View Full Version : Replys to C.V's
26th May 2002, 11:33
This might not be popular with employers but what the hell.
You spend hours and hours writing letters and filling out online application forms, send them all of at no small cost only to get replies to about half of them.
Is it acceptable that these company's do not even have the common decency to acknowledge the receipt of your details?
Who knows in a year or so they might need us!!
26th May 2002, 12:25
Yes it disapointing, and last time i was applying it really got up my nose, but look at it from their point of view too.
Airlines (in the uk), receive 1000's of applications a year. To reply to alll of them would be a full time job - money that, particularly in te current climate (and i don't mean sunny spells and heavy showers), could be better spent elsewhere.
Before 9/11 my airline had around 1300 applications on file. Not sure but i guess this is after they have weeded out the ones that are unsuitable !
26th May 2002, 13:59
A lot CV's are not worth replying too!
People seem to miss out a lot of the basic information, like age? availability? IR and medical current? CAA reference number... even contact details! And what the hell does 'available quite soon' suppose to mean!
Worst CV I ever saw was an email with five attachments...
page 1 big jpeg face picture
page 2 the letters 'CV' in font 48
page 3 the CV itself
page 4 flying career timeline
page 5 flying career summary (this is a 190hr graduate!)
page 6 references
our paper shredder never goes hungry :D
26th May 2002, 15:07
Having recently done a round of CV firing i met with a situation of many operators not bothering to respond (all relevant info was included). After a call to the British European recruitment department they confirmed that they have been so inundated that i wouldn't be getting a reply (oh well theres 26p i won't see again). I imagine all the same people are sending to all the same operators. I suppose the only chance of making sure your CV is on the top of the pile is to keep sending updates and hope you don't **** them off. As for people not including relevant information on there CV, that is quite incredible!!
26th May 2002, 15:10
Not to sure why an employer would want to see a CAA reference number on a CV!!!!!!
26th May 2002, 15:42
Even though it was the worst CV you have ever seen, it had the desired effect, which was you remembered it. OK for the wrong reasons but who cares, not that i'm saying a cr@<hidden> CV is the way to get a job, far from it. I know it gives a bad impression but lets not forget he has had to do all the same ground examinations and flight tests to the same standards. So he's abit shabby when it comes to the use of microsoft word.
26th May 2002, 18:19
Being on the receiving end of your CV's, I hope the following will help!
As Expedite says, consider it from our point of view though. We would love to reply to every CV - fact - we're not a bunch of hard-nosed b*stards, it's worse when lots of effort has been put in, but the volumes of CV's that we're receiving is substantial. We receive upwards of 20 CV's a day at the moment (i.e. we're not Easyjet or Ryanair!) and most efficient airlines have reduced admin staff in order to cut costs and keep flying, as a result we can't afford half a day's work just replying. It's not the cost of envelopes and stamps that stops us replying, it's staff cost.
Contrary to popular belief we do read every CV though. So you can help yourselves by helping us, in the following way:
i) Keep your CV down to one page of A4. This applies to any application you do, aviation or not. I read page one and that's it.
ii) Bullet points on the top of the page with pertinent information. We're interested in licences, ratings, hours and previous employers. Your trek across the Andes is fascinating, but best left to the interview. We're looking for pilots, not Indiana Jones...
iii) E-mail is the best way of submitting it. This ensures it goes to the right person and isn't on paper which just fills up space on the desks and in the filing cabinets. Eventually we have to have a paperwork clearout... Most companies now have either website submission or a dedicated recruitment e-mail.
iv) Don't attach your Wets, First Aid, GSCE or Scouts/Guides Firelighting Certificates... It's superflous information for us and will, immediately, be treated in the same way as paper in iii) above. When you are applying for a position, the minimum standard is usually stated and then if you meet that we'll check your certificates later.
v) You can't beat contacts. This is mentioned time after time after time here. Get your face known, say hello to every pilot you meet - remember (and this may be a little controversial!) pilots love telling you about themselves and their flying. You all know that deep down!!
vi) We appreciate that you want to do a bit of cold-calling and ask about vacancies. For us, a smaller operator, this is fine. We can save you more time and effort if we have no vacancies planned. The majority of aviation companies know when our vacancies are likely to occur and plan our recruitment around them. Most companies will be able to tell you whether it's worth sending a CV in. One word of advice though, if you're going to phone up, know the basics about the company. I'm not going to make your task easy for you! If you phone up to check the Chief Pilot's name, at least find it out first - if you ask me I'm going to end the call quickly because you're not showing much initiative. If you're not going to make an effort, then neither are we.
