Coast-watch contract renewal

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Hi chaps, anyone know when the current contract expires with Cobham?

SN

[arcs'n'sparcs]

2020 from memory

[PPRuNeUser0161]

OK they wont be talking about renewing then for at least another 2-3 years.

SN

[yr right]

Looks like they will get the amsa as we'll. they converted all the planes for it that they need. That's awarded next month.
Cheers

[Tango7]

Any news of who won yet?

[Copythisnumberdown]

I hear that Jetgo are on the shortlist with 4 modified Legacy Jets

[yr right]

Was told by head amsa man that will be awarded this month hold up with missing Malaysia flight. Suspect this week. Not looking good for pearl. Cobham leading as I was told

[TBM-Legend]

Makes sense to amalgamate both contracts and change the name [with Customs boats etc] and call it the Australian Coast Guard....:hmm:

[BPA]

Whoever gets it's the AMSA contract will hopefully base sufficient number of aircraft on the east coast where the majority of AMSA's searches take place. Having 1 aircraft in CS and ML with the occasional aicraft in Brisbane just doesn't cut it. A min of 6 (ideally 7) aircraft are really required to do the job.

[onehitwonder]

The the $350K standing charge per base per month?

[yr right]

It's up to amsa for the bases not the contractor. Pearl winter to base an aircraft in Brisbane and other places amsa refused

[Tango7]

yr right, Your comment regarding Brisbane is interesting after having read this...


"AMSA does not intend to specify the number and location of bases. Each tenderer will need to determine the number and location of the bases it proposes, having regard to the historical search data provided, with the aim being to provide a service to reach the maximum number of potential incident locations in the minimum time. As such, at least half of the bases are likely to be on the east coast (east coast is defined as locations within the ACT, NSW, QLD, TAS and VIC); as the plot of historical searches shows, this is where the majority of incidents are likely to occur"


https://www.amsa.gov.au/about-amsa/tenders-and-contracts/documents/13AMSA001-Industry_Update_January_2013.pdf

[yr right]

That's the new contract not the old. Amsa set the original contract locations.

[yr right]

Which leaves you wondering how many aircraft cobham have put up with ample dashes available and the lack of the 328 that pearl have. Contract I was to be done this month.

[Dashunder]

yr right,
This week is now 2 weeks ago, seems your source is exactly what this forum is a rumour.

[yr right]

It's a contract. The fella that told me is quite high up in the scheme of things. Woop woop see what happens who knows. Maybe it has already been done and not released. Was told it was held back due to the 777 going missing if you know your stuff you would have already known it was suppose to have been done by now.

[Green gorilla]

Won't be long.

[Tango7]

Still no announcements? Very slow process by the sounds of it.

[Stationair8]

Just waiting on Mr Amann to get his tender in.

[TWOTBAGS]

Now now Stationair that':}:}s just naughty! :D

At least the tender required respondents to have an AOC with the selected aircraft on it this time:E

[halas]

Stationair8...;) Too funny!

halas

[C206driver]

Just bringing this back up....

Any further word from AMSA etc?

[Dashunder]

Been a while now, has anyone heard anything??

[C206driver]

Dash . Dash .
Dash Dash Dash
Dash . . .
. . . .
. Dash
Dash Dash

???

[onehitwonder]

Lets see whats out there from what I've heard around the traps, 3 of which i believe are credible


Dornier 328 Prop
Dornier 328 Jet
Dash 8
ERJ
SAAB 340

[Tango7]

Is the new contract from Jan 2015?


My money is on the Dash 8

[Biggles1159]

Nothing out there yet????

[Cirronimbus]

Might be a tad awkward to swap the blue uniform for a green one when some of them swapped the green for the blue in the beginning? Wonder if those people would want to go back again or even if they'd be hired again?

Interesting times ahead... Wonder what use there is for the Dorniers after the Dash 8s take over? Back to the boneyard maybe? Re-fit for charter/RPT would be more costly than its worth but they've got unlimited funds so who knows what they will have a go at?

