Mahindra leaving Australia.

[TBM-Legend]

Looks like Gippsland will be out of the aircraft manufacturing loop sometime soon...

OSHKOSH: Mahindra floats US assembly for rebranded Airvan
By: STEPHEN TRIMBLEMILWAUKEE Source: Flightglobal.com 13 hours ago
Mahindra Aerospace showed up at EAA Airventure with a new brand for the GA8 and GA10 Airvan utility aircraft, new amphibious floats and new interest in finding a US-based assembly site.

The GA-8 and GA-10 brands were inherited by Mahindra by its acquisition of Australia’s Gippsland Aeronautics. Mahindra has now dropped the GA designation, rebranding the single-engined pistons as the Airvan 8 and Airvan 10.
Mahindra has already delivered nearly 300 Airvan 8s from a factory in Australia. As the Airvan 10 nears certification later this year, Mahindra is considering a new manufacturing plan for the Airvan 8, says Arvind Mehra, executive director and global chief executive.
About 90% of the Airvan 8 are made in the USA, pre-assembled at a Mahindra facility in Seattle and then shipped to Australia for final assembly, so it would be possible to reduce the price by moving production to the USA.
“That’s our long-term strategy,” Mehra says.
Mehra adds that the location should be within an existing aviation cluster.

[thorn bird]

Another one chased out by CAsA Bullsh..t???


"Safe Skies are Empty Skies"

[peterc005]

I can't see how this relates to CASA.

Never underestimate the ability of Indians to screw something up. If it's not incompetence it's corruption. Maybe both. Doing business with Indians invariably ends in tears.

[LeadSled]

Thorn Bird,
More true than you will ever know, the CASA "iron ring" have never forgiven the intervention by John Anderson, when he was Minister, that forced CASA to issue the original type certification and C.of A.

This move to the US is not just Mahindra, much of the production, and most of the development work was moved to US pre. Mahindra.

As the chaps will tell you, development that took years to never in Australia could be completed in months with the FAA.

I can't see how this relates to CASA.Petercoss,

That you "can't see" is a problem of your vision, it doesn't alter the facts.

Tootle pip!!

[bankrunner]

I'm surprised Gipps lasted here as long as they did.

It makes no sense to design or build aircraft (or cars or electronics, or much of anything else) in Australia. No federal government of either persuasion has ever had much of an appreciation for any economic activity other than digging dirt out of the ground and selling it.

[spinex]

I suspect the difference between Aus and US labour rates may have more to do with it than CASA. Light aircraft are expensive beasties to move to market as well, with both the Americas and Africa being closer to the US than Aus, it makes sense.

[Chocks Away]

Sad to see another idea started here head o/s like the Sarich Engine...

Regarding Indian's, this from their own:
New Delhi: Almost one-third of Indians are "utterly corrupt" and half are "borderline", the outgoing head of the country's corruption watchdog has said...
20 percent of Indians were "honest, regardless of the temptations."

[thorn bird]

Pete old mate, your comment, a Tad racist?
Not to worry, what's the old saying? "never give a sucker an even break"?.

The poor Indians bought a pup.

Not because there was something wrong with the product, an incredible amount of Australian ingenuity, engineering excellence, and just "plane" passion went into producing a very saleable product, despite the best attempts of our supposed regulator to destroy it.

Regulatory fatigue defeated any chance of it being viable and remaining in Australian hands.
The Indians knew a good thing when they saw it, it was a very good thing. What they didn't see was a bureaucracy even more corrupt and incompetent than in their own country.

Pennies dropped now, "Oh!! corruption exists in Australia, we didn't realize, sorry, we'll be off now" and once again aviation business departs Australia.

[Stanwell]

Mahindra's motives for buying into GippsAero were raised in these pages last year.
I think somebody is saying right now... "Told ya so!".

[Radix]

............

[Sunfish]

CASA is in part responsible for Gipps Aeros demise - that is from one of the founders as told to me personally during a tour of the plant.

The issue is time to market and CASA bull**** cost them at least Two years.

[Squawk7700]

And here I was thinking I could score myself an Engineering job with GippsAero down at Latrobe


The "engineering" part is effectively complete so they only need low skilled process workers to make all the parts en mass.


I recently found a wealth of information when I browsed the listings for the Melbourne Supreme Court. Perhaps you could too?

[sms777]

Mahindra
The brand that obviously could not make it's mark on the ground in OZ not alone above it.
I will not miss it.

[yr right]

Simple really. Move to the states then congress will allow them to be purchased . Stay here and they won't. Remember the Aussie made troop carrier. They done the exact same thing. Sad really.
Cheers

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I'm
Not
Doing
It
Again

:E

[ANCPER]

You hit the nail on the head, if you can't dig it up or grow it Australia isn't interested. We're a rentier country of vested interest.

[Alloverit]

And how much did the Government tip in to assist the delay ? Millions and millions !!! New bigger hangars, promises promises,all lies.

[jas24zzk]

It was always going to happen.
Production costs (any industry) in this country are far beyond what the cost to market will bear.