I hope the above helps us all. We've all been in the same boat looking for jobs and I've still got my file of rejection letters from the start of my career. If the others had replied the file would've been about 50% larger - I know how it felt to not get a response, but having seen it from the other side of the fence I can appreciate why I didn't now.
Keep trying, you'll get there eventually. Like you say Flying Farmer when we need you management will suddenly find the staff to reply...
And, to the person who sent in a multimedia CV (it's the only one I've seen) well done, it made an impression - however I've not had chance to look at it yet...
Perhaps one side of A4 would've been better?
26th May 2002, 22:22
I couldn't have put it better. Read and inwardly digest, peeps.
26th May 2002, 22:26
Daifly, very good advice, I'm sure a lot of wannabes will make good use of it. What about cover letters? Absolute must but should be short and sweet? Is it worth embelishing a little to show off your knowledge of the company and that you bothered to do a bit of background work?
Wee Weasley Welshman
26th May 2002, 23:34
Thanks for that Dai. I too have a file somewhere stuffed full of rejection letters. Not getting a resonse is demoralising.
But it they aren't advertising then they are under no obligation to reply.
27th May 2002, 06:24
Thanks for the replys,spelt right second time( late night)
All points taken on board. My C.V runs to one side of A4 and a short consise covering letter is sent, so no problem there.
The point I'm trying to make is that some companys state that the reciept of the C.V will be acknowledged. Two or three of the larger companys haven't done this. All I want to know is that they have not gone astray in the post.
27th May 2002, 13:14
Since you do read allof the CVs; how would you react to finding a SAS(E)-card with perhaps 3 questions on it; date received, you do /do not meet our requirements, Your CV will be held on file for ___ months.
would you take the additional time to fill in the blanks?
Has any Wannabe, with initiative, :rolleyes: ever tried this?
27th May 2002, 21:25
"our paper shredder never goes hungry"????
I didn't know you did the hiring and firing now. Not a bad job seeing as you only left Cabair about two months ago!?!?
28th May 2002, 00:07
Bored of the tugging yet? havn't seen your cv yet!
Understand Ashley had YOUR mate for lunch on his IR the other week :D
28th May 2002, 12:18
I have to say that Daifly's post really should go into some sort of wannabees archive that must be read before new joiners are given access to this forum.
Fly 146 - what's so important about a CAA reference number?
28th May 2002, 20:59
Phew! - thanks for the comments, I didn't realise that one day I'd actually post something useful!
Let's look at your questions then...
i) Covering Letters Spiral Dive. Yes, of course. A CV without one is like a phone call without the "hello". Short and sweet is good, as you're going to print the information again on the CV. But you can fit your licence and type rating details onto one line. I won't stop on your covering letter though, like I said, I always read page one!
ii) On that subject you can put something about the company in. It'll make me a bit more interested in your CV when I see you've made an effort. But read it, and get someone else to read it. Your comment about how you spent £XX,000 on your licence because "...the King Air was the only aircraft I ever wanted to fly..." will probably have the same effect on me as it just did on you when you read it! I.e. "Yeah, yeah, NEXT!"
iii) As WWW said, if we're not advertising then it is courteous for us to reply, but it is unsolicited mail after all (I know, harsh but fair) so it's not a black mark against us if we don't. If you want to confirm that it's been received feel free to put in an SAE or postcard in. I don't think many companies would be cruel (stupid!) enough to not just pop it into the post room. You can try and ask for some checkboxes to be filled, but know from my own application experience that it may not happen - you'll just get a blank card back.
iv) Your CAA Reference Number has no bearing on me! We'll get it from your licence, assuming you sent in a one page CV ;o)
Wee Weasley Welshman
28th May 2002, 23:46
Dai - Can you keep some of the more inane submissions you receive? I would like to see them published here (anonomised) in a long standing occassionally revived thread as an example of what NOT to send.
ps There are no Archives any more - everything is kept forever. What a big 'Puter we have these days...