[yr right]

Did hear that pearl put out an email a couple of weeks ago starring they can't confirm or deny they lost it !!!

[yr right]

Just had an interesting phone call. Jetgo using emb135 jets are a very very very hot tip. Aircraft ready to go.

[anonymouspilot]

Ready to go as in 'some airframes available'? Or ready to go as in surveillance radar fitted, comm suite, drop mods and approvals? I'll never say never, but the idea of a jet for slow/low level search doesn't seem realistic. My money's on the dash...but then again, it was last time too...

[yr right]

Apparently ready to go full stop. Can get there quick good slow speed and good endurance. Just what I was told. The contract says what we won't and how much we will pay the rest is up to you. As I was told they on the money. I was a little shocked as we'll. I guess time will tell. Not looking good for pearl but.

[AerocatS2A]

You get told a lot yr right, some of it contradictory, I guess that means that whoever wins we can say to you "yr right!"

[wateroff]

Some old 145's that used to fly in the country were originally (I remember/believe), were the MP versions, Maritime Patrol - good for LR ops - crap for pulling a load out of The Curry in summer......

[Defenestrator]

Couple of different variants of the 145 Wateroff. The later model (XR) would do it easy. The only variant suitable to maritime ops would be a converted Legacy as it has the extra (considerable) endurance

D

[BPA]

Correct Skyairworld did operate two EMB145 MP' (SZF and SZH), but the MP does not stand for Maritime Patrol. The EMB 145 is available with different MTOW's and Embraer have named the different variants MK (19990 kg MTOW), MP (20990 kg MTOW) and the LR (22000kg MTOW). The MK and MP have the same fuel capacity (4132kg), with the LR having more (5136kg).

The confusing part (thanks to Embraer) is they have also used MP to describe a maritime version of the 145 built for the military. The EMB 145 MP is a new-generation multirole aircraft produced by Embraer to meet the challenging requirements of maritime patrol and anti-submarine warfare. Derived from ERJ 145 platform, the aircraft can be configured for maritime patrol and anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare missions.
The EMB 145 MP's open architecture allows for integration of mission systems according to the customer's requirements. Its under-wing hard-points can be fitted with conventional and smart weapons.
The aircraft is powered by two AE 3007 turbofan engines, each generating a maximum thrust of 7,420lb. The maximum speed is about Mach 0.78 and range is about 3,020km.

Embraer Defesa & Segurança (http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com/english/content/isr_systems/emb_145_state_of_art.asp)

Three view of the EMB 145 Maritime Patrol (MP) can be found here:

Embraer Defesa & Segurança (http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com/english/content/isr_systems/emb_145_three_view.asp)

And this is the EMB145 (MP) that was operated in Australia:

VH-SZF Embraer 145 (http://www.aussieairliners.org/embraer/vh-szf/0190.005.html)

Embraer have also developed a Multi Intel version of the EMB145 and this aircraft is designed for:
• Ground Mapping
• Ground Surveillance
• Surveillance of Economic Zones
• Surveillance of Borders
• Search and Rescue

It still requires heavy modifications to be carried out. Details here:
http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com/english/content/isr_systems/emb_multi_intel_multi_role_real.asp

My guess is the Jetgo tender would be based around after market third party provider of systems such as this;
http://www.uasc.com/specialmissions.aspx
http://www.uasc.com/products/mmms.aspx

http://gs.flir.com/uploads/file/products/brochures/airborne_brochure.pdf

Traditionally SAR/ Maritime Patrol has been carried by turboprops, but even the RAAF is moving towards jet Maritime Patrol with the purchase of the P8 (based on the B737).

[yr right]

Aero cat. Let's see here. I get told a lot. Maybe because I ask a lot and know the correct people to ask and know them on a personal level. And as for be conadicting we'll know just updating what I have found out.

