RAF to Import Ebola

[Jollygreengiant64]

Ebola outbreak: Royal Air Force 'on standby' to bring back infected Brits - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11000406/Ebola-outbreak-Royal-Air-Force-on-standby-to-bring-back-infected-Brits.html)

I should add that this isn't actually happening now, but is a contingency.

As an Island nation, arguably the best placed of all island nations, we stand a fair chance of coming through a Pandemic relatively unscathed, if we act swiftly and firmly. Now, I'm not particularly panicky about this, or any other recent epidemic but I am well aware that with any virus there is no real problem, until there is a big f******* problem, There isn't really any intermediary stage.

So why would we import something described by Cameron as a 'serious threat', when these walking (shambling, lolloping, dissolving...) dead only have a few days left to live anyway?

If you work in Africa for, no doubt, big bucks you need to accept the risk that that money is paid for. Health workers are the same; you know the risks, and as noble as your cause might be, you are playing with fire in those parts.

With these spineless politicians in charge, no doubt some of you WILL be given the happy task of bringing these mushies back home. I wonder how you chaps feel about the prospect?

I hope this doesn't qualify as a rant.

[fantom]

That 'built for purpose' Gulfstream the Yanks have is great but what have we got?

[Pontius Navigator]

C17? ?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

BBC News - Growing concerns over 'in the air' transmission of Ebola (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-20341423)

Latest indication is that Ebola may be capable of short-range airborne transmission.

I'm with the OP - imported known infected patients is bonkers.

[Cheeks]

Isn't this is one of TMW's core roles?

Ebola has a 50-90% mortality, this outbreak is currently looking to be around 60%. Nobody's really sure whether that will change with proper
Level 3 care, but I understand there are two pilot projects underway in Atlanta.

So, err, the mushies aren't actually as dead as you think and the people who'll be repatriating them, already know who they are.

There's a solid plan to contain small to medium sized outbreak within the UK, involving the ambulance service HART teams & the Royal Free and Royal Victoria Infirmary. The real threat to the UKs health service will be panic stirred up by dribbling mouth breathers who don't understand what they're worried about.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

So what is needed is an air-transportable Level 3 care unit, not bringing the infected into densely populated industrialised societies.

[Courtney Mil]

Time for you guys in the UK to pull up the drawbridge.

[highflyer40]

how pathetic you all are.. if it was your wife,brother,sister,husband..etc you would be screaming bloody murder if the government refused them the best help possible. that happens to be here. current outbreak mortality is running around 60% in a sh@t hole with appalling health care. give proper care and here in the UK and you would list likely be looking at 40-50%. so more likely than not your loved one would survive.

[highflyer40]

it's think of how many cases are reported in some of the most densely populated cities on Africa with absolutely no sanitation or hygiene, and yet there are still so few cases, this is a very hard bug to transmit, and very easy to contain in an advanced western society.

[Courtney Mil]

Pathetic? What about the risk to everyone else's wife/brother/sister/husband? Save one and risk infecting how many more? The other point is that no one knows how many cases there are - some out of reach of healthcare, some incubating for 3 weeks.

But it's OK. It will find its own way there through normal air travel. Perhaps it has already and you just don't know it yet.

There was nothing unusual-looking about the passenger arriving at Heathrow from Lagos.

He was carrying one of the most deadly diseases known to mankind, but it wasn’t noticed by overstretched Nigerian airport officials before departure, nor by attendants on the flight, despite their special training to watch out for feverish passengers.

Because Ebola is a disease that has an incubation period of between two and 21 days, it’s more than likely that the final line of defence — immigration staff at Heathrow — failed to notice anything untoward about him either.

It wasn’t as if he was so unsteady or unwell that he couldn’t answer basic questions.
And so he was waved through.

Little did anyone realise that his initial flu-like symptoms — fever, headache, achy limbs, sore throat — would soon become something much, much worse.

Ebola, a disease which is fatal in 90 per cent of cases and for which there is no vaccine and no known cure, was now in Britain for the first time.

It would soon be spreading across the country, killing almost everyone it touched.

Fortunately this is an imaginary situation, but an Ebola epidemic is the nightmare scenario which inspires Hollywood disaster movie writers and keeps public health officials awake at night.

From the Daily Mail.

[Jollygreengiant64]

Yes, highflyer, I would be screaming bloody murder if it was myself, or my family members in that situation. And I would hope the general consensus of the rest of the population would be enough to keep the government from pulling something so stupid. The emotional side of people will look for the humanity in these things, but the rational side of things needs to triumph. Why endanger 70 odd million lives, just to save 20 or so semi-deadites that wanted to work in THAT part of the world.

Tropical disease isn't something new, people know about them, if they don't then they shouldn't be going away to anywhere more exotic than Bradford. Going away to these places has its risks. People need to stand by that.

[glad rag]

it's think of how many cases are reported in some of the most densely populated cities on Africa with absolutely no sanitation or hygiene, and yet there are still so few cases, this is a very hard bug to transmit, and very easy to contain in an advanced western society.

When was the last time you had the misfortune to visit London?

[Jollygreengiant64]

I should add that, this thing can take up to 21 days to fully manifest itself with visible symptoms. That means there is massive potential to be infected without anyone noticing, whilst still spreading it. Just because it can only 'officially' be transmitted by bodily fluids does not mean you need to stick your tongue down their throat to contract it. The correct procedure to nip this in the bud early would be to test everyone entering the country from anywhere. Of course that is impractical, and that is the reason that one day we will be caught with our trousers down.

[500N]

I disagree with high flyer.

Yes, my parents / brother might want the best possible care but I would
hope that I wouldn't put at risk a whole heap of others to do it.

I will admit that my parents know I do dangerous things and might
well get ill, whacked, killed doing them since I told them so.

But bring something like Ebola into the UK on the off chance of saving
myself considering I put myself in a position to get it in the first place ?

No thanks.


Air to air infection. I think it's a fair distance that droplets of spit go when
you open your mouth and talk. Why risk it ?

[mad_jock]

Makes a change from herpies, knob rot and of course crabs.

[highflyer40]

you people really need to examine the facts. this current outbreak has being running since FEBUARY, in cities with millions of people who live in squalid conditions with basic hygiene and sanitation facilities an still there has only been around 1400 reported cases with around 700 deaths. your right it has a mortality rate of 90% (but that is if just left to your own devices) there is no cure but with proper care and treatment chances of survival are higher. with the basic healthcare over there they have managed to reduce this mortality to 60% and with proper western medicines and treatment this could most likely be reduced to 40-50%. in the early infectious stage your chances of catching this are equivelent to catching HIV, obviously once hemorrhagic bleeding sets in this would increase, but in the west by then you would be in proper quarantine.

[Courtney Mil]

I refer you back to my post #10. We don't know how many actual cases there are.

[highflyer40]

just think about it for a second. 1400 cases in 6 months. those people during that 21 days would have been walking past, dining with, sharing transport, working with..,etc literally thousands of people per day. think logically it is not very easily transmitted. the majority of those infected would have got it during the late and final stages when it was very apparent ( bleeding from every oriface ).

