Bergen to Shetland Islands

[WhatGoesUpMustComeDn]

Hi folks, first post on PPRuNe - I'd be grateful for your thoughts on this (admittedly left field) question. The distance between Bergen Airport and e.g. Tingwall in the Shetland Isles is approx 200nm. Given VMC, a PA-28 with full fuel and a/c + pax appropriately kitted out per JAR-OPS 1.830 (so liferaft, immersion suits, flares, ELTs and the rest), is there any reason such a flight could not be conducted on a plain vanilla SEP(A) rating? Other posts I've read point out that Shetland tends to be windy - who'd have guessed?! - but a conservative range estimate on full tanks would give plenty of alternatives e.g. Orkney, Wick if needs be. Thanks in advance :ok:

[Capt Kremmen]

No particular reason why you shouldn't. You didn't say how many passengers. Careful check on weight and balance.

[chevvron]

When I was at Sumburgh back in '72, we had several visitors from Bergen in light aircraft, mostly twins but I can remember one single and that was only over a 4 week period.
It can get windy; the manager told me once the wind speed recorder showed a reading of over 100kts, but if you plan on using Sumburgh as a div, they have an east-west runway and a NW-SE one.
I came back from lunch one day to find a scrap of paper on the control desk with '160/18' written on it. I asked the ATCO manager what it was and he told me it was the wind I was to give the BEA Viscount so he could legally take off!

[piperboy84]

I've always fancied doing either Shetland to Norway or even NE Aberdeenshire to Norway in a single but just haven't had the balls to do it yet . I looked at a route that would involve using oilrigs as waypoints and thinking (probably mistakenly)if something goes wrong I'm close to a rescue resource, then again judging by the drunken bastard rigpigs that drink in my local they would probably deem witnessing a ditching more as much needed form of entertainment than an actual emergency situation.

I recently done an approximately 100 mile across water flight and after the first 15 minutes of listening like hell for engine noise changes then when none happened forcing myself to imagine the engine hum was changing, you settle back and think "bugger it, what's the worst that can happen?"

Good luck with your flight.

[kui2324]

PB84

There may be some of us heading to Stavanger on the 23rd August.

Tryggve Gran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tryggve_Gran)

There was a Norwegian microlight who flew the flight on Wednesday 30th July 2014 to re-create the flight. There was a small piece on the local STV news that night about it!

[GusHoneybun]

I've done this trip many times in the past. Fortunately for me though, it was in a twin turbine. However, I still had the same issues you face.

Personally, I would choose to head to Sumburgh over Tingwall. Sumburgh has the luxury of two runways which reduces the exposure to crosswind limits. Plus a radar service so if the weather does take a turn for the worse, at least you have options. There is a nice(ish) hotel on the approach to 15.

Alternates are a bit sparse in that part of the world. At worst, plan for Fair Isle or North Ronaldsey. If you can, make KOI your primary diversion. Nearly every island in the Orkneys between LSI and KOI has a suitable strip if needed. Wick and Inverness maybe outside the range of a PA28.

The flight will take you over some of the most populated parts of the north sea. The shetland basin will have about 50 rigs on route, plus the Magnus field (iirc) in Norwegian water. Both these rigs can offer a radar service. Use it as if these guys are very good. Check on the rotor heads forum for more info.
The one thing about oil rigs is that since Piper Alpha, each rig has a dedicated rescue boat for rig workers. If you need to ditch, I would suggest do so as close to one of these as possible, preferably in front of the boat. They don't monitor 121.5 so if you have access to a marine radio, it might not be a bad idea to take it along and tuned to channel 16.

Calculate your Point of no Return before you depart and keep it updated. Unforecast winds and fuel are probably your biggest threat on this flight so keep updating your PNR.

Don't forget that you'll need to file a flight plan as you cross an FIR boundary.

[Tinstaafl]

Scatsta & Bressay are also quite useable if Sumburgh can't be used for some reason. I wouldn't recommend Out Skerries unless your short field skills & performance are sufficient - it's only 381m.

[India Four Two]

judging by the drunken bastard rigpigs that drink in my local they would probably deem witnessing a ditching more as much needed form of entertainment than an actual emergency situation.
pb84, I think you're being a little unfair to my offshore industry colleagues, who, when at work, are for the most part extremely conscientious and safety-minded.

As GusHoneybun, points out, every production platform and drilling rig has a "standby vessel" whose mission is to police the exclusion zone around the platform/rig and provide firefighting and SAR capabilities if required.