29th May 2002, 07:25
Edited versions, yep, don't see why not.
(Please could everyone in future indicate on their covering letter whether or not they are happy with its inclusion on Pprune!)
29th May 2002, 12:46
This is a really interesting thread...now..
OK - why only a SINGLE page CV...single page 2 sided(? he says hoepfully) or single sided?
OK..now ive been working for some 13 years in computers...now fATPL/FI(A) looking for that first role with the airlines...now my CV has the vital info on the front...contact details, availability, licences, ratings (rather a large section this it would appear!), hours, current flying schools (where im an instructor) and a history of my flight training...but this leaves me no room for other bits like personal details, my employment history - which shows at least some background in the airlines having worked on projects for BA...so do you *really* want me to ignore the second page...or should I just print it double-sided so only 1 bit of paper floats around?
Advice greatly appreciated - Ive spent weeks working on the CV and just spent a couple of days re-working it...Im now looking for the final polish before letting it venture out (again)...
29th May 2002, 18:48
Single-sided single-page CVs only, please! As Daifly suggests earlier, nothing more will get read. If, after 25 years in aviation, I can get the salient points of my career on to a single side - so can you!
The important thing is that only the information that the potential employer needs to be sure you fit his requirements is presented on the CV. Anything else is extraneous, although you might feel it's worth bringing up at interview - if it's relevant. Remember, he doesn't need your life story. He only needs to know enough to make it worth him asking you more at interview.
For instance, so what if you have type-ratings on 35 light piston aircraft and have flown from 120 different light-aircraft fields? If you're applying to a company that operates 737s out of 3000m fields, these facts are hardly relevant, are they!? Having said that, note that it takes just one line to say:
'rated on 25 GA types, flown from 120 European airfields'.
Your employment history should really only show those things, again, that are relevant to your potential employer. It's of no interest to him that in 1988 you ran a software development team of 25 people, whose every need was your task to satisfy. A simple '1943-1997 various management posts in Computer Industry' will suffice. Hard on you - I know you deeply want EasyJet or Ryanair (or whoever) to know every detail of your success in developing graphics sub-routines for Acme Software, but the Chief Pilot of these airlines doesn't give a sh*t. He isn't looking for software engineers! He wants to know that you have an ATPL, the right number of hours, a current IR, you've flown in the last six months, and you can start yesterday - and how to get hold of you to tell you.
If, on the other hand, you have a 25-year history of flying various still-current jet types for other organisations, it's relevant and should be included - but only in the broadest terms. Such as:
1977-81. RAF. Various types. 1500 hours.
1981-88. Laker Airways. DC10 f/o & capt. 4000 hrs.
1988-90. Dan Air. BAC111 f/0. 1000 hours.
1991-92. Air Europe. B737-100/200 f/o & capt. 1000 hours.
1993-2001. Virgin Atlantic. B747-200/400 f/o & capt. 6800 hours.
Keep it brief, keep it relevant. Make an impact with only the essential facts.
29th May 2002, 19:03
Aha. Cheers scroggs....so MAKE it 1 page A4, 1 side ONLY - and be harsh on ourselves - stick strictly to the relevent....
So Given that I have the correct pieces of paper, are the airlines interested in where I did my training?
I also assume thereforethat college/school from 13 years ago is also irrelevent?
...and interests etc should be just plain axed yes?
In terms of hours - what sort of breakdown is being looked for...TT, ME, PIC, Night, Instrument, instructing? Less? More? Hours - suppose only light a/c time and ignore the M/L and simulator time? yes?
OK and now the biggy - and you can be brief I dont wanna hog much of peeps time here...what 'something' is it that people look for which gets you to asked to interview? I mean - what can I do to improve my chances - I mean lets face it - 1000's of us all waiting in the wings as instructors etc just waiting for the call - what makes any one of us different? What would attract the call? I cant accumulate any more ratings!!!!! (Well by the end of the summer I cant....CAA dont offer enough!!)