Needless bumpf satisfying pen pushers is driving up costs beyond belief. The paying customer is no longer bearing the cost, and sales are suffering.

As stated, much of the Airvan is produced in the US already. It makes sense to assemble and market it from there.

Mahindra have merely maintained the Latrobe facility to meet contractual obligations in the sale.

Times up!

Oh sorry...i forgot everyone should be earning 100k per year for 4 hours per day actual production

[TBM-Legend]

Building things too far from the real markets is very costly. Australia has become a very expensive place to do business. All inputs from cost of labour, costs of Govt [CASA etc etc], and other issues including shipping and ferrying create a non-competitive financial situation. Even Boeing moved to South Carolina for the B787-10 and other bits to save on labour costs and other taxes from Washington...[non-union too]

Australia cannot compete on a global market [and our domestic market is minuscule] in any manufactured..:hmm:

[Al E. Vator]

...and yet if you want to look at high labour costs look at:

Sweden: Essentially a socialist state yet they have SAAB
Switzerland: Very, very expensive to operate there yet they have Pilatus
Japan: Mitsubishi (the new RJ)
Canada: Bombardier
even New Zealand: Fletcher

In a country as vast and aircraft-reliant as ours, the fact we have no homegrown aircraft industry and have to import the likes of Pilatus' from Switzerland is appalling.

I guess that means the end of the re-emergence of the Nomad? Not that that aircraft was ever a stellar example of what Australia could produce but the concept was sound and there is still a significant requirement for sturdy aircraft in this category (which is why the Twin Otter is back in production).

And the original GA8 was also a sound concept and, if the above is a done deal, will hopefully go on to flourish in its own right.

[Sunfish]

TBM, we can and do compete in manufacturing in the high value added sector. Where we cant compete is in volume manufacture of low value add items.

There is world wide over production of cars for the simple reason that a car industry underpins the other critical sectors of an advanced economy.

I know quite a few guys who are doing very well thank you, but of course they don't bleat to the media about how much money they are making.

As for GA, they were cut down by government indifference and CASA bastardry plus a good helping of USA industry "protection" anyone remember what happened to Victa? The GA labour force were cheap - moccasin wearing denizens of Moe many of them who were glad of a job.

The Government indifference part is rather the problem of "received wisdom" - of which the public service is full of:

Some examples:

"There is only room for Two domestic airlines and One international one in Australia".

"Australia cannot build cars because we have no economy of scale".

"Australia cannot manufacture aircraft".

"Australia cannot manufacture ships, tanks, missiles, defence systems and submarines".

Of course in defence of the received wisdom, anyone who has the temerity to propose, let alone challenge the received wisdom is destroyed if possible and any successful demonstration of actual production and performance is explained away as an aberration and any failure is pounced on.

The net result is that Australian industry rarely gets far enough down the learning curve to profit from hard won experience. The "Nomad II" would have been a cracker, as would the next generation submarine after the Collins class. The MEKO frigates were built on time and on cost at Williamstown as were the Oliver Hazard Perry class destroyers - which were better quality than the American version.

CAC turned out better quality engine components than GE, including turbine blades. There are other companies that have bettered anything the yanks and Europeans have made, the problem is mindset in the public service and a financial system that rewards real estate speculation rather than manufacturing.

[TBM-Legend]

Sunfish, many of your statements are partially correct. The upgrades to the Perry Class FFG's did not go well. Budgeted for six ships and only produced four until time and money ran out! I agree that the Governments of the day Fed/Sate/Local don't have a clue what is going on...

[aeromariner]

sunfish, the demise of the victa airtourer was through a falling out in the Richardson family which owned Victa. As to CASA and GippyAero, it was bad somedays, but the "Founder" wouldn't dare mention the CASA backed program which saved his company would he? This would also probably be the founder who invented aerodynamics. The bit about production in Seattle looks like (yet) another fishing episode from Mahindra

[Andy_RR]

TBM, we can and do compete in manufacturing in the high value added sector.

I'd argue we don't compete even on the high value-added sector. Most of what we still have is through inertia and a sense of pride and patriotism, This is gradually wearing off and over time we will see attrition rather than growth even in this sector.

[Sunfish]

Andy, I visited quite a few competitive companies as a case officer for a government department. Confidentiality prevents me from revealing names. However the one linked below is no secret. There are many more, quite a lot these days in mining services - think how do you automate changing a wheel on a huge mining truck? An Australian company builds robots that do it. Another Australian company showed up GE in the machining of Inconel.

The chief characteristic of competitive companies is that they shut up about it in public.

ANCA - The World's Most Flexible Tool Grinder (http://www.anca.com/Home)

[Andy_RR]

ANCA - The World's Most Flexible Tool Grinder (http://www.anca.com/Home)

I'm sure you might see a lot of stuff in your travels, but ANCA was one company I had in mind when I suggested it was patriotism/national loyalty of the founders that kept them in this country. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but not 100% wrong.

I know there are a lot of very small companies around doing very clever things, but in the current climate they won't grow before they bugger off overseas.