[RENURPP]

I would have thought 3000kms was a little short on range for this type of operation? And I assume that range is at altitude with no intermediate descent and climb back to altitude let alone a search of any description.

[TWOTBAGS]

you still need a multi TP to fly the tight search and drop patterns

Tell that to the Japanese (GV & F900), Koreans (CL604), French (F50), Americans (P8 & Falcon). Plenty of people out there operating drop capable jets.

Lets see what happens next, there are capable operators with capable platforms. AMSA ran the Jet flag up the pole as far back as 2011 with the knowledge that the Doorknob had its limits and relying on Ronnie RAAF for the extreme range SAR coverage was not a permanent option.

The tenders were all in well before MH370 proved the theory, the Japanese GV demonstrated the capability on a live op and AMSA creamed their jeans with what a jet could do for range, endurance, response time, payload over and above their existing capability.

Personally I reckon they are hanging for any news from the Fugro ships out there now before they make a public announcement as to who won and why.:rolleyes:

[RENURPP]

Cobham and AR, will still place Multi TP for this tender....period.i will put money against that theory, how much are you up for?

[yr right]

The contract states as I was told is this is what we won't and this is what we will pay. How you do it is up to you.
No don't work for AR btw. Completely independent of anyone. All I've done is up dating what I'm told. And yes a jet is more than capable of performing the operations required. Lots of other country's use them.

What's got to be considered is that the funds available andante a short time loose for someone may end up as a long time gain. Then the politics involved with people that don't won't certain players involved ( Seen that with other government contracts ).

See what happens

[RENURPP]

Hhhhmmmmmmmmm, what are we betting ow. I believed you were of the opinion, TP no jets however now you are saying 604 or 146. Which one is it?

[yr right]

Me I'm not betting just relaying what I've been told. 146 I would say to exxxxxy to run. 135 145 per flight hour I would imagine maybe even less than a 328 or dash.

[AerocatS2A]

I would hope they wouldn't bid with a 146 (no one in SM with any experience on them, have to find a B146 management team for SM when they're already short of B146 experience in Regional), an Ejet on the other hand...

[drunk_pilot]

There's a Darwin NOTAM for SAR dropping training for CUSTOMS DASH 8 Aircraft, however this may have something to do with the DN AR base contract finishing up at the end of this year. Certainly looking better for Cobham though.

[Jetdream]

Nothing new there. Cobham have been doing drop training for a couple of years now.

[onehitwonder]

Customs charters the dornier from time to time too

[yr right]

Pearl told today they no longer have the contract. Unknown at the moment who got it

[drunk_pilot]

Cobham got it.

[Defenestrator]

Nothing about it online. Me thinks you're drunk Drunk Pilot.

[Dashunder]

Cobham got it!!

What with??

[Capt Claret]

That's two Australian family aviation companies that have been undercut by foreign companies. Good on ya QLD Gov and AMSA...bunch of w%&kers.

You forget that the contract that Cobham have was commenced in 1994/5 by NJS, then an Australian company owned by Warren Seymour & Adelle Lloyd. Should all the Aussies employed, subject now to foreign ownership they had no say in, be retrenched just because of a buy-out?

[RENURPP]

companies that have been undercut by foreign companies.Who says they were undercut?

You may buy the cheapest of everything you see, I suspect its a better product that has been offered. Not a 146, not a 135, and not DHC8 and certainly not Dorniers.

[yr right]

There was nothing wrong with the 328 airframes. Supporting systems let it down.

[onehitwonder]

So what aircraft is doing it?

[yr right]

Only heard rumours and nothing official as yet but dash 8. I'm fussing 300 series at this stage.

[onehitwonder]

-300 branded coastwatch on one side and rescue on the other than hey?

[BPA]

Perhaps they will go with the CN-235/HC-144 like the US Coast Guard use.

[terminus mos]

This would just about be curtains for Pearl Aviation then? No more PTTEP to Truscott, no more Dorniers. Some King Airs but that's about it. Sad, I like them.

