Red Arrows: Inside the Bubble

[It's Not Working]

Just a heads-up. Tonight (Sunday) BBC2 2100. Has to be better than watching the fitfest from Scotland.

[Wander00]

Anything is better than the fitfest from Scotland - without major sporting nations like USA and others competing the whole thing is in IMHO pretty pointless, but the Reds - priceless

[WH904]

For the first time in my life I actually submitted a complaint to the Beeb about the way they have dumped the entire BBC1 schedule. I hope everyone else will do likewise. Not that it will achieve anything (I recommend a letter to your MP too, as I've done). Shocking waste of license money. If these muppets want to screen two weeks of mind-numbing sport then they can stick it on BBC3/4.

As for the Reds documentary, I'm keeping my expectations low in the hope that I might be slightly surprised, but somehow I can't help expecting it to be the usual BBC hype, combined with endless interviews about how everyone feels, family life, blah, blah. I assume there will be very little time devoted to the business of actually flying, or describing what the Reds actually do. Presumably that would be judged to be too tedious for the average viewer, whereas watching some blokes running round in a circle is deemed to be quality television. Go figure ;)

[PPRuNe Pop]

As Donald Sutherland in Kelly's Hero's would say - 'cut the negative vibes.'


As I understand it there will be far more action from INSIDE the aircraft rather than that which we usually see. Judge later.

[Genstabler]

I don't think you will be disappointed. Lots of information on how they train and operate and some great flying sequences. Theme is following the two new guys who joined this year and their efforts to make the grade up to the team getting PDA. Not sentimental or overhyped.

[dazdaz1]

WH904

I have submitted a complaint to OFCOM. As to BBC five live coverage. 12 hours a day? Too much air time for this event.

[langleybaston]

What is this event in Scotland pray? Have they not left the UK?
If not, why not?
Should one allow one's servants to watch?

[salad-dodger]

Thanks for the heads up on the Red Arrows programme. Set to record.

Have to say though that the BBC TV and radio coverage of the Commonwealth Games has been superb.

S-D

[Wander00]

But does it have to be on THREE channels at once - we are not all sports fanatics!

[Al R]

That was good - editorial note though - why did the viewer have to wait until about minute 58 to find out what the oft repeated 'PDA' stood for?

[Sun Who]

Watched it - enjoyed it.
Have the Reds ever failed PDA? What happens in that event?

Sun.

[goudie]

Just finished watching it Excellent!:D

[Alsacienne]

A good programme with sensitive editing! Mind you, when have the Reds ever failed a PDA exam! Can't remember any 'fallow' years in the last 50!

[tezzer]

Just one word.

Respect.

[smujsmith]

An enjoyable programme, obviously using standard "hype it up" techniques. A couple of questions, why does the AOCS need to wear a "grow bag" with an outsize arse ? Secondly, has any AOC ever told the team they were not competent? I suspect not. So, I just watched a programme about an aerobatic team, who go for a month in the sun, and qualify to wear a red flying suit. Perhaps I'm just an old cynic!!

Smudge:ok:

[goudie]

Smudge, it's show business, full of hype but entertaining.

[Flugplatz]

Very good and without the usual semi-mocking 'plinky-plonk' music you usually get in modern documentaries. Some really great photography and editing, made it very clear that it is all about teamwork. Nice paint job on the planes too

[Dengue_Dude]

Not one mention of Kebabs and Kokinnelli . . . don't believe they were there!

Best of luck to the whole RAFAT for 2014+

[seadrills]

Watched it.

Enjoyed it.

Now understand why the RAF don't have enough money to buy MPAs.

[ShyTorque]

I thought PDA stood for poison dwarf's authorisation.......

[jayteeto]

AOC, Wessex/Chinook pilot. He stood up and got me out of some deep sh1t twelve years ago. He could have let me be the fall guy and take the blame for a fatal. Not a poison dwarf for me :-)

[ShyTorque]

Nor me. However.......;)

[NutLoose]

An enjoyable programme, obviously using standard "hype it up" techniques. A couple of questions, why does the AOCS need to wear a "grow bag" with an outsize arse ?

Oddly enough I thought that too, is it the in thing to wear to the beach these days? Or the in thing to wear playing with the kids at home?

Bar that, not bad in not a bit stage managed.

[WH904]

Well, I reserved judgement as requested but it turned-out just as predicted. Garbage, of typical BBC proportions.

What is this obsession with "Jeopardy Moments" on every programme? Will they pass the PDA? Course they will, otherwise we've all been hallucinating the past few weeks. Why can't they treat viewers like adults without the hype, silly music, and patronising commentary?

What was that rubbish about the team facing a critical moment just because one Hawk pulled out with an extended ladder? God help us, is that the kind of nonsense we need to hear? And what was that endless garbage about how much g the pilot is pulling, at precisely the times when he wasn't actually pulling any g? And what about the other 99 percent of the display that was never mentioned? Did it tell anyone what it is like to fly a display routine? God no, that would have been too intelligent for us viewers.

Seriously, the RAFAT deserve better than this rubbish. But it is the kind of infantile stuff we expect from the TV these days, sadly.

[betty swallox]

I just caught it on iPlayer as I'm not in the UK. Excellent, I thought! Well done Joe Hourston; it's a long time since you showed me your PFLs!!