[highflyer40]

Courtney-

if this epidemic had started 3 weeks ago I would agree with you. it didn't it started 6 months ago, making the 21 day incubation period irrelevant.

Sure the actual cases probably aren't pinpoint accurate but they will be within 10% or so. there will be some out in the country that went unreported, but in the last few months there hasn't really been any more reported cases in the remote areas, it is more in the urban areas now. no hiding a dissolving body

[woptb]

Ignorance & fear,a dangerous mix.

The medical director of Public Health England said it was "unlikely but not impossible" that travellers infected in West Africa could develop symptoms on their return. According to Dr Ben Neuman, a virologist at Reading University, the chance of the virus spreading in the UK was "very, very small".

He said the virus itself is "delicate and inefficient - you have to pick it up from bodily fluids". But he said it was sensible to be prepared, given the situation in West Africa.


We've brought people home who are terribly ill.I remember at least one British medic, infected with Marburg, being brought home by Hercules to Lyneham & I'm sure there were others.

[NutLoose]

There is a precedent, we brought the first UK case of Aids back from the USA when it was an unknown disease and the poor girl was dying, no Airline would touch her so they sent a Ten, they had an incubator type set up on board with the crew in full NBC, she was offloaded over the far side of Brize, then the Ten went to Boscombe for a full decontam I think.

[Courtney Mil]

As long as people continue to become infected, the incubation period is always relevant. In fact, the greater the spread of the disease, the larger the number of pre-symptomatic sufferers there are likely to be.

[Jollygreengiant64]

In a country where a surgeon can leave a scalpel, scissors of clamps inside a patient, a country where a sizeable portion of NHS staff are barely speaking English or are young and reckless, is it so hard to believe that a mistake can be made by someone in the handling of infected bedsheets or such?

Let's not forget that viruses can mutate.

As I've said before, this might not be the one that gets us, but at some point you will say 'we've been here before, calm down, it's a non-story' and 90% of everyone dies.

Edit: Just because we CAN bring someone back, doesn't make it a good idea. That goes for the past as well as the now. If it really is such a 'serious threat', why don't we just send a big ol' C17 with a load of Hazmat gear, set up a base IN AFRICA with the qualified personnel and use that as an aid/ research station. The cynic in me says this obviously hasn't been thought of.

[NutLoose]

Edit: Just because we CAN bring someone back, doesn't make it a good idea. That goes for the past as well as the now. If it really is such a 'serious threat', why don't we just send a big ol' C17 with a load of Hazmat gear, set up a base IN AFRICA with the qualified personnel and use that as an aid/ research station. The cynic in me says this obviously hasn't been thought of.


That makes a lot of sense, though the risk is still there with aircraft coming back and forward to the UK.

[Jollygreengiant64]

Well, it doesn't need to even be near the hot zones. C17s or Hercules can land at regional airports/ dirt strips, going nowhere near the terminals, the materiel offloaded onto a remote section of the ramp. The locals could then load it onto trucks and have it brought forward. The aircraft could be gone before the locals even arrive.

Better yet, why not just use that airdrop capability that presumably all aircraft with tail ramps have?

Incidents like this make me wonder whether, if we still had an Empire, we would look after these Brits, and the locals of smaller countries better in-situ and not feel the need to bring them all back home. The British chiefs need to keep in mind that in order to help others you must help yourself first. A sick doctor ain't gonna help no-one.

[muppetofthenorth]

Think someone high up needs to read more Tom Clancy. Isn't this essentially half the plot to Executive Orders?

[Shackman]

The RAF does have mobile Isolator Units (basically airborne isolation sets) which have been used in the past to bring VSI and possibly highly infectious patients back to UK. The kit had even passed a USAF decompression test.

At least it did, together with a highly trained team - at Lyneham. Wonder where it is now!

[NickPilot]

A lot of the public's perception of Ebola traces back to Richard Preston's early 1990s book "The Hot Zone". While a good read, Mr Preston hyper-senstationalized some aspects of the disease. That sold a lot of books for him, and consequently a lot of what people think they 'know' about it comes from that source. This includes the media. The fact is people don't 'dissolve' or 'liquefy' from Ebola. Yes it's an incredibly nasty virus but it's not the source of a coming zombie apocalypse that some people assume.

Like any deadly disease it is spread at least partly through fear and ignorance. If this outbreak continues as it has so far then there is a fairly decent chance that at some point it will pop up in a western country thanks the miracle of air travel. The media will have a field day filling the airwaves with panic. The people who make money from panic will have a field day, but it won't be the end of the world. And if and when it does pop up in Britain, how many who now advocate leaving UK patients in Africa instead of risking bringing them home will take the next logical step and advocate sealing then in their homes to stop the spread in a hospital setting?

Yes, its a horrible disease, but reading some actual scientific literature instead of the sensationalized pop culture version will reveal that it really is not a very robust virus outside a warm body, and it's not that easily spread in a setting where the most basic sanitary procedures are in place. And as another poster pointed out, even in the basic conditions in place in Africa the mortality rate with supportive care has dropped to around 60%. With top notch western care that level will very likely drop below 50%. The media here in the US are making a big issue of this being the first time Ebola has been treated in the USA, however it has been treated in the UK before. A researcher at Porton Down had a needle stick in the late 80s and came down with it. After what we can only assume was a very unpleasant few weeks, he recovered fully.

[air pig]

Shackman.

The RAF does have mobile Isolator Units (basically airborne isolation sets) which have been used in the past to bring VSI and possibly highly infectious patients back to UK. The kit had even passed a USAF decompression test.

At least it did, together with a highly trained team - at Lyneham. Wonder where it is now!

Now with TMW at Brize, called the Infection Control and Prevention Team. Last used to move a patient with Corona virus from Edinburgh to London last year.

[ninja-lewis]

Shackman.

Now with TMW at Brize, called the Infection Control and Prevention Team. Last used to move a patient with Corona virus from Edinburgh to London last year. PMRAFNS - Air Transport Isolator (http://www.raf.mod.uk/PMRAFNS/organisation/airtransportisolator.cfm)

[Dengue_Dude]

Sounds like Ebola is the ultimate illegal immigrant . . .

The other ones are bad enough, this would potentially escalate beyond belief.

[Davef68]

how pathetic you all are.. if it was your wife,brother,sister,husband..etc you would be screaming bloody murder if the government refused them the best help possible.


Nope, I'm fed up with ex-pats screaming for HMG help the minute something goes tits up in their tropical retirement idyl/tax haven/ Slightly more sympathy for holidymakers, but not to the extent of replacing the local Police that we see in Portugal at the moment.

