More Medals/Bar!

[MPN11]

Please excuse the link to 'another website' ...

Medals Review final report - More Medals! | Army Rumour Service (http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/medals-review-final-report-more-medals.217072/)

In short Sir John Holmes recommended 4 new awards or changes to criteria for existing awards:

South Atlantic
The qualifying period for the award of the South Atlantic Medal without the Rosette will be extended from 12 July to 21 October 1982

Cyprus 1955-59
Those who participated in the suppression of acts of terrorism in Cyprus between 1 April 1955 and 24 December 1959 should qualify for the General Service Medal 1918 – 62 with clasp “CYPRUS” if they served for 90 days or more

Cyprus 1963-64
Those servicemen who served in Cyprus during the period 21 December 1963 to 26 March 1964 will be awarded the General Service Medal with clasp “CYPRUS 1963-64”.

Berlin Airlift
The General Service Medal 1918 - 62 with clasp “BERLIN AIRLIFT” should be awarded for at least one day’s service to all aircrew, RAF and civilian, who took part in the Berlin Airlift operation from 25 June 1948 to 6 October 1949 inclusive.


It also seems to suggest that the award of the LS&GC be 'harmonised' ... to include officers?

[HTB]

Good grief

What constitutes "good conduct" for an officer (for issue of the LS&GC award)? Not getting caught, imbibing only fruit juice at happy hour, actually reading GASOs and the FOB when signing...so much restraint required...so much high spirits to be missed (aka vandalism when applied to ORs):rolleyes:

Mister B

[MPN11]

An officer's Good Conduct is implicit, and Long Service isn't exactly meritorious. There's a world of difference between Terms of Service and expectations for officers/ORs. I still wouldn't mind having one, though ;)

[Basil]

LS&GC award - Hmm. Would eight years, one or two tea without tea or biscuits and banned from the bar for a week exclude one? Thought so :(

[MPN11]

@ Basil ... Get some in!! :sad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Service_and_Good_Conduct_Medal
Since 1947 RAF Officers could be awarded this medal if 12 or more of the 15 years of his or her service have been in the ranks and provided that the other requirements for the award of the medal have been met. An officer shall be eligible for the award of the Clasp if 22 or more of the 30 years of his or her service has been in the ranks and provided that the other requirements have again been met.[5]

Hmm ... Formal Letter from Phil Lag**on and Banned from the Bar. Damn! ;)

[Surplus]

South Atlantic
The qualifying period for the award of the South Atlantic Medal without the Rosette will be extended from 12 July to 21 October 1982

I'd be interested to know why this end date was selected.

[Melchett01]

I did hear a vicious rumour a few weeks ago that consideration was being given to re-instating the GSM. If correct, and the rumour wasn't actually relating to what's mentioned here, it would seem to make sense given the number of smaller ad hoc operations that might otherwise qualify for some sort of medallic recognition but fall short of a campaign medal.

Personally, I would welcome a slight relaxing of the rules and have always thought we have been somewhat parsimonious in our medals policy. I don't advocate ribbons for this and that, but if people are deploying on a named operation, then why not. I've always enjoyed seeing people in No 1s and 5s with ribbons / medals, it's a sort of visual representation of what they have done as an individual and what the Services have been up to, often out of sight of much of the population. And it often gives rise to some very interesting stories over a beer afterwards. Plus, I've always found the Govt's rules on 'double medalling' to be, shall we say, liberally interpreted when required; after all, you win a medal in the Olympics, why should you also get another medal for just doing your job and for which you have already been rewarded.

On the other hand, if I ended up qualifying for an LS&GC, well frankly, I think that would be the end of any credibility associated with it :ok:

[teeteringhead]

I'd be interested to know why this end date was selected. ... dare one suggest the detachment dates of a (now) VSO to ASI ....:hmm:

.... ooh you cynical b****h Teeters

[Surplus]

Teeters, think you may have hit the nail on the head, hope to meet him, I'll help him look for the rosette that has obviously fallen off.

[Sloppy Link]

I seem to recall the rationale behind Officers not receiving the LSGC is that those without would be conspicuous and foster disrespect from the ranks.

[Could be the last?]

On a similar vein, it is my understanding that all medals awarded to Commonwealth servicemen (and women) are authorised through a UK Govt dept and ultimately signed off by HM. So, it is with interest that UK serviceman are not recognised for a current det in the Mid East, where the Canadian counterparts are........... Are there any other anomalies that personnel are aware of where UK troops are not recognised v other Commonwealth troops?

[teeteringhead]

Are there any other anomalies that personnel are aware of where UK troops are not recognised v other Commonwealth troops? I'm sure TTN will know the complete answer, but ISTR that the "Vietnam" clasp to GSM 1962 was only awarded to Aussies and Kiwis.

Assuming - like most GSM clasps - its qualification was "geographical", then there must have been a small number of Brits - Embassy staff? - who theoretically qualified.

Over to you TTN :ok:

[Basil]

MPN11, Formal Letter AND Banned from the Bar :cool:

I am humbled ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

I think I am correct in saying that the 'South Vietnam' clasp to the 1962 GSM was only awarded to Australian troops, for 30 days qualifying service in the theatre between 24 May 62 and 29 May 64. Only 70 were awarded. Subsequent service was recognised by the award of the Vietnam Medal 1964, which was an Australian issue (bearing the Queen's head) , but was also awarded to New Zealand personnel. As well as embassy staff mentioned by teeteringhead I think it is generally believed that UK special forces operated in Vietnam at various times, but certainly none was given either of the aforementioned medals, probably for political reasons.

With regard to the new awards I am particularly interested in the new clasp 'Cyprus' to the 1962 GSM, which brings the total clasps awarded to this medal to 14. Also the 'Berlin Airlift' clasp to the earlier GSM is a very welcome, if somewhat belated award, particularly as the Americans recognised the operation with a separate medal at the time.

[The Oberon]

Just curious, but if one serves for 2 qualifying periods during the overall qualifying dates, does one get a bar or some other endorsement ?

[Two's in]

I seem to recall the rationale behind Officers not receiving the LSGC is that those without would be conspicuous and foster disrespect from the ranks.


The reverse logic applies to enlisted personnel of a certain age minus an LS&GC, you can usually rely on them to be near the bar fight if not actually start it at the Remembrance day curry lunch.

[MPN11]

I seem to recall the rationale behind Officers not receiving the LSGC is that those without would be conspicuous and foster disrespect from the ranks.

Just so. I waded through all the paperwork from different MoD departments/Services in the AFD (yes, I ran that sort of office) to brief ACAS, and that was indeed one of the major objections. There were others, as I noted upthread.

[Danny42C]

"Wot ? More bleedin' gongs to polish !"

(not quite the right attitude, but.....)

[Pontius Navigator]

. . .think it is generally believed that UK special forces operated in Vietnam at various times, but certainly none was given either of the aforementioned medals, probably for political reasons

Friend of mine did lots of Ops but got no medals 'cause they were n't :)

Then what about Brixmis? If anyone in Germany should've had a medal . . .

Surprised no one has suggested a QRA medal. Just think, Bomber Command, Fighter Command, RAFG, Strike Command clasps. :)

[Melchett01]

I had a look at the full report earlier, all 70 pages of it. Given the nature of the subject, I was rather surprised to read statements that went along the lines of 'this isn't a priority for people at the moment'.

So I had a closer look at who wrote and contributed to said report. Guess what? There appeared to be rather limited input from those at the coal face, for whom the issue of medallic recognition is most relevant. There was, however, an awful lot of input from politicians, career civil servants and VVVSOs who I would feel safe in arguing wouldn't know one end of a modern rifle from another. It does rather make one wonder :suspect:

[Tankertrashnav]

Just curious, but if one serves for 2 qualifying periods during the overall qualifying dates, does one get a bar or some other endorsement ?

No bar on the medal itself, but of course the total time served all counts toward qualification for the Accumulated Service Medal. The 2011 issue of this medal, which is almost identical to the earlier award other than an extra stripe on the ribbon, is now awarded after a total of 720 days accumulated service (previously 1080 days). A bar to the ACSM can be awarded for a further 720 days accumulated service!

PN - re the QRA medal - I trust your tongue is firmly in your cheek ;)

[Surplus]

MPN11 :D :D :D

[The Oberon]

Sorry TTN but my bad, I was thinking of the S.A.M. as I know of several people who, now that the period has been extended, carried out 2 full qualifying detachments on ASI.

[Mickj3]

I understood that as the Falklands war had its own medal, time done did not count towards the ACM.

[orgASMic]

Just curious, but if one serves for 2 qualifying periods during the overall qualifying dates, does one get a bar or some other endorsement ?