I spent yesterday evening with an entrepreneur and very clever engineer, who was bemoaning the fact that mechanical design skills were in very short supply in the country. We have basically allowed the nation to shrink to below the critical mass in engineering/industrialization. Anyone with any high end skills disappears overseas. I came back to Australia in '08 after more than a decade away. To be honest, it was a bit of a mistake to come back. I see a move away again on the horizon at some point. :(

[Sunfish]

Fair enough Andy, you have more current experience than I do. The mining technology sector though seems to be doing quite well.

[aeromariner]

Sunfish ..... Remind me again ..... How long did you work in the Aviation Industry in Gippsland and in what capacity?

[Fantome]

Interesting link to ANCA . . .. . .
bright buggers , . . .. . that's the
long and the short of it.. ..



http://www.anca.com/getattachment/About-ANCA/History/Two-Pats-with-First-CNC.jpg.aspx?width=300&height=378
ANCA was founded in 1974 by Pat McCluskey and Pat Boland in Melbourne, Australia, where the company still has its headquarters. Although the two engineers had different backgrounds - one academic and one technical and trade - their skills and experience were complementary, and they were like-minded in their drive to produce world class Computer Numerical Controls.

[Squawk7700]

Sunfish ..... Remind me again ..... How long did you work in the Aviation Industry in Gippsland and in what capacity?

He didn't, but because he once spoke to one of the founders, he now knows as much as someone that has worked there for years.

I also have a close link to Gippy Aero, probably as close as Sunfish's. Back in 1991 I went to a NYE BBQ in Gippsland and the man that owned the farm is one of the founders of Gippy Aero and he told me lots of information about the company.

[aeromariner]

Nah he would have been the Father of one of the founders and sadly Roly died suddenly last year

[spinex]

From the Cowra Guardian; (Another article said bringing the Aircruiser, previously a 4 seat Victa design, into production, was part of the deal). The cynic in me fully expects to see the Hyosing Wild Pony suddenly appear on the Chinese market and Brumby to fade into oblivion.

"Brumby Aircraft are expecting to increase their workforce in Cowra fourfold, after landing a lucrative 40-year contract with China’s Aviation Industry Corporation.
The joint venture will see the company sell 280 aircraft to China, a further 80 aircraft to Australia and New Zealand, while establishing a flight-training facility for international pilots in Cowra.
Brumby Aircraft Director Paul Goard said the deal was an opportunity for Brumby to greatly increase its penetration within the Australian aviation industry, as well as target additional international markets.
“Our company is leading the way in aircraft design, manufacture and export. With the cash injection from this contract with AVIC, we will expand our marketing reach into New Zealand and then look further afield,” Mr Goard said.
“The small aircraft that we produce are by far the fastest selling sector of the aviation market, particularly in the US and Europe.”
Mr Goard said the company has approached a Chinese airline with a view to establishing a flight training facility in Cowra.
“This will not only expand employment opportunities at Cowra Airport, it will inject substantial funds into Cowra township, as up to 30 Chinese pilots at any one time will be under instruction,” Mr Goard said.
“The Cowra factory will remain as an R&D facility to develop the four-seat Victa aircraft. We are excited about the enormous growth prospects for our business and our home town. We are expecting to quadruple our staff in Cowra.”
A delegation from the giant Chinese aircraft manufacturer, AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) signed the contract with Brumby at a ceremony at Parliament House in Sydney attended by Deputy Premier and Minister for Trade and Investment Andrew Stoner on Thursday, July 31.
See your ad here (http://www.cowraguardian.com.au/advertise/)

NSW Deputy Premier Andrew Stoner, Federal Member for Hume Angus Taylor and NSW Member for Burrinjuck Katrina Hodgkinson have congratulated Cowra’s Brumby Aircraft on the sale.
Mr Stoner said the deal was a vote of confidence in Brumby and regional NSW.
“This is a fantastic deal that will help not only create local jobs and grow the local economy, but will also improve our State’s ties with one of our largest trading partners,” Mr Stoner said.
Mr Taylor said the lucrative deal would put Brumby Aircraft on the world stage.
“I am often speaking about the enormous opportunities for Australian companies in fast growing Asian markets. This is where we see our trading future - in Asia and particularly in China - and I am delighted a local firm is stepping up to show other Australian companies the way forward,” Mr Taylor said.
Ms Hodgkinson congratulated Brumby Aircraft on what would be the start of a massive period of growth.
“This agreement means that Brumby will double the size of the factory in Cowra. The design and some of the manufacture of the aircraft will remain at Brumby’s Cowra base, which is an excellent outcome for the local economy, creating more jobs for the region,” Ms Hodgkinson said."

[Sunfish]

Aero, all I know is what I was told by one of the founders on the day I flew in about morning tea time. We got to talking and I was given a tour of the place. Other stuff, Ansett, CAC and as an engineering consultant to government.

I had the honour of visiting Henry Millicer to discuss his later designs, sadly no finance was available then or now.

[601]

Australia has a Farmers Mindset, not a fine engineering one
Some of the most innovative products produced in Oz have been invented by farmers.