[air pig]

Nope, I'm fed up with ex-pats screaming for HMG help the minute something goes tits up in their tropical retirement idyl/tax haven/ Slightly more sympathy for holidymakers, but not to the extent of replacing the local Police that we see in Portugal at the moment.
2nd Aug 2014 19:35

Holidaymakers usually from the UK trip themselves up by relying on EHIC to deal with everything, which it doesn't. It only covers you for care at the level a local person would enjoy, no flight home in an air ambulance or the use of a stretcher on a civil commercial flight. A potential intensive care transfer from such as Tenerife or Greece will cost at least £22,000. Your medical costs are your own responsibility not HMGs unless you are entitled by employment or as in the case of things like haemorrhagic fever the RAF will bring you home and I suspect bill the insurance company in the case of non entitled.

[The Helpful Stacker]

......where a sizeable portion of NHS staff are barely speaking English or are young and reckless, is it so hard to believe that a mistake can be made by someone in the handling of infected bedsheets or such?

What an complete load of Daily Mail-esque tosh. And your professional knowledge of this area would be?

I work in one of the largest hospital trusts in the country in what is arguably one of the most ethnically diverse cities (Leicester) and don't recognise anything like "a sizeable portion of NHS staff are barely speaking English".

And who are these "young and reckless" staff you speak of? I know very few who'd anywhere approach being 'reckless',although many are young. The staff who work on IDU are consummate professionals (even the younger ones) and deal with a range of infectious diseases day in, day out.

[air pig]

THS, totally agree, professionalism of a high order required, you don't need the staff becoming ill through sloppy procedures and practices.

[Shackman]

Air pig and ninja-lewis.

Thank you for that information which I shall pass on to my neighbour - her husband developed the isolator but unfortunately was caught by the Big C a while back.

[Danny42C]

"The Roses of Eyam" (Google) may be of interest.

D.

[Jollygreengiant64]

Stacker, I'll confess to picking weak references to prove the point of the potential for mistakes to be made. Perhaps I should have instead commented on the increasing, and blurry to an outsider, commercialisation of the NHS.

In my limited interactions with the staff of the local hospital stroke unit, I can say that whilst the Doctors spoke fluent English, the nurses and ancillary staff spoke a level of English enough to merely irritate. These aren't the staff you would expect to be the first picks of the world's most significant healthcare system. For as good as these nurses/ healthcare givers (or whatever the Job-title of the week is) are, I don't trust that there can't be a significant misunderstanding between the multi-lingual soup that is the NHS' cheap side. I'm thinking along the lines of a game of Chinese whispers: 'Take these sheets to the incinerator' turns into 'Give them a quick rinse and whack 'em back in the linen cupboard'.

I speak of 'young and reckless' mainly from remembering a recent news story in which a porter of said description was caught posting photos, on Facebook, of himself dressed in a sick/deceased elderly lady's underwear. I have no illusions that to even become a nurse requires much dedication, willpower and perhaps, finance; obviously nobody with that much emotional investment in a career would be likely to make a mistake that serious, but what concerns me are the back-room types that handle infected materials for disposal etc. As an outsider, knowing that the NHS, as with most things, is being outsourced, the likely areas in my mind for contracting out are those exact support roles. Lowest bidder staff fill those jobs. Maybe some of them do take it seriously. A whole lot more of them will be waiting for their shift to end to get out on the lash. For someone like that it's just a job; low paid, monotonous, 9-5. That sort of job will make people complacent. They will get bored, and they will make mistakes.

Contractorisation is just another way of cheapening the end product, providing less quality and less versatility for less cost.

I have no insight into the containment of the infected in a hospital situation, nor to the disposal of the contaminated materials. But I would bet that at some point in the chain those sheets will be handed over to the cheap, bored staff of Ebolacleaners4S and that increases the risk of transmission.

I am a cynic of most things. Someone has to disagree for the sake of argument. One day I will be right:ok:.

[chopper2004]

At some point I wonder if the USAMRIID or CDC will be sent out there (please do not judge me as I have Outbreak and The Cassandra Crossing on iTunes - great rotary wing action :) ) as Jolly suggested - have a forward deployed mobile lab makes sense.

I watched a documentary on ITV around 10 years back relating to the incident in Virginia and the unseen footage of USAMRIID personnel suiting up in biohazard BL4 suits. Initially not to create a panic, the officers and enlisted personnel were instructed to wear civvy clothes / PT gear (depicted in reconstruction) walk calmly to their own vehicles at Ft Detrick (?) and drive to the lab. IIRC, the primates were killed, blood drained and bodies incinerated.

Also reading in New Scientist mag in late 90s, there was an article about dealing with diseases and compared USAMRIID, CDC with the Old Portonions CAMR The ethos over here was keep said pretty much IIRC, keep the bugs from the personnel to research and study, whereas over at USAMRIID and CDC, everyone suits up to the brim as the environment they work in is very much lethal.

Cheers

[woptb]

I have no insight into the containment of the infected in a hospital situation, nor to the disposal of the contaminated materials.


Irony is dead,long live irony :}

[rjtjrt]

This Ebola outbreak will almost certainly be controlled with few cases escaping Africa, and the developed world now it has mobilised well able to isolate and contain any cases on their soil.
The more important message is the relentless march of severe infectious threats to threaten and possibly eventually almost overwhelm the human global population.
The lethal world pandemic is coming almost inevitably, just not yet.

[air pig]

Chopper 2004,

I watched a documentary on ITV around 10 years back relating to the incident in Virginia and the unseen footage of USAMRIID personnel suiting up in biohazard BL4 suits. Initially not to create a panic, the officers and enlisted personnel were instructed to wear civvy clothes / PT gear (depicted in reconstruction) walk calmly to their own vehicles at Ft Detrick (?) and drive to the lab. IIRC, the primates were killed, blood drained and bodies incinerated.


This outbreak was the basis of the book 'The Hot Zone' by Robert Preston. The disease was in an animal house full of primates in Reston Virginia and was Simeon Haemorrhagic Fever, very similar to Ebola but cannot yet jump the species barrier. The team was indeed from USAMRID at Fort Detrick.

[Courtney Mil]

That's "Simian" as in higher primates. Simians are not a single species, so it does cross the species barrier. I believe it as never been recorded in humans, so if that was what you meant, your most important point there is sound.

[air pig]

CM, my spelling error, Simian DNA is 98% the same as human so therefore unless you undertake some bio-engeering, you may find the species jump impossible, where as simians have I think the same DNA so therefore cross infection is possible, look at cats all very different breeds and species but may all develop FIV.

That 2% maybe very important.

[Courtney Mil]

I agree, air pig. Things will change - who knows which way?

[Exascot]

And guess which continent one is jetting off to in one hour :eek:

[Basil]

Ref medical reliability and professionalism, over past years I've seen:

1. A blast injury mistreated by a hospital doctor to the point where a sinus formed.
2. An audiogram performed incorrectly by a nurse. I intervened and the test then progressed satisfactorily.
3. A loud altercation with a paramedic because I had the temerity to drive a patient who could barely walk right up to the A&E entrance. Same case; hospital gown thrown at patient who was told to undress and wear it and was then mocked for donning it the wrong way round.

A bit of airline style training, checking and CRM would not go amiss.