TIA for the *extremely* useful comments
29th May 2002, 19:12
Hi Guys, Agree with what Dai and Scroggs say. It is a pain having to delve through the niff naff. I used to write back to all but after aboout 200 it loses its sense of need. Make sure all the pertinant facts are there including age and if you send by email tick the box for the recpient to acknowledge receipt of said CV, they have to tick one of the boxes, at least you know they have got it. Remember short sweet and to the point, some poor ****** has to sort through them all and put the relevant details onto a data base. Hope it helps and Scroggs don't believe ya on all them dates and types I was with you later than that!!!!Only joking keep up the help for the guys.:D
29th May 2002, 19:48
Fergie - wasn't supposed to be my CV! Mine, of course, would be far more impressive. Not!
FF. Ah - now the difficult ones! Basically, it's a bit of a numbers game. You've got to ensure, firstly, that your CV doesn't get binned because it's the wrong size, shape, colour, smell or whatever. Having passed that first filter, you need to actually fit the requirements of your targetted employer. If you don't have the hours, licence, availability or whatever, you're out. If you haven't included contact details (it happens!), you ain't going nowhere!
Once these filters have been applied, you must by definition fit the requirements of the airline. However, you may not fit as well as other applicants - those who've perhaps got ratings and hours on that airline's types. Whether you get an interview (or even a third CV reading) will depend on how many posts are up for grabs, and how many qualified CVs remain. There's an apocryphal story that a Chief Pilot, faced with a pile of hundreds of acceptable CVs for only a few jobs, picked up the majority of the pile and filed it in the bin, saying 'We don't need unlucky pilots'. It can be that arbitrary!
Where you did your training isn't really very relevant as long as you have the licence, but if you've just graduated you need to fill up that side of A4 somehow! Same for interests; if yours coincide with your potential interviewer's, they may help. If it happens that he hates your hobby of lepidoptery, it wasn't a good idea to have told him!
As for hours, this will very much depend on your level of experience and the requirements of your target employer. If you have lots of hours, quals and types, you may well find your CV gets binned if it looks like an Excel spreadsheet full of figures. On the other hand, if you only have 250 hours you are going to have to prove what you did with them! Remember, you will be asked to produce your logbooks if you're asked to interview - that's the time to discuss the more esoteric and interesting facets of your flying career. Again, to get that interview you must show you meet their requirements - no more, no less.
As for your 'biggie', I have to say that luck plays a very large part when the numbers are against you. The thing that may well play most in your favour, given that all other things are satisfied, is that someone in the airline can recommend you to the bod doing the choosing. Many airlines use this as one of their primary selection criteria! Obviously, the larger the airline, the less this technique can be employed, but, as in all things, who you know can be very important.......
29th May 2002, 20:52
scroggs Cheers very very much indeed.
CV now suitably tidied up. Covering letter short and sweet...obviously last august I gave you all too much paper to worry about!
Cheers once again!
29th May 2002, 20:56
Some good info and thanks for your time. My CV a year ago (before applying for flying jobs) started at two pages but after a session with the chaps at the BALPA Employment Conference its now whittled down to one as you rightly suggest; hasn't got me an interview yet but then unless you're type rated or bloody lucky I don't think anyone will for a few months. BALPA's Airwaves was a bit more upbeat this month so fingers crossed.
29th May 2002, 21:02
Forgot to mention this: it is relevant to include things like instructor ratings. You don't need to go into detail, but it may make the difference between you and the next guy! Of course, if you were employed as an instructor (or did it part-time) it should be covered in your precis of your career.
29th May 2002, 21:43
Haven't had time to dig around my e-mail today and find some bad examples, I will get chance after the Bank Holiday.
I'm glad that this thread is being found to be helpful, after all, it's helping both you and us if we can make the process quicker for everyone.
I received an e-mail today and it asked a good question, so I'll repost the answer here. Sending your CV by e-mail makes no difference to your position in the pile. We obviously have to be fair with everyone so you'll go into the pile on an "as received" basis. The only difference is that I can attach notes to the CV and then file it in place, rather than have to keep it in a foolscap file.