[HarleyD]

OSHKOSH: Mahindra floats US assembly for rebranded Airvan
By: STEPHEN TRIMBLEMILWAUKEE Source: Flightglobal.com 13 hours ago
Mahindra Aerospace showed up at EAA Airventure with a new brand for the GA8 and GA10 Airvan utility aircraft, new amphibious floats and new interest in finding a US-based assembly site.

The GA-8 and GA-10 brands were inherited by Mahindra by its acquisition of Australia’s Gippsland Aeronautics. Mahindra has now dropped the GA designation, rebranding the single-engined pistons as the Airvan 8 and Airvan 10.
Mahindra has already delivered nearly 300 Airvan 8s from a factory in Australia. As the Airvan 10 nears certification later this year, Mahindra is considering a new manufacturing plan for the Airvan 8, says Arvind Mehra, executive director and global chief executive.
About 90% of the Airvan 8 are made in the USA, pre-assembled at a Mahindra facility in Seattle and then shipped to Australia for final assembly, so it would be possible to reduce the price by moving production to the USA.
“That’s our long-term strategy,” Mehra says.
Mehra adds that the location should be within an existing aviation cluster.


1. Mahindra is a majority shareholder, not the owner of what was GippslandAeronautics

2. I am not sure if a purchase is the same as an inheritance

3. GA 8 is not a brand, it is a model designation, as on the TCDS, Airvan is a brand name

4. It is possible that that 90% of the Airvan's materials and vendor items are imported from the USA, it has a US engine, prop and avionics and instruments and all the Alclad and fasteners are likely from the US as well, just like most aircraft regardless of where they are actually built. No aircraft unique components are manufactured outside Aus as far as i am aware.

5. The aircraft once they have been completely manufactured, assembled, completed and test flown at the factory at YLTV are knocked down for shipping. US customer aircraft are shipped to the USA and assembled in Washington state near Seattle for delivery to new owners. Not the other way round.

6. It would make sense to do some additional work in the USA which doeas not value add significantly with labour, but would decrease shipping costs, e.g. Insstall engine, prop and instruments in the US without sending them to Aus first.

7. Mahindra as majority owner has produced less than 100 aircraft since they assumed control of the company from Gippsland Aeronautics who produced the balance in their own right.

Shoddy journalism, misquotes and misunderstanding reported as hot info. Dont believe everything you read.

I have also done a factory tour and spoken with both the founders, and the Chief Designer. I have also toured Piper at Vero Beach with the Production Manager and Diamond with the owner. Diamond have their own cafeteria where you workers can have a beer at lunchtime, very civilized.

FAA is absolutely easier and quicker to deal with than CASA. there are many helpful individuals within CASA, but also some bloody minded, pig headed dills with a vastly inflated sense of self importance and an insistance that everything MUST be done to their interpretation of the Regs. One of those out balances 9 good guys. If GA now mahindra was a US based company they would have built THOUSANDS of Airvans by now.

Fantasic local product and great people deserve better.

Maybe Mr Mehra will give it a leg up. Lets hope so.

HD

[aeromariner]

Well Sunfish, you will just have to learn what a pinch of salt is and realise that managers (particularly in Australia) whinge a lot. They also tend to forget about government grants about thirty seconds after the last dollar of said grant is spent. I'm afraid the unpalatable truth is that the government has poured millions and millions into the australian industry without much to show for it. And of course nobody ever does them managers a good turn ...Did you get told the story about the Airvan seats costing zillions to develop whereas in actual fact the FAA tested the gippy seats in the FAA laboratory in Oklahoma City for nothing? Yes, the certificating authorities can be pains, and CASA does not have the correct charter in terms of a manufacturing industry, but one FAA office had the motto "hound em pound em ground em we're not happy till you're not happy" and if you really want to see some fireworks just go to any FAA cert office and watch the set to between the ACO and the MIDO. The FAA type certificates for Gippy products were handled pretty well, but still took appreciable time and effort. Nobody had a discussion with Henry ... never. You just sat there and had your ears chewed off ... in a totally charming way of course

[aeromariner]

HD... that would be a tour in the military sense ...........

[Stanwell]

HarleyD & aeromariner,


Thank you for those posts. Well put, both of you.


Cheers.

[Sunfish]

I stand by what I said. Henry didn't chew my ears off either. There is nothing that cannot be built in Australia if the mindset is corrected. I am sick of this totally defeatist "received wisdom" promulgated by the public service economists at the behest of commodity producers (price takers) in mining and farming.

We can and do make high value added elaborately transformed manufactures in Australia, I visited over 200 companies doing just that in my time with Government, they don't whinge, they shut up and make money despite "high labour costs" and all the other BS spouted by ill informed, lazy, know nothing commentators.

Here's an example Aero, around 1990 I was wheeled into a VP's office at GE Commercial engines division in Cincinatti and asked if Hawker would like a ten percent share of the new engine they were developing for the B777(?) we were building F404's successfully as well as suppplying GE with T700 frames, cases, turbine blades and other componetry.