[NickPilot]

Air Pig-The outbreak in the primate facility in Reston acutally WASA Ebola, not SHF. It was a new strain which is now known as Ebola Reston (guess why). It did infect several workers at the facility but in humans is presents mild symptoms similar to a case of the flu. The same disease appeared in a primate facility in Texas a few years later and was traced to the Phillipines IIRC.

It was a massive stroke of luck that this strain is very mild in humans, though obviously nothing to guarantee it couldn't mutate into something more dangerous. There was also evidence in that outbreak of limited airborne transmission, which caused some great concern for obvious reasons.

[air pig]

NP, have not read the book,for many year but I do now remember the airborne transmission and human infection. The original index case was in '75 as Enola Myinga (sp) which has mutated slightly, indeed we are fortunate at the moment but things could change.

Hissing handbags anybody:sad:

[Basil]

It has been said that this is a very fragile virus. The same is said of HIV.

[Cheeks]

It has been said that this is a very fragile virus. The same is said of HIV.And that's why very few people worry about catching HIV.

[Wensleydale]

"And that's why very few people worry about catching HIV".


I even heard the story of a WRAF who had sex in the back of a 3 tonner and was diagnosed HGV positive.

[The Nip]

Only one ?

[Courtney Mil]

Hey, I love the fact that we've all turned into expert virologists. We are so smart.

[Surplus]

I would have thought that the doctor who tragically died and the American doctor and nurse currently on their way back to the States after contracting the disease, were expert virologists. Tragically, it didn't help them.

[strake]

Are we all mad? As with the fearsome Bird flu epidemic which razed the UK in the mid-2000's, instead of talking, we should be stocking up on Tamifluette - or something...
SARS, H5N1, H3N8, H2N2, H2O2 and all the other killer H-thing virus bugs, they're all out there you know, ready to leap up our noses and turn us to mush-like jelly beings.
For the love of God, do something now..inject and protect - wear a face mask, shop 'till you drop, lock your doors, sit in a chair with a shotgun.
I blame the government..and religious people for not praying hard enough.

[West Coast]

Hey, I love the fact that we've all turned into expert virologists. We are so smart.

You should check out all the missile fusing experts on the MH thread. Google intelligentsia at its best. It's the ones that come across as instant experts that make me wonder.

I guess saying "I don't know" is sooo 1970s.

[chopper2004]

Priest Miguel Parajes becomes first Ebola victim brought to Europe for treatment | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2718716/Missionary-struck-Ebola-person-brought-Europe-treatment-African-countries-declare-national-emergency.html)

(images courtesy of DM)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/1407408877357_wps_1_epa04343045_A_handout_pic_zps878ecc02.jp g

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/1407405237206_wps_20_epa04343044_A_handout_pic_zps2eeb9ac5.j pg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/article-2718716-2055970A00000578-943_634x429_zps6bd0623c.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/article-2718716-2055940400000578-672_634x423_zps697d4507.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/1407404904300_wps_18_An_ambulance_transporting_zps46e298f0.j pg


Think in the vid, the aircrew were putting large plastic bags of stuff under escort from the men in white, into bins (prob for incineration)

Cheers

[Bigpants]

I don't think that repatriation of a known victim is the main worry here.

We should be concerned that some mate with dual US citizenship got as far as Lagos Airport before dying. There will be others who when they realise they are ill may try and seek better treatment in Europe, the US or Asia.

Health tourism might take on a whole new slant in the uk if someone slips through the net and turns up at a busy A and E department and sits waiting for a few hours.

[nonsense]

Hey, I love the fact that we've all turned into expert virologists. We are so smart.

Has a major advance in air safety or an impromptu analysis of an air crash which subsequently proved to be "on the money" ever emerged from an online forum of virologists?

Obviously virologists aren't as smart as pilots...

[Surplus]

Stand the RAF down, looks like it's got here on it's own.

BBC News - Ebola outbreak: Suspected case in County Donegal (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-28886663)

[chopper2004]

Hmm "
"Until a diagnosis is confirmed, and as a precautionary measure, the individual's remains will stay in the mortuary pending the laboratory results which are expected late (on Friday)."
The post-mortem room at the hospital will remain sealed-off for up to 18 hours."


I would have thought the whole mortuary be sealed off ....and the staff themselves from the A & E doctor, the porters to the path techs and prob pathologist be quarantined?



Also the HSE will have asked that all passengers traveling on the same flight as him to be quarantined?



This reminds me of the 1990 medical thriller Pestilence by Ken McClure -in the opening chapter - whereby our hero, the duty doctor - spies the gents in the black van , pulling outside the hospital mortuary (supposedly shut by his boss cos of fridge problems :mad: ) in the dead of night, don protective suits and masks and enters said building taking out the corpse ina box wrapped in plastic. He confronts them, gets whacked on the head and they are kind enough not to let him freeze outside and place him on autopsy table. He wakes up to smell Ammonia and Formaldehyde. The smell comes from the area where the reefers are and the doors that separate the autopsy lab and the reefers are bolted shut. Problem is its all a cover up by the boss over a plague victim and leads to disaster as there is a plague breakout in this northern town (after an attempted murder on hero doctor by the alcoholic pathologist blackmailed into covering up the plague victims deaths by writing false autopsy reports on now cremated plague bodies, digging up of empty grave, confrontation and accidental shooting of the boss )

Actually back to my previous post with the Spanish Air Force bringing back the priest and his nun, would not the aircrew be held in quarantine for a day or so post flight?

Cheers

[Typhoon93]

Bringing back infected patients in a C-17 is ridiculous, especially since the boys are on the warm down from theatre and they're bringing equipment back, with the possibility of going back in to theatre again in Iraq......

[Surplus]

BBC News - Ebola reports: Dessie Quinn did not have Ebola say health authorities (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28893892)

Apparently, he was being treated for malaria prior to his death, something the journos neglected to inform us in the initial story.

Actually back to my previous post with the Spanish Air Force bringing back the priest and his nun, would not the aircrew be held in quarantine for a day or so post flight?

Should that not be 21 days in quarantine, if it can take 21 days for any symptoms to occur, or is that just 'not workable' and therefore not required?

[Surplus]

BBC News - British Ebola patient arrives in UK for hospital treatment (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28919831)

Health officials insist the risk to the UK from Ebola remains "very low"

Let's hope they're right and they're not the same health officials who advised John Selwyn Gummer.

[newt]

Which lunatic sanctioned a C17 to retrieve one patient from an Ebola infected country and bring the disease to the UK?

They must be bonkers! Not only a complete waste of public money but should there be some form of accident and others get infected then it could be a disaster!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Trim Stab]

I'm appalled by some of the attitudes displayed by posters on this thread. If I was still serving in the military, I would be proud to be providing humanitarian assistance to fellow Brits who have fallen ill.

May I ask what you would do if (say) one of the several British military personnel serving in Nigeria currently were to fall ill? Would you just let them die in some filthy Nigerian clinic?

As has been demonstrated by the US evacuations, the disease is containable and manageable if the correct resources are used. We have the resources, so lets use them.

