view that GA is part of every towns infrastructure. It allows RFDS & Angel Flight for example. When those services disappear (it'll take a while) then the whinging may start.

One NSW/VIC border town after years of support for a flying comp is attempting to user pay the event, no consideration of the money it brings into the town. The local aeroclub relies on this event to keep their club viable (they do the catering). Accommodation & pub meals etc.

Another SA town is excited to have the National event & is working with the club on the planning & has officially welcomed the aviators. While the former continues GA aviation is a dead duck.

[TBM-Legend]

All correct however I think GA undersells itself and it's community value .
More PR work needed across the board including lobbying your local pollies and getting local media on side .

[peterc005]

The values of GA planes in Australia does seem to have dropped, but this may be largely due to the high Australian Dollar meaning more people are importing planes. Supply up, price down.

I also get the impression a lot of weekend GA people are moving to RAA. Demand down, price down.

The hourly rate GA LAMEs charge seems uneconomically low. I get the impression LAMEs are aggressive in the hours they bill and look for a margin on the parts to compensate for this. Wish maintenance was cheaper, but doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[tnuc]

My experience has been that many LAMES generally discount the hours that they actually spend on the job, as well as having a fairly low labour rate compared to other industries.
Considering the level of professionalism, training and compliance that is expected and mandated, its hard to understand how many of them survive.
The real problems facing GA stem from participation.
One of the best ways to lower costs is to cover the fixed costs over more hours.
The lack or decline in participation is a problem that probably began 20 years ago.
The entire industry seems to want to blame someone else, Blame the LAME, Blame CASA, Blame security, Blame the cost of ....
The truth is GA has marketed itself poorly, How many "young" people are learning to fly? how may use a private aircraft to see our great country ?

Sell the sizzle, not the sausage.

[tecman]

ZAZ, I share your concern but as others have noted the costs you're encountering are actually pretty reasonable. You beat me on nearly all counts, despite having my aircraft hangared outside the capital city and maintained by a country LAME.

I'm still working professionally and while I enjoy flying lots of GA aircraft, I could see that the ability to fund my private flying in retirement was likely to be an issue. More, rather than less, cost certainty is important to me so I passed on lots of the "well-used" GA aircraft hanging around the market and bought a second-hand LSA with 500TT. (Not being quite able to cut the thread, I bought a fully certified version). It's a fun thing for beetling around the patch at the weekend - nothing too unusual these days about 105 kt at 15 lph of premium mogas, and 5-6 hrs endurance. One day the aircraft and I will end up in RAA but, for the moment, I'm happy enough in the GA world and enjoy renting a 182, Bonanza etc for the longer trips.

Maintenance will never be a bargain if it's done properly but, with an all-metal aircraft designed pretty much out of the Aircraft Spruce catalogue, the parts costs are considerably less than for other aircraft I've owned. And, despite my initial cautions, the Rotax 912S has worked out well as an ownership proposition.

I'm not suggesting that a solution like this is going to work for everyone, even for their Sunday burn around the patch. But there are some options out there and, while flying will never be cheap, some of the options bring the costs within the reach of those who might otherwise drop out - or never start.

I agree entirely re selling the GA experience; part of the challenge is just the sheer number of alternative activities available to young people these days. An observation I'd make is that the flying schools, in their understandable push for the CPL (and higher) dollar, often miss the mark in selling the PPL experience. I couldn't help but be impressed when I flew in to a country centre recently and noted the largish number of young people around on Sunday morning. The local schools do both RAA and GA training, with as much overlap in instructors and aircraft as possible, and have put a fair bit of effort in promoting their PPL and Pilot Certificate courses. I've got no idea how it will work out in the long-run but it's been going a while and seems promising.

[Jack Ranga]

When I was a panel beater way back when, if we farked a job, we fixed it for nothing. When a LAME farks a job they charge you to fix it, they are part of the GA problem. I've had a few fark ups, they've got you by the nuts, not a lot of integrity there I'm afraid.

[Wally Mk2]

Simple answer to it all, this country is no longer prosperous.