[NorthSouth]

Seems to me your most important requirement would be an instrument qualification. Even if it's only an IMC or IRR or EIR (not usable in Norwegian airspace) it would at least give you the option of a higher transit altitude once in UK airspace, irrespective of cloudbase.
NS

[piperboy84]

Even if it's only an IMC or IRR or EIR (not usable in Norwegian airspace) it would at least give you the option of a higher transit altitude once in UK airspace, irrespective of cloudbase.

On that subject what is the ATC coverage and information services available for a Crudden to Bergen crossing at say 8000ft, if any?

[ChickenHouse]

First, no, there is no reason against it, other then having the balls to fly 200nm over water.

Tinkwall is really a nice place to go! The major concern I have is weather. At Tinkwall the stationed island hoppers call clear sky everything with clouds above 500ft - if they are able to see the nearby windmills, it is good to fly ... Fog and mist is almost always an issue there, so it would help, if you had at least some basic knowledge on IFR. When I was going there, I had NVFR and was current on CFVR, which helped keeping calmer. I was not confident to take the C172 Norway - Shetlands and decided to do the big detour France - UK - Scotland.

For trip planning that way I would advice to get the point of no return under current wind as a waypoint. It may happen that all alternates are foggy and unreachable, so you have to be sure at least one airfield is perfectly clear upon arrival. Also, be trained in crosswind landings - it happened to me twice that one runway at Sumburgh was closed. Otherwise your alternate is fly back. If you have 25 knots head the point is closer then you think.

[Romeo Tango]

I have done similar routes several times in my Robin. Be aware of all the helicopter activity. Familiarize yourself with the unusual Aberdeen based polar (in the geometric sense) system of position reporting, though the last time I was in those parts they were ok with lat/long or plain triangular reporting points.

[fireflybob]

First, no, there is no reason against it, other then having the balls to fly 200nm over water.

Max Conrad makes the record of 5000 mile non stop flight from Chicago to Rome (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXKhBEow7OA)

I recall Max Conrad said that on his long over water flights he blanked off the engine temps and pressure gauges as he said it wasn't worth worrying about them.

[Camargue]

I'd add parachutes for everyone as a safety feature - bailing has got to be better than ditching.

If you ditch in a fixed undercarriage, is the plane going stay up right?
No.

When you are upside down, having been thrown about a fair bit and sinking are you going to be able get out?
Maybe.

Are your passengers in the back?
No.

Its not madness to do 200nm over water in a single, but you and any passengers must be aware the chances of survival in the event of donk stop are pretty slim.

[Mariner9]

That would be a challenge getting pax and especially the pilot to bale out of a PA28. its hard enough getting out on the ground!

[Camargue]

That would be a challenge getting pax and especially the pilot to bale out of a PA28. its hard enough getting out on the ground!


Indeed, imagine doing it upside down, in a dark cabin full of water......!

[Romeo Tango]

I'd add parachutes for everyone as a safety feature - bailing has got to be better than ditching.

I assume that's a joke. Best thing is to arrange not to have to ditch. ie take a well maintained aircraft and remember to put enough fuel in it.

[achean]

I think your biggest assumption is VMC.

I was part of a formation making the crossing between Sumburgh and Bergen in mid July. The weather was atrocious - we were fogged in at Sumburgh for 7 or so hours. Sumburgh is not the most GA friendly airfield and I'd urge you to find an (any) alternative with fuel.

Apart from that, the approach into Bergen is utterly, utterly stunning. If you can guarantee good weather, go for it. Or take an IR rated pilot as P1.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Best thing is to arrange not to have to ditch

Yes of course. No need to carry a raft, lifevests, ELT and what not. BRILLIANT!

[piperboy84]

I was chatting with a retired BA captain at a fly-in a few years ago who regularly flies his single on water crossings, I asked him what was his preferred altitude. He said absolutely no more than 300 feet AMSL. His reasoning was that if the engine does quit he did not want to go through the mental trauma of the "who's and why's" or the " woulda shoulda coulda" of his entire life's path as he glides down from up high, he would rather just get straight in the drink and be done with it.

Maybe he was onto something there. Not much point spending your final moments on earth cursing the ex wife and the milkman.

[Russell Gulch]

I've done Bergen direct to Aberdeen in a 1940's vintage single, never venturing above 100 feet awl because it was a clear blue beuatiful horizon and I loved the sensation of flying low. Watch for the oil rigs! and the helicopters which are above you.

No AI, no Turn and slip, no autopilot. Just GPS and a compass & stopwatch. Check the forecast ahead for fog etc.