[newt]

So you would risk the whole population for one person?

No chance of him being sent the bill then!:}

[Megaton]

So you would risk the whole population for one person?

Quote worthy of the Daily Mail's readership. Hysterical, ill-informed and scare-mongering. The gentleman in question volunteered for humanitarian work and as a British citizen we should applaud his actions rather than condemn him.

[mad_jock]

I suspect he is getting brought back as a lab rat.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Quote worthy of the Daily Mail's readership. Hysterical, ill-informed and scare-mongering.

Indeed.

Nice to see a few on here have so much faith in both the abilities of my RAF colleagues to transport this unfortunate nurse back to the UK safely (using equipment and procedures that are routinely used to transfer patients with far more virulent diseases and viruses) as well the abilities of my NHS colleagues to contain, and more important, treat the patient in the UK. I can only assume the individuals with such strong views with regards this situation are learned chaps with many years experience in the healthcare sector, and perhaps further specialist knowledge gained from working directly with infectious diseases?

No, thought not. Stick to talking about BBQs smuggled back from the states or whatnot and leave matters of healthcare to healthcare professionals. I'm sure some of the most vocal on this thread are first to pour scorn on 'non-professionals' making uneducated comments about 'their' area of expertise.

[Wrathmonk]

Tim Stab

I fully agree that such individuals should be evacuated to better care and I have full faith in the NHS to safely contain the disease. However, in a similar thread regarding evacuations of non-combatants you said (my bold):

These sort of evacuations are best left to civilian commercial operators, who quietly get the job done with no fuss - and charge the commercial companies (mostly from the very wealthy oil & gas sectors) who put their people into these positions appropriate commercial rates to exfiltrate them.

When the MOD reacts to tabloid pressure with their heroic PR-releases blazing that "brave troops are facing bullets to risk stranded British ex-patriots etc etc blah blah" this distorts the commercial reality of commercial competition in politically risky markets.

Responsible companies put in place stringent evacuation procedures for their personnel - and then execute them at considerable cost when necessary. They are then commercially penalised by the MOD that comes in and bravely "rescues" personnel from useless irresponsible outfits that should not be even operating in the region because they do not put in place evacuation procedures and rely on the FCO and MOD to get them out of trouble.

A further consequence is that the RAF ends up taking away work from commercial operators who want the evacuation work.

...

For the moment, all evacuations should be at the cost of the employer and their insurers, and should be paid to the AOC holders who are still prepared to operate into the region. That should only change when no AOC operators are prepared to go - which is not the case at the moment.

So.....simple question. Should this be a military task or a civilian task (I believe the two US cases were civilian aeromed) and should the individual be charged? I appreciate he was a volunteer (perhaps an individual believing he/she was doing the 'right thing') but either way he should have some form of medical insurance, shouldn't he/she?

This question links to the air sea search carried out earlier this year as well - where does 'military support' end and harsh 'commercial reality' start - is the bloke who goes on holiday to Ibiza, with the minimum of helath cover (i.e an EHIC) , entitled to military support to aeromed him home if he breaks a leg or an illness he contracts is not covered under the EHIC scheme?

And to answer your question - if it was military personnel infected then a C17 is the appropriate transport. The military are there working for HM Govt and, as you put it above, as the employer HM Govt bears the cost.

[newt]

"I can only assume the individuals with such strong views with regards this situation are learned chaps with many years experience in the healthcare sector, and perhaps further specialist knowledge gained from working directly with infectious diseases?"

As this is a military aviation forum I doubt it! But we can have an opinion about the use of military assets!

As for the healthcare sector being "professional" I sometimes have my doubts. The NHS is hardly free from total cockups!

[The Helpful Stacker]

As this is a military aviation forum I doubt it! But we can have an opinion about the use of military assets!

Which would be all well and good if the thrust of your argument were solely regarding 'misappropriation' of a military asset, but given an example of your comments;

Which lunatic sanctioned a C17 to retrieve one patient from an Ebola infected country and bring the disease to the UK?

They must be bonkers! Not only a complete waste of public money but should there be some form of accident and others get infected then it could be a disaster!

It appears that you're far more concerned with a potential failing in well-versed procedures causing a release of pathogen outside of the controlled environment. I would argue (based on this unlikely chain of events) that the type of aircraft (military or civilian) is immaterial with regards to your fears over potential 'release' and are thus very much moot.

As it is though, and I speak from experience as someone who has is trained on (as part of my RAuxAF duties) and has used the air portable isolation unit in anger, that the use of an RAF a/c is eminently sensible and the right thing to do as it is RAF a/c we train with and usually* operate with! Bizarrely your seeming inference that you believe a non-RAF a/c should have been used actually opens up the potential for a breach in the chain of custody due to issues that could arise due to unfamiliarity of equipment being used.


(* Always as far as I know)

As for you fears about the NHS care, any organisation it's size is going to have examples of poor practice but do you really think such a high-profile case as this is being left to the kind of managers that caused so many problems as Stafford General? If you truely do then I'm at a loss at what else to say to you.

[newt]

I do!

Good!:ok:

[chopper2004]

Anyone noticed none of the NHS nor aeromedical personnel at Northolt appear to be wearing protective gear unlike the EMT Paramedics in the states and the Spanish medics and Air Force ground crew.

[Courtney Mil]

I did notice that, Chopper, but I guess they are simply moving the isolation unit and have no contact with the patient nor any bodily fluids. If the person in the isolator had a bad cold, I would doubt there would be any risk of infection for those same handlers.

But then, I'm not a specialist so probably shouldn't speculate.

[air pig]

Quote:
As this is a military aviation forum I doubt it! But we can have an opinion about the use of military assets!
Which would be all well and good if the thrust of your argument were solely regarding 'misappropriation' of a military asset, but given an example of your comments;

Quote:
Which lunatic sanctioned a C17 to retrieve one patient from an Ebola infected country and bring the disease to the UK?

They must be bonkers! Not only a complete waste of public money but should there be some form of accident and others get infected then it could be a disaster!
It appears that you're far more concerned with a potential failing in well-versed procedures causing a release of pathogen outside of the controlled environment. I would argue (based on this unlikely chain of events) that the type of aircraft (military or civilian) is immaterial with regards to your fears over potential 'release' and are thus very much moot.

As it is though, and I speak from experience as someone who has is trained on (as part of my RAuxAF duties) and has used the air portable isolation unit in anger, that the use of an RAF a/c is eminently sensible and the right thing to do as it is RAF a/c we train with and usually* operate with! Bizarrely your seeming inference that you believe a non-RAF a/c should have been used actually opens up the potential for a breach in the chain of custody due to issues that could arise due to unfamiliarity of equipment being used.


(* Always as far as I know)

As for you fears about the NHS care, any organisation it's size is going to have examples of poor practice but do you really think such a high-profile case as this is being left to the kind of managers that caused so many problems as Stafford General? If you truely do then I'm at a loss at what else to say to you.
25th Aug 2014 10:25

HS: is totally correct, The RAF are the agency tasked by HMG to transport those with highly infectious diseases, in fact they moved a patient from Scotland to London not long ago with Corona Virus. Does the poster really think the staff want a dose of Ebola?