We (Govt's & to some degree ourselves) have been running around spending money like it grows on trees (Krudd/Juliar the perfect Eg) not putting away for the future when the bubble busts, well it's burst & there is little in the kitty.
The mining industry is a total joke, huge profits for the privileged few with tax rorts galore & who owns that stuff in the ground? WE ALL DO! meaning we get zero benefit for the common good. Jobs are no longer plentiful (highest jobless to date today 7%), costs always on the rise at an alarming rate (Electricity prices just an Eg). Our aviation industry in tatters, the regulator has no idea, the Govt is out of control (All Govt's) & our country is supporting more & more non contributors & straining what piddly income we generate, all in all we are doomed & it's showing!
I've said it before, everyone get yr affairs in order.
As for GA? Well it's dieing right under our feet!


Wmk2

[Cravenmorehead]

Hey Jack Ranga are you related to Andrew Bolt by any chance?

[FokkerInYour12]

One wonders if a GoPro or similar portable camera was temporarily attached to the top of the tail for "liability reasons" during maintenance would you see the number of man-hours on the bill drop?

[Fred Gassit]

LAMES are about the cheapest tradesmen Ive engaged to do anything. I would have thought the business is far too small to get by on unethical practices for long?

[Hasherucf]

They are milking the used avionic market dry and spare parts are gold plated.

I work in an avionics shop and I can't believe what we are charged for parts by the suppliers. Our mark up is low as its crazy pricing already.

Old avionics from the 70's has seen its day. Manufacturers are out of business or no longer supporting the junkers.

Yeah we discount hours, we do offer warranty and we do fix our f**k ups for free. Also we get paid lower than an auto electrician :-/

[Perspective]

Jack.
Without wanting to turn this into a Tit for Tat debate, for any
One example you give me of being charged for an error to be
Rectified, ill give you several to the contrary.
To read you say that Lame's do not have a lot of integrity and are part of the
"Problem" in GA is disappointing to say the least.
So all panel beaters are honest, professional and fix faults of their own making?

I have quite a few customers wanting to drop in whilst their aircraft is in for
Routine maintenance, i don't mind, because in every case, without fail, they leave with a better appreciation of what goes on and are thankful for the opportunity.
One of my customers and a life long family friend even suggested, an owner of an aircraft should be involved with at least one periodic from start to finish!

Fookker, every aircraft has a basic man hour Periodic/Annual baseline, and when asked your maintainer should be able to quote to you what that would be for your particular aircraft type, most should be able to give a good idea as to what a particular rectification will take before initiation.

When looking back 15 to 20 years at the hourly rate as apposed to today,
In my opinion the hourly rate in general today is without question too low,
And should be at least 95-100 P/H.
Think that's too high?
Had your car serviced lately?
Used a Tiler lately?

Too many times I chop hours off the invoice.

Lately, I have heard of some horror stories in regards to bills for maintenance, but I never comment as you never know if you are getting the whole story and is generally unprofessional. But there does seem to be a decreasing number of maintainers around the place, avionics in particular.

Don't make it a Lame bashing session, most I know personally are certainly not in it for the money, but, as in every industry without fail, there are those that stand out for the wrong reasons.

[Jack Ranga]

cravenmorehead, Mike Carlton actually ;)

To the other LAME's here.

Just promoting a bit of discussion, glad to see it's taking place :ok:

I've owned 2 aircraft, I've run the maintenance for one operator & I work part time as a pilot. My personal experiences (on my 2 planes), the bad outweigh the good, I can give you all of the circumstances if you wish? The other experiences have been about 50/50.

I can give you the hourly rates of all the trades I work with if you like & none of them approach $95 p/h, that's including the licenced trades (plumber/sparky). That's not to say that you aren't worth $95 p/h, I reckon you're probably worth a bit more than that PROVIDED: I get from you a charter of operations in writing that specifies rectifications will occur if the job is not done correctly. I would also like to see in that charter that if you haven't worked on the aircraft type that I'm having serviced a guarantee that I'm not paying you to learn on it. If an apprentice is doing all of the work on my aircraft and you're signing it off I'd like some sort of concession.

Perspective, would you like me to address all of the points you brought up or were they rhetorical points?

I would gladly take the details via PM of any LAME here that rectifies work if it's not done properly the first time & considers the above points.

[Aussie Bob]

ZAZ, sorry, I can't really see your problem ...

Buy the battery for $420.00 and fit it yourself or pay a LAME $720 (I am sure fitting would be included). Lets see, you need to unpack the battery, fill it with acid, charge it then remove and refit cowls or whatever. Sounds like around 2 hours labour to me.