GE wanted no more than Ten partners, you pay your tenth of development costs and you get the section of the engine to manufacture for life. GE's development budget was Five billion. That project would have provided at least a thousand jobs at Fishermans bend for decades.

I didn't even put the offer to management because I knew they couldn't finance it, partly because the Bankers don't want to understand manufacturing, the tax system penalises manufacturing compared to property development and the wankers in Canberra would tell you we couldn't possibly be competitive anyway. At the same time as I was contemplating this offer, assclowns like Alan Bond and similar folk were speculating in the billions, producing nothing of any value as the darlings of the share market.


As for the car companies, the real reason they aren't manufacturing in Australia is that our Government , now dominated by miners and farmers, doesn't want them here and plenty of other governments do.

Here some new information for you Aero, "economies of scale" are dead. They have been for Thirty years. The whole Kanban system and automation is designed to make the economic order quantity equal One unit. Frthermore, Australias relatively low volumes made the Australian component manufacturers masters of quick change tooling - they had to be. the result of that was that companies like Nippon Denso channelled a lot of short run low volume production to Australia because we could do it faster.

Did you know that Hawkers at Fishermans bend developed double cut plunge grinding of turbine blade roots? It doubled production rates and improved quality out of sight. GE forced us to give them the technology, they have a habit of being technology thieves almost as bad as the Israelis. There are whole swags of technologies where we compete very successfully internationally despite the obstacles the effing Government puts in our way.

Did you know that despite "free trade" agreements America viciously protects its manufacturing base? Mahindra will get the red carpet treatment from Washington State and the U.S. Federal Government for bringing the production line to America, back hander subsidies and grants included.

The reason we don't have more manufacturing in Australia is learned helplessness. The expert keep telling you it can't be done and are determined to prove themselves correct.

[Fantome]

Nobody had a discussion with Henry ... never. You just sat there and had your ears chewed off ... in a totally charming way of course





thank you for that and the recollection prompted. Henry used to come down out of the design office at Milperra to have a chat with the young apprentices working away drilling and deburring. He would tell us
about his early days in Poland . . learning to fly on a Hanriot . .. and how Arthur Bage head designer at Percivals took all the credit for Henry's work on the Provost.

[HarleyD]

Sunfish, I am embarrased that i must wholeheartedly endorse your last comments.

HD

[yr right]

Sunfish our car industry was killed of for one reason. The cost of labour when unskilled labour was between 70 to 90k a year. The unions priced them self out of work. Once ford pulled the pin the others had no option than to do the same. A couple of great Aussie invention was power steering a small company in Sydney held world wide patents when refuse ing to sell them to TRW they just brought the company and got the lot and the electric fan produced and in vented by Davis Craig now on every car in the world. How ever they never patented it sad it that is. We can produce anything and every thing we just need political will power to do it.

[HarleyD]

Yr right, yr only half right.

Unions are not the demons that can be blamed for the demise of the Australain car industry. look to the top of the organization, they will outsource to sierra leone and use slave if they can squeeze the margin a a little more. They cut R&D first of all then hack the heart out of the beast. Forget 'the Australian family sedan, globalization means we will all drive korean designed, thai built cars untill the chinese get their act together. Then we will be driving crappy chinese pastiches. We can only have a car industry here IF WE WANT IT. If you want a locally designed and developed car that meets our expectations and requirements, then buy one, many people do pay a little more for the optimized product. If you are happy with a Great wall ( or perish the thought a Mahindra) then you have cast your vote to kill local manufacturing capability regardless of verbalized position.

The rapacious globalized auto industry makes decisions based on more than local wages, otherwise Mercedes and VW would have disappeared many years ago. I would also dispute that these manufacturers regard their staff as 'unskilled labour'.

The plastic pickup/ ute tray liner was invented here in Aus by a guy who had to fight to get it accepted at all, and then had it ripped of by a globalized auto manufacturer despite careful and strategic business planning. At least he got a bit of the cherry on the way past. He also own a Mahindra as it happens.

We are fundamentally low volume high value manufactures who are flexible and innovative. We will never be competitive with Hyundai, and should not compare our industry(s) and market to those of the lowest common denominator.

We need more than just the will to do things, what we need here is a mature government that can accept that a local manufacturing industry has direct and indirect benefits for the country and is what keeps us from being by definition a 3rd world counrty. While our sycophantic defence forces for one will do almost anything to buy from our military partners(s?) spending many Billions just to be in the club, and then not invest locally, ignore, or worse ridicule, local products it is clear the cultural cringe is alive and well at the highest levels.

This is certainly not the case in the USA where local industry is PROUDLY supported, there are plenty of high value low volume manufacturers in the aviation industry in the USA where these industries are fostered by government and agencies, even if the imported (e.g. Australian ) products are superior.

All the will in the world is no use if when you have made your product there is no local support/customer base. in that instance why not move your company or manufacturing facility to where the market is? This has happened many times in our inglorious manufacturing history, and is doomed to happen again.

This is even worse under the current government who believe that manufacturing industry should be euthenased, we all need to take a pay cut, tighten our belts and wait for Gina Swineheart to dig up some more of the country, with highly paid unskilled union labour no doubt.