[yr right]

Maybe not. Talk about convert them back to pax. They have narrow gear which makes the suitable under the rules for some strips in the NT

[C206driver]

Best guess is CL-604 (cns mel per) & DHC8 (drw?)

[The Green Goblin]

When the cargo door was modded for dropping ops on ze dornier it spelt the end for rpt ops. They are limited now to air work only.

They will more than likely be parked up awaiting a suitable use somewhere else.

[yr right]

Nah the 328 can be mod back for normal use.

[AerocatS2A]

Best guess is CL-604 (cns mel per) & DHC8 (drw?)
Good guess. 4 x CL604 spread over Melbourne, Perth, and Cairns. No mention of Darwin or additional Dash 8s though so I guess they will use CW Dash 8s on an ad hoc basis where necessary.

I guess yr right's "hot tip" on Jetgo wasn't so hot after all.

[RENURPP]

There was nothing wrong with the 328 airframes. Supporting systems let it down.
Yep like engines, hydraulics, avionics and all the stuff in the back.:}

[Capn Bloggs]

Cobham wins $640m AMSA search and rescue contract | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/10/cobham-wins-640m-amsa-search-and-rescue-contract/)

[j3pipercub]

I would wager most of the CL604 crew will be ex raaf.

[Capn Bloggs]

RAAF to you, bloggs! :* :=

[j3pipercub]

You're holding on too tight.

[Biggles1159]

Cobham SAR Services have won the AMSA Contract operating Challenger 604 Aircraft. 1st aircraft into service in 2016. Contract goes for 12 Years with an option to extend for another 3 years:cool::D

[BPA]

Link below about 721 Squadron Royal Danish Airforce and their CL604 MPA. Includes interior photos and and one photo showing drop capability from the rear cargo door.

721 Squadron ? Danish transport squadron | FLYMAG (http://flymag.dk/eskadrille-721-flyvevabnets-transport-eskadrille-en/)

From the article;

The search is done typically by a rapid descent to a lower altitude, typically 500-800 feet at a speed of about 200 knots, in the area where the missing person or ship is believed to be.

It then searches the area both visually and using the FLIR camera, flying a search pattern which is slowly expanded in the direction the missing persons or ship would have drifted with the wind and currents known to be in the area. This is a situation where the Challengers five man crew comes into good use. Everybody keeps a lookout for the missing persons and if needed, the flight engineer can drop a life raft and/or a marker in the vicinity of those in need.

When the missing persons are found, the aircraft descends to about 100 feet and make a fly-by to confirm that it is in fact the people they were looking for and to assess their situation. At the same time, the aircraft position is plotted and sent to the relevant authorities, who then dispatch either a rescue helicopter or rescue boat.

[Icarus2001]

Okay, the title of this thread is COAST WATCH CONTRACT RENEWAL.

Today it was announced that Cobham has won the SEARCH and RESCUE CONTRACT.

Cobham wins $640m AMSA search and rescue contract | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/10/cobham-wins-640m-amsa-search-and-rescue-contract/)

Now did the original poster, Soup Nazi mean the SAR contract or the Coastwatch contract?

They are two distinctly different contracts, fulfilling different roles with different aircraft. It just so happens that Cobham will have both from 2016.

Makes sense to amalgamate both contracts and change the name [with Customs boats etc] and call it the Australian Coast Guard....Er, no it doesn't. It may look like that to someone who does not understand the roles and culture of the two organisations (Customs & AMSA)

Not going into too much detail, if you have the time, you may want to look up the structure of AMSA-Border Protection command-ADF-Police and Federal police joint forces and structure. AMSA have a lot of assets.
Again, no they don't. Perhaps you could list three or four?

[TWOTBAGS]

Well good on Cobham.

I lament their corporate success in being able to provide a much needed capability upgrade for AMSA services.