A brand new Landcruiser will set you back around $80 - 100K. Add a heap of bling and your are looking at $120K. In 10 years, no matter how much you love it, its worth $20K tops. While you owned it you paid $120 - $150 per hour to get it serviced. Makes my plane look cheap.

Cables $1500? But they will last 10 - 20 years!

Here where I live the local plumber is $120.00 per hour and has a reputation for faultless work. My LAME charges me $95.00 and lets me work alongside him and help.

In the three decades I have been in aviation I have found LAMES Australia wide to be professional operators and I have never had a problem with any of them. BTW I have owned 6 different aircraft.

There is no such thing as an aeroplane with $40K worth of avionics. Certainly there are $40K avionics bills but the value added to the aeroplane is about the same as fitting mags, winch and air suspension to the above Landcruiser - perhaps it will be easier to sell.

For way too long old aircraft have been chronically overvalued in Australia, hopefully the prices will fall further.

40 year old 172's for $70K+? (Aviation Trader) Ring em up and tell him their dreaming ...

[Perspective]

Jack, (Mike! Ha)
PM coming.
After Friday madness ofcourse!

[Horatio Leafblower]

I have to agree with Jack Ranga, there are some shockers out there.

We have had the aircraft damaged (skins cracked) during a simple riveting job and the workshop refused to make good the damage or discount the job. Instead, they said "If you want to be kike that, find me the EO for that scab patch up there on the top of the fuselage". This on an aeroplane with 34,000 hours over 35 years of service :ugh:

We had a workshop pull the wrong engine for a calendar bulkstrip and only realise their mistake at the END of the job when they pulled out the logbooks. Despite having the logbooks, the MR and an emailed purchase order (all bearing the correct information) they refused to discount the bill saying it was OUR mistake.
"Can you show us a read-receipt for the email? No? Pay the bill or we won't send CASA the paperwork for the Bulk Strip approval".

Engineers are holding the industry to ransom and the good engineering firms are few and far between. We are now getting all our maintenance done 60nm away at considerable cost and inconvenience because of the above issues and those Jack Ranga has nominated.

No this is not open season on LAMEs but they aren't all as spotless as we would like to believe. Sadly I would also happily agree if you were to point out that the calibre of person attracted to being professional pilot is not what it used to be, either :ugh:

[Jack Ranga]

Bob, a few points of yours I agree with. If you think GA is happening at a reasonable cost I'd be interested in your thoughts on why GA is dying?

[Aussie Bob]

Jack, I don't think all aspects of GA are a reasonable cost, some are ludicrous. I think the cost of ownership of some GA aircraft is reasonable.

Mine is a simple two seat tandem bush plane with minimum instrumentation, a com radio and a transponder. Of course not all folk want to own such a simple machine. I count myself lucky, hangerage is $150.00 per calendar month on a farm strip, the average annual is around $1000.00 with me helping, the last one was $800.00. Parts are cheapish and the factory that built it is more than happy to deal with me direct. The last expense was a new airbox, $350.00 odd complete and ready for installation. I buy nothing at all for it in Australia because the Aussie parts dealers won't deal with me, all filters, plugs, fasteners etc come from Aircraft Spruce, usually for less than Aussie prices. I am more than capable of most things mechanical and I have a LAME friend who is happy to let me tinker. I am happy as a pig in poo whenever I fly it.

I have no data, but I suspect that if all RAA pilots were flying GA, the GA training businesses would be booming and there would still be GA schools at every regional airport. These schools would have an advanced trainer that would double up as a charter bird. RAA has provided a much cheaper, viable alternative for recreational pilots. RAA schools way outnumber GA schools in all areas of Australia.

Charter has died out due to dirt cheap airfares and reliable cheap to buy and drive cars. Without students, the meager offerings from Joe Public make charter only ownership non viable.

I also suspect the huge burden of debt the average Aussie is happy to take on has a lot to do with it as well. Disposable income is soaked up in repayments for consumer durables and mortgages. The average Aussie is cash poor but owns tons of crap financed on the never never.

CAsA of course are no help either with meaningless rules and red tape. An AOC application these days is only for the brave or foolish. The last one I had info on took two years to complete.

Horatio, I am sad to read your post, gobsmacked even.

[huntsman]

we pay $115/hr + GST for a LAME
Avionics @ $125/hr + GST
And we're located over 100nm from Maintenance

[HarleyD]

There is no such thing as an aeroplane with $40K worth of avionics.