NATO medals, such as the one issued for the Former Yugoslavia, attract a brass numeral on the ribbon for multiple tours in the same qualifying period. The highest number I have seen on an FRY medal ribbon is an 8 (RLC - I think he was a driver).

[Sloppy Link]

Mick, you are quite correct. As a general rule, if a medal has been issued with a start and stop date (South Atlantic, Rhodesia (although that is a bit of a funny in itself), Gulf Medal (1990-91)), these do not count towards the award of the ACSM, neither do UN/NATO tours. In simple terms, qualifying periods are for any award of an OSM, Telic or GSM 1962 but there are only certain qualifying bars, from memory, anything pre 1969 doesn't count.

[TyroPicard]

Another review, and still no Cold War medal....

[Old-Duffer]

Sloppy Link,


Absolutely right.


The 'accumulated' bit only counts for clasps issued from 1969, so South Arabia - that's Aden for those old enough to remember - Borneo, Malay Peninsula don't qualify.


I seem to recall that the Accumulated Service Medal was lobbied for because of the many repeat visits to Northern Ireland that were not otherwise recognised. This second medal - and I have no bitch about it per se - drives a coach and horses through the argument that we only issue one medal for each campaign. Mind you, there were two for Korea and, if you got your timing right, you could have a pair for Brunei/Borneo. Again after lobbying, the Pingat Jasi Malaysia (PJM) was approved for 'unrestricted wear' three or four years ago and does add a real bit of colour.


As an aside, my wife's station commander (at a secret base in Rutland) always used to say that medals looked nice but they didn't pay the mortgage. Hamish Mahaddie, pathfinder extraordinary, tells that after an investiture at t'Buck House, his mates and he adjourned for some refreshment, when he was asked by a lady what his medals were (they started with a DSO and went downhill from there). He recounts that he looked her in the eye and said: 'Madam, I've no idea, they were on the uniform when I bought it'.


Old Duffer

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, Indeed.

Goes with the RAFG, NEAF and NS Medals.

In fact, I wonder where the alternative medal market actually has these already.

On medals (and Walts) there was an old boy featured on TV as the youngest sailor on D-day; he was 16 I think which makes him 86. Now he had a chest full of gongs. I couldn't make out how many stars he had but I did wonder how, at 16 or 17 by war end, he had at least 4 campaign stars.

[teeteringhead]

I seem to recall that the Accumulated Service Medal was lobbied for because of the many repeat visits to Northern Ireland that were not otherwise recognised. O-D, as ever, you are correct.

One was in Whitehall when the ACSM was being staffed, and it was very much Army and NI driven. The argument could be (and often was!) summarised thus:

Flt Lt Flashheart flies one Harrier sortie in South Atlantic, one Buccaneer sortie in Lebanon, and one Tonka sortie in GW1 - result: 3 medals.

Pte Baldrick meanwhile, does 4 months in NI every other year for 20 years - result: 1 medal

Teeters
(GSM and 2 clasps (30 years apart!), ACSM and bar!) ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN,

I knew a Yorkshire man that appended CDM to his name. A CDM and bar would be a good award to V-force aircrew. For those that flew actual QRA missions a MB.

For the kipper fleet (Kinloss) a JP or (St Mawgan) a CP.

:)

[Surplus]

Can I get a 'Volcano Club' bar for my S.A.M? I was there twice during the period.

[Melchett01]

For those that flew actual QRA missions a MB

PN - I mis-read that first time round. For a brief moment I thought you were talking about launching QRA against Main Building and I experienced a warm glow and a brief surge of morale at the idea :ok:

Then I re-read it and my morale settled back down quicker than a mushroom cloud evaporating :sad:

[MPN11]

teeteringhead ... never saw that paper. Perhaps it was "Army Eyes Only"?

Still believe the ACSM [?] was a good decision, though. Too many guys 'suffered' long enough to deserve it.

Melchett01 ... launching Q against MB is surely a nugatory operation? When did MoD ever get off the ground?

[Wander00]

One thing that puzzles me, I am sure when I was at MPA/RAF Mt Pleasant for first 4 months of 1986 it was still deemed an "operational" tour/posting/whatever. It was still thought possible that a rogue Argie squadron commander might launch an unauthorised strike on the Falklands so it was deemed to be a bit "dangerous", but not even a GSM to sully the pristine chest of my No1 uniform. A bit late to be bothered now, but there do seem to be oddities in the system.

[1.3VStall]

28 years in light blue.

Two wars in my time - Falklands and GW1.

For both I was serving as a "Whitehall Warrior".

Result? Completely bare tunic!

Do I care? No!

Best 28 years I ever spent in my life!

(Glad I'm not in now though!)

[Tankertrashnav]

I couldn't make out how many stars he had but I did wonder how, at 16 or 17 by war end, he had at least 4 campaign stars.

P-N , unlikely, but not impossible. He gets the France & Germany Star for his efforts on D Day. Later his ship is sent to the Far East and on the way sees active service in the Eastern Med, which earns him the Italy Star, then his Far East service earns him either the Burma Star or the Pacific Star (but not both). Add on his 1939-45 Star and you have your four campaign stars.

Either that or he was dissatisfied with what he had and bought a few more to augment his group!

[Lima Juliet]

Rather than issue more gongs, how about giving us a day to day uniform where you can wear ribbons. My half dozen only ever get aired at the odd Dining In, the Summer Ball, the Annual Cockers P and a hats on discussion with no tea and biscuits!

Bring back a derivative of Battle Dress (you know the one that the Public recognise and with a bit of heritage behind it!!). Or put ribbon bars on our nasty polyester shirts!

LJ

[500N]

Or put ribbon bars on our nasty polyester shirts!I didn't realise the UK didn't have that like they do here in Aus.
That's surprising to me.

I was in over here at a time when very few had any medals, you had the last of the Vietnam era soldiers
so most had nothing. Now you have quite a few with 3 rows and most with two rows.

Personally looking at the UK, just my HO but I think the UK is too tight on the medal front
(and the US over the top the other way, medal or badge for everything !).

[NutLoose]

Quote:
For those that flew actual QRA missions a MB


Or perhaps a one for not flying as in the RAFG Jag force.

And 8 years of RAF Odihams food in the 70's must have been above and beyond the call of duty..

And silver jubilee medals for all :p

[Old-Duffer]

If one looks at the study by Sir John Holmes, one sees some fairly serious gaps in his remit. Given that the issue (or not as the case might be) of medals has always been emotive, the opportunity for Holmes' study to deal with the thing once and for all has been missed.


Several things, including those mentioned above, might have been covered and I offer these without any opinion as to which way the coin should have landed.


The award of a long service medal for personnel, regardless of rank or combinations of non commissioned and officer service.


A review of the disqualification criteria, which affect mostly young personnel in the early years of service but which prevent them being awarded the LS&GCM in later years.


The different lengths of service required in different parts of the reserve and volunteer reserve forces eg; VR and VR(T) are 10 and 12 years but with different continuity terms and certain classes of the RAFR get nothing because they are deemed to be civil servants.


The replacement of the seven or is it eight different gongs for various parts of the Bulkans and issued by 3(?) different agencies, by a single 'quality' British campaign medal.


The award of a proper medal which denotes the MiD, and Queen's Commendation for Bravery, Valuable Service etc. After all, service personnel may wear the Royal Humane Society and certain other civilian medals, albeit on the right.


Confirmation that the events in Hong Kong during 1967-69, which got a bit hot at times - the events that is, not HK - were not sufficient to warrant a clasp to the GSM. This activity might also be undertaken for several other bits of 'nasty' over the last 50 years or so.


The whole question of the 'levels of gallantry' introduced circa 1994 could well do with a fresh look, given that they were originally set in a very different era than that in which the forces have operated in the last 15 years or so.


Old Duffer

[teeteringhead]

O-D

:ok:

[Al R]

I had been out a year and received a message asking if I wanted to drop in at some time to collect my long gong from OC PSFs safe, never did. Cold War medal? Hmmmm, not sure - when we're all old enough to warrant some attention through political clout then there will be one. Definitely the need for a wound stripe though, or something like that.

[Tankertrashnav]

I quite like LJ's idea of a pin back rigid ribbon bar for wear in shirt sleeve order, etc - if you've got them, flaunt them, I say!

Definitely the need for a wound stripe though, or something like that

Not been issued in the UK since WW2, as far as I know, but I think another good idea, although there will always be argument over what constitutes a wound! Incidentally, when looking into this in some old references, I discovered these are correctly called "wound strips" (not stripes), but like everyone else I've always called them stripes.

[FODPlod]

The qualifying period for the award of the South Atlantic Medal without the Rosette will be extended from 12 July to 21 October 1982I'd be interested to know why this end date was selected.