Chopper 2004.
Anyone noticed none of the NHS nor aeromedical personnel at Northolt appear to be wearing protective gear unlike the EMT Paramedics in the states and the Spanish medics and Air Force ground crew.

If had noticed from the TV, it was an RAF ambulance who undertook the transfer from Northolt to the Royal Free, No NHS crews involved. Never seen the A40 so empty going into London but a rolling road block works wonders, even during a normal 'blues and two's run from Northolt is not easy unless and we usually do have some very good ambulance crews who get us through the horrendous traffic problems. 'Tips hat at Met Police'

The two American patients were moved by Phoenix Air who have contracts with the DoD and CDC Atlanta to move highly infected patients. Instead of using a self contained bio-hazard isolator they dressed the patients in sealed bio-hazard suits, with hepa filters, instead of using a transport isolator. Think of supadupa noddy suit to stop the pathogens getting out rather than in, a system in reverse.

The patient is put into an isolator, sealed up and externally decontaminated, remember your 'noddy drills' and decontamination procedures, so the crews do not need to have bio-hazard suits. Admittedly the Spanish isolator did look somewhat 'flimsy'.

On a last point there is NO UK air ambulance company capable of moving such a patient and worldwide I can only think one, Phoenix Air who are capable, nobody else will have the capability or skills to undertake such a transfer with minimal risk.

Should this young man survive, he maybe able to donate plasma, which maybe rich in antibodies, which possibly could be donated to other patients.

[chopper2004]

AP,

Yep remember attempting to tie my 'fish boots', very well :eek:

Did notice the tent around the stretcher of the Spanish as you said looked a bit flimsy, and they only used their normal paramedic ambulances and not the specialized vehicle as by the London Ambulance Service.

Though in the RAF Officer recruitment brochures, in our college, back in the early 90s - the RAF medical one talked about handling infectious diseases showed a b/w picture of Aeromedical team in Mk5 respirators and plastic suits carrying a stretcher covered with tent onto a VC-10. As was not there a case of an RAF aeromeedvac a nurse with Ebola around that time? The photo in the Daily Express showed the exact same photo.

Cheers

[Wander00]

All looks a bit reminiscent of plastic sheet "NBC shelters" for Taceval in the 80s

[air pig]

Chopper 2004:

It was not an LAS ambulance but an RAF Medical Services ambulance, with Royal Air Force writ large on the side. I suspect it had very little if any equipment inside to render decontamination easier and the crew were in a separate cab from the transfer team.

The original Trexlor isolators were quite 'flimsy', but the present day one look quite substantial.

[NutLoose]

Congratulations to all concerned in bringing this guy back home, I realise there is a lot of debate as to whether a C17 is of suitable size, but one can probably understand the choice as it seems to be the primary medivac aircraft used from Afghanistan.

My only query is who decided to build the Countries sole high level isolation department in the middle of the Countries largest metropolis, that just seems daft.

[air pig]

Nutloose:

My only query is who decided to build the Countries sole high level isolation department in the middle of the Countries largest metropolis, that just seems daft.

One of the original high level units was at the old Coppets Wood hospital near Hendon.

The advantage of a C17, is a lot of internal space, and you don't need a high lifter to move the patient off the aircraft.

[chopper2004]

AP.

I beg your pardon as I had a cursory glance at the BBC webpage and did not look closely...tbh

Thought RAF ambulances were the old Bedford ones :) albeit with the now six wheeled which look a tad robust :)

Not like this beast (took at the American Air Day at IWM 2 years back) which they've had and similar types for the last few decades -

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/530167_10151769938801490_848899630_n_zpse263be24.jpg

Cheers

[Warmtoast]

Out of curiosity what's the hourly rate for a C17?

Back in the 1970's the MOD had / published the hourly rate for use of their aircraft by other government departments - the idea being that if an OGD such as the foreign office needed e.g. a C.130 to move a load of diplomatic freight overseas at short notice, the the RAF would do this with the FCO being billed accordingly.

Not so long ago "Air Miles" Margaret Beckett as Environment Secretary was rapped over the knuckles for using the Queen's Flight for ministerial business, £100,000 for 110 flights over three years (as reported in the press). In addition she was criticised for arranging the 32 Sqn aircraft to collect and drop her off at East Midlands airport (21-times!) incurring large landing fees each time, rather than her using Northolt where the aircraft were based.

So who's picking up the bill for the the C17 to and from Sierra Leone and how much has it cost?

[NutLoose]

Sorry, but I don't think the cost should come into this, similar to bringing home a wounded serviceman. We also do not know what it carried outbound, for all we know it could have been carrying medical supplies.

[Wrathmonk]

NutLoose

I don't think the cost should come into this

So where do you draw the line? At what point does an individual or company have to take responsibility for their own actions (or decisions) rather than expect MOD/HMG to come to the rescue (with the usual line of "that's what I pay my taxes for"). I appreciate it is not me, or my family, involved in this particular case but I wouldn't dream of going somewhere (be it work or holiday) without knowing the 'what ifs' are covered if the worst happens. It's called insurance. It's not difficult - even the FCO advice page (https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-insurance) talks about the costs of air ambulances etc, and the need to have sufficient cover, when travelling on holiday. And if the military are the only people who can carry out a complex aeromed such as this then it doesn't change the fact that somebody (either the individual(s) or companies) should foot the bill.

Yes it's harsh but the 'pot of money' is only so deep. The MOD needs to be robust - if you want our services then you need to pay for them. As a side note I heard on the radio earlier today that the Health Minister wants to introduce 'fines' for patients who attend A&E as a result of excessive/binge drinking.

[Trim Stab]

Wrathmonk I think that Ebola is a special case in that no civilian air ambulance services are suitably equipped to transport Ebola cases.

It is already very, very difficult for private civilian air ambulance companies to survive because of the capital cost of suitable aircraft and the paucity of their employment. Most "air ambulance" aircraft are little more than an ancient business jet with some seats removed and are completely unsuitable for transporting even a patient on a stretcher.

I do agree though that the RAF should bill for these humanitarian flights to the company or the company's insurance. I was very aggrieved in the early days of Op Ellamy when the RAF suddenly decided to fly to Libya and "rescue" stranded oil workers because the company I was flying for at the time was making a packet from doing the same work and suddenly we had the market cut from under us by the RAF who could do it for free publicity!

[air pig]

Trimstab:

Wrathmonk I think that Ebola is a special case in that no civilian air ambulance services are suitably equipped to transport Ebola cases.

It is already very, very difficult for private civilian air ambulance companies to survive because of the capital cost of suitable aircraft and the paucity of their employment. Most "air ambulance" aircraft are little more than an ancient business jet with some seats removed and are completely unsuitable for transporting even a patient on a stretcher.