The whole thing is much more complicated of course, but charity begins at home, we should expect our elected representatives of all colours to respect the desire of the majority of Australians who really do want a local manufacuring industry, even though their buying habits do not accurately reflect this desire.


HD

[Sunfish]

Agree with Harley D.

The "yes Minister" script says it all - Sir Humphrey: "Minister, this project must not be allowed to succeed without our help!".

And sadly in Australia, help is not allowed so the project must instead be killed.

I guess in a way we should be thankful. The successful international local manufacturers I know of don't have any local competition, because nobody believes what they do is even possible. For them, they focus on beating Siemens, Mitsubishi, Sandvik, GE and similar international competitors, and a lot of the time they do.

The problem for us is that their only tax effective exit strategy is to be enough of an annoyance that their big international competitor buys them, takes their technology overseas and shuts them down. You walk away with Fifty million or so and lie on a beach.

I can think of a few companies that went that way - the competitor to helicoil, a medical plastics company and the first gaming company that successfully produced an almost impossible to counterfeit poker chip. I predict ANCA will be bought out and so will our beloved Ozrunways.

I wrote a paper on the subject for Government suggesting based on my experiences that no Australian manufacturing company could or should survive unless it was internationally competitive and that the key proof of international competitiveness was the ability to export. I then suggested that change was needed in our treatment of exports, export related expenses and export income taxation.

...And it was promptly buried deep.

[yr right]

Gm and ford both closed down car industries in other country's at the same time they did aust. They have strengthen there in country being the USA in manufacting then exporting those cars to us here and around the world. As for ford however they will continue there design sudio in vic. If you can't see that 70 to 90k for un skilled work isn't to much to be paid we'll I'm sorry you will be having what's happened. Btw that's more than most lame get yet they have to sign there life away each day.

Cheers

[HarleyD]

Yr right, yr rong

It is not nearly so simplistic as your union bashing solution suggests.

As someone deeply embedded in the Australian maunfacturing industry I cannot accept your facile claim that this is all to be blamed on those who actually do the work. It is much more complex and issue than you blythley elucidate.

Sunfish has a deeper understanding, although i would suggest he is as much confused as to the WHY behind the scenes as I am.

I for one do not earn the $90k you suggest is the norm, my wife wishes that i did, but sadly that does not reflect average wages, or even salaries in manufacturing.

I close friend of mine, a specialist tradesman, was recently retrenched from GMH and neither was he in the order of magnitude you suggest. He was a part of the R&D team which has gone bye bye.

As Australains we are our own worst enemy when it comes to capitalizing on innovation.

R&D is the key to innovative products and manufacturing. It is actively discouraged in this country, not just unrewarded.

Thanks for your opinions and participation inthis thread, atbleast it gets some of these common misconceptions out in the prunish arena.

Cheers HD

[Andy_RR]

While the unions haven't helped the situation here in Australia, yr right is half right when it comes to wages and salaries. My brother who worked in oil and gas says a very recent survey puts Australian engineering remuneration at the top of the world heap - even in the resources industry we are uncompetitive.

But, what's driving the wages/salaries cost is our inflated housing costs and real estate costs in general. The single largest day to day expense for the entire population has been inflated to the moon by the financial sector - it's no surprise then that our banking giants are giants (by "capitalization") even among the world rankings. We have sold our domestic souls to the financiers and are paying the price for it. House prices rise and the lemmings all feel "wealthier" and cheer it on despite the fact that their existence costs have just risen... :hmm:

Of course, the bureaucratic overhead of employing people is also high - compulsory this and compulsory that - but many countries suffer similarly.

The government is attempting to encourage the nation to exploit our competitive strengths. The reality is that, mineral wealth aside, we have none and mostly because we don't choose to be competitive.

So, the country with one of the lowest population densities has the highest housing costs; with the longest coastline imports most of its seafood; with the most abundant natural resources has the highest energy costs; with one of the largest collective savings and investment accounts needs foreign investment to develop.

We really are a country of contradictions, and not it a good way.

[Sunfish]

For once i agree with Andy RR. and will speculate a little further based on my own experience.

Firstly it's not "labour costs" that are killing industry, its "employment costs".

Let me give you some examples.

"Workers Compensation" this is a giant rort and every manager I know has a story of rorting. I won't bore you with mine unless asked.

"Industrial relations law" I had a retrenched worker fill out a form the size of a small bit of toilet paper alleging he was paid the wrong wage for Sixteen years. This resulted in a Federal workplace audit that cost me six weeks of management time and Five thousand dollars.

"Occupational Health and Safety" While I am a fervent believer in the application of this, it is now a new home for oxygen thieves.

"Anti Discrimination Law" Enough said.

"Taxation" - which doesn't differentiate between income streams based on risk and stability. Why do farmers get "drought" aid but manufacturers don't? Then of course there is the dreaded fringe benefits tax which makes things like overseas travel on business a real pain. Then of course there is taxation disincentives to do with entrepreneurial matters.