It is however a damming indictment of the process, there are several FACTS that seem to have been glossed over in the awarding of the contract. That for all its visibility seem to be massaging the ego of big business and once again canberra has elected to provide less for more cost.

The two other final contenders for the Jet component should rightly be spitting pills right about now.

Fact is the other tenderers submitted similar or bids that meet the $32.5M p/a operating cost...... Cobham has not (640/12=53), you work out where the extra money is going. Especially when one operator tendered exactly the same airframe.

Fact, it was a requirement of the tender that the bidder had the aircraft on the AOC, once again, two did, one did not........ and of course the one that did not got the nod.

So once again, although there is a capability increase and back slapping all round the reality is, canberra lobbyists have extracted their value, a foreign owned big business, has been remarkably successful in a competitive bid process that once again shows that the real loser is the Australian Tax Payer.

It is great that there is a capability increase, yet the process is rotten. A non conforming bid appears to have won the day....... again. Yet for all the cost involved in government process to be fair and transparent the machine has once again steam rolled democratic process and what is good for the end user..... the Australian public.

With a nearly a Quarter of a billion $ difference where one competitor bid with identical equipment.

The process and outcome stinks, the other bidders have very good reason to cry foul on this one.

FACTS

Competition......no, you now have a monopoly.
Price..... no, you now have more expense.
Capability.... no, identical equipment tendered.
Process ...... no, a non conforming bid has succeed.

Whats wrong with this picture.

[Square Bear]

Twotbags

you forgot:

VIABILITY..................ala AMMAN aviation.

Anyway, I am guessing equal amount of pilot jobs, so if business has issues (and who knows, may even be justifiable so) maybe they should lament/vent on an Business Bulletin Board....or refuse to pay their Lobbyists bill.

[Creampuff]

Fact, it was a requirement of the tender that the bidder had the aircraft on the AOC ...Could you copy and paste the provision from the Approach To Market to support that assertion? The ATM is a public document.

I think you'll find that your 'fact' is, in fact, fiction. :=

[yr right]

aerocats2a
All I said was that jet go had put in for it with jets. Then I was told you can't use jets but weight the winner is useing what ?????

Anyone with any idea knew who won months ago. Chob was the clear choice with back up behind them. The real only surprise is the 604. I think everyone will agree to that we'll expect Clinton aka creamie.

[RENURPP]

Just 2 weeks ago, this
Just had an interesting phone call. Jetgo using emb135 jets are a very very very hot tip. Aircraft ready to go.

AND
Apparently ready to go full stop. Can get there quick good slow speed and good endurance. Just what I was told. The contract says what we won't and how much we will pay the rest is up to you. As I was told they on the money. I was a little shocked as we'll. I guess time will tell. Not looking good for pearl but.
Now we hear Anyone with any idea knew who won months ago.
While you didn't outright state Jetgo had it, you certainly sounded confident. Do you believe your own mumblings?
You certainly need better informants, the ones you have been relying on are not in the "Know".
The reality is that line pilots or middle management pilots probably know 3/4 of 5/8 of f$%^^all. its all wishful thinking.

[AerocatS2A]

yr right, I read your JetGo comment as being a hot tip that they got the contract, not that were tendering with a particular aircraft type.

[RENURPP]

Jetgo were in the final stages along with AR and Cobham.I believe that.

[yr right]

As I said jet go where in with a chance. Up to that point no one had even mention them.
One would think that for the contract to be held up so long that it must have been close thing for all. Just saying

[RENURPP]

It's going to be a tuff 18 months for the flight crew at AR.
Yes it is, and I wish them the best.
You did answer your own question, what will stop them from leaving or where will they go?
18 months is a long time in this industry, who knows what will happen.

[hiwaytohell]

Bear

AMMAN aviationReally?

Execujet and Jetgo at least already successfully operate the types they are said to have bid and they would have a pretty good idea of the true operating costs.