Recruitment is very much my second role. Principally I occupy a strategic role, so my time is pretty scarce (NB not valuable!!). As a result when I walk in in the morning I get two piles of post, one which is general and one which is just CVs. I spend, at most, 20 minutes going through the CV pile - as I said before, with 20+ CVs a day, that's 1 minute per CV. Even the slowest mathematically amongst you will realise that it aint long! I need to know within 30 seconds the important information:
i) What you want/are looking for.
ii) If you're low on hours, where you trained (as Scroggs said). If you're not low on hours, you can say quickly what you're currently doing and why you want to leave (important).
i) Who you are.
ii) Where you are.
iii) Licence-wise, where you are, including IR.
iv) Type ratings, on pertinent types. (This is starting to repeat Scroggs a bit now - his post on how to display types was spot on).
v) Education and Work History.
And that's it.
I staple covering letter onto CV (if you've not done it) and write on the space you've kindly left me on the letter what level you're at and subdivide them into two piles:
i) File, and (I'm sorry!)
On average one CV will get through to file on a daily basis. You can now see why I simply don't have the time to reply.
But still, knowing people makes all the difference..... I see CVs from people who I've met and I will spend more time on them and, may, keep them on file where I usually wouldn't have. However, I am also a tremendous judge of character and can spot a friendly approach from a job hunt at 4 miles on the ILS... It's so easy to say hello to people and get talking, I'm so surprised that no-one believes me! CRM after all, you have to know how to communicate!
Carry on posting your questions, I'm starting to feel important!
30th May 2002, 09:53
Daifly - Again another helpful post - thanks once again....now all I need is the IPA to list all your e-mail addresses!!! (and no I dont blanket bomb/mail merge - I dont like that approach and never will - if I apply to an airline its because I *want* to work for them rather want *any* job).
Re: hours breakdown...I have some hours which are Mircolight (approx 55hrs). Now up to 100 ML hours are valid towards ATPL issue...should I include these hours in my TT (as per CAA definition of TT) or forget them...perhaps adding a note of the hours...
and what about sim hours - I have 50 hours CAA approved FNPT1/2.....do you want to see a note of these?
(yes Im fairly low hours - about 600TT)
30th May 2002, 15:20
Excellent thread. As an employer I would like to throw my 10 Euro in.
Daifly, as do other employers, has some excellent advice. Applicants read his post ten times.
I totally agree with only sending in a one page CV and a "cover letter." If you desire to learn if your CV was received, if you use Outlook express or Outlook, ask for a receipt. I will gladly send you one. It is not possible to personally respond to every CV, however doing the above will at least assure you that it was received. I do read every one.
Climbto350 and AEPS use similar tools to generate "enrollment forms" or similar e-mails. This requires that the employer then download your resume. Sorry, personally I do not have the time to do your work for you. Send in your CV/Cover letter as an attachment.
I recently advertised for an FO (P-2) position, and received approximately 350 replies. The advertisements were very specific on the minimum requirements to apply. Approximately 200 were not even close. I.E. require 1500 hours TT, and receive CV's indicating 200 hours TT, or require a ME rating and receive single engine rated resumes.
I know this is argumentative, but if you are not even in the ballpark, well, it is your Euro, IMHO.
Additionally, the advertisement stated clearly, if sent by e-mail, attach your resume as Word Perfect or Microsoft Word. There was a reason for this. This is the only word processing software we possess. I received CV's in three other formats. They were deleted, as essentially I did not receive anything. Why would we want to hire someone who can not follow simple instructions.
Remember the expression "first impressions?"
;) ;) ;)
31st May 2002, 08:23
"Sending your CV by e-mail makes no difference to your position in the pile. The only difference is that I can attach notes to the CV and then file it in place, rather than have to keep it in a foolscap file. "
Do you mean that you attach the notes onto an email version, as oposed to a paper copy? (Sorry to be so thick).
Is a CV more likely to be lost in the mass of others in a computer list, as opposed to a hard copy version of the list?
Thanks for your input- most helpful!
31st May 2002, 10:19
Check 6 - cheers for the tips...