But. In typical PPRuNe style, sooooooo much whinging about the Commonwealth Games. The thread is about the Reds!! Suck it up princess(s).

Great TV. I think some of the comments are a bit harsh. I don't think it infantile. Remember the audience; the great British public.

[Al R]

Very good and without the usual semi-mocking 'plinky-plonk' music you usually get in modern documentaries. Some really great photography and editing, made it very clear that it is all about teamwork.

Oh, I dunno - I thought I caught one or two bursts of that bloody BBC oboe and some whimsical, ironic string plucking.. why do they overlay everything with it - it's like chickweed these days, the televisual audio equivalent of a Quentin Willson permanently raised sardonic eyebrow. I thought that Red 8s twirly bits around the box was visually very striking, especially in the turn.

If you dissected how RAFAT flies compared to other teams, what is the difference, why is RAFAT deemed to be the benchmark that others aspire to? I'm sure that other pilots are just as technically on the ball but if you looked objectively at a performance from RAFAT, what makes it different to say, the Thunderbirds? Do teams have different approaches to what they are trying to deliver, ie technical prowess or 'just' something visually amazing but not technically all that demanding?

[Rossian]

......I think Al, its because the Reds "flow" and it all happens in front of the audience (formation changes at the top of a loop f'rinstance).

The Thunderbirds display seems to take ages and there are significant gaps while they rearrange the formation. Yes, they do fly incredibly close to each other but there is "static" quality to it, a bit hard to describe.

Having had the good fortune to have flown with the Patrouille De France during a practice of their full display (a long time ago, think Fouga Magisters) they seemed to have the same philosophy as the Reds but slightly "rougher round the edges" which gave them an "edgy" feel.

The Reds sometime make it lok TOO easy which is why some people go with the "yawn" quotes. I think they really ARE the best.

The Ancient Mariner

[Al R]

Thanks, that's pretty much what I was wondering. Theatrical bells and whistles compared to seat of the pants derring do is a gross and unfair over simplification and doesn't do the skills justice but that's interesting, cheers.

I tweeted just now; the memorial on the cliffs just made the whole tempo of the prog pause for just a brief moment and remind ourselves that these are young lives on the line too, no matter how those skills are demonstrated or how many crass (as you say) yawns are offered.

We should be very proud of them, anyone who strives to be the best or however it's delivered - especially in a world where the pursuit of turgid mediocrity seems to be the goal.

[MPN11]

I'm far too old and cynical to go "Oooooh, the Red Arrows", but I did enjoy the programme. For me, the briefings and 'mental rehearsals' were an interesting insight.

I do agree that AOC in a flying suit was incongruous and, dare I say, inappropriate - was he trying to look like 'one of the boys'? Looking like an AOC would have been better, IMO.

[500N]

Ancient

Never seen that said before but that is the best comparison I have read of the differences.

[Parson]

Programme had a few interesting insights but in general was poor compared to the 25th anniversary programme in '89.... if you can remember that far back...

[1.3VStall]

Quite enjoyed the programme, but does anyone wear RAF uniform any more? It was all grow bags and cabbage kit - the AOC was even clad in a grow bag to stand on a beach watching the display!

[cuefaye]

Excellent - well done the Team and the BBC. I'm sure that Joe Public will have been well impressed, and rightly so.:ok:

[Basil]

Stunning! I couldn't get anywhere near it. That's why I was a truckie :ok:

OK, it would be great to see the REAL lead up, warts and all, but this was for public consumption.

p.s. 1.3Vs: but does anyone wear RAF uniform any more?
You should see family night in the mess where I attend an annual reunion. My jaw did slacken off slightly the first time I saw it but I'm sort of accustomed to it now ;)

[WH904]

It's quite amazing that after watching it, I asked a friend (who knows nothing about aeroplanes) if he was any more informed about how the RA fly their displays, what it actually involves, or how difficult it is. You can guess his reply. The only salient comments I heard from him were "3g, you can get that at Alton Towers" (during that toe-curling, inaccurate description of roll backs), and "oh right, a free holiday then" when the team set-off to Akrotiri. So I guess the programme achieved absolutely nothing, other than wasting even more license money.

It was full of misleading commentary, devoted far too much time to the obsessive "jeopardy" of the PDA (one assumes they would have liked the team to practice against the clock if it had been possible - and have a fashion makeover too), and didn't even manage to show much quality photography. Most of the photography was pretty tame, and the aerial stuff was a combination of stock imagery, or new stuff that was edited into tiny clips that seemed pointless. Even the "demonstration" footage was shot very poorly (was that really the best in-cockpit view they could manage?), and then it was ruined by pointless (and confusing) slow motion, and a dumb (inaccurate) commentary.

No matter how you looked at it, the programme was just as naff as I expected it to be. Sad truth is that TV people are incapable of producing anything worthwhile on any aviation subjects. Reason is simple - the producers of these programmes and the people who commission them know nothing about the subject, so they turn every programme into standard television fare - jeopardy, perceived (or manufactured) excitement, people/family stories, etc. They treat every subject in the same way because they're incapable of working in any other way.

It's remarkable that an iconic subject such as the Reds is handled so poorly. I guess it's just as remarkable that a lot of people sit-back and say "that was good" when it patently wasn't. License money wasted once again, and the Reds denied the kind of coverage that they deserve.