Here's the salient bit from the review as published among the other papers (http://www.parliament.uk/depositedpapers#toggle-1168) on the Parliament website: INDEPENDENT MEDAL REVIEW - Falklands War: should the time limit of 12th July 1982 for qualification for the South Atlantic medal without Rosette be extended? (http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2014-1168/Final_final_draft_SOUTH_AT_REPORT_29.DOC)

CONCLUSION

Operation Corporate was a great success. The Royal Navy, in a remarkably short period, gathered a task force together, and sailed 8000 miles to the Falkland Islands. A large number of Merchant Navy ships were taken up from trade. From 2 April to 14 June 1982 the RN provided protection and supplies in the face of fierce opposition; the Royal Marines and Army fought a superior number of enemy and successfully liberated the Islands; the RAF provided essential air cover (sic) and resupplied those ashore as best they could, given the distances, with skill and bravery. The award of the South Atlantic Medal to those engaged in the period of hostilities with the medal and rosette was fully justified.

The issue lies in the selection of the date of 12th July as the cut off period for the award of the medal without the rosette. This decision, within days of the ending of hostilities, was remarkably rapid, and is considered by many observers to have been premature. Although the Argentine forces on the Falkland Islands had surrendered, it is clear that the British Government consistently feared, with good reason, for a significant further period, that there might be a resumption of hostilities. In particular they were nervous that the Argentine Government, notably the Argentine Air Force, which had operated to deadly effect during the war, might initiate some form of “revenge attack”. It was this assessment of the risk that resulted in the three services having to remain at very high states of alert, in extremely rigorous conditions, to maintain a credible defence of the Islands. Although there were in the event no fresh attacks, this may well have been at least in part because of the deterrent effect of British forces maintaining their ability to respond to any threat more or less immediately

In Sir John Holmes’ original review, he identifies one factor which can justify a change in earlier decisions regarding medallic recognition as “Significant new information becoming available that had not been considered previously”. In this case, the very early choice of the cut-off date of 12th July, which may have been at least partly driven by a perceived need, for political reasons, to ensure visible early rewards for the military success, in time for a planned parade in the early autumn, did not reflect or recognise the high degree of risk, as confirmed in repeated Cabinet Office Papers, which continued to exist in the period immediately after the ceasefire. Recognition of and compliance with this risk caused all those still involved in the Falklands Campaign to endure exceptional levels of rigour for several more months.

RECOMMENDATION

In these circumstances I believe that it is justified to extend the current period for qualification of the South Atlantic Medal without the Rosette, on the same conditions as before, to the 21st October 1982. That is the date when the requirement for ships to maintain ‘Defence Watch’ status was removed, because the airfield at Stanley was complete and operational, and the threat from Argentine forces was considered to have reduced sufficiently to justify such a step.

The number of personnel who would benefit from this decision is hard to calculate exactly but is likely to be around 10,000. The cost should be limited, even if new medals have to be struck, which is not certain, given the numbers originally produced. Research to establish eligibility should be relatively straightforward since the events are relatively recent and good records are readily available.

This explains the significance of the Rosette on the South Atlantic Medal: South Atlantic Medal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Atlantic_Medal)
...The rosette remains an unusual feature for a British medal and was used in this case because otherwise fewer than two hundred medals would have been issued to the Royal Air Force. The vast majority of the medals were issued with a rosette whereas over 90% of the medals issued to the Royal Air Force are without the rosette and thus rarer, the recipients having been stationed on Ascension Island, some 3,300 nmi (6,100 km) north of the Falkland Islands and the war zone...

[Davef68]

P-N , unlikely, but not impossible. He gets the France & Germany Star for his efforts on D Day. Later his ship is sent to the Far East and on the way sees active service in the Eastern Med, which earns him the Italy Star, then his Far East service earns him either the Burma Star or the Pacific Star (but not both). Add on his 1939-45 Star and you have your four campaign stars.

Was he RN or Merchant Navy? Having recently inherited my grandfather's MN medals, I was reading the qualification criteria insert - beyond the 39-45 star, for many the qualification is one day in an operational area or one docking at a port in an operational area, so in a year you could quite easily get the 39/45, Atlantic, France & Germany, Italy and Burma star. And of course, the Arctic star is now an option as well.

Boats moved around a bit!

[Old-Duffer]

I found the criteria for the award of the South Atlantic Medal and the Gulf War Medal (1990/91 version that is) 'interesting'.


In both cases - Ascension Island in the first and Cyprus in the second - that the appropriate medal without clasp was awarded to personnel based there. My recollection was that the medals and the criteria for their award were not determined until the post conflict period. By that time, it would have been readily apparent that neither location had come under attack nor IIRC was either 'closely threatened' by the enemy.


Does anybody know the rationale for the gongs going to people on ASI or Cyprus? I ask as a matter of interest, not to start a rant.


As an aside, shortly after the conclusion of GW1, I attended a briefing (I was at HQSTC at the time) and one of the great men indicated that those of us who had been bunker bunnies during the recent unpleasantness would probably get a campaign medal. I thought this both unlikely (proved to be right) and unjustified (slept in a warm bed every - hence undeserved).

[Tankertrashnav]

so in a year you could quite easily get the 39/45, Atlantic, France & Germany, Italy and Burma star. And of course, the Arctic star is now an option as well.

Slight amendment to that, you could not have both Atlantic and France & Germany Stars, you could only have one, with the clasp for the other, if entitled.

Prior to the introduction of the Arctic Star the maximum number of campaign stars which could be awarded was 5, and, as Davef68 says, these are usually seen on groups to RN, or more often MN recipients. Most famous example of this is the group awarded to Lieutenant Phillip Mountbatten, RN (HRH Prince Phillip), including his MID for the Battle of Cape Matapan. I assume there are now groups with 6 campaign stars, although I have yet to see one.

Does anybody know the rationale for the gongs going to people on ASI or Cyprus? I ask as a matter of interest, not to start a rant.

Plenty of precedence for that. In the Boer War, troops who were guarding Boer prisoners on St Helena were awarded the Queen's South Africa Medal without clasp, and, even further afield, garrison troops in Malta and Gibraltar during the period of the war were awarded the Queen's Mediterranean Medal.

[skippedonce]

LJ for president of the next review board!

[iRaven]

Viva El Presidente!!! :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

I've never been so popular - I'll quit whilst I'm ahead!









.....wah, only kidding! :ok:

[Onceapilot]

Hmmmm, terribly difficult to argue specific cases in such a minefield of rival merit! However, one unrecognised joint effort is, The Cold War. Fought, without present recognition, largely by the volunteer members of all Services. The Cold War was, nonetheless, fought and won. Surely, there is sufficient merit for the recognition of the efforts of around one million servicemen in this campaign! Or, is that the problem? :oh:

OAP

[Sloppy Link]

The problem is.....cash.

[Sand4Gold]

I can still hear those 4.a.m phone calls - and then landing at field-sites in Germany approx 12 hrs later - happy days. I digress, if I wasn't worthy of Silver and Diamond Jubilee Medals after serving Aunty Betty for nearly 40 years, then - for me - they can stick any consideration of a Cold War Medal right up where the Sun doesn't shine.

And while I'm on my soap box re medals - South Atlantic Medal (?), for those who never went further South than Ascension Island, seriously? There was a greater threat to life from Guatemala flying up and down the Belize/Guat border?

If it had not been for Sandy Hunter's push (Cdr BFC), I doubt those on Cyprus would have received a gong - within range!?*

"Breathe in, breathe out..."

[Tankertrashnav]

And while I'm on my soap box re medals - South Atlantic Medal (?), for those who never went further South than Ascension Island, seriously? There was a greater threat to life from Guatemala flying up and down the Belize/Guat border?

I should think the troops who'd slogged across the veld getting picked off by Boer farmers probably took a similar cynical attitude to the recipients of the Queen's Mediterranean Medal (see post #48), whose main risk was catching a dose of clap down in The Gut in Valetta.

[Pontius Navigator]

On ASI in 1984 things were quite relaxed with only the 5 or 6 senior officers wearing headdress. As the Timmy started to stage through the operation was winding down quite nicely and eventually Serco took over.

However before Serco took over, just after the Timmy started, a Regt Officer was sent out to create a ground defence plan, DPM was required I believe, and even exercises conducted.

So, during the war and immediate aftermath things were relaxed, enjoyable, and worked smoothly. Came the new Ops block, the draw down of the air bridge and peace, so the pain began :)

[NutLoose]

Out of interest why did they drop the GSM? A lot of the recent conflicts could have been covered by a simple bar, or was it something to do with the bling factor as in changing the uniform design to increase the recruitment rate?