Can I make a request?...as an employer requesting CVs in specific word processor formats can you also add the version of the software you are using...i.e. the maximum version of the file you can read.
You see each new version of MS Word uses a new format...if you only have Word 6 and I produce my CV under MS Word 95 or Word 2000 then you cannot read my file.....even though I have done precisely what you asked for...Each version does allow writing of a backwards compatible version and that would help us both out!
I am currently freelance in the computer industry and its amazing the number of people who e-mail me back saying my CV was not in Word format when it was - its their software thats out of date...
Cheers for the info,
31st May 2002, 10:21
Slightly of topic, but it has been mentioned as a question of how to get yourself noticed when you are in the majority (low hours).
As Daifly says, meeting someone who has left a good impression will make him more inclined to spend a little more time on that cv and perhaps keep it when it would otherwise have been filed under WPB (waste paper bin).
Whilst times are very difficult for the candidates seeking employment, networking has to be time well spent in the job hunt market. If you don't do it sure as eggs someone else will be.
So, Formation Flyer, I would suggest that this is what will make your cv stand out from the crowd rather than the words on the page (with all respect, if everyone elses 'fits' the requirements, there is little else you can do with the words and format to get it noticed).
When the recruiting picks up things will inevitably be easier, but you will still be trying to get noticed from a large pile. Even the trusty phone calls can get you noticed. You have to be careful, as always, not to become a pain, but it worked for me. The airline were recruiting and I had the minimum number of total hours required (700) but being a large IT carrier there were hundreds of applicants with much more total time and on heavier types than me. For 4 1/2 months I kept abreast of the situation by calling every couple of weeks for an 'update' and a chance to get my name in their thoughts again. Recruitment was being administered by the CP's PA and she was a tough cookie! Every so often I would try to get the CP (I'd done my homework and found out he was an amenable guy who would always speak to a wannabe and give his frank opinion). The way he stopped getting every wannabe calling him was to have his PA filter the calls! I rang during lunch hours to bypass her and spoke to him 4 times in 4 months..........timing was down to luck and it just so happened that the last time I called he found himself 1 pilot short for a course start date..................
As ever, good luck
31st May 2002, 10:40
Formation flyer: thanks for the feedback. We have the lastest versions of both, and I have always been able to open CV's sent in WP or MW.
For some strange reason, the last go-around we received dozens of CV's attached as "zip" files. We are unable to open them, and have no other reason to purchase the software. There were also some other formats that I did not recognize and could not open. They were deleted.
These are examples of poor "first impressions" and in this competitive world......
I will keep in mind your suggestion, but in light of being able to open all CV's received in WP or MW without considering the version, I am at a loss to understand how this is a problem.
Please provide more feedback and educate me.
:D :D :D
31st May 2002, 12:31
Yeah with the latest version you will be OK and will be able to open everything - the problem comes when they release the next version and you keep your current version.....yet the person sending you the CV has upgraded - the new file format he has written cant then cant be read by your older s/w. Glad to know its not been a problem.
As for ZIP/RAR/ACE formats - these are compressed formats designed to reduce filesize and thus e-mail time. WinZip is shareware downloadable (read free!) - there is no need to buy it - (www.winzip.com i think). The folks sending you CVs in these formats are just trying to save time during transfer....so they may well have sent you a CV in the format you requested - but compressed it is one of these archive - so they havent exactly ignored your request...just thought they were helping you/themselves so a large file download was unecessary......
That said there should be no need to compress a word doc - its only gonna be a few Kb anyway...
BTW - Thanks for the info....its helpful to know that its best just to e-mail it straight rather than trying to be clever and compress the file - because the target employer may not have the compression s/w required to look at it!
Its also interesting to know that those peeps who are looking to employ us really do start to evaluate us based on all that we provide...so here is another question.......
If you receive a paper CV do you like to see time & effort taken to choose good quality paper or is any old 80gms paper suitable!? (personally I have a stock of good quality conquerer purely for printing my CV /letters on...) - Im just wandering what effect such things have on you (the prospective employer).