"Infrastructure" allow energy suppliers to price gouge and every other little bit of government to do the same.

"Cost of living"? we have world class rent seekers such as Coles and Woolworths driving that.

"Cost of housing"? We have overseas investors driving that.


That is just the start of my list. I'm sure we could add more.

The actual wages? Not an issue in my opinion. Australians individually are pretty efficient and smart workers they are much more multi skilled and innovative than Americans and not hide bound like Europeans, nor as venal and criminal as some Asians. Our individual productivity is high.

Public Holidays? We have less than America.

"working hours"? We work more hours than Americans.

My own experience of high tech manufacturing is that we are very competitive, but lack of patient capital and taxation mean that the best strategy for someone like the Ozrunways boys - Shagpile and all, is to build their business to the point where someone like Jeppesen buys it and takes it offshore.

To put that another way, once Ozrunways gets to a certain size in number of employees, all the additional Australian regulatory costs I've mentioned will expand exponentially and destroy profitability unless it goes offshore.

[aeromariner]

Well except for the Canberra, Mirage, F18, kiowa, nomad, blackhawk/seahawk, PC9, industrial grants to Gippsland Aeronautics, and many other light aircraft manufacturers, generous discounts on property and dwelling charges at airfields and numerous other sponsorships .... except for that what has the Guvment ever done for us?

[Andy_RR]

almost all of that list is giving with one hand and taking with the other, aeromariner...

[aeromariner]

Sorry Andy its not. Most of these things saw the Guvment picking up the bill. Whatever the Guvment then took away they got charged straight back next month. In the 70's some of the industry was funded out of defence, simply on the basis of it being an industry in residence.

[Andy_RR]

The Guvmint picking up the tab is the same as you, I and the rest of us. Unfortunately, Australians like to deceive themselves in this regard.

[Sunfish]

Aeromariner, I happen to know a little about the PC 9 and the awarding of that contract. It was not " a goverment gift to the aviation industry" it was exactly the reverse.

CAC had designed a training aircraft to RAAF specifications called the "Wamira" the specifications called for, among other things, air conditioning, side by side tandem seating and the undercarriage drop test was from some unbelievable height. The RAAF swore blind that this was what they must have..

Hawker pt up the PC7 and the PC9, neither of which met the RAAF specifications.

The RAAF advice to Government was that their preference was Wamira first, PC7 second and they did not want the PC9 at all, but would understand that political considerations may govern the final choice.

At the deciding meeting to brief the Minister Bomber Beazley simply stated "your getting the PC9" and that was all. Bankstown and Sydney vs. Fishermans Bend, and Melbourne. No contest. This is from a participant at the meeting whose name is a number.

CAC folded as they had bet the farm on winning this project and was taken over by Hawkers.

The PC9 was deemed unusable as a basic trainer for ab initio students, they put the dux of the class in one and he came out white.

Some gift. Same as the other gifts - all poisoned. But then again some guys got nice trips to Switzerland instead of FIshermans bend.

[aeromariner]

Sunfish you are right ...you do know only a little about the PC9. Wamira was designed by a consortium called AAC of which CAC was only a member. The design side was led by Alan Smith from GAF.

[porch monkey]

In all fairness to Sunfish, that doesn't change his point one little bit........:confused:

[Sunfish]

The point Porch Monkey is that the Government is still going to spend X million on a particular project. They can either spend it at home or overseas. However spending it at home does not generate trips to St Louis, Los Angeles, Seattle, Toulouse and London for a large number of public servants and defence officers.

Overseas companies know this and one of their chief marketing strategies is "we are having a conference on XXXX at Paris, Montreal, Nice, San Francisco and you must attend."

Makes Bankstown and Fishermans Bend look undesirable doesn't it?

The money is still "wasted" look at the Seasprite program.

[LeadSled]

Makes Bankstown and Fishermans Bend look undesirable doesn't it?

Folks,
Many years ago, (1970's) a good mate of mine was head of Defense Sales for the old AWA, based at Ashfield, NSW.
They had a range of comms gear that was sold to the poms, and several other European military, and quite extensively in the middle east.
They sold nothing to the Australian Army, no trips in it, the old Ashfield Travel Lodge on Parramatta Rd. couldn't compete with the Intercon. in Dallas etc.
Tootle pip!!

[aeromariner]

The point is that the Guvment knew exactly what was going on. Let me give you just one aspect ....the ECS for the cockpit. I can't even remember the numbers, but the cockpit temperature had to be pulled down from some extraordinary high temperature (aircraft heat soaked in blazing sun uncovered on tarmac)to deliciously comfortable in the time it took an FI to get his seatbelt on. Why?? nobody knew. Why not put it in the shade? not acceptable... why not hook a kelvinator (GPU) up to it ..... not acceptable. It wasn't a fighter likely to be deployed (ironically they are kept in hardened shelters). It was just a trainer .... But that ECS meant that all standard PT6 driven PTOs were unsuitable ...RAAF ... simple pay for a new one.... and the ejection seat (or as it was known the injection seat). It seemed to go in and out of the spec on a weekly basis. All of this being paid by the guvment. Of course the competition steps in and says the PC9 purchase will stop all this nonsense and, remember the Bomber was trying to eke out the defence dollar. Later on another project I had learnt the lesson. I suggested that (on this heat soak issue) we build the RAAF 20,000 sqft fully equipped hangers for the new plane, on all the bases and as the vitriol flew across the room, "18,000 for the plane and 2,000 for the fully equipped boozer I would add" ... karma would descend

[aeromariner]

Would this be the same AWA which had an office on just about every military and civil aerodrome, or are we talking about a different one?