Sorry Aussie Bob, what planet do you live on?

The days of the single Narco COM 11A, no TXPDR and a whiz wheel are well over

A Garmin GTN 750 primary and 650 backup with remote audio and voice activation, mode S with ADSB, traffic awareness, or TCAS, TAWS, and some weather info, storm scope or WX radar, comes to .........you tell me. Is an AFCS part of your avionics package? There goes another 40k...Garmin 500 ....ka ching!..but wait, 172 with dual G1000, surely that will be real cheap.....its only a 172...

Once you have flown with modern avionics package you will understand the safety and SA benefits. Do you drive an EH Holden still?

You can pay more for a Commodore than an avionics package! Dont worry about the Land cruiser, you would rather drive a series 1 landrover by the sound of it.

I operate a small fleet and am happy to pay $100 + per hour for LAME and avionics specialists. They sweat blood to do the job, at least the ones i use do. Well done guys, thanks and keep up the good work. Charge properly, stay in business and the true cost of such support will become a reality. Dont get squeezed by the ' squeezers' out there who whinge about the cost of keeping a puss barge flying. The better an aircraft is maintained ( not neccessarilty the more it is maintained) the more reliable and cost effective it becomes.

If you cant afford maintenance costs, you cant afford an aircraft, This is not the place to cut corners or seek budget solutions.

HD

[Arnold E]

Please tell me how much per hour you pay to service your BMW, WHAT?, you dont have a BMW, you cant afford it??? Well ok, how much to service your Volkswagon at your local Ultratune? at mine its $110 per hour and he doesnt have to sign for it or risk prosecution, Your LAME sounds cheap to me. :ugh:

[RatsoreA]

Check out the thread started by Jaba about Transponder installs and EO's if you think that some places are failing aircraft owners by trying to save money where reasonable and not safety critical...

[Aussie Bob]

Harley D, go buy a 20K 172, there are several examples around this figure in the current Trader. Fit 40K of avionics to them then try and get 60K on a resale.

Good luck.

I think you misread my post, certainly there are 40k avionics bills, I had one higher once and got sweet FA except an auto pilot. Sadly the plane's value remained static.

[yr right]

As an lame with over 30 years in the industry I find some of the comments here quite offensive. Lames are leaving more than ever due to the low pay poor conditions and the high price of complying with casa regs. Your local car service centre you pay more an hour at. Yet you all complain about your bills. I know how much is cut of most bills. Yet you all still complain. As I've said here before most people in ga cannot afford to own an aircraft. That the basic truth.

[Sunfish]

I have to agree with yr right. In building my experimental so far I have been humbled and re-educated over and over again, and I thought I knew what I was doing because I have an engineering degree and had some time with airlines and aerospace.

Just because an aircraft looks like its built of car components doesn't make it so. I learned the hard way that quite often you do things the reverse of how you do them on a car - and for good reason. Bolts that you would wrench the crap out of on a car are given a gentle torquing. Galvanised wire is preferable to stainless for controls and so on and so on. Even the brakes bleed "the wrong way" compared to a car.

In my opinion there is no comparison between car mechanics and LAMES, the latter is a skilled expert. The former usually a mere spanner twister.

To put that another way, it doesn't take much to screw up or break something on an aircraft during maintenance you need to be really stupid to do the same to a car.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Sunfish and yr right:

Would either of you like to address the (very recent) experiences I detailed on page 1 of this thread?

Would either of you defend the LAMEs who performed those tasks in such a manner?

Would either of you address Jack Ranga's "customer charter":

I get from you a charter of operations in writing that specifies rectifications will occur if the job is not done correctly. I would also like to see in that charter that if you haven't worked on the aircraft type that I'm having serviced a guarantee that I'm not paying you to learn on it. If an apprentice is doing all of the work on my aircraft and you're signing it off I'd like some sort of concession.

Blindly stating that one side is right and the other is wrong, or that nothing needs to change in the MRO side of the industry, is ... well, blind.

I think that GA is its own worst enemy a lot of the time, we do nothing to fight the common enemy and little to attract the general public to what we do. "Customer Service" and "value for money" is a concept LAMEs and MRO owners don't seem to understand but by which operators live and die.

