Unrested for flight, or take a sleeping pill?

[meatlover]

I find that since majority of the users are very active on this side of the forum, and many are very experienced in the industry, it would be a good place to ask this question.

Like many, I struggle with sleep. Oddly enough, I prefer flying all night, I hate waking up early, and actually am unable to sleep early at night even when I am tired.

Which is healthier for the body? To get a few hours of sleep, wake up early being not well rested, complete my flight and catch up on sleep the following night? OR to take a low dose of a sleeping pill or equivalent, and sleep well that night for the early morning flight?

Your opinions and advice are much appreciated.
Thank guys

[Intruder]

If you can't do it without sleeping pills, don't do it!

[despegue]

Melatonine helps me and my biorithm from time to time.
Another good sleeping aid is Unisom, which I only take when desperate for sleep and when commercially positioning long haul.

But the best method to fall asleep is still...a good portion of sex:ok:

( or fall asleep reading the FOM part A:} )

[Denti]

To be honest, Part A is probably the best sleeping aid, if not some light workout about an hour before sleep.

If i cannot sleep enough without pills i have to call in as unfit to fly next morning, of course that could lead to problems further down the line if i do it every early reporting day. However i cannot be fired for that in my company.

[meatlover]

Thanks all for the responses.

Despegue,
I am actually waiting for the next stock of Melatonine from GNC, I am considering giving it a shot.

Denti,
I've had this problem since I can remember.
It is impossible for me to sleep early at night unless I have a fixed routine of doing it for days.

I am just trying to figure out which method would be healthier for the body.

[parabellum]

When people can't sleep they may lie there getting more and more agitated by the fact they are not sleeping. It might help to know that lying down in a cool, darkened, quiet room, resting can be 75% as good as sleep, so it doesn't do to get hung up on not sleeping if you are in bed, mentally relax and you may find you drop off anyway!.

[OK4Wire]

This may sound a bit, well, punk, but sometimes I use one of the many meditation apps. There's one that allows you to choose between a "day-time sleep" (30 mins) and a night time sleep which is longer.

Even when I am not overly tired, 30 mins of the meditation app helps me feel better.

[Capt Claret]

mentally relax and you may find you drop off anyway!.

Used to work when younger and lack of sleep didn't seem to be so debilitating.

TMy DAME was quite happy to prescribe Stilnox, saying it's not as good as real (natural) sleep but better than no sleep.

[DocMartin]

I also have a really hard time going to bed early. Hot bath, big glass of water, then I read the economist. Fascinating, yet soothingly sleep inducing. Works 80% of the time.

[stilton]

I have found Melatonin to be very helpful, especially when dealing with big time zone changes.


The last thing I will do at my age is a 'large glass of water' before bed, unless I want to spend most of the night (or day) going to the bathroom..

[darkroomsource]

The body needs very little sleep, if any.

It's the brain that needs the sleep.

If you don't get the right sleep, you won't be thinking as well as when you do get the right sleep.

1. stay away from electronic devices as much as you can - reading from an ipad or computer can actually increase your allertness and inability to sleep by a large factor - it has to do with the images not being "precise" and the brain having to "form" the images - as oppose to reading from a book or paper
2. read a good, but not too engrossing book - light reading, but something you enjoy - but be sure it's a printed book - ebook like kindles come very very close, and can be used, but an ipad or a computer will actually excite the chemicals in your brain rather than relax them - read until you fall asleep
3. drink some warm milk, avoid alcohol or caffeine or sugary drinks

you need to calm your mind, and once you do, you'll find that you can rest your mind, even if you can't sleep.

[giggitygiggity]

I really struggle on this front and like the original poster, 'can go all night' but an early still puts the fear of god into me!

Agree that you need to calm your mind, I think what is very important is how people aim to get their correct sleep length. For example, if you NEED 6hrs a night to be decent the next morning, don't go to bed at 6hrs -10mins as undoubtably you will toss and turn trying to get to sleep knowing straight away that you will never get the sleep you require. This will therefore make you more agitated and more alert and less likely to fall asleep.

Instead if you NEED 6hrs sleep, make sure you are in bed with the lights off (not watching tv or playing computer) at least 1 hour before your minimum cutoff, ideally more and then you have a decent period where you will not be wound up by the inability to sleep.

[Winnerhofer]

The bottom line is stuff the pills.
The problem could be one of the following:
Weight, sugar and thyroid
Excercise light, eat right!
Try a chiropractor to get rid of tension.

[blind pew]

Involved in the tests for dormicom...surprised it was authorised by my company and when I tried 1/4 of the dose was still knackered 10 hours later.
Reverted to self hypnosis and trace inducing music...far better.

