Fear of heights past 4,000ft?

[FJ98]

Hey guys, it's my first post here but hopefully it's on the most relevant part of the forum as it's mostly medically orientated.

I seem to have a problem, I'm working towards my PPL (13 hours so far) with me flying no higher than 2,000ft and up to now I've never had a problem with flying. However, I was flying with Cadets yesterday and I opted to do some aerobatics but to do so we had to climb to 5,000ft which started to make me really uncomfortable and a bit dizzy, but I carried on and tired to zone it out. However after (plenty) of aerobatics I started to feel dizzy again from not only the hight but also the, albeit low, g forces.
The question I have is how do I get over this feeling of anxiousness? I don't get it when flying in airliners only light aircraft. Even when I try and crack on its in the back of my mind and is ruining the experience. Also, is there any way to improve my 'tolerance' of Gs as I would love to do it again for longer.

[mad_jock]

Are you a smoker?

[fantom]

It has nothing to do with G or altitude; it's because you're not used to them.

I returned from the Gulf (RAF Hunters) on leave and took a short train journey. I nearly wet myself as the old carriage rattled around and swerved about. I just knew there was going to be a crash. I wasn't used to it.

Relax. I flew RAF and civil A/c for 42 years and I cannot go up a ladder or look over a three-story car park; I am scared of heights.

True.

[Piltdown Man]

Let's start at the beginning. Which bit made you uncomfortable? Is it the distance between you and the ground, ie. the hole between you and the ground and the clouds in between? Could it the quality of the ride? Or could it be the distance between you and the ground? The reason I ask is that I don't like being on my garden shed which is 2m high. I nearly crap myself when I look down a stairwell. And I have felt a bit queezy as a passenger during aeros. So it might just be that you feel a bit iffy during aeros - a pretty normal thing.

[gingernut]

I took my mum up in G-BOIL, when she eventually opened her eyes, she told me not to go too fast or too high. Didn't have the heart to explain it :-)

[FJ98]

Mad Jock, no I'm not a smoker, I'm only 16! :)

Fantom, I think that may be the case. It was my first real time doing aeros and the mixture of that and the fact that I'd never been so high in a light aircraft ended up causing my head to spin! It's a very unique experience so I'm not surprised. Is there any way of building up your tolerance of aerobatics? I'm thankful however it's a plane causing me trouble and not a train! :)

PM, thinking it over, what initially made me nervous was the high altitude and for some reason the irrational fear that I was going to fall out of the plane! I'm guessing that when I'm in an airliner since it's so big I feel a little 'safer' as opposed to sitting in a Grob; but that is just stupid and is something I need to find a way of getting over, as it's going to tarnish the experience of not only aeros but my normal PPL flying as well.

All quite ironic considering my military Pilot ambitions!

Thanks for all the input by the way guys!

[FJ98]

dotticom, I agree. It is irrational and something I just need to get a grip of and say 'Nothing is going to happen!' I wish I had another opportunity to go up that high again but I'm on circuits at the moment.

[KNIEVEL77]

Interesting thread!
I'm having a similar problem but with turbulence.
At height and in rough air in an R22 makes me feel slightly uneasy and I'm struggling to overcome it.
Most people have simply suggested exposure therapy!

[Mimpe]

FJ - higher is safer!

I had similar uncomfortable feelings when I first learnt to fly, made worse by my young 200 hr instructor who insisted on throwing the plane around in the air. I didn't really feel at ease till about 40-45 hours.

A few aspects are.
1. I think it takes quite a lot of hours for the brains to "normalise" those sensations of movement in 3 D and accept them
2. I had to expereince a couple of unlatched doors in the air to understand thats its very very had to fall out of an aircraft open door due to the pressure of the slipstream on the door forcing it closed. In any case you are always buckled up!
3. The other reassuring fact is that if you have an engine failure at altitude you have quite along time to wok out where you want to land, and thats quite a bit safer than a car in close proximity to solid objects at speed on the ground.
4. Once you get your get your emergency skills up you will feel feel safer - it will be about the same time as you can do a glide approach without feeling stressed!
5.Your instructor in any case shouldn't rough you up so much that you don't enjoy the flying - your feelings about heights and movement should be a gradual adaptation, which you enjoy exposing yourself to , and mastering.
6. Make sure you are intellectually prepared, hydrated, have had plenty of sleep, ,not hungry and not hot or cold - physical comfort and preparation reduce stress.

[Blues&twos]

I second Mimpe's point 6. One of the worst flights of my life (doing aeros, which I loved) I overheated and felt so bad I had to get out of my car at a set of traffic lights on the way home to throw up in a litter bin. Horrible....and quite embarrassing....

Apologies to the unfortunate refuse collector.

[Whirlybird]

FJ98 and KNIEVEL77 - you're getting things precisely backwards with this 'exposure therapy' and wanting to go that high again right now, and so on. Take it slowly, as others have said. I've flown both f/w and helicopters, and I've suffered from fear of heights, fear of doing stalls, apprehension at extreme heights....you name it; I've probably been frightened of it. I've also, many years after that, flown in fairly extreme conditions with no problem.

The fear is completely irrational, but that's not necessarily much help when you're feeling it. It's also very, very common. You need to get used to being in the air, both mentally and physiologically. Then it will get better. Meanwhile, it's fine to discuss it, but don't compound the problem by worrying about it, worrying about the worry etc etc. Just get on and learn to do circuits, fly the R22 in sensible conditions, or whatever you're meant to be doing. It will pass....