[aeromariner]

The PC9 was deemed unusable as a basic trainer for ab initio students, they put the dux of the class in one and he came out whiteSo that would mean that one of the world's premier advanced trainers is still unsuitable for training pilots?

[porch monkey]

Sunny, I got your point. My reply was directed at aero, as i don't think he grasped yours......

[thorn bird]

Ah, but aero, consider that this is Australia, not the rest of the world!

[Sunfish]

Aero mariner, the PC9 is for advanced training not including Ab Initio training.

[Captain Dart]

...however, I seem to remember that an 'all-through' course, i.e. ab initio to advanced, was trialled on the PC 9. As one before with the Macchi, it was not particularly successful and the concept was dropped.

[aeromariner]

Sunfish, Try beechcraft T-6 Texan II

[Sunfish]

Aeromariner, I wouldn't know. My comments are based on what I was told by Sqn Ldrs and Group Captains who were involved in the selection process for the trainer.

[aeromariner]

And this is what it comes down to. Not the Guvment, sadly not the unfortunate shareholders who have stumped up cash for private ventures, but the managers who have made some hopeless decisions. Managers who wouldn't listen to details be they technical or financial, but ploughed on regardless, or worse reckoned they knew more than the experts. The Nomad (N1) was a single engined aircraft designed around the PT6 until the RAAF managers got involved. Once again the injection seat was in and out of the design (the sloping frame forward of the wing remained in the design). The aeroplane was then rushed into production while the deficiencies obstinately remained uncured on 01 and 02. This sort of business has gone on up until the present day.

As to Mahindra and Australia, do you think the former Shareholders in Gippsland Aeronautics made a bomb from the sale? In terms of the press report which started the thread, I think the reporter sort of mixed up two themes. One has been the age old problem of how to rationalise shipping of aircraft parts from global suppliers and where to nail them all together - that debate will continue. The second has been Mahindra's propensity for shopping around for a "production facility" eyeing off where the best "inducements" can be found. In Australia, Mahindra has been mentioned in connection with Bundaberg, Toowoomba, Sunshine Coast - all the usual suspects. Overseas? who knows?

[BPA]

Don't forget the Government also tried to sell a Tandam version of the A10 Wamira to the UK and it was to be known as the A20. When the UK selected the Embraer Tucano, that pretty much sealed the fate of the A10/20 Wamira.

[aeromariner]

BPA ...No ..... Not the Guvment ....AAC tried to sell the UK a tandem version. The Guvment didn't decide things like whether the A10 would be side by side seating.... it was Ronny RAAF. So then if you want to get into the export market, you need to go with the flow and for some unknown reason, the rest of the world were building trainers which according to the RAAF were impossible for instruction - ie they had tandem seating -so AAC proposed the A20 to the RAF. There were a few exceptions to tandem seating for new designs but they were OC aircraft where widening the fuselage and jamming in side by side ejection seats was the Quick and Dirty solution, but the tandem solution for the Harrier T2 (before the days of any stability augmentation) must have been a clue.

[Seagull V]

I see that at AirVenture 2014 Mahindra exhibited an Airvan on Wipline 3450 amphibious floats. Strangely there is nothing on the Gippsaero website about this project.
In one media article the Mahindra CEO is quoted as saying “Wipaire Inc. has begun feasibility testing on the aircraft with floats, and upon a successful outcome, a certification program will be launched later in 2014.”
In another article an engineer from Wipaire is quoted as saying “The configuration has not yet been determined, but the floats will likely be larger than the 206 floats, which have a certified weight limit of 3,800 pounds. The max gross weight for the Airvan is 4,200 pounds.”
Wipline floats for the Airvan have been promised for many, many years. Why all the mucking about? Is there some reluctance on behalf of Mahindra or perhaps Wipaire to offer the Airvan on floats.

[aeromariner]

You need a customer. The Airvan on 3450s will probably weigh 2650 lb as a straight seaplane and 2850 lb as an amphib with TOWs of 4200 lbs and 4000 lbs respectively. Or around about 1550 lb or 1150lb disposable. Still worthwhile especially for the seaplane, but you would need to work the financials pretty closely.

[aeromariner]

As to the rumours that started this thread, Regional airport turnaround | Latrobe Valley Express (http://www.latrobevalleyexpress.com.au/story/2494144/regional-airport-turnaround/?cs=1462)
would seem to indicate that the "auction" for the GippsAero "should I stay or should I go" (you could write a song around that) was won by Vic Gov and LTV to the tune of 2 million