[Sloppy Link]

Two theories, both of which have equal credence. Firstly, there is only enough room on the medal for five bars, I think by the time of it's cessation there were 13 bars. Secondly, there was the realisation that when the ribbon alone was worn, the theatre of operations was not recognised as the ribbon alone is relatively faceless and even with the bars, an observer has to invade ones personal space to read what the bar says.

[Pontius Navigator]

My grandfather had the pre-1962 GSM earned in 'Iraq' in 1920.

Not sure when it was first issued but 40 odd years for each is something.

Medals day to day are not worn so I suspect many people never see them.
That said, on a cruise last week an Army SO wore his full-size medals (12 or so) on his undress jacket.

[NutLoose]

I can understand that, but as with the previous GSM the ribbon was simply changed, same colours, different width, surely that could have been sone again, or even a change of design at a set date as happened before, then the bar amount wouldn't have been an issue, as for invading ones space, most joe public will still not know what ribbon is what, so that will still occur,

[Janda]

I am somewhat taken aback that no one has mentioned a Cod War medal. Those of us in the Maritime forces that had to come up against Icelandic Gun Boat warriors in those hostile seas. I know I found it quite trying cooking a honkers stew in the Nimrod galley!!!!!;)

[Tankertrashnav]

My grandfather had the pre-1962 GSM earned in 'Iraq' in 1920.

Not sure when it was first issued but 40 odd years for each is something.

First issued in 1918, with the clasp for South Persia, last one was Brunei in 1962. Only issued to the Army and RAF - the Navy had their own medal until the 1962 GSM came in, which was tri-service.

[NutLoose]

TTN while on the subject why do they no longer award the MC as they did for aerial warfare during WW1

[Old-Duffer]

NL,


The 'original' GSM was issued twice IIRC first pre WWII and secondly post WWII up to Dec 1962 when Brunei was the last clasp. Not sure how many clasps were issued for both.


Your MC versus DFC might relate to when the DFC was instituted and remember, the RFC was an Army thing!!


TTN will have the full details - I shall defer to him.


Old Duffer

[teeteringhead]

The 'original' GSM was issued twice IIRC first pre WWII and secondly post WWII up to Dec 1962 when Brunei was the last clasp. Not sure how many clasps were issued for both.

When one was first at the Secret Hampshire Helicopter Base, the PRO was an aged, bald, monocled RAF Regt Flt Lt with lots of ribbons - unusual in them days.

He (correctly) wore his pre-'62 GSM in front of his war medals, which looked most odd and confused a lot of SWOs!

Think the bar was Palestine in the '30s......

[just Googled it - Wiki says "Palestine" bar was 19 Apr 36 - 3 Sep 39. Think we can work out why THAT closing date was used! Wiki also says 17 clasps for that one (7 before and 10 after WW2) and 13 - including the rare "South Vietnam" for the 1962 version.]

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, just checked, his GSM was IrAq and Kurdistan.

[MPN11]

A though occurred to me as I was reading assorted Hansard bits and links to papers 'lodged in the Commons Library ... The General Service Medal 1918 - 62 with clasp “BERLIN AIRLIFT” should be awarded for at least one day’s service to all aircrew, RAF and civilian, who took part in the Berlin Airlift operation from 25 June 1948 to 6 October 1949 inclusive.
Were any loadies/despatchers/cargo-handlers on those flights? i.e. non-aircrew? Or was the ability to carry max freight critical, and leave loading/unloading to ground personnel?

I just thought that there might have been equal 'risk and rigour' for non-aircrew on those flights. And just one day's service could have sprung up a few anomalous individuals who might have qualified.

@ teeteringhead ... we had an ATCO of mature years at Manby in the 60s, whose ribbons started with the Northwest Frontier and a GSM before the WW2 stars etc. Definitely caught one's eye by being so different.

[Tankertrashnav]

O-D - 17 clasps issued for the 1918 GSM. The only Brit recipients of the 'Southern Desert Iraq' clasp (1928) were from 30, 55 and 70 Squadrons, RAF. The newly announced 'Cyprus' clasp to the 1962 GSM will bring the total to 14 clasps for that medal (you are quite correct up to this date teeters).

You are right about the MC, of course, but it continues to be available to RAF officers when operating on the ground. There were a number awarded to escaped RAF POWs during WW2, and of course quite a few have gone to RAF regiment officers. When I was at Catterick we had a squadron leader who had won the MC in Aden, and even more unusually a wing commander who sported the ribbon of the MM which he had won as a corporal during WW2.

Re Cold War and Cod War - how about two new so-named clasps to the GSM - they'd look quite good together!

[NutLoose]

Thanks guys, that's answered the question I always wondered about.

[Nugget90]

It may well be that I am not the only follower of this thread who, having served in the RAF for 20 or so years in the 1960s and 70s - and was proud to have done so - left the Service with not a single medal from HMG. This matters when, on occasions such as Remembrance Day, there is nothing to show that I, too, served my Queen and Country - for the little veterans badge is no substitute for a medal.

In my local Church last year, only three people displayed medals on Remembrance Day: the population at large never had to undertake National Service and is fast losing a connection with the Armed Services. And so I am bitterly disappointed that those who assessed the recently-released Review Papers into medallic recognition failed to appreciate how important it is that a simple medal should be awarded that all who served for more than a few years. I simply feel let down by a succession of governments that have failed to grasp this simple point.

'Risk and rigour' properly underscore the award of a campaign medal, but that's not what the current campaign for a 'National Defence Medal' is all about. Many of you who read this will probably wear either or both of the Queen's Golden and/or Diamond Jubilee Medal(s). I was serving when Her Majesty celebrated her Silver Jubilee, and when it became known that medal was to be struck we all looked forward to receiving one as recognition of our service. How disappointing it was then to learn that only a very few would be released and that most of us would be excluded from this award.

I hope that a government soon will reconsider the recently-announced decision that the case for a National Defence Medal is not strong enough, and will see the request as simply a plea for recognition of service rendered in the past - very much as has occurred in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Heavens above, the award of a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal to officers who don't qualify for a Reserve or Cadet Forces medal would be something!

A 'thank you' from the State is all that many of us would appreciate.

Nugget 90

PS My local Mothers' Union has asked me to give a talk this coming November on 'My Father's Medals' as my Dad saw service across in both Europe and Asia in WWII. The reason for this request is that nobody in church that day understood what any of those I wore on my right chest meant. I am pleased, and proud, to comply.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nugget et all, the Government was horrified at the potential cost.

May I ask if such a medal, or several, were authorized for wear but not authorized for issue, would you buy your own?

The Silver Jubilee could be one. The National (Service) Defence medal and a National Defence medal (Regular service) could be others with length of service or theatre of service bars.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, can you post a list of post 1962 GSM bars?

[Davef68]

You are right about the MC, of course, but it continues to be available to RAF officers when operating on the ground.

The same, of course, applies to other flying services. The Jugroom fort Apache rescue mission saw DFCs awarded to the two pilots who stayed in the aircraft and MCs to the two who had to leave the aircraft and assist on the ground.

[teeteringhead]

Pontius The 13 I refer to at post 65 above are:

Borneo
Radfan
South Arabia
Malay Peninsula
South Vietnam
Northern Ireland
Dhofar
Lebanon
Mine Clearance, Gulf Of Suez
Gulf
Kuwait
N. Iraq & S. Turkey
Air Operations Iraq

plus the newly announced Cyprus one TTN mentions at post 68. South Vietnam is the rarest - only authorised for Australian Forces and only 69 clasps issued - all to members of AATTV (Australian Army Training Team (!!) Vietnam)

[Nugget90]

The answer to your question, 'If such a medal were to be authorised, would I be prepared to purchase it' is, "Yes". I would not, however, purchase and wear an unauthorised medal since that would defeat the true 'award' element. I would also offer my time to help reduce costs likely to be incurred in processing applications and might also make a donation if this were to be acceptable.

When I answered Sir John Holmes' request for input in 2012, I began my e-mail with the words, 'Not for myself, but for future generations of servicemen and women who might experience a long period without any opportunity to earn a medal ...'. I don't know if you watched any of the parade at Folkestone this afternoon, but few in the RAF contingent had any medals on display: after our troops return from Afghanistan there may be another 'medal famine' on the way which will disappoint many, I am sure, and this ought to be avoided by recognising service and commitment.

[Nugget90]

Further to the occasional posts on the 'South Vietnam' clasp to the 1962 GSM awarded only to members of the Australian Army Training Team, I have a suspicion that the recipients were later offered the opportunity to 'convert' this to the Vietnam Medal (VM - awarded for operational service in South Vietnam between 1964 and 1973).