[Genstabler]

Why so negative? Perhaps the AOC was in a grow bag because it is all about flying, he is a pilot and, while out there, flew with them. Indeed, despite being a chopper pilot, I gather he did quite well while gaining insight in the back seat of a synchro and enjoyed it enormously.

[WH904]

Negative because what I saw and heard was rubbish. If it had been brilliant (pardon the pun) then I would happily say so. I don't understand your comments about the AOC though?

Think Rossian mentions a salient point - I've also flown a few displays with the Reds and I have told the guys to their faces that they are a victim of their own success - they make it look easy and as a result the public have no idea of how difficult their job is. Last night's show did nothing to change that in any way.

[Genstabler]

"I don't understand your comments about the AOC though?"

I was replying to 1.3VSTALL's comment about the AOC in a grow bag, not to you WH904. I wouldn't want to reinforce your pessimism. :O

[WH904]

haha, fair enough, I don't need any encouragement, the Beeb gives me all that I need :)

[Inshala]

The AOC flew on 3 of the 5 sorties over the 2 days. Need a flying suit to do that.

[VictorGolf]

With regard to failing the PDA, wasn't Ray Hanna brought back to lead the Reds the year after he had left? Not quite the same thing but standards are obviously monitored.

[Al R]

WH,

The programme was pitched at a mid evening audience, folk who want to see how their tax is being spent.

In the main, it achieved that and although you can argue and nip around the ankles about production values (as I did), if the lady in my post office is anything to go by, she told me she loved it. If the aim of the BBC is to educate, inform and entertain in equal measure, the box was well and truly ticked - I quite liked the fact that debriefs are all done in the third person or anonymously - I didn't know that.

The special effects were restrained and although some of the dialogue and exchanges were a little bit hammy, so what? The editorial objective again, was to give the public a broad, high level insight into how some public employees earn their public salaries, not the detail. I don't think it was aimed at an in-house market - isn't that what SSVC is/was for?

Let's just be glad that we have a great team we can be proud of - let's not confuse that with an assesment of how the BBC does its job - let's not lose sight of what's important. The AOC seemed a decent bloke to me - and excuse my fascination with the intangible, but based on one of two moments in the hour, I think I identified an aspiring Red 1. ;)

[Clockwork Mouse]

I've also flown a few displays with the Reds and I have told the guys to their faces.....

Got it! You're a journo.

[melmothtw]

...they make it look easy and as a result the public have no idea of how difficult their job is.

I think the opposite is true, and that the reason the Reds are admired is precisely because the public understands just how hard it must be for them to make it look so easy.

If people thought it really was easy, no one would bother to watch.

[WH904]

she told me she loved it

I think that's the fundamental problem with programmes of this nature. The production motivation is to ensure that the viewer enjoys the programme. But perceived enjoyment is now created at the expense of information. The programme makers are terrified of doing anything that isn't guaranteed to capture the interest of people with the attention span of a goldfish and the intelligence of a dog. It's an insult to the viewing public to portray all viewers as being stupid.

I agree that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that we actually got a documentary on RAFAT onto the TV - that in itself is an achievement. But it is disappointing that yet another opportunity has been wasted. The Beeb had the most fascinating, exciting and photogenic subject at their disposal and the results were predictably dull.

Clockwork, no I'm not a journalist although I don't know what my occupation has to do with any of this? :)

Melmothtw I take your point but I honestly don't think that's true. You only have to watch the audience at an air show to see what happens. The broader public haven't got a clue. It's quite comical how the Team Manager now invites the spectators to wave as the formation goes by - and they actually do. Think that speaks volumes for how clueless most spectators are. I doubt if they'll be any more informed after last night :)

[melmothtw]

WH904, in essence your beef seems to be that the BBC makes programmes people enjoy viewing, and the Red Arrows perform displays that people enjoy viewing also.

[Clockwork Mouse]

They would not undergo PDA assessment unless Red1 and the chain of command were confident they were ready. If they ever do fail PDA then I presume it is rescheduled until they are up to the required safe standard. As well as causing red faces, that will involve cancelling early public displays and finding somewhere where the weather is dependable to continue training as the Cyprus authorities limit the number of flying days they can have at Akrotiri. The consequent expense would be eye watering.

So achieving PDA really is a major hurdle and stresser for all involved, team and CoC, but particularly for the new guys. That is what this film set out to show, and it succeeded admirably in my view.

Well done the Reds! And well done the BBC (for once)!

[Al R]

WH,

I think the fact that an aged lady enjoyed and loved it.. isn't really a problem to get worked up about! The BBC had to encapsulate 6 months into 60 minutes. She has a chemistry degree from Cambridge and worked a lifetime for BP and DuPont btw, hardly canine or goldfish levels of acumen or intelligence. I concede, there was no CGI (Christ, we didn't need it!), there was no cocky cockers induced kebab house craic and there was no insight into wacky Biggles-esque personality. But you have to place the programmes's objectives into a wider arc, I can imagine what sort of thinking went into financial constraints and the pre production and commissioning discussions.