What is your knowledge of the civilian air ambulance market, there is 3 in the UK, one who is just about to refurbish their aircraft. REGA in Europe are a fantastic organisation.

[Dengue_Dude]

So where do you draw the line? At what point does an individual or company have to take responsibility for their own actions (or decisions) rather than expect MOD/HMG to come to the rescue (with the usual line of "that's what I pay my taxes for"). I appreciate it is not me, or my family, involved in this particular case but I wouldn't dream of going somewhere (be it work or holiday) without knowing the 'what ifs' are covered if the worst happens. It's called insurance. It's not difficult - even the FCO advice page talks about the costs of air ambulances etc, and the need to have sufficient cover, when travelling on holiday. And if the military are the only people who can carry out a complex aeromed such as this then it doesn't change the fact that somebody (either the individual(s) or companies) should foot the bill.

Yes it's harsh but the 'pot of money' is only so deep. The MOD needs to be robust - if you want our services then you need to pay for them. As a side note I heard on the radio earlier today that the Health Minister wants to introduce 'fines' for patients who attend A&E as a result of excessive/binge drinking.

Get's my vote . . .

(and the A & E sanction, however implausible it would be to apply as it's subjective).

[VinRouge]

Funding would most likely come from the FCO or DFID budgets, so quit stressing about where the cash is coming from. The fact the international aid budget was the most probable source of funding should please the daily mail readers on here - the RAF gets a lot of coverage (rightly so) for doing a bally good job, plus it gets spent on our assets.





As for the Whys and the Wherefores, consider this, if said nurse was to hide their symptoms and come home on the next BA jet direct to heathrow, as I think many would do in the circumstances bearing in mind the sort of treatment you can expect in Sierra Leone, I ask you to bear a thought about the carnage that would be wrought for the 200+ passengers sharing the trip (most probably on the Abuja leg).
The offering of aeromed services (funded externally to MoD core) has more to do with containment as it does with PR.

[Trim Stab]

What is your knowledge of the civilian air ambulance market, there is 3 in the UK, one who is just about to refurbish their aircraft. REGA in Europe are a fantastic organisation.

There are no private sector air-ambulance organisations in Europe even remotely equipped to evacuate Ebola cases. The capital cost for such equipment is too high to justify the likely utilisation. This is an area way beyond the resources private sector supply and demand - the public sector has to step in, and given that we do not have dedicated publicly funded air ambulance services in Europe, that means that it falls to the military. However, as I have argued in this and previous threads, the military should bill the insurers of the casualty at a market-rate (not the cost of a C-17, but the cost of a normal air-ambulance), otherwise their intervention distorts the market.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Nice to see it has turned out well for Mr Pooley.

British Ebola patient Will Pooley feels 'wonderfully lucky' to be alive | Society | theguardian.com (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/03/british-ebola-patient-will-pooley-discharged-hospital)

[Surplus]

Sadly, the same cannot be said for the Spanish cases:

BBC News - Ebola outbreak: Spain investigates new case (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29516882)

European Commission spokesman Frederic Vincent said a letter had been sent to the Spanish health minister "to obtain some clarification" of how the nurse had contracted Ebola despite all the precautions taken.

"There is obviously a problem somewhere," he said.

[CoffmanStarter]

UK Troops prepare for Sierra Leone Ebola duty ...

Military personnel will deploy to Sierra Leone next week where they will join military engineers and planners who have been in country for almost a month, overseeing the construction of the medical facilities.

UK MOD Press Release : Troops Prepare (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/troops-prepare-for-sierra-leone-ebola-duty)

I hope the Minister is going to lead from the front and go with them ...

I sincerely hope our service personnel remain safe ...

[chopper2004]

Hope said nurse recovers toute de suite, though there have been steps as far as to legally take the family pet and have it put down.

Looking at their local news, the footage of the second Ebola patient was offloaded by an Airbus Group CN235 / 295. Though as Air Pig said on here earlier , the incubation tent around the gurney looked umm flimsy when I posted up news photos of the priest being offloaded from the A310...

Compared to our EBola patient who was in a more incubated gurney tent which meant that the paramedic crews and RAF med personnel did not need hazmat suits or surgical masks, goggles etc etc. Maybe popular opinion has queried the standards to which the basics of handling infectious diseases by the Spaniards..

Best of luck to the Army meds

Cheers

[air pig]

Indeed I sincerely hope the team from 22 field hospital return home safely, also UKIETR have been mobilised as I know one of the docs who is going.

Other hospitals in the UK have been put on alert. Royal Liverpool, (School of Tropical Medicine just out of the back door) Newcastle and Sheffield.

Ebola: NHS hospitals put on standby - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/ebola/11146375/David-Cameron-to-hold-emergency-meeting-over-Ebola.html)

Difficult problem, maybe they should have a field hospital on an airfield and then secure the perimeter, did it in Iraq and Afghanistan, used to do it with the old TB and fever hospitals.

[chopper2004]

http://www.ramstein.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123427484

Cheers

[Al R]

Will Pooley was lucky. If you can't take a joke, etc.

British doctors and soldiers will not be guaranteed return to UK if they contract Ebola - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/ebola/11155097/British-doctors-and-soldiers-will-not-be-guaranteed-return-to-UK-if-they-contract-Ebola.html)

[M609]

Wrathmonk I think that Ebola is a special case in that no civilian air ambulance services are suitably equipped to transport Ebola cases.

A French civilian company repatriated a Norwegian health worker in a Citation earlier this week. (Medecins Sans Frontieres arranged the flight for their worker)

[Shack37]

Will Pooley was lucky. If you can't take a joke, etc.
British doctors and soldiers will not be guaranteed return to UK
if they contract Ebola - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/ebola/11155097/British-doctors-and-soldiers-will-not-be-guaranteed-return-to-UK-if-they-contract-Ebola.html)


If evacuation/repatriation for treatment can be done for a volunteer why can it not be provided for those who have no choice, ie our servicemen and women? What exactly will their task be?

[air pig]

Armed forces personnel will be setting up treatment centres for local health staff who have Ebola, so that those who survive can go back to work. RFA/HMS Ocean is being sent offshore to provide a treatment facility for forces personnel. I suspect that is where the isolation facility will be and in full communication with UK medics at the Royal Free and RCDM Birmingham.

[Xercules]

There used to be a well-established payment mechanism for the use of RAF transport aircraft and I am sure it still exists. There were 3 rates ranging from a no loss cost (ie direct operating costs only - fuel, landing fees, hotac etc) to a full costs which included elements even for the original training costs of the crew. It depended who asked for the task in the first place and Treasury Rules. A commercial organisation would pay full costs which in the case of a Hercules used to be in the region of £7500 to £8000 per flying hour. This was 20 years ago so a. Memory is not necessarily accurate and b. The rates will have changed.

The only exception to this will be if Ebola type flights have been incorporated into core tasking when, presumably, the Health Service would probably pay a standing charge for the commitment and the RAF would then pay from its own resources from then on.