Challenger vs Legacy both have been previously modified for SAR (or the EMB145 has), so not much risk for AMSA. Both have similar range, but the Embraer would be quite a deal cheaper to run and would carry nearly double the Challenger in the cabin which some ex AR guys I know reckoned was a stretch at times in the 328 with all the stuff they need to carry, so will be tight in the Challenger.

[Fred Gassit]

How slow can those jets fly?

Stores delivery over terrain and some coastlines can sometimes need a bit of agility.

[yr right]

More to the point is what type of search radar will they be useing ????

[CaptainEmad]

Might depend on the variant, though it seems there is not a huge payload at max fuel...


Loading

A. Maximum ramp weight: 48,300 lb (21,909 kg)

B. Maximum takeoff weight: 48,200 lb (21,863 kg)

C. Maximum landing weight: 38,000 lb (17,237 kg)

D. Maximum zero fuel weight: 32,000 lb (14,515 kg)

E. Standard basic operating weight: 27,185 lb (12,331 kg)

F. Maximum fuel weight: 20,000 lb (9,072 kg)

Payload – full fuel (A-E-F): 1,115 lb (506 kg)

Maximum payload (D-E): 4,815 lb (2,184 kg)

Fuel with maximum payload: 16,300 lb (7,394 kg)



Range

Maximum range at M 0.74: 4,027 NM 4,634 SM 7,458 km

Maximum range at M 0.80: 3,714 NM 4,274 SM 6,878 km

(NBAA IFR Reserves, ISA, with 5 pax/2 crew and maximum fuel)

[Green gorilla]

Remember range is calculated on a no pressurize case on the return.

[gav_20022002]

Im guessing they will use the Same Raytheon SV-2022 Search Radar, Wescam MX-15 electro-optics and Surveillance information Management system as the current Dash -8's, would make it way cheaper and easier by purchasing a few more of these with the existing spares they already have in stock along with training packages for their use.

[yr right]

Then it has to be mounted. Big job

[TBM-Legend]

Here's your answer. They will use a derivative of this. Field of Canada has done the mods to the Dash 8's...
Maritime Surveillance Aircraft - Boeing MSA - Bombardier Challenger - Sovereignty Patrol - CASR Aerospace - Canadian American Strategic Review - Challenger 605 - Maritime Patrol - Canadian Aerospace - Bombardier Aerospace - Aerospace Industry - Chall (http://www.casr.ca/ai-boeing-msa-challenger.htm)

[onehitwonder]

Only 3 for Australia wide coverage? Surely that cuts in on response times

[yr right]

Wonder if they will combine coast watch and amsa aircraft in some bases with the dash 8. That then will give them greater coverage maybe.

[Cirronimbus]

Cobham started modifying their Dash 8s a couple of years ago so that they were capable of making air drops.

Wouldn't be hard to equip the Coastwatch aircraft with SAR gear just in case.

Reasonably simple matter to re-deploy a SAR equipped Coastwatch aircraft to a nearby SAR incident to begin a search and then organise replacements for both missions if necessary.

No need for a large fleet of specially modified SAR aircraft when there are already plenty of SAR equipped aircraft out and about around the coastline already. The new jets would be able to fill any gaps.

The existing Coastwatch Dash 8s have all the necessary search equipment fitted already. Add the SAR gear and air drop capability and there is a reasonably large fleet of SAR capable airframes and crews available.

Probably more than any other tenderer could have offered for the price?

[AerocatS2A]

The catch is that Customs may not be happy having "their" aircraft retasked for a SAR for too long. I'm sure any dual use of aircraft has been negotiated with both agencies though.

[yr right]

Common sense tells you they would have the aircraft and track record to preform the job in the best possible way.

[manymak]

MB rumoured to have resigned from PAA/Aerorescue.

Is this the end?

[exmexican]

I guess he'll be heading to Cobham to oversee the installation of his industry-leading search radar system to the new airframes.

[isartheory]

There will no doubt be a few ex Surv Aust crew now with AR who try and rebuild the bridge they torched............