When this hour was signed off, it would have been in the aftermath of two deaths and a very public mauling. The objectives from the RAF would have (I am sure) been very specific, they would have been to allow an insight into business as normal and yes, we got some engineering and safety focus that maybe we wouldn't have got 25 or 40 years ago. We didn't need to see the fine detail, things are slowly getting back to normal, wounds are being licked and folk are recovering slowly. It was almost an hour of holding tv - and for once, none the worse for it. We didn't want to lose sight of the fact that two very fine fliers had died, that a toll had been extracted on their and other's lives.

It wasn't a celebratory hour, it wasn't trumpet blowing glorification - we are recovering from Afghan and RAFAT now has to fight for its place. This was neutral telly that struck a nice fine line between two sides of a debate. It was marker in the sand stuff that would have placed the bean counters into a state of emotional limbo - there was nothing to draw a conclusion about except the fact this was serious business and that ladies in post offices all over the country love the Reds. This isn't about appealing to a few who needed more than a casual insight to fuel their geeky or wonky insight, this was about something far bigger and far more important. This is business.

[WH904]

WH904, in essence your beef seems to be that the BBC makes programmes people enjoy viewing, and the Red Arrows perform displays that people enjoy viewing also.

I'd agree with that assertion apart from the absence of one word - some. It would be wildly naive to assume that everyone enjoys the garbage that the Beeb currently churns out. The vast majority patently don't, hence the growing objection to the license fee. Even some of the Beeb's former stars are freely commenting on the lamentable state of the corporation's production processes that stifle anything good and worthwhile.

[WH904]

This is business.

A very pertinent point. Of course it shouldn't be. The whole point of the BBC is to enshrine the very opposite ethos... and yet...

[Al R]

Well, we both have different perspectives, outlooks and approaches I guess. Fair enough. :cool:

[Clockwork Mouse]

Very well put Al R.

[NutLoose]

Inside the Bubble

Does sound very used condomish

It was a shame when demonstrating the rolling techniques etc that they didn't have a camera facing fwd, as used in the take off scenes.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Hanging off the end of your bolt perhaps?

[WH904]

It's interesting to see how people look on this issue very differently to others. I don't doubt for a minute that the programme was enjoyable and entertaining for the main audience. But as I mentioned before, the Beeb is supposed to be providing more than that.

The very nature of the BBC's remit means that a documentary such as this should have set out to explain to the viewer what the RAFAT are all about, what they actually do and, fundamentally, how they manage to put nine Hawks into the air and fly them in perfect formation. They failed in almost every respect. It is symptomatic of the BBC's current state that the production team opted to obsess about two fatalities (as if the team haven't had any others), a ridiculous "jeopardy" issue over the PDA, and the usual "touchy, feely" interviews that are easy to create (one points a camera and a microphone), that add nothing to the programme. It fills the available space but does it inform anyone? No.

It's laziness pure and simple, combined with the BBC's stifling terror of producing anything that doesn't tick all the proverbial boxes in terms of excitement, popularity and attention-getting. It is puerile. One could expect it from Sky or Channel 5, but we're talking about the BBC here. It's a sorry state of affairs!

[melmothtw]

Abe Lincoln said it better than I could; “You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”

[Genstabler]

"I don't doubt for a minute that the programme was enjoyable and entertaining for the main audience".

In that case it achieved its aim, laudably. It wasn't intended to be a training video or an instructional aid. It painted for its chosen audience a realistic, entertaining and positive picture of RAFAT training up to PDA.

I didn't notice an obsession with the two fatalities either. They were mentioned briefly and in context. Don't forget that there are still members of the team who were there when they happened and they have pulled themselves back up to reach the standard that they are now at.

[Sandy Parts]

Re any strange actions in the film, don't blame the Reds - sometimes the TV producers ask for stuff to be done differently to make it more "viewer friendly". Recall making a 999 documentary in the sim to recreate a SAR-flight. A couple of us were asked to "move a few switches and knobs" to make it look "more interesting" (The cheek of it :p) Of course, we heartily complied meaning the resulting clips looked like our kit needed a three-armed paper hanger to manage! Kept the BBC crew happy.

[WH904]

Sandy I certainly don't blame the Reds for any of it - I feel rather sorry for them that their co-operation resulted in such a dull programme.

Genstabler I refer you to my previous comments. Bearing in mind the remit of the BBC, it patently did not achieve its aim. Well, I guess it did achieve its aim, but the whole problem is that the aim is wrong! :)

[622]

Enjoyed the show, but one question....


They get given (and well deserved) their nice new shiny red / blue suits...and then proceed to throw each other in the sea. Does all the sea water have an adverse effect on the material?


Can they simply be washed?

[melmothtw]

I don't doubt for a minute that the programme was enjoyable and entertaining..

resulted in such a dull programme.

Make your mind up WH904!

What Lincoln failed to say in his quote was; "There's no pleasing some people."

[Bismark]

i am not well known for my positive comments on the RAF...however I think I must have been watching a different programme to most of you above. The programme was:

Good viewing and enjoyable.
Crammed in many positive messages about the RAF and life in the Services.
Demonstrated professionalism, skill and team spirit.
Role of pilots, ops support and groundcrew.
Covered the pressures on home life.
Showed normal aircrew, rather than a bunch of prima donnas.
Covered the problems of the new recruits...one finding it easy, the other not (look at the stress in his face)
Showed some of the manoeuvres
AOC 22Gp seemed normal and balanced - prob because he was RW!