One MRO at Bankstown consistently under-quotes (in both time and money) and when it runs over budget and over time he just shrugs. "That's what it took". Yeah but you quoted... *shrug*

Another MRO in country NSW handed me a 100-hourly inspection invoice for a simple piston single with 98 hours of labour. "Oh well our guys are learning the aeroplane" :ugh:

Your staff (pilots, engineers, sexertaries, everyone) are the tools by which you deliver a product to your customers. I would bet that no MRO owner would put up with the levels of service or the attitude I have seen from MROs if they were dealt with the same way in a cafe, a restaurant, or David Jones.

I have been consistently pleased with service from Eagle at Cessnock and Arena at Port Macquarie. Airag at BK go OK too. Ian Aviation at Archerfield are excellent.

All our maintenance now goes to Hunter Aerospace at Maitland and I will recommend them to anyone.

... the others.. well... :yuk:

The industry is changing gears gentlemen, GA will continue but it will get harder between now and 2016. Those who cannot apply modern concepts of customer service and regulatory (and other) compliance to their business will wither and die.

Remember that 120 years ago the Horse was the mainstay of transport in Australia. There were horse breakers, blacksmiths, wheelwrights, carriage builders, farmers providing feed, and breeders producing horses for all sorts of different jobs. As late as the early 1950s my Dad's first job was delivering bread with the Baker's horse in Roseville in Sydney. He used to deliver to your house and Rainbow's too, Dick Smith.

Horses are now a novelty, entertainment, a hobby and there are no blacksmiths, wheel wrights, carriage builders.

Would you argue their industry should have been protected? It was IMPORTANT. It made JOBS. :hmm:

WARNING: HERESY AHEAD.

GA is not a necessary part of the Australian economy. There is NO economic imperative for what we do. That is not to say we cannot deliver benefits and real economic value... but we MUST concentrate on delivering that value to the client at all stages in the supply chain.

If we cannot deliver that value, our prospective clients will find other ways of doing things and we will go the way of the Horse industry.

It is incumbent on ALL of us to play our part in delivering that value and instead of arguing about what coal miners are paid (those of them that still have jobs) let's get on with delivering good value and see what flows from that. :D

[yr right]

Oh yes we suppose to know everything and every ones aircraft intermitly and we all taught this as we go along. What's wrong with you fellas really. How the " f$&@" did you think we learnt in the first place. And as for cost this old aircraft require more and more work and inspections. It would be proven that who ever looking after your aircraft must not be to bad as you are still flying. As this air aft age bolts seize screws break and cracks appear. This is the world we live in. As for not knowning what the operator is doing in regards for cost we'll that is just crap. We know what happens. The problem is that operators under cut each other. The lame that's been subsidieing the industry forever. Time has come around now ( and it's going to get worse ) that lames are leaving and no one coming though to replace the looses. Why. As I've said low wages poor conditions and casa. Go rock the pilot tree and wear a hard hat. Rock the engineering tree and you will find it's empty. Whine all you like it's not going to fix it's self and why is that. Look at your own comments. Why would you won't to do it. Casa changed all the lic system to try and fix the problem with the instant engineer just add water we'll that's not going to work. You only start to really learn when you have your lic. And until you have and done the hard yards exams and finally get your hands on the little book you no one knows the resonposabilly that is then given to you. I've said it before and I'll say it again the hardest word as a lame is to say no. That means when your aircraft is broken is not going any where till it's fixed. And as I've said most of you can't afford to keep your aircraft. Don't blame the lame for this. It's about time if you think it's so easy go do the exams get your own lic do your own work

Cheers

[yr right]

I left a job when the cleaner was getting paid more than I was. I was looking after a twin turbine 19 seat aircraft. Wtf. This is not un common. But why would anyone come into an industry that dose support ' understand or really give a flying "f£€£ ". Won't hurt me in the future but will hurt you fellas if you continue the attitude on which your on now.

[RatsoreA]

HLB,

I didn't notice much heresy... Just the sad truth.

Much in the same way that Telcos cover 97% of the population, 97% of the population don't know anything about GA, and what they would know is limited to "that's small planes, right? Like Cessnas? Isn't it dangerous cos they crash all the time?". And I would say they are viewed almost exclusively as the playthings of the rich.

What does 97% of joe public need with a GA aircraft? Apart from the occasional scenic flight and those that need to go regional towns not serviced by airlines, not much.