[Piper19]

I also struggle with the same problems as the original poster since 90% of my shifts are at night. One thing that helped me is reverse the alarm clock: instead of setting the alarm clock to wake up, I set it to go to sleep. As soon as my alarm goes, I don't touch any ipad or things that can keep me alert. Otherwise I will find myself staying up later and later because I don't feel sleepy yet. A second thing that helped me is getting every bit of rest I can at nightshifts, even for 5 minutes or so, instead of going to the coffee machine or checking the emails again.

[Amadis of Gaul]

Any kind of chemical sleep aids are prohibited at my airline. Personally, I don't miss them, they never seemed to work for me anyway. I find a nice, long walk prior to bedtime helps a lot more.

[JammedStab]

When people can't sleep they may lie there getting more and more agitated by the fact they are not sleeping. It might help to know that lying down in a cool, darkened, quiet room, resting can be 75% as good as sleep, so it doesn't do to get hung up on not sleeping if you are in bed, mentally relax and you may find you drop off anyway!.

Good point. I only got into the long haul stuff relatively recently which gave me a chance to really find out how well my sleep patterns work. I suspect that it works differently for different people.

Concerning the lying there and not falling asleep, I had come to a conclusion that it was worth 50% sleep but maybe it is 75% sleep or varies by person.

For myself, I tend to switch to local time as much as possible wherever I go because I like to do things during my layover. Others tend to stay in home time. On the other hand, there can be flights that are just overnights with no layover followed by day flying30 hours later.

Usually, I try to have a plan on what sleep to do. If I am at base with a normal sleep pattern and have a 930 pm show, I will try to wake up very early, that morning so that I will intentionally be tired at some point in late afternoon and go to sleep around 530. Then I hopefully get near 4 hours sleep. The I count on a rest during the flight which will usually be at least 2.5 hours. Sometime, I come back to base with a 5 AM arrival and will have to switch back to local day flying. Try to get 2-3 hours max sleep using the alarm. Then be up the rest of the day so once again, I will ideally be tired that night.

Frequently, I will be getting my sleep while on the road in two portions for the day.

As a backup, I always have a 5 hour energy drink with me ready for consumption if required. Of course it doesn't always work. I am not a coffee drinker so it may have more effect on me.

A 30 minute controlled rest on the flight deck power nap can do wonders as well.

To be honest, I think the short haul stuff where you can't get a power nap could be much tougher.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Have a baby - it will teach you quickly to go to bed a at 9 p.m. :{

[roulishollandais]

As instructor I did see many unwaited students' mistakes and allways searched what was wrong that day, that flight : mostly
- not correct sleep
- use of any pill said to have no counter-effect .

Forget pills definitively. If you are tired inform your airline you are not fit and don't fly.

Learn how much sleep YOU need : start during holidays; go to bed when you feel asleep, no alarm, and watch at which time you wake up. Stand up and start your day. You will discover that during your sleep you may have some half wake-up, the next day you remember you listened the church or wrote a word on a paper, aso but felt asleep again easily. You will see that that sleep part has a specific duration (for me it is around 1½ hour, for other it will be 2 hours). Then you will discover that your real wake-up needs a round number of such cycles or a bit more. For me it happens after three cycles around five hours. That is my normal sleep time. Many people need around 7 hours.
If I need to have a shorter sleep it will be 3 hours : NEVER cut any short cycle with an alarm or otherwise.
If a was very tired by the day, or when I was working by night the whole week (as freightdog) I will need 7 hours (4 short cycles).
Observe yourself. I need to sleep the two first short cycles together, and sleeping more than 7 hours destroys my whole day : I shall be like a zombie, and feel bad.

Now during work time schedules are irregular. Keep always in sight your cycles' need. Flying by night is not the same as flying by day : sleep is normally regulated by body temperature. Colder to sleep, warmer to work. Regulation of temperature is disturbed by your schedules and the outside light oscillation . Take a 10 minutes bath with decreased temperature ½°c lower than your actual body before going to sleep if it is daytime. No pill .

If you change your time zone, some days (2-3 days ) before your flight prepare your body :
- modify the schedule of your salted meals at the wanted new schedule
- go to bed (probably you will not sleep but manage a quiet life lying) to take "rest" despite it is often said that we cannot rest before to be tired : false, we may accumulate some prerest, and it is not necessfull to sleep, but stay in your bed try to "dream" (possible without to sleep! )

Sometimes demanding tasks increases the need to rest : learn and train some naps: I am able to do without alarm a 3 minutes and a 15 minutes nap.