One message....grow bags only look good on those who are blessed to be taller than 6', score excellent in their fitness test and wear decent shades (unlike Red 1's glasses).

I think the viewing public would have loved the programme.

[WH904]

Make your mind up WH904!
Semantics, Sir :) I'm sure you know what I'm saying, if you read what I've said. As Bismark says above, the viewing public doubtless loved it, so the Beeb and the Reds are doubtless happy. But as I've explained at length, that really wasn't my point :)

[MPN11]

The AOC flew on 3 of the 5 sorties over the 2 days. Need a flying suit to do that.

I tentatively apologise to AOC, although changing out of flying clothing when not flying is surely not a great imposition? :p

[Tigger_Too]

Have the Reds ever failed PDA? What happens in that event?

1984? Not so much a 'fail' as a DNCO after Curly Hurst 'fell' out of his aircraft at the bottom of an opposition pair loop at Akronelli during the work-up. He was OK, but not fit to fly for a while. IIRC the first several (12?) displays of the season were cancelled while they worked up a replacement pilot - and presumably passed a PDA mid-season.

[just another jocky]

I tentatively apologise to AOC, although changing out of flying clothing when not flying is surely not a great imposition?

The rest of us don't so why should he? He's earned the right to wear the flying suit and IMHO, he can wear it whenever he chooses.

Don't understand the bitchiness over it. :confused:

[Genstabler]

WH904

"Well, I guess it did achieve its aim, but the whole problem is that the aim is wrong!"

You couldn't make it up!

[WH904]

Genstabler maybe try reading and comprehending what I've actually said? Just a thought...

[Rossian]

.....but WTH.

I have NOT flown with the Reds but I did do a swop with the Hawk standards pilot who had come out with them. I got an hour with an incredibly polite ex bona mate who kept calling me "Sir" (must have been the grey hair and zimmer frame) and the other chap got 6hrs lowlevel in a Nimrod. I thought it was brilliant and he seemed to have had a nice day too.

The then Air Commode, an ex-Lightning chap? had flown out with the standards mate in Red11 I think and went off for a potter on his own and had to be "rescued".
Olympus radar were on the ball.

The lad practiced his bits of the routines and we did a practice div to Paphos and I tried a roller we then went low level and looked at ships so he got some idea of maritime stuff. All in all a smashing morning out. That's the air force I enjoyed.

The Ancient Mariner

[Minnie Burner]

If we accept WT's pitch that the show was typical of the Beeb's current output, who would he choose to do a better job?
Channel 5? (too much of the white-cube graphics?)
Channel 4? (too intrusive and way off-message)
Disco Channel? (no-one would watch it till it was on Dave)
Martin Scorcese? (hmmm, sepia: nice)
Quentin Tarantino? (too much red, no jets left at the end)

You try....

MB

PS Mike Lloyd's swansong & last chance to wear the bag on telly? Leave him be. But that 60s mo' must go.

[MPN11]

The rest of us don't so why should he? He's earned the right to wear the flying suit and IMHO, he can wear it whenever he chooses.
Don't understand the bitchiness over it.

Oooh ... should I respond? Can he spell 'jockey'? Have we been here before?

I now understand. A flying suit is, in fact, a badge of merit. A furgling great badge of sweat-stained merit that says "I'm one of THEM".
Super.
Glad that's cleared up.

Back to the programme. :mad:

[Genstabler]

Chips are appearing on shoulders!

[WH904]

Minnie I don't imagine there is any prospect of anyone doing a better job. I think we're stuck with what we've got. If anyone was to invest the money and effort into a truly intelligent and informative look at the Reds, the TV companies would never take it as they'd judge it to be unexciting and unsuitable for the people they seem to cater for.

It's just regrettable that the Beeb - the one institution that was intended to stand firmly against this kind of tosh - is now one of the key offenders.

[melmothtw]

Perhaps you should pen a strongly worded letter to Points-of-View WH904; "Why oh why oh why...?"

[just another jocky]

Oooh ... should I respond? Can he spell 'jockey'? Have we been here before?

I now understand. A flying suit is, in fact, a badge of merit. A furgling great badge of sweat-stained merit that says "I'm one of THEM".
Super.
Glad that's cleared up.

Back to the programme. :mad:

Like I said.....don't understand the bitchiness.

[dragartist]

Well I really enjoyed the programme it gave an insight into how hard these guys work to perfect the display. I am not usually that big a fan of the Reds as with the austerity we suffered there were more important things to spend £6M a year on. (This view is based on the fact that most of my projects were <£10M and several were canned as savings measures - some would have made lives of our guys in the sandpit better)


A couple of times I wanted to reach over and give the drogue shackle a wiggle. I think they dealt with this issue sensitively particularly the closing shot of the memorial in the heart.


I share the concerns off 662 at #60 knowing how much the red grow bags cost with the embroidery. Yes they probably do wash but each wash degrades the material. I know salt does have a detrimental effect on the material from my experience of parachutes and the extensive/expensive testing I once commissioned.


Not sure why AOC did not qualify for a special measure grow bag. I noted the baggy ar$e but FFS I did not appreciate it would dominate the discussion on here.

[1.3VStall]

jaj,

He's earned the right to wear the flying suit

Cobblers! He's just too feckin' idle to change back into uniform after a sortie. Standards, my dear chap!