Nobody has yet mentioned - in this thread - the Vietnam Logistic and Support Medal (VLSM) that was instituted as late as 1993 but, using the same medal as the VM yet with a plain supporter and different ribbon that included brown to represent the earth and waters of the Mekong River. (Look it up, it really is quite colourful!)

The same medal was used as this design as this had been struck whilst Australia adhered to the Imperial (British) Honours System, which is why it bears the image of HM The Queen. To qualify, one had to be either in the Australian Armed Forces or integrated with them. Thus of the 10,000 or so that were awarded, most of the recipients were the crews of the C130 Hercules and sailors of HMAS Sydney that conveyed the army's heavy vehicles up the Mekong, i.e. temporary visitors. Qantas crews who deployed troops via Richmond, Townsville and Saigon also qualified, as did some medical personnel and - quite recently - qualification was extended to include Sabre pilots and Australian ground forces who had been based at Ubon in Thailand defending the USAF F4s and Jolly Green Giants based there. (RAAF elements based at Vung Tau, etc. qualified for the VM, not the VLSM.)

[Old-Duffer]

The ‘medal famine’ referred to in this Thread, did not begin to be reversed until GW1 in 1990/1. The very significant deployments of all services meant a plethora of Gulf medals. The arrival of a Labour Government coincided (approximately) with a more interventionist policy on the world stage and generated not just British campaign medals but significant numbers from other agencies. Despite serious cuts in defence resources, one would be unwise to believe that there is/will be any less appetite amongst our political masters – of any colour – to rattle sabres if there are thought to be votes in it.

Returning to the theme of a ‘service medal’ to recognise commitment, perhaps Sir John Holmes asked the wrong people. I believe that, in part, the rise in ‘bling’: that is the unofficial commemorative medals’ market, is fed by the general discontent that former service personnel have at how their service is not valued.

It is said that the problem with extending the LS&GCM to include officers is; ‘what about the officer who does not meet the good conduct part of the gong’? The counter argument to that is; ‘if an officer’s conduct falls short of that expected, he should not be in the service anyway’.

It follows that an LS&GCM, awarded at – say – the 15 year point to all ranks would recognise commitment over a sustained period. If there is an ‘unease’ about the conduct element, then a new medal called – say – ‘The Armed Forces Service Medal’ could be substituted instead. The very long and exemplary service of non-commissioned personnel can still be rewarded and recognised by the Meritorious Service Medal, as at present.

Old Duffer

[Pontius Navigator]

TTH, thank you, so Rhodesia, Belize, Kuwait (1st time), Suez don't feature.

[FODPlod]

The official UK Government webpage may prove useful:Medals: campaigns, descriptions and eligibility (https://www.gov.uk/medals-campaigns-descriptions-and-eligibility)

[Sloppy Link]

PN, they wouldn't because ....

Rhodesia -separate medal, always considered a bit of a funny as it wasn't a campaign but a peace brokering tour. Is always worn in the most junior of positions ie always to the left (as worn) regardless of when it was awarded in relation to others.

Belize - Overseas Garrison that also provided valuable jungle training, not certain this warrants a campaign medal, don't recall a single shot being fired in anger, not even serious threat from Guatemala post our invitation to Garrison.

Kuwait - elaborate what you mean the first time. If you refer to 1990/91, the Gulf Medal covers that with either of the two bars or no bar at all as above. There was a bar for the follow on troops as stated earlier.

Suez - happened before the 1962 GSM. Regardless, there is a bar to the GSM 1918 (and the Naval GSM), awarded retrospectively about 8 years ago. I think the wording is "Canal Zone".

Some of that is opinion based, always happy to argue my point in a civil manner over a beer!

[MPN11]

@ Nugget90 ... a senior RAF Regt officer of my acquaintance did his full career to 55 without a single medal. He was either 'wrong place wrong time', or 'not long enough' ... missed the Silver Jubbly, gone before the Golden one, etc etc. But then there Air Officers back then with nothing, so I didn't feel left out ;)

@ Old-Duffer ... indeed, an officer's Good Conduct is implicit, as I noted earlier.

Being involved with the RAF post-retirement in 94, I was staggered to see the collection of medal/ribbons people has earned. There was a 'sea change' in Military involvement that many of us avoided, or were too old to participate in. The guys earned theirs the hard way - I did nothing special for 30 years, but I got my Vet Badge.

[Pontius Navigator]

SL, of course, brain fade, Kuwait was '61, likewise Greece and Palestine were also pre- '62.

I mentioned Belize from a briefing by the guy on Ascot Ops that night when it blew up. The initial reaction was Where? Same with South Georgia I guess.

[teeteringhead]

Further to the occasional posts on the 'South Vietnam' clasp to the 1962 GSM awarded only to members of the Australian Army Training Team, I have a suspicion that the recipients were later offered the opportunity to 'convert' this to the Vietnam Medal (VM - awarded for operational service in South Vietnam between 1964 and 1973).

Nugget 90 It seems others - in particular RAAF - were awarded the clasp, but they subsequently had it removed :eek: and replaced with the Vietnam Medal, leaving only AATTV as recipients.

Wiki (usual caveats!) has it thus:

South Vietnam
This clasp was instituted by Royal approval on the 16 December 1965 for "members of our Australian Armed Forces who qualify by participation in operations in defence of the Republic of Vietnam as from 24 December 1962, and to a date to be determined,..." Between 1963 and 1965, at least 68 members of the Australian Army Training Team Vietnam (AATTV) and 232 members of the RAAF Transport Flight Vietnam qualified for the clasp. However, a decision of 1966 relating to the institution and award of the Vietnam Medal led to the stripping of the award from the RAAF personnel. A Royal Warrant dated 8 June 1968 retrospectively changed the qualifying periods to:
Between 24 December 1962 and 29 May 1964,
30 days' service in ships operating in inland waters or off the Vietnamese coast.
1 day in the service of a land unit.
1 operational sortie.
30 days' service on an official visit.
For service after 29 May 1964, personnel were awarded the Vietnam Medal. Thus, only 68 clasps were issued, and all 68 went to AATTV members.

[teeteringhead]

MPN

@ Old-Duffer ... indeed, an officer's Good Conduct is implicit, as I noted earlier.

One hates to disagree with Old-Duffer, but one knows of a number of officers who have been Court Martialled and yet not dismissed the Service. Surely they would not qualify for a LS&GCM??

[rarelyathome]

The ‘medal famine’ referred to in this Thread, did not begin to be reversed until GW1 in 1990/1.The very significant deployments of all services meant a plethora of Gulf medals. The arrival of a Labour Government coincided (approximately) with a more interventionist policy on the world stage and generated not just British campaign medals but significant numbers from other agencies.

I was privy to quite a lot at that time and I recall an edict that said something along the lines that 'It's now about getting medals on chests' when the NATO Balkans medal was authorised. That mentality has grown and there has been some unfortunate medal collecting over the last decade. I have witnessed considerable rotation of Army personnel through theatres for just over 30 days which made sure that the rear party never had to look out of place. RAF Sqns were not immune either. Various 'studies' always seemed to need to last just over a month in theatre too. IMHO it rather degrades the value if some of the rows of campaign medals we see today have been awarded for 31 day stints. Too many people judge by the number of medals not by the way they were earned.

[Whenurhappy]

Oh Goody! Another round medal (LS& GCM) to add to the constellation that I have. Bloody expensive to get both sets mounted and 5 - yes 5 - sets of ribbons to be updated on uniforms various. And in my last tour, too.

Actually, irrespective of the large number of medals SP have these days (and the churn of SP is such that the numbers of those with medals form the Balkans, for example, is rapidly diminishing), I think a Long Service medal for Officers is, err, long overdue

[Old-Duffer]

Ah yes Rarely,


I recall a line in the book '101 Nights' by Ray Ollis. A pompous career sqn ldr says to F/S navigator, something about the amount of flying. The nav, who has a BEM for gallantry, replies: 'Sir, it's not how many hours you've got but what you've got in to the hours'.


Returning to the post above and TTH's comments about officers who have been court martialled but not discharged, perhaps a medal based on 'good conduct', rather than exclusively service, needs to differentiate between disciplinary action for a 'technical offence' and something which calls the officer's honesty/integrity to be questioned. Thus Flt Lt Buggins is guilty of - say - a low flying offence. However, Flt Lt Snooks makes inaccurate claims for boarding school allowance. The former says a lot about Buggins maturity but Snooks honour is shot to ribbons. Snooks would not get the medal but Buggins probably would. Someone will mention 'rehabilitation of offenders' but part of t he punishment with which Snooks must live in the service is not getting the gong. Hence, my personal preference is for a service medal and not a good conduct medal. This avoids the argument about arbitrating in individual cases.