If the engine quits (which it wont if theres enough fuel and oil and you don't fiddle with anything) then hard cheese, but life is too short to worry about that kind of thing. One of my best flying expeiences.

Russ

p.s. I'm older & wiser now, so would not do it again, unless sutably persuaded.

[Romeo Tango]

One should not be so pessimistic about being surviving a ditching. With a dingy, ELT and immersion suit it's probably better than 50% even in the North Atlantic. Though I suppose there is also a 50% chance of a rather frigid death. Feeble not to try IMHO. As I have said before it's best to avoid ditching in the first place.

[BlackadderIA]

As someone mentioned it, why exactly don't we routinely carry parachutes in GA aircraft?
Having come from a gliding background before getting my PPL I've always wondered. There was an amazing picture of a glider pilot using his recently following a mid air, couldn't help thinking if that was a C172 he'd have just been sat in the seat watching the ground rush up instead.
I see plenty of examples in the accident reports were everyone is killed (IMC spiral dive into the ground for example) where they would have almost certainly all lived if they had 'hit the silk' once things had started to go wrong.
There's two parachutes at my club I'm the SE cupboard but imagine the funny looks I'd get if I wore one for a trip in the C152/72!

[GusHoneybun]

As someone mentioned it, why exactly don't we routinely carry parachutes in GA aircraft?

As mentioned above. Trying to open the door of your average spam can is almost impossible against the airflow. Gliders have the luxury of a quick release canopy. Bailing from a bulldog would be easy, but a PA28? Jump out the C152 and the first thing that'll happen is you will **** your head on the wing strut.

Gliders tend to flock together and the collision factor is a huge risk. Not such a risk on a gentle sunday PPL bimble. The parachute is a last resort if the glider becomes uncontrollable due to loss of control surface.

SEP cockpits are small enough at the best of times without introducing the added restriction of a large backpack on everyone back.

[Baikonour]

Is it not also an attitude thing?

I.e. gliding is (and is perceived to be) a sport - and for a sport, you wear proper equipment.

SEP flying is not seen as a sport but as a way (crazy as it sounds) of getting somewhere (even if it is a bimble), so you wear the same as you would if you were driving a car.

Cue the usual discussion regarding whether or not we should wear gloves, Nomex suits or the like...

Has any actual research/test been carried out w.r.t. exiting a spamcan? Apart from exiting, what about the empannage (or wing strut, indeed)? Are there any stats on 'injury/death could have been avoided by bailing'?
As an aside, without a functioning autopilot and controllable plane, between the pilot letting go of the controls and exiting the plane, the attitude is un likely to be conducive for a safe exit?

There are some stats quoted by an AVWeb article (http://www.avweb.com/news/safety/183010-1.html?redirected=1)on ditching - and they look substantially better than 50/50...

Baikonour

[Romeo Tango]

There is also the point that it is not very considerate to to abandon large lumps of metal to fall randomly on the general public.

[BlackadderIA]

Is it really that hard to open the door though? The door on our C152 is always popping open and I've never found it to be that hard to swing open and shut it properly again. Our ex boss used to open the doors on the C172 as a demo to get it to yaw without touching the rudders. Might be a bit harder plummeting earthward at 180kts mind.

I would say that certainly on the high wing 152 you could pop the door, grab the strut and bail out without too much bother if the IAS wasn't ridiculous.

Guys and gals on the ground are going to be enjoying a big lump of metal either way in any scenario were you had lost control, only difference is it will be 12 stone lighter as I'll be floating down rather than sat in it swearing :)

Good point about the space though, have worn chutes in a 152 during spin training and cosy doesn't even begin to describe it!

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Back on topic a bit......


I used to be based at both Sumburgh and Bergen and have done the trip in a PA28 4 times, a 172 8 times and a 182 7 times. The weather can be a serious challenge, plan to get stuck at either end for a few days, unless you are very happy in rough IMC, and for the Shetlands/Orkneys take some good tie downs. Other than that good quality survival kit in the aircraft, I once had an unintentional swim after an aircraft went wrong 150nm North east of Aberdeen, it was shatteringly cold, even in the specialist kit we wore as off-shore helicopter crew, and it truly was a fight for survival.


The aircraft has no idea it is over water, so doesn't care, I base that premise on the fact that I spent a year when flying jobs were scarce ferrying singles across the Atlantic from the US to Africa (Admittedly they were C208s with nice smooth turbines) but still singles.


Bergen is my favourite city in the world and the Shetlands have a huge hold on me, both beautiful at any time, but mid-summer, high pressure they become perfect.


SND