[MPN11]

Cobblers! He's just too feckin' idle to change back into uniform after a sortie. Standards, my dear chap!
Perhaps Air Officers don't perspire? ;)

Anyway, having contributed to the diversion of the topic, I am interested to read the views of 'those who know things'.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Having had two as students on their refresher courses (an A/C, Commandant designate of CFS and an AVM, Commandant des. of RAFC) I can assure you they do ! Great guys to fly with though !

C'mon guys, relax, this prog. was not aimed at us, but I actually enjoyed it with some great airborne photography !!

Reminded me too of just how hard these guys work and this year's displays are probably the best have seen, and I have been watching the Reds since they were yellow !

[MSOCS]

Just like the other Reds thread, this one has fully derailed into school yard bickering and asinine comments.

You should be proud! PPRuNe strikes again!

[NutLoose]

Or Black, but that's no longer a PC colour, so Yellow it is ;)

[fincastle84]

I served as a Nav on Shacks & Nimrods for 27 happy years & I thoroughly enjoyed the programme which reminded me yet again of my pride in the RAF.

I watched in awe the skill displayed by the pilots & it also brought back so many happy memories of the camaraderie we shared with our own ground crew.

Bloody good progamme, very many thanks to the Reds, Blues & the BBC.:ok:

[BEagle]

An excellent programme within the constraints of providing a factional documentary which would appeal to core BBC2 audiences, although perhaps less to spotters, uniform-watchers, flying clothing police....or people who name themselves after ancient jet bombers....:hmm:

The 'toe-curling' :rolleyes: description of the roll-back was about as simple as could be explained to the core audience. There's nothing special in pulling +3~+4g in a high G barrel roll, but there definitely is so when it's being flown at low level in close vicinity to others in the formation in synch with another mate. The barrel roll has killed many unskilled pilots and the fact that the Team can fly such manoeuvres skilfully and consistently speaks volumes.

I'm not a fan of the new tail markings and to be honest the Gnat was much prettier - but in their 50th season, RAFAT showed themselves to be true professionals in last night's programme.

[Thelma Viaduct]

I thought it was good viewing, the pressure must be immense. With ref. to the saggy arse, I'd personally rather have the room than no room. :ok:

[WH904]

Would I be right in guessing there's a certain pejorative use of the term "spotter" by some Pprune users? Although I've never indulged in plane spotting I do know from first-hand experience that many serving personnel often know a whole lot less than "spotters" do. Let's not fall into the trap of believing that service experience always necessarily bestows knowledge or wisdom ;)

As for the description of the roll back manoeuvre, I think that was the problem - it was too simple. It told the viewer absolutely nothing.

[NutLoose]

Enjoyed the show, but one question....


They get given (and well deserved) their nice new shiny red / blue suits...and then proceed to throw each other in the sea. Does all the sea water have an adverse effect on the material?


Can they simply be washed?



As an ex RAF Engineer I can categorically state that the Engineers do indeed wash, not 100% sure about the pilots though, one has smelt some really wiffy ones in my time.

:p



.

[ACW418]

WH904

There is a an expression "When you have made the sale stop selling"

You made a good pitch though not everyone bought it - take the advice.

ACW

[teeteringhead]

As an ex RAF Engineer I can categorically state that the Engineers do indeed wash, not 100% sure about the pilots though, one has smelt so really wiffy ones in my time. :ok: Excellent Nutloose

That's just the sort of banter we should have in this virtual crewroom, rather than the exercise of shoulder chips and (WTF!) bringing in the North British SweatFest.

As an old-ish and cynical-ish aviator who has worked with the Reds on occasion (Red 10's rotary taxi!) in both Gnat and Hawk times, I thought it was a very good effort. More importantly (much more in the context of the BBC), Milady Teeters was enthralled, when she is normally bored witless by anything to do with flying ...... :( [which probably dates from a LGN early in our relationship, when the conversation from the guy next to her was exclusively on spinning the Hunter!]

Good to see one of my studes has done good too .......... ;)

[tartare]

Just watched it online - very good.
You're all being a bit harsh about that roll thing - you really wouldn't want to balls that up.
And having had all of 10 minutes stick time on the Hawk myself, I can vouch for it being a twitchy little beast.
Amused me to note yet again how fast jet pilots all speak very quickly when they're relaying a huge list of absolutely essential life or death instructions.
Like LAX air traffic controllers.
Wouldn't this be the one time in life you'd want to speak VERY SLOWLY AND CLEARLY!
Cos of course everything happens very quickly in a fast jet. ;)
Oh do keep up Red six...

[Autobahnstormer]

VG

Ray Hannah returned to the Lead of the Red Arrows after an 'Incident' that occurred at a display in RAFG.

ABS

[VictorGolf]

ABS, care to expand a little? Was the incident "flying" or "social"?

[Wander00]

Just noticed that the programme is being repeated on Friday evening

[pontifex]

VG

Don't go there!

[RAFEngO74to09]

For those not in the UK who want to see it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KlStllnBFU

[Davef68]

Thought the program was well done, and showed the RAF and the Red Arrows ina positive light - which can't be bad!

I hadn't noticed before that the RAFAT now has an Officer Commanding, as well as the Leader, Supervisor and Team manager.