Old Duffer

[teeteringhead]

Whenurhappy

Oh Goody! Another round medal ... damn' cost of miniatures too...

But, as I have heard said (tongue in cheek) at the Secret Hampshire Helicopter Base (where there are many of another shape)....:ok: Round ones don't count!!

[Whenurhappy]

TTH,


My thoughts exactly. If a casual observer couldn't determine from my rank, thinning and greying hair - as well as a collection of campaign medals going back 20 years, and another awarded in 1987 - that I'd served for quite a long time, well, what's the point? At least it will be a proper medal - silver, the Queen on it, etc. Not like the NATO medals...

[MAD Boom]

But, as I have heard said (tongue in cheek) at the Secret Hampshire Helicopter Base (where there are many of another shape)....
Quote:
Round ones don't count!!


Tongue in cheek my @rse. Next you'll be telling me Chinook drivers are not w@nkers........:)

[MPN11]

One hates to disagree with Old-Duffer, but one knows of a number of officers who have been Court Martialled and yet not dismissed the Service. Surely they would not qualify for a LS&GCM??
Indeed. I had the misfortune, as his Sqn Cdr, to charge and then refer to the Stn Cdr one of my JOs for Court Martial. But then has was a former cpl. ;)

Survived and made sqn ldr, to my amazement, given the offence (which I shall not reveal, but which was most inappropriate behaviour).

[Whenurhappy]

Not trying to sound too eager, but has a DIN or somesuch been issued about a Hofficers' LS&GCM?

[Pontius Navigator]

After an email from the Worcester Medals Service I looked up the Government website to find the criteria for the extension period for the South Atlantic medal.

Surprisingly they have cocked it up. The extension is to 21 Oct 1982 when Mount Pleasant airfield opened.

As the nav on the first aircraft to land at MPA on 1 May 1985 I know they are wrong.

They probably mean Stanley airfield.

[chinook240]

Don't think you were on the first aircraft to land at MPA, went there many times before FW in a CH47!

[ImageGear]

Went in with nothing - came out with nothing.

Over a period of several months, being almost crisped up by some decidedly unfriendly nocturnal visitors. Filling and stacking mags so fast my fingers were raw just before being told by a (smart) Wupert, "your position is untenable and we won't be coming back for what's left - I suggest you leg it back to camp chop-chop and answer the challenges carefully".:eek:

Made me think that a few months in central stores for a gong would have been far more relaxing.

Imagegear

[ian16th]

Cyprus 1963-64
Those servicemen who served in Cyprus during the period 21 December 1963 to 26 March 1964 will be awarded the General Service Medal with clasp “CYPRUS 1963-64”. I can't remember what happened on the 26th March 1964, but I do know why they have chosen the start date.

'Cos I was Orderly Cpl at Akrotiri that day. :ok:

It was the Saturday before Xmas, and Cpl's Club Xmas Dance and Draw. An event that usually went on into the wee small hours. But I was tasked with shutting it down at 23:00 so that all the LoP's could be home in Limassol before 23:59.

It was the day the Greek Cypriots & Turkish Cypriots started violently disagreeing with each other.

Now a question that TTN might be able to answer, will my wife qualify? She'll be really narked if I get a GSM and she doesn't.

[Tankertrashnav]

Well now Ian, that depends if she was serving in the armed forces in Cyprus during the dates stated, or not. Obviously she wasn't your wife at that stage if she was serving, as those were the days when women had to leave the service before they got married (as Mrs TTN will testify!) But as far as I know, the qualifications for the award of campaign medals apply equally to men and women.

One interesting case is the award of the Naval General Service medal, bar "Trafalgar" which was awarded to a Jane Townsend, who was on board HMS Defiance during the battle. Presumably she was overlooked when the order "show a leg" went out before the ship sailed! Another is the award of the same medal with the bar "1st June 1794", which was awarded to Daniel Tremendous Mackenzie, who was born onboard HMS Tremendous at the height of the battle. The medal was not awarded until 1848, when he was 54, but it was backdated to the day of his birth! Again, what his mother was doing onboard is unclear!

[ian16th]

TTN

She was 'a dependent of a member of the force in Cyprus', so obviously won't qualify, but ironically she heard more gunfire then me!

I used to leave her in the hiring in Limassol every day, while I went to the safety of the SBA.

[Whenurhappy]

Rather than issue more gongs, how about giving us a day to day uniform where you can wear ribbons. My half dozen only ever get aired at the odd Dining In, the Summer Ball, the Annual Cockers P and a hats on discussion with no tea and biscuits!

In my present location, hot and humid, the slack handful of Army officers wear their ribbons on broaches on their Tropical Dress, on a daily basis. I've spent a few years in warm and sunny climates, but this is the first time I've seen ribbons worn on shirts. I suspect it's a local thing...has anyone else encountered this? Personally, I think it looks quite smart, but the RAF would then need to introduce a metal brevet...cue new thread, I suspect.

[downsizer]

Everyone on exchange in Oman does that (or did anyway).

[Whenurhappy]

Well, that's interesting. As SRAFO (single RAF officer) I might introduce it...to myself!

[downsizer]

They were wearing Omani uniforms though.

[Whenurhappy]

Ah, OK - of course. Hmmm. Might seek higher guidance.

[downsizer]

Sorry, probably should have made that clearer in the first post.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, further to Ian's, I was in a little village near Limasol, it is in Limasol now, in 1973 when the Greeks had a dress rehearsal for the invite to Turkey for round 2.

After the first couple of bombs we just used the excuse of the disturbance and then went to sleep.

Next day we drove round town rubber necking :)

[BATCO]

As ever our French friends set us an example we might wish to follow. 20 years military service is recognised by admission as a Chevalier of the Legion d'Honneur (titre militaire). This would equate to something like MBE (military division). Of further note, all must enter through this 'door' : ie you can't be a officer (officier) or commander (commandeur) until you have been a chevalier.

Admission is normally based on a simple application stating that one has completed the necessary 20 years. If your conduct has been good enough to still be in then award follows. Subsequent promotion requires a citation of some further merit which might include time or specific action, or both.

It would not be difficult to adapt the Order of British Empire (Mil div), replacing the LS&GCM, including officers (and getting more ORs into the Order).

Regards
Batco

[rlsbutler]

Wearing medals on shirts is nearer to us than Oman.

Firemen wear their Long Distance medal (and presumably any others they are entitled to) as an enamel brooch on the working shirt. Clearly the normal ribbon would not stand up to a daily soaking.

[Pontius Navigator]

Chinook, ok, I do know the C130 flight checker was not allowed to dirty the tarmac with mud or rubber.

As we were the proving flight before the 'official' first flight and opening I didn't see the point. The captain even did an autoland even though it was not cleared; the same captain that did a short landing at Lyneham.

[Whenurhappy]

Firemen wear their Long Distance medal (and presumably any others they are entitled to) as an enamel brooch on the working shirt. Clearly the normal ribbon would not stand up to a daily soaking.

I really don't think so - not in military uniform. Next step would be to cover the ribbons in clear plastic, as some republics do. Terribly outre, I'm afraid.

Given that the locals here are dressed up like, err, Christmas trees (if they had them, of course) I might go along with local British Army practise and wear ribbons on my shirt. Sadly the Bush Jacket is an obsolete piece of kit; I soooo wanted to dress like Roger Moore...

[downsizer]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-recognition-for-reserve-and-regular-military-service

New LS medal to be auth'd for all ranks....

[MPN11]

Mum ... that says 'Nice for the VR' after 10 years.

Oh, and possibly 15 years for Regulars?

What about the regulars after 30 years full-time commitment? Will I get a gong after all? Or TWO???

(I bet it won't be backdated, so neither of us will qualify)

[Whenurhappy]

Bu&&er!!

Next week I pick up 2 x No 1 tunics; 2 x No 6 tunics and a ribbon bar for No 6A (yes - look that one up); as well as remounted full size and miniatures. At not an inconsiderable cost. Which I will have to repeat when this turns up in the post. So back to the tailors (who must be jumping for joy now that campaign medals have dried up a bit...).

[Sloppy Link]

Certainly won't be two, just a second award bar as currently happens when an OR reaches thirty years or, if commissioned after seven years in the ranks.

[Melchett01]

Whenurhappy,

I wouldn't be too despondent just yet. A very welcome move in the right direction, but there were rather a lot of 'mays', 'coulds' and 'will seek agreement' in the press release. At the moment it sounds aspirational, and whilst I have no reason to doubt Mr Fallon's intent in this case, the small matter of cost might be an issue. I'm hoping that the cost has already been factored in and the announcement was made knowing that cost isn't going to be an issue, even in these tough times.