In the case four own troops now involved, the arrangement is really no different from any other situation. The headline, at least that on in the DT, was misleading. Military personnel will be treated in theatre initially. If those resources are sufficient and satisfactory nothing more need be said. Then if the condition requires greater effort than is available an aeromed would follow. It is what we have been doing for 40 years to my own knowledge in both individual and team cases.

Looking back at past posts, remember also that the RAF does not do this kind of thing of its own volition. COBRA meetings, as at present, will have decided if or when any aeromeds
Are provided either for others or will have agreed the decision process for our own. In the case of a one-off a SofS will have asked the SofS Defence to do the task. - in other words it is a political decision initially.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

RFA/HMS Ocean is being sent offshore to provide a treatment facility for forces personnel.

I think you will find that RFA ARGUS is tasked as the offshore hospital, for which she is well equipped. http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9789117.ece/alternates/w460/RFA-Argus-PA.jpg

She's in Falmouth storing. Perhaps all that NBCD equipping and training will pay dividends.

[air pig]

Apologies, i was wrong, never was much good at ship recognition.

[Bannock]

I must admit to having a bad feeling about this one.
If Doctors and nurses who are extremely well versed in Bio Hazard protocols and working in cutting edge Western Isolation facilities are being contaminated then.....

[Sandy Parts]

aha - but those doctors and nurses won't have spent a day every year taking part in the finest decontam exercise known to man - "blot, bang, rub"! I'm sure the MoD have provided a full and thorough threat specific training package and the best in cutting edge kit ready for this deployment? Stay safe and 'rubber up' would be my motto! :)

[Hangarshuffle]

Sending Argus and 3 Merlin. Hate to sound heartless, but our resources should focus entirely on protecting our own islands. I don't think these people should go. They will be needed here soon.
It's like the world is hypnotised into a paralysis in this crises, and simply cannot either react, or doesn't want to react - for commercial reasons.
Multinationals (oil and gas) are burying their heads in the sand in this W. African region about this issue. They and their hosts cannot afford to turn off the tap that is supplying offshore O and G workers that travel here on their rotations. People have to travel from and to Europe to keep the oil flowing into Nigeria, Angola and more. stop them coming and the oil industry collapses here in a matter of....days.

[caiman27]

Sending Argus and 3 Merlin. Hate to sound heartless, but our resources should focus entirely on protecting our own islands. I don't think these people should go. They will be needed here soon.
It's like the world is hypnotised into a paralysis in this crises, and simply cannot either react, or doesn't want to react - for commercial reasons.
Multinationals (oil and gas) are burying their heads in the sand in this W. African region about this issue. They and their hosts cannot afford to turn off the tap that is supplying offshore O and G workers that travel here on their rotations. People have to travel from and to Europe to keep the oil flowing into Nigeria, Angola and more. stop them coming and the oil industry collapses here in a matter of....days.

Woo tinfoil hats.

A geography lesson. Nigeria is six countries away from Ebola, Angola is several more.

A lesson about oil. None of the currently affected countries produce any.

The mining companies have policies in place that make infection a remote possibility only. No physical contact, no infection. As far as I am aware the mining companies are all using charters to Accra to avoid the "sitting next to" problem.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Isn't the old principle; take out the archer, not the arrow? If we can eradicate this at source, isn't it better than trying to kill it on our own Sceptred Isle?

If travel becomes limited in our new global economy, we could find ourselves buggered.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Hate to sound heartless, but our resources should focus entirely on protecting our own islands. I don't think these people should go. They will be needed here soon.

That's right. We should not attempt to help these poor countries and address the problem quickly, but should wait until it spreads right up to the English Channel. Then, you can stand shoulder to shoulder with Nigel et al and defend this green and pleasant land from an infernal non-British disease.

[air pig]

Bannock:

Civilian nurses except for very few and that's so infrequent do not encounter Level 4 bio-hazards at all.

[Hangarshuffle]

Caiman thanks for all the info there. We shall see how it develops then wont we..? I've seen one of the majors procedures already and I think its a work in progress, to be frank.
It crossed my mind this morning that Argus is simply going to West Africa not to help the locals but to help evacuate our expats, or screen them. To process all our people back home via an airhead, and weed out the infected off out of the way? Sounds callous and I was slow to grasp this but someone mentioned it but they may be right. I try not to give it too much thought but its coming to the top of the daily agenda.
Screening for air travellers in West Africa is, like many things in West Africa- chaotic, disjointed and ineffective. The virus could be quite capable of jumping entire continents, let alone a few coastal linked countries.

[Courtney Mil]

Just take a peek back at page one of this thread. Interesting how far we've come in such a short time. Surprising? I think not.

[Surplus]

Just take a peek back at page one of this thread. Interesting how far we've come in such a short time. Surprising? I think not.

Quite so, it seems like those with a healthy suspicion that the repatriation and treatment of infected people would lead to problems in containment. The research by the Canadian scientists proving it can be carried, for short distances, by airborne means, contradicted the earlier statements from the medical experts that it wasn't possible.

From the BBC:


In the United States, questions are being asked about why two nurses who treated an Ebola patient from Africa have themselves become infected.

Another Spanish healthcare worker, who came into contact with a nurse already infected, is being tested for the virus

An Air France passenger with a high fever, reportedly from Nigeria, is to be examined in hospital for Ebola symptoms after arriving in Madrid from Paris

A patient with "Ebola-like" symptoms is being monitored in the US state of Connecticut

Anybody still think the NHS could cope with an outbreak?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

If Doctors and nurses who are extremely well versed in Bio Hazard protocols and working in cutting edge Western Isolation facilities are being contaminated then....

erm....cutting edge? says who?

Canada: Saskatchewan Health Authority says "We're Ready". Nurses say "No We Aren't"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/nurses-not-prepared-for-ebola-sun-says-1.2800994

Alberta Health says "We're Ready". Nurses say "No We Aren't"

Ebola fears need to be addressed among Alberta nurses, says union - Canada - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...nion-1.2798869)

etc.

Sound familiar?

From my personal experience at a Canadian University. Hierarchy says "We are fully prepared for major evacuation" . My experience on the ground was that the procedures had never worked in practices (not even close), but they were written up as if they had as you were subject to disciplinary action if you said otherwise.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comme...leblowers.html
Both Integrity Commissioners appointed to protect whistleblowers under this Act have been problematic. The first, Christiane Ouimet, found zero cases of employer wrongdoing and zero cases of reprisal against employees in three years (and 1,700 cases), and then retired, disgraced by the damning findings of an investigation by the Auditor General. Her successor, Mario Dion, has done little better, exploiting weaknesses in the law to do as little as possible and to leave whistleblowers to their fate.


Silencing people who point out dangerous flaws works really well, right up to the point you meet reality, then it all goes horribly wrong very quickly.

see also http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/537093-ebola-spreading-42.html#post8701219

[chopper2004]

Just like in Tom Clancy's Executive Orders

Jihadi plans to weaponise Ebola intercepted by Spanish authorities (http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2014/10/31/jihadi-plans-to-weaponise-ebola-intercepted-by-spanish-authorities/)