[Archimedes]

VG -

The reappearance of RH was covered on Pprune about 5 years ago and you might find appropriate answers on there

[Edited because I found the thread and there was entirely reasonable comment that naming the chap concerned was unfair, and I wouldn't wish to cause offence by posting a link to a report which names him, no matter how anodyne the comment therein]

[Flying Lawyer]

I thought the documentary was excellent.
One thing that struck me was that it reflected what I'd seen for myself, rather than being an artificial 'made for television' version. In March this year I had the great privilege of spending the day with the Arrows during which I sat in on pre-sortie briefs, watched 'Enid' (Reds 1-5) practising roll-backs and other formations, attended de-briefs while the pilots watched video footage of the sorties during which 'full and frank' constructive criticisms/suggestions were made and the more experienced members offered advice to the new members.
It was an important day for the team - they flew their first nine-ship formation of the year.

Like some others here, I would have found more 'technical' information very interesting but the programme was made for a wider audience than pilots/aviation enthusiasts.
Does it matter whether the AOC was wearing flying kit or uniform? :confused:

What came across in the programme was the intense preparation, dedication, professionalism and constant strive for excellence which have been hallmarks of the team since its inception. I've focussed on the flying aspects but was equally impressed by the professionalism and dedication of the support personnel without whom there would be no displays - the team spirit is not limited to the nine display pilots.

Al RIf you dissected how RAFAT flies compared to other teams, what is the difference, why is RAFAT deemed to be the benchmark that others aspire to? Do teams have different approaches to what they are trying to deliver?
Rossian/Ancient Mariner has already answered the question. I hope I may be permitted, as a civvy, to add some further information.

The late Raymond Baxter, WW2 Spitfire pilot and legendary aviation and other outside broadcast commentator, told me that Red Arrows displays changed when Ray Hanna was promoted to Leader in their second year (1966). He brought "style and panache" into their already widely admired displays, “a new element of spectacle and artistry to display aerobatics.”
Baxter mentioned two significant changes introduced by Hanna:
(1) The team flew as if it was one big aircraft.
They flew closer formations, the distance between aircraft varying between 10 and 4 feet, depending upon the manoeuvre being flown.

(2) A flowing display without long intervals.
Whereas the highlights of previous and contemporary formation aerobatics displays here and abroad were achieved at the expense of intervals of empty sky while the team repositioned, Ray Hanna's underlying philosophy was that each manoeuvre should flow seamlessly into the next.

Baxter recalled that the transformation wasn’t gradual - the Red Arrows almost instantly became a star attraction across the world. His assessment of Hanna's contribution was confirmed to me by members of the team who flew under Hanna's leadership: Henry Prince (who, like Hanna, had been a member of the 1965 team), 'Dinger' Bell, Dickie Duckett and Ian Dick. Dickie Duckett, who led the team a decade later, said: “Ray had an instinctive feel for display flying." Ian Dick, who flew under Hanna’s leadership in 1968 and 1969, and was Leader 1972-74 said: ‘He was my role model. He was simply the best.’ I can't now remember which of Hanna's team told me, but a constant theme in his briefings was: "If the crowd have time to lick their ice creams we aren’t doing our job properly.”
Today’s displays still conform to the template he developed in the 1960s.

Today's Red Arrows continue the great legacy they inherited and continue to enthral and inspire millions of people both in the UK and around the world. Synchronised close formation aerobatics and breathtaking sequences by the Synchro Pair quickly earned the Red Arrows the reputation as the world's premier aerobatic team – a position they still retain in this their 50th display season. They have overcome the recent terrible tragedies - which some current members of the team witnessed - and produce magnificent displays which not only enthral and inspire but do more than justice to their predecessors.

We are entitled to be, and IMHO should be, proud that a British team is unarguably one of the finest aerobatic display teams in the world, and arguably the best.


FL




Edit

The reappearance of RH was covered on PPRuNe about 5 years ago and you might find appropriate answers on there

Link: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/384694-red-arrows-missing-leader.html

[Al R]

FL,

Thanks, Jenson Button drives differently to Lewis Hamilton, it's all about interpretation. I wonder if there was a bit of Big Wing throwback thinking in there too, steering things.

The business of Ray Hanna returning was covered in Flying at the Edge (20 Years of Front-Line and Display Flying in the Cold War) By Tony Doyle. Page 309 refers, you have to ask yourself if the matter would be handled any differently now! It's a book well worth buying.

Flying at the Edge: 20 Years of Front-Line and Display Flying in the Cold ... - Tony Doyle - Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PTPAAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=ray+hanna+relead+red+arrows&source=bl&ots=X72gI3wzpT&sig=fVJWmm5FVahSbAd_Kk3IXCD8pcI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZgrYU4GgEuTW0QX7g4DYBA&ved=0CDwQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=ray%20hanna%20relead%20red%20arrows&f=false)

[Wander00]

Interesting book, but bit of a nightmare to read, smallest font I have ever seen used in a book

[Al R]

You could have had mine but I had a system induced inventory realignment recently, something about ".. you're such a hoarder." :(

Well worth a crafty buy though.

[Wander00]

AlR - spend my life fighting inventory realignment at instigation of SHWMBO. Does not seem to apply to "home beautiful" magazines though............
I have Tony's book, but find it a difficult read with the tiny font - might just be the edition I have, but it is a long book and maybe publisher was trying to save paper. Might have been an easier read with tighter editing and a font a couple of points larger.