Medallic recognition is one of the few areas left to us that visibly recognises loyalty and achievement, service and sacrifice and contributes directly to ethos and esprit de corps. I really do hope they manage to get this through the various staffing and budgetary chains in a timely manner.

[Whenurhappy]

Melchett

This has already been heavily staffed, I believe, but if it is anything like the inter-Service fight over the criteria for the Elizabeth Cross (the Army was, err, dead against recognition of training deaths, for example), there will be delays. At which point I shall have left the service and selling Big Issue or playing an accordion.

[1.3VStall]

Good Lord! Does this mean that after nearly 28 years of commissioned service - which ended 19 years ago - I am finally going to get a gong next year?

My cup runneth over!!!:)

[snippy]

A great moment in my career when they forgot to award my 30 yrs LS&GC "Pip" and I had to go and pick it up from PSF........thrown across the desk to me by an SAC admin clerk with a "sign 'ere":rolleyes:

[ian16th]

Snippy

"sign 'ere"Off course!

A story of long ago.

When 214 Sqdn did the In Flight Refueling trials, we initially only passed fuel back and forth between our own a/c.

When the trials were deemed to be successful, and we became the RAF's 1st operational Tanker Sqdn, we started training other Sqdns in the black art.

As a result some desk bound Group Captain in either Group or Command, whose purpose in life was to audit Avtur consumption noticed that 214 Sqdn Valiant's were 'consuming' more Avtur per hour than the other Valiant Sqdns.

He phoned our CO and when it was pointed out that we 'gave away' thousands of gallons of Avtur, his immediate response was; 'But who signs for it?' :ugh:

[Melchett01]

snippy said A great moment in my career when they forgot to award my 30 yrs LS&GC "Pip" and I had to go and pick it up from PSF........thrown across the desk to me by an SAC admin clerk with a "sign 'ere"


Sounds about right, in comparison with the Army I've always found the RAF to be very hit and miss on these things. My TELIC medal was delayed a year after a batch of applications were 'forgotten' about in Handbreak House. My HERRICK medal was processed inside a month but sent to Leeming for some reason I have yet to fathom as I've never been posted there, whilst the accompanying NATO keepsake was tossed across the desk in a broken box. As for my QDJM, I was told to pick that out of a carrier bag taped to the corner of the desk on the way out of the office!

[Lima Juliet]

My UNPROFOR gong turned up nearly 5 years after my first day of qualifying service - in my Sqn 'pigoenhole' with a crumpled certificate! I always imagined it had done a tour of all the NATO/UN nations before it finally arrived.

My NATO FRY was properly awarded but both my OSM Afghanistan and GSM air Ops Iraq arrived in the post. Her Majesty's celebratory medals arrived in the post as well.

As for the LSGCM, will this go to FTRS as well?

LJ

[Stn120]

My South Atlantic Medal followed me around 4 stations before being awarded to me 8 years late after I have received 2 other medals. I assumed, I hadn't qualified for it.
It was at in the Chief Clerks drawer, when I went in to sign for my promotion, he said "oh by the way, we found this medal for you" and slid it across his desk at me. Had my name stamped around the rim, so why hadn't they bothered to locate me on whatever unit it was passed to? Blunties!!

[Tankertrashnav]

If the new medal does come in it will bring to an end the issue of medals which are among the longest to be continually issued to HM Forces. The RN LS & GC was instituted in 1831, and its current reverse design (a depiction of a three masted man of war) was introduced in 1848, an unbroken run of 167 years to date. The RAF LS & GC was instituted in 1919 and once again the reverse design has not changed since.

The original qualification period for the RAF medal was 18 years, this was only reduced to 15 years in 1977. Prior to 1947 the medal was not awarded to officers, subsequently they could receive it if they had at least 12 years service before being commissioned. RN officers could only receive their LS & GC after 1981, with the same requirement for previous non-commissioned service.

I understand that recent issues of the RAF LS & GC have been in silver plate, not silver. It would be nice if the new medal was in silver, but I'm not optimistic!

[downsizer]

I understand that recent issues of the RAF LS & GC have been in silver plate, not silver.

How can you tell a difference?

[Whenurhappy]

How can you tell a difference?

Oh yes - just look at sterling silver cutlery alongside some electro-plate, or an old silver shilling, for example. Deeper - and slightly duller - complexion, I'd say.

[Tankertrashnav]

Silver in this country is of sterling standard, which is 92.5% pure. Silver plating is done with as near as dammit 100% pure silver. As wheurhappy points out, there is a noticeable difference in the colour - the silver plated ones look more "glitzy".

This is all part of a depressing reduction in the quality of medals. The current issue of OBEs and MBEs which are made by a well-known firm of medallists which I will not mention are of very poor quality compared to the earlier versions which were either produced by The Royal Mint or Garrards, the crown jewellers. Even the boxes are cheap and nasty compared with the old plush lined cases.

And as for the 2002 QGJM - words fail me!!!!

[BEagle]

And as for the 2002 QGJM - words fail me!!!!

Indeed - I'm still trying to get the chocolate out of mine!

[Old-Duffer]

There's only one problem with the new long service medal announcement and that's the election.

Mr Fallon can announce what he wants but unless the incoming government agrees, the medal - like the budget - will just be so much meaningless chatter.

There then comes the thorny issue of historical eligibility. Is it to be awarded to those no longer in service but who had met the criterion for length of service of the new medal when they were active? Alternatively, is the counting to begin only at the time of the medal's initiation.

At the moment, it's possible to mix qualification times for some medals but not 'double dip'. Certain classes of reserve have been - unreasonably in my view - ineligible for things like the jubilee medals or any long service award. In my view all classes of reserve and regular need to have similar eligibility for awards. I accept, as has happened in other cases, that warlike operations are deemed to count double. Regulars do 15 years, cadet forces uniformed staff 12 years and volunteers ten - bag of nails!!

Then we come to the design of the medal and its ribbon - we need a new thread to discuss every possible permutation. The current Mrs O-D recalls the days when the correspondence on whether WRAF warrant officers should wear black or brown leather gloves filled several files worth. It didn't matter really 'cause they did away with the WRAF shortly afterwards.

Old Duffer

[Old-Duffer]

BEagle,

You need to remove the suspension ring and mounting lug, then heat the medal, turn it upside down. The chocolate then pours out.

It's Belgian milk, however and a bit tainted now.

[teeteringhead]

Certain classes of reserve have been - unreasonably in my view - ineligible for things like the jubilee medals :ok:;) klkl l;kdk ;;l;l

[Haart]

Well, as in many cases we are following our Commonwealth partners. Canada has had an all ranks, all Services, Regular and Reserve long service medal for nearly 70 years.

The Kiwis have an LSGC system based on our own but, according to the NZDF website, they introduced a long service medal for commissioned ranks back in the Eighties. Not a bad looking gong either. They even backdated the qualifying service from 1985 to nearly 8 years.

I think the Kiwi system is a fairly happy medium, albeit still fairly radical for the UK.

[November4]

And now...The Ebola Medal (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ebola-medal-for-service-in-west-africa)

Eligible Personnel
The Ebola Medal is to recognise the services of those supporting HMG’s effort in West Africa. Therefore the following groups who have been deployed to the operational area for service to the UK’s Ebola response efforts will be eligible for the medal:
a) Military personnel under the command of Commander of Joint Operations and other members of the UK Armed Forces who are providing direct support to HMG’s response to the Ebola crisis;
b) Any volunteer or employee directly deployed by the Department for International Development, UK Med, Public Health England, NHS, or Stabilisation Unit in support of HMG’s response to the Ebola crisis;
c) Any member of the UK civil service;
d) Any UK national working for a non-governmental organisation supporting the HMG response funded by the Department for International Development;
e) Any other UK national responding to the Ebola crisis in support of HMG’s response and whose service can be verified by HMG.

[Tankertrashnav]

There is a precedent for this in the award of the Hong Kong Plague Medal of 1894, which was awarded to civilians and servicemen present at the time. It is very scarce, only a few hundred were awarded to service personnel. It was not permitted to be worn in uniform but I hope that this new medal will be authorised for wear with other medals.

I see that the contract has gone to Worcestershire Medals, which is encouraging. I have always found their products to be of a good standard, unlike those of certain other medallists I could name.

[Melchett01]

Any news on the GSM 2008 that receives a brief mention in the JSP as being notified in early 2015?

[Yaydoot]

Wasn't there a rumour that there was going to be a "Cold War" medal?

[Tankertrashnav]

You dont want to believe everything P - N says ;)

[Wander00]

Like the Arctic Convoy and BC medals/clasps, they are waiting until we are nearly all dead, to keep down the cost...................