Also....are there preferences to 'style' of layout of CV - I guess this is kinda personal but obviously there must be styles which you just go 'oh no'...and bin it...!
31st May 2002, 12:57
Pilot Pete: Cheers. The I really dont wanna cold call and p*** the folks off with yet another wannabe chasing a non-existent job.....but as you say...homework pays off....I have a shortlist of about 5 airlines that I would *really* like to work for...obviously I have my favourites amongst those...
Im just too concious of being a nuisance!
But I want that job. 6 years of hard work, im not letting it go yet! So I guess Ill gen up more and more and be a little more forward and persistent without miffing anyone off...
Thanks for the advice.
31st May 2002, 13:09
Formationflyer, I will attempt to answer your questions. You did read between the lines, i.e. why zip a CV in the first place. Also, if the employer provides instructions, there must be a reason, so do not be creative, just follow the instructions, period.
Yes, I would hope that all employers evaluate to some degree the applicant based on what is provided. Again, unless otherwise requested, a CV and cover letter will suffice. I forgot to mention previously, it is extremely important that the applicant writes the CV to fit the specific position applied for. i.e. provide sufficient information to show that you meet the requirements spelled out in the advertisement. By not doing this places the CV in the wrong pile (not good).
I receive few CV's via the mails, as it takes too long in this electronic age. I do receive faxed copies, and that is OK, as I provide the information to fax them in my advertisements. So, to answer your question regarding quality paper, yes, this does leave a positive impression. i.e. all other things being equal, a quality CV does stand out. I used to see these in the States, but not in Europe due to the slow mails.
As far as style, my personal preference is an easy to read font and font size, nothing artistic or creative, just professional. Write a CV to please the prospective employer. Again, first impressions count in this highly competitive market.
Additionally, as far as phone calls, I will take calls, but do not currently list my non-fax number in the advertisement. So to contact me, one needs to do a little research, and that shows initiative. Our phone numbers are not readily available.
Other contributors above have made excellent suggestions regarding composing a CV. We do not care about your trips to Tibet, etc. I suggest to submit a CV "tailored" for the position applied for. This may only require a very minor change. I do not believe that one size fits all.
An example is: POSITION APPLIED FOR: First Officer position with British Airways.
This is much better than: First Officer Position.
I have received resumes in the past with another company listed, very funny actually. The applicant got in too much of a hurry and did not proof-read his CV.
This reminds me, proof-read your CV and cover letter, and do it again, and then have another person do it. You would be suprised how many I receive with mis-spelled words or poor grammar. I do not throw these out, but again, are not very impressive.
Enough of my rambling on,
good weekend to all.
:D :D :D
Are abbreviations OK?
E.g. ATPL or FI(A) etc etc?
I ask because I would assume that there are non-pilot staff involved in sifting applications......
One thing that amazed me when I sent out my CV originaly, was that to save companies money and a little time I enclosed a stamped adressed envelope. Of the approx. 50% of companies that decided to reply only 2 or 3 used the envelope, so much for saving money.
Could companies not just have a card saying, sorry no vacancies at present or come back with x hours? I am luck enough to have a job now but not with a company I even applied too!!
3rd Jun 2002, 12:04
A few airlines - BA / Britts and think Titan do send (or did a few years ago) a fairly standard letter that didnt even have your name on it, detailing their position. I was amused that it took Britts 6 months to do this though !!!
Charlie Foxtrot India
3rd Jun 2002, 12:35
For what it's worth, here is a view from the recieving end of many CVs.
I only employ instructors, yet I still get CVs from people asking for charter work. Often same CVs are addressed to "Dear Sir" again an indication that the "I am very keen to work for your company" really means "This is mass produced and I have no idea who you are or what you do". So I don't feel guilty about not replying to those!
Another thing that really bugs me is complete unknowns who come in without an appointment DEMANDING to see me! These people have no regard for the fact that the time they have come in is actually allocated to someone who has had the manners to make an appointment, or to comlete work by a deadline, so why should I make time for a stranger with bad manners? Remember a CP is a busy person, and the reason we have front desk staff guarding us is because otherwise we would never get any work done.