And that is why politicians don't care, and why nothing regulatory will change. Not enough pressure and I doubt there ever will be. There aren't enough of us to make that big a fuss, and by and large the public don't care.

And with that in mind, you're spot on, there is no real incentive to put customer service as an important part of the service for LAMEs. They have owners over a barrel. It's almost like they are our customers, but we still pay them!

[Horatio Leafblower]

YrRight,

I am not attacking LAMEs.

There are good and bad LAMEs and Good and Bad operators and good and bad aircraft owners.

As an operator, one of the things spurring me to own my own aircraft was the fact many aircraft owners are dead****s looking for the cheapest nastiest solution to everything. The aircraft would end up under lien from the MRO or awaiting parts on stop credit from the owner... then I would bail out the aircraft to get it flying and hey presto the owner takes it elsewhere and it ends up in the same cycle.

Attacking everyone is not going to help the industry.

Blaming CASA is not going to help the industry.

If the hamburger shop you go to makes crappy burgers, you gotta either
1/. Make do with crappy burgers or
2/. find a better burger shop.

Every service industry is the same and I have paid lots of money for bad maintenance... but ended up going elsewhere and buying a better burger.

If we give bad service, the customers stop coming. You can't blame the customer.

Cheers

[yr right]

I don't understand how you can say we have the industry or yourself over a barrel. All we try and do is our job correctly to the m/m and to the regs. Neither of which as lames we have control over. Most operators treat the Maint org as there personal bank. Bet you can't get your car serviced and pick it up and say I'll pay you later. Sorry sir you need to pay for it before it leaves the premises. But you expect credit from your maintenance org. If you don't like your maintence org take your aircraft else where that's a given. But it's not the lame fault that your aircraft a piece of ****. As what often happens you get it for a service after it's been neglected for ages. You get it up to speed then you cry poor on how much it cost. Then next service you take it else where. Next service chep as cause all the work is done. This continues until it's back again and the cycle continues. Mm and whilst you may be happy to have your plugs competely worn and be happy with that the lame has a duty of care to the person sitting next and behind you as they have no idea what's been done. It's also not the lame responsabity for the cost of parts if they required to make the aircraft serviceable. If you can't afford to maintain your aircraft to the standard required sell it and then rent an aircraft for your flight.

At the end of the day it's not the lame responsabity to subaduze your flying pleasure. Until you wake up up and relize this quickly there won't be any lames and then you will have to pay.

[Sunfish]

In the marine industry we have a saying: "no cash, no splash". It don't float until the bill is paid.

[Horatio Leafblower]

In the Aviation industry we have decided the only way to make money is to own your engineers so you can control the output.

I notice yr right and sunfish continue to talk about money when the real problem, and the complaint from Jack R and self, continues to be quality and competence and customer service.

I guess it's easier to just argue money. :rolleyes:

[yr right]

We'll I'll say this. Hit a dog long enough and he will bite you. Now call the Maint org or the engineer the dog and the costumer has the stick. I had one aircraft in the shop doing a service. The opposition aircraft had a minor problem. We stop work on the service to fix the small problem. Only to have the owner come down and abuse us of not working on his aircraft as he was in first. I said small problem and we will be back in the other aircraft soon. After more abuse I said we'll when his aircraft is in and you have a small problem pleased don't bring your aircraft down you will have to wait till we finish the other aircraft in future. So off he went knowing he just made a cock of himself. Service goes both ways. Like the aircraft I just down out of a service and a week later on it's first flight it had a problem. Owner came in abusing us for doing a **** job only to have a C/B failure. Next day his other aircraft in same type so we changed out the same C/B as the other aircraft. What next abuse for changing it out. wtf. It's an impossible to please most owners. We the evil devil. Al we do is cost you all money.

[Aussie Bob]

Sounds like lots of people abuse you yr right. I wonder why?

[yr right]

Actually that don't bob. Only the fools do !

[Jack Ranga]

What about a charter yr right? Thought about it?

[yr right]

What about a charter sorry you lost me ?

[Perspective]

I believe he means your business charter,
Your goal, commitment to customers etc

[yr right]

We'll I've always given 110% to what I do and what I give. That's why I always have work. Also that's why I have the record I have. You never get an aircraft back from me that I would not fly In myself. If that dose not suit then I'm not interested in your aircraft. It that simple
Cheers.