[Melchett01]

The DIN for the new GSM 2008 has finally hit the streets, but focusing mostly on the principle of the medal rather than the detail. Won't say anymore yet here as I think there will be a formal announcement, but for those serving it's on the DIN website.

Edited to add: 2015DIN09-022 General Service Medal 2008 refers.

[downsizer]

The DIN for the new GSM 2008 has finally hit the streets, but focusing mostly on the principle of the medal rather than the detail. Won't say anymore yet here as I think there will be a formal announcement, but for those serving it's on the DIN website.

Got a DIN ref number? I couldn't see anything on there...:confused:

[Haart]

If you have access the intranet, it should be the latest DIN to be published. As mentioned, no detailed criteria but contains a nice'ish graphic of the green/purple ribbon and the reverse of Britannia & Lion. Slightly more interesting than the reverse on the last GSM, fwiw.

[Melchett01]

One point on the new medal that sprung to mind - why, if in the DIN when it states the purpose the GSM is to fill a gap in metallic recognitin when an event doesn't warrant an OSM or campaign medal, does the medal state 'For Campaign Service' on the back?

What's the difference between an operation, a campaign and a sub-operation/campaign? If it's linked to scale, duration, intensity then why did 13 years in Afghanistan warrant an Operational Service Medal whilst Iraq was a campaign medal?

[1.3VStall]

So where is my "Cold War Medal" then? After nearly 28 years and leaving bare chested (I was a Whitehall Warrior for both the Falklands and GW1) I've been waiting desperately for a just reward to pin on my blazer, even losing sleep over it.

Only joking, I couldn't really give a sh1t!

[charliegolf]

I've been informed that I will receive my Cold War medal (several actually) in October 16. No ribbon or clasp, and no ceremony- the medals will all be sent to my bank. Monthly!

CG

[Melchett01]

That's fine for full size but what about the miniatures? Do you use 5p coins? :p

[1.3VStall]

CG,

Nail and head! The grateful country puts dosh into my bank account on the 24th of each month - pity it's taxed, though.

[downsizer]

Anyone know the DIN Number? I've looked all over the intrAnet and can't see anything....:\

[Melchett01]

Downsizer,

Try here:

Edited to add: 2015DIN09-022 General Service Medal 2008 refers.

[downsizer]

Thanks mate, I'll have a nosey tomorrow. Swear I couldn't see it today!

[Could be the last?]

Can anyone through some light on this anomaly with medals?

I was deployed last year to support a small UK trg team, which was part of a multinational contingent headed by the U.S. There were also a number of Canadians deployed supporting the same mission, and their contribution was formally recognised with a medal. Now, my understanding is that as a Commonwealth country the award of a medal is authorised by Her Majesty, so if the Canadians were receiving the award, why didn't the MoD/UK?

[ian16th]

Not all Commonwealth countries have HMQ as the head of state.

Though Canada is one of those that does have.

[OldAgeandTreachery]

In my case I left with qty 2 medals after 29 regular and 11 FTRS years. LSGC and the Jubilee medal.
I just didn't seem to be in the right place - ever. I'm not complaining.

Falklands - Visiting Aircraft Flight at Kinloss turning round spares run Jetstreams.
First Gulf War - 8 Sqn Shacks -not required or of any use!
Second Gulf War - FTRS at Kinloss Coordinating A/C deployment.


Thinks:- Maybe I WAS in the right place

[Tankertrashnav]

I've revived this thread rather than start a new one, but I spotted this story in the paper the other day

French firm to make British medals for first time - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/honours-list/12178882/Queens-honours-French-firm-to-make-British-medals-for-first-time.html)

I'm a bit in two minds over this. Having seen the very poor quality of awards being given out recently I think that perhaps the British makers who have lost out have only themselves to blame. The OBE I was given to mount with its proud recipient's existing medals looked as though it had come out of a Christmas cracker. Compared with the earlier splendid orders made by the Royal Mint or Garrards the modern awards are of much poorer quality.

That said, if the tender has been won entirely on the basis of price I have no great hopes for the quality of medals we can expect.

But did it have to be the French ?!!!!

:*

[MPN11]

Sad to see, TTN. I can however readily accept that price could be key driver here. Back when I used to order RAF shooting medals from Fattorini, it was quite eye-watering when the bills came in - and these weren't precious metal, or even plated!

[Union Jack]

But did it have to be the French ?!!!! - TTN

Recipients might just have to get used to being kissed on presentation - on all four cheeks....:eek:

Jack

[NutLoose]

A possible new ribbon design for the next medal?

http://sunshine-scrapbooking.co.uk/images/FranceFlagScrapbookingRibbon.jpg

[MPN11]

Ah, Nutloose, THAT one!! I was the instigator of that at RAFSAA :D

Who let you in the Stock Room at Bisley? ;)

[Union Jack]

A possible new ribbon design for the next medal? - Nutty

Reminds me of taking a yacht into Deauville and discovering that we didn't have a French courtesy flag on board, so we took a deep breath and hoisted Flag Tango and no one noticed for the next ten days, despite the colours being reversed with red nearest the halyard rather than blue....:=

Jack

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

On behalf of my late father I applied for and have recently received the GSM 1962 with clasp CYPRUS 1963-64. The bar is of a poor quality compared with that of the 2 clasps on his 1918 GSM. The latest of which is the CANAL ZONE clasp. Very disappointing.

As for the French being awarded the contract for new medals - words fail me !!!

Aaron.

[Tankertrashnav]

Good news, apparently there has been a bit of backtracking after some hostile questioning by a Labour MP in Parliament.

'Get this scandal sorted out': Dudley MP criticises Government over British medals made in France « Express & Star (http://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2016/03/03/get-this-scandal-sorted-out-dudley-mp-criticises-government-over-british-medals-made-in-france/)

"Because of the changes that we introduced to the procurement rules last year, we are allowed to take in local impact when we award contracts such as these and that is exactly what we intend to do

A Cabinet Office spokeswoman later said: "I can confirm that no French firm has been awarded a contract.

It remains to be seen whether the contracts will remain in Britain. Meantime maybe this will be a wake up call for British manufacturers and encourage them to up their game and not turn out the sort of shoddy work referred to by Aaron O'Dickydido. It can still be done, I have had a couple of private commissions done for me by a well known firm of medallists in the midlands and can attest that they can turn out superb work. Mind you, I didn't quibble with their quote - maybe as others have said that's the basic problem

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, the French could contest that ruling as on that basis they should have been awarded the contract for the Waterloo medal.
Get your free medal to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the Battle of Waterloo this year - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/features/your-free-medal-commemorate-200th-5139020)

[teeteringhead]

Had the privilege a couple of years ago of visiting the Royal Mint in Wales, where they were STILL producing - amongst lots of other stuff - old campaign medals.

And the quality control was amazing. They produced some of their rejects, gave me a large magnifying glass and invited me to spot the flaw which caused rejection. Beat me - they all looked perfect. Maybe TTN could have spotted a fault; I certainly couldn't't!

[Wensleydale]

Had the privilege a couple of years ago of visiting the Royal Mint in Wales


The Hole with a Mint in it!?

[Tankertrashnav]

P-N That would be a great idea, telling a French firm they could have the contract for OBEs etc if they produced a Waterloo commemorative first.

Sacre bleu!

[TwoTunnels]

I think it must have been the Royal Navy who set the criteria for the Op NEWCOMBE medal (GSM) as none of the aircrew (from a particular unit) who flew missions over Mali in 2013 qualify. Whereas if you were somewhere in the Atlantic you did.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, and a Trafalgar out of the iron from the cannon balls . . .

[mmitch]

In an article in the 'Mail' a British medal maker complained that although the British government put out to open tender (as required by EU rules) he had never seen one from the French. Where have I heard that one before?
mmitch.

[Tankertrashnav]

In an article in the 'Mail' a British medal maker complained that although the British government put out to open tender (as required by EU rules) he had never seen one from the French. Where have I heard that one before?
mmitch.The tender documents are kept in the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet in the basement of the municipal building in Clochemerle sur Seine, behind the door with a sign reading "Attention au leopard". There is no excuse for not bothering to find the correct documents.

(Acknowledgements to the late Douglas Adams ;))

[BlackadderIA]

I think it must have been the Royal Navy who set the criteria for the Op NEWCOMBE medal (GSM) as none of the aircrew (from a particular unit) who flew missions over Mali in 2013 qualify. Whereas if you were somewhere in the Atlantic you did.

That's been fixed in the latest DIN. Qualification is now 45 days continuous, 60 days cumulative or a single flight for aircrew.

[Melchett01]

That's been fixed in the latest DIN. Qualification is now 45 days continuous, 60 days cumulative or a single flight for aircrew.

Is 45 days the new 30 days?