In the early days I emplyed a couple of unknowns on the strength of their CVs. This was a mistake that I learned from very quickly. Mainly because the time and money spent training these peope to do the job properly made it uneconomical. Similarly the place where peope have trained is vital, and there are now only a couple of places I would recruit from. So, it really does matter where you do the training, and I tell you what, it ain't the sausage factories!
Now, if I have a vacancy I will scan the network and see who is out there, ask my preferred instructor trainier if they have any new graduates, or interview someone who is strongly recommended by a trusted colleague. If someone who had a good reputation and had already made a good impression only had a CV handwritten on the back of an old envelope that would be fine.
SO: Make a good impression from day one of your training, get to know people, listen to people, never get drunk and make an idiot of yourself in front of other pilots, and remember, you make your own luck in this game.
3rd Jun 2002, 14:00
I e-mailed a British charter company asking whether they would be recruiting in the near future-it was only a month or so ago. Within 5 minutes the phone rang and it was the HR dept of that airline. Unfortunately it wasn't good news but at least they took the time to call me. I was speechless when I answered the phone.
4th Jun 2002, 20:39
Just checking my e-mail at the end of a rather too-well celebrated Bank Holiday.... Ouch, my head.
Right, well done those of you who have taken the trouble to right and thank me for my pointers. Like I said, it's helping both parties - and it's fun sorting out the ones who are just doing it to network! Ah, don't be scared, keep 'em coming...
BUT, please think about your mails... I'm not really going to send you a copy of my ideal Aviation CV am I!?! Perhaps I will take some time and post my ideal one here on PPRuNe in the week for reference.
In answer to some of the questions directed at me:
i) Tosh McCaber - Indeed, I can attach notes to e-mailed CVs. I also change the Title of the E-mail accordingly, with my own codes. CV's arriving into the company go into a separate folder and are therefore kept aside from other routine e-mails.
ii) As Check 6 said, make it Word or Wordperfect, that way I can read both using just MS Word. As for versions, assume the highest, then backwards compliancy will work, in any case, I will be able to read it, just possibly without any fancy editing you've done. If your WP package is neither of the above, invest in either of the above!!
iii) I'm not going to deal with ZIP file questions as two sides of A4 aren't going to be worth ZIPping!! Suffice to say, I can open ZIP if you insist. But don't send it to me as a self-extracting file, I aint going to open it for virus fears, though the system will stop it before then anyway).
iv) There are ways and means of bypassing the system and speaking to the right person. Every person will have a good story to tell you of networking, so I'll leave that to your own research!
v) Paper quality has effect on some people, such as lawyers and Government. For me, I really don't care! But be assured that the money spent on your application/CV is not in anyway connected to your position in the (by now, quite famous) pile! I realise this differs from Check 6's position - but then that's the job world you're dealing with!! Perhaps electronic is better then...?
vi) Maybe 5 times out of 10 you'll get someone on the phone who sounds p*ssed off, but the other 50% it'll be someone who'll spend some time with you. At our place, even the CP answers the phone sometimes.....
vii) Yep, proof read and tailor your covering letter and CV. Don't address it to one airline and then use another "Dear..." name. Not good. In bin. That sort of route for those.
viii) Abbreviations are fine. You're dealing with people who know the terms. If you think they might not (for whatever reason - foreign licences etc) then spell it out. But don't talk down!
ix) Batty - each company has its own procedure for outgoing mail, where airline or not. Some insist on using their own stationery. But as was mentioned earlier in the topic, you are sending speculative CVs, there is no onus on the airline to reply at all, for smaller carriers getting cards printed is still going to cost a few hundred quid, when there are more things that that few hundred can go on. Like proper food during the day in BA's case, that sort of thing ;o) (sorry, cheap shot).
x) Read Charlie Foxtrot India's post above. It recommends networking. Perhaps a theme here...!?! It's a good post. Honest Fr@<hidden> - I'm glad that some of us are beginning to know we'll need you more than you'll need us at some point!
If you've got a specific request that I (and my far more esteemed colleagues) can help with feel free to post. I don't really have a huge amount of time to reply to each of your mails individually and it's fairer for it to be posted for everyone to read in any case. And the editor's decision is final.