Caffeine ? Normally it will just disturb your brain work ! If you like coffee drink only the best : Arabica at regular times.

All that works if you are fit without pathology which is normally the case for pilots.

Overall forget pills when you are a flying crew. Medics are never tested with barovariations and go in blood with sudden doses.

Organize your life to do what you wanted (sex) and needed (reading FCOM ) chosed (fly) with adequate rest and stimulation.

Our school life didn't taught us that important aim to success.

[JammedStab]

The important thing to remember is that different people are different. Cutting short my sleep at the right time works well for me based on crew rest considerations for the flight which can vary from three or four crewmember flights all night(plus more) to 2 crew flights all night.

I have only very occasion found myself sleepy at the more important times of flight.

Changing time zone 2-3 days before flight would frequently not work for me as I sometimes go from days to nights and back to days with 36 hours in between. However, If you are fortunate enough to have this time period, from a fatigue point of view, it can work quite well.

[Piper.Classique]

Balloon pilot here....briefing 05:00, drive to the take off field, unload and inflate balloon, airborne 07:30, land 08:30 to 09:30, with luck no waiting for the retrieve crew, back to refuel 11.00, lunch at 11.30, siesta. Briefing 18:00, repeat morning procedure until 24:00.
Try that for a one week competition. A week later I have usually recovered enough to consider flying again. :)

Sleep aids? Eye mask and ear plugs, the crew set the alarm, but usually I wake up about the right time. Eating plenty of carbs helps, too.

My day job is instructing, SEP.

[roulishollandais]

Changing time zone 2-3 days before flight would frequently not work for me as I sometimes go from days to nights and back to days with 36 hours in between You cannot "change your time zone" but you can eat your salted meals at the next schedule, despite you are still working at the schedule you have to have leaved after your 36 hours rest. Sleeping without sleep is possible too at any moment when you are not at work to build your rest reserve and have a bit of time :)
I agree totally to that fact that everybody is different, hence the necessity to know yourself accurately.:ok:

[JammedStab]

You cannot "change your time zone" but you can eat your salted meals at the next schedule, despite you are still working at the schedule you have to have leaved after your 36 hours rest. Sleeping without sleep is possible too at any moment when you are not at work to build your rest reserve and have a bit of time :)
I agree totally to that fact that everybody is different, hence the necessity to know yourself accurately.:ok:

Just arrived home a few hours ago. It is midnight and will go to bed at some point in the next two hours. Depart tomorrow at 2330 for a ten hour flight and 9 time zones difference.

The plan, 4.5 hours sleep interrupted by the alarm, up all day, try a snooze a 5PM. That will keep me awake until I get my rest on the flight. A little over a day at destination and then back here leaving at 2 AM. Activities during my layover should make me tired for a sleep that evening and on the way home. It is not always like this but it happens.

Otherwise if I get a good night's sleep tonight, I won't be tired tomorrow until departure time and it is not until near that time that I find out at which point in the flight I will get my rest. I may not get it until 6 hours into the flight.

[roulishollandais]

I hope NTSB will study both pills and marijuana and both General Aviation and Airlines : "In general aviation, our investigators sometimes see evidence of drug use by pilots involved in accidents. So we decided it was time to look at this issue more in depth,” said Hart in testimony before the House Subcommittee on Government Operations on the federal government’s response to marijuana legalization as it pertains to transportation policy. “In September we will meet to discuss drug use in aviation by examining toxicology testing results conducted on fatally injured pilots."Insurance need to put some limits after Unions' propositions and "Human factors" Searchers' suggestions.

Rules of commercial pilots are very different in the many ICAO Countries. Bad weather, fire, failures of the plane may add to the consequences.

"Time to look at that -other- issue more in depth" of course.

[stilton]

'If you are tired inform your airline you are not fit and don't fly.'



Try doing that regularly and soon you'll have no shortage of rest.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Well I do so regularly and I have no shortage of changes to my roster to make it more sensible and less tiring.

I guess if people are too chicken **** to even try then the airlines will keep getting away with fatiguing rosters.

Good call.

[despegue]

Some "Airlines", flying Boeing equipment and under EASA rules, based in Western Europe do not pay if you call in fatigued or sick, resulting in crews flying with the flu, congested ears, fatigued ( falling asleep on approach) etc etc.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

But if things are as bad as they sound then perhaps all of said pilots need to man up and start filing fatigue reports (My lot even accept preemptive fatigue reports).

Bet the company would soon change its ways when most of the flight crew decide they're too tired or fatigued.

Won't happen though. No spine.