[Naki Boy]

Our brains are funny things aren't they! You might not even be thinking anxiously, but subconsciously your mind is already at work priming up the different organs ready for the fight or flight response. When you are adding stress to that, for instance the higher altitudes and aerobatic manoeuvres, something that you have not done much of, your mind is at that point where it's at the tipping edge, it's time to fight or flight. Heart beats faster, skin gets clammy, eyes become dilated. Your ready to take on that perceived threat in your mind.

Many men and woman have at a time in their lives, had to talk themselves through a situation, we have all done it. Your brain is telling you one thing along with all those physical symptoms, but you are calmly telling yourself your ok, you'll get through this, there's no need to panic.

I heard of a fireman who had panic attacks when he would go and get a haircut. He felt that he had no control when sitting on a barbers chair with an apron on around his neck. What was the perceived threat? That he couldn't get away if he had to? It's like his mind was telling him he was in danger, but obviously in reality he wasn't. Maybe a bad haircut was his worst real danger!

Don't let that fear stop you. That's one thing I have learnt in life. You do that, in a way you reaffirm that there is a threat and it stays etched in your brain, however irrational it maybe.

Best of luck!

[RetiredF4]

FJ98, from my expierience as an instructor in FJ i recommend you try the following exercise while flying in general and especially when attacked by uncomfort and following air sickness.

Control your body, especially your muscles. You may start with your finger nuckles and with your legs. Check if you tighten your muscles despite no need for it. Contract them and then relax them in a conscious way, then concentrate on flying or enjoying the ride. Repeat that check as often as you like, but it is foremost important that you can become relaxed while flying. I used to tell some students to fly without their gloves on, then they could check on getting white knuckles, the best time to start this relaxing exercise.

If you feel that it is the height which causes the trouble, then avoid looking down, but orientate your eyeballs along the longitudonal and lateral axis, which means along the fuselage and along the wings. If you need to look down for area orientation, do it while turning. That way your aircraft becomes the reference and not the earth below and turns or climbs will only tilt the earth, but not your body reference.

By the way, you can train what i said in a simple roller coaster if you like.

Hope that helps.

[Opsbeatch]

I went through this some years back, used to hate going above circuit height for some reason. Had exactly the same issues, however, I gave myself a good talking to!

Next flight was a wave soaring flight up to 14,000'+...this made me feel very small and insignificant! Rolled the glider on it's back and stuck my tongue out to the world...from that point on no such issues!

Only time I get something is if I try and sleep on commercial flights, for some reason my body won't let me.

OB

[notjustanotherpilot]

My perspective would be that it was more the apprehension of the aeros beforehand and then as you have said yourself the large amount of them that were done.
As you were on climb to a sufficient height you were thinking about it and although you may not have thought so as such, your mind was quite likely doing the old "what am I doing up here and what is going to happen" scenario.
I recall when I was learning aerobatics for the first few lessons that I couldn't go for very long in a session without beginning to feel a little queasy - it didn't matter whether it was me in control or the instructor. You do build up a tolerance to it, and of course you also loose it. I haven't done any aeros since the 1990s and the last few times I did do just a few short sets, such as a couple of loops, a stall turn and tried to execute a barrel roll and or an aileron roll or two I needed to stop and just fly straight and level for a while, otherwise that brown paper bag was going to get a workout.
I would say you need to just stay with the learning to fly normally part of it and once you have got your license, do an aerobatic rating. But as part of the normal learning sessions go higher than just a couple of thousand feet. If you have already done 13 or so hours then I would have thought you'd have gone through more than just basic handling and would have also done stalls which would require you to go several thousand feet up to provide a safety zone under you to enable a recovery from the stall and still have a more than minimum height under you. The club I learned at has a stipulation of no aerobatics or practise stalls under 3 thousand feet.
I discovered that once I had done my basic aero rating I stopped over controlling the aircraft and had a better understanding of just how much control input I could make and still remain within the design limits. Incidentally the occupants, if there are any more than yourself, will be complaining well before the aircraft is and that is in a non-aero rated plane.
As someone has stated above, height is your friend. And as a parachute ops pilot it isn't just planes it applies to.
One of those great old aeronautical sayings is that,
"There are three things that are of no use to you.
The runway behind you,
The fuel still in the bowser and
The altitude above you."

[KNIEVEL77]

FJ98,

How are you getting on?

K77.

[glendalegoon]

I've been a pilot for 39 years plus and I am afraid of heights. NOt altitude mind you, but heights. Can't look over the side of a bridge etc.

Recently I learned of a theory that this is not a fear so much but a HYPER SENSITIVITY to heights that can actually make a pilot a bit better, esp at landing.

Something may be in side of us that makes us want to try to fly, even without a plane which is why we have conflicts about looking over the side of a bridge etc.

THE THING TO DO is go up in a regular trainer not an aerobatic trainer and see if you have the same problem.

I've flown some planes that make me more nervous than others. Some are just uncomfortable or not as well made as others.

SO AGAIN, just go up in a regular plane like a PA28 and see if you have the same feelings.

There might have even been a slight exhaust leak in the aerobatic plane you flew in.

Good luck.