[BOAC]

Just a little confused by the extract from Tony Doyle's book - who are 'Austin Jones' and 'Fred Gordon'?

[Tray Surfer]

I thought it was an absolutely superb program and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I was very lucky to meet, and be in the audience of a talk and presentation given by Ruth Shackleton, the Team Manager in May of this year. She presented to a group of Private and Corporate Cabin Crew/Flight Attendants in Geneva the day before EBACE and it was, quite frankly, one of the best presentations and talks I have ever seen… Absolutely brilliant.

[WH904]

Reading back through the comments, I get the feeling that some people seem to think that I was criticising RAFAT. I didn't say that at all. I also get the impression that some people think I'm not in a position to even have a view. I have spent a lot of time with the Red Arrows - I've flown on chase sorties alongside the formations, I've flown back seat in quite a few full displays in lead, wing and rear positions. I've sat through many debriefings, stayed on base in the Mess, interviewed the pilots etc. So I think it fair to say that I have a fairly clear view of what the team is really like. I'm not just conjuring-up a view from nowhere.

I still think that if one takes an objective look at the documentary, it is clear to see how poor it was. Aside from the points I've mentioned before, even the most fundamental points were completely overlooked. Was any attempt made to explain how a display routine is put together and how each pilot holds formation with the others? Nope. Did the programme illustrate just how busy a typical day is for the pilots? Nope. More importantly, did the programme illustrate just how brutal the display flying is for the pilot, and how incredibly difficult it is to maintain such a polished performance that looks so clean and tidy from the ground? Nope. Incredibly, even the famous smoke generators were mentioned but not explained. Showing someone polishing the pipes isn't information, it's just lazy programme-making.

It was contemporary television at its worst. The Reds deserve much better. It's easy to just say "I liked it very much" as if that's some sort of answer. Liking it doesn't mean it was any good. If it didn't inform the viewer then what is the point of it? Look at the incredible effort and attention that is devoted to Attenborough's nature programmes and then look at that awful Red Arrows programme ;)

[Pittsextra]

The barrel roll has killed many unskilled pilots
and a few very skilled and experienced pilots too, including a company test pilot....

[BOAC]

Can any 'followers' cast any light on post#102 - 'Austin Jones' and 'Fred Gordon'? Not names I know - and not in the mid-air.

[Parson]

WH904 - agree with that. Previous programme @ 25th anniversary was much better.

[treadigraph]

Can any 'followers' cast any light on post#102 - 'Austin Jones' and 'Fred Gordon'?

BOAC, I read Tony Doyle's book a few months back and I seem to recall he had changed some names - pretty sure there's an explanation in the preface? (I'm possibly thinking of another book though!)

[Archimedes]

BOAC - he explains in the intro that he has no wish to criticise specific individuals and thus changed the names (all of them, I think), selecting pseudonyms from a phone book. There is an apology to those who know the individuals (or, by implication, who think 'I'm sure that isn't my name'), and he concludes 'to those who would have liked to have seen their names in print, I apologize, and refer them respectfully to those who are perhaps glad they did not'.

[BOAC]

Thanks - that explains it! I thought I was in a parallel universe for a moment.

[Flying Lawyer]

Jerry AtrickThe 1969 leader issue is fully explained in the 'bookazine' and the displaced team leader (................) has his spot. There is nothing to hide and his name still graces the team's leader board in the reception area in the hangar at Scampton.
His name (which I've deleted in the quote) is on the board at Scampton, but it does not appear as a former Team Leader in the list on the Red Arrows website which is made available for anyone to read. RAF Red Arrows - Roll of honour (http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/50thdisplayseason/rollofhonour.cfm)I didn't get to contact him personallySo you didn't obtain his views.

"fully explained"?
If you don't understand why he was embarrassed and why he would prefer the matter not to be resurrected then what you describe as your "time-limited research" clearly didn't uncover the full story.

I wonder about your motive for posting the name here - except to obtain free advertising for your 'bookazine'.

[Jerry Atrick]

Flying lawyer,

My post was about the fictitious Austin Jones - despite Tony Doyle's book preface, I don't understand why he decided to change names of those that died serving with the team.

I was tasked to produce a history of the Red Arrows within a four-month deadline, and 1969 is an important part of the story. I did speak to guys that flew with the disposed leader and they were generally supportive that he didn't get a fair crack of the whip, and that lessons were learned that shaped future team policy. As he led about 20 displays, he deserves his place in the history books.

There is much on the internet about the subject, so it's not a hidden secret. Anyway, end of subject as far as I am concerned.

[Nige321]

Does anyone know if the documentary will be repeated??? Everything else on the BBC is...:E

[Wander00]

Repeated tomorrow, Friday, on BBC2

[Nige321]

Thanks W00...:ok:

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KlStllnBFU

[Courtney Mil]

Thanks! w00 and RAFEng. I'd like to see it.

[kaitakbowler]

As a young airman I was stationed at Watershambles in '65. The RAFAT turned up to rehearse with 111 prior to the Paris Salon. Is my recollection of 111 trying to copy the Red's opposition rolls correct? ISTR they looked pretty spectacular, not to mention dodgy. I think the staish(?) called a halt to them.

Any participants on here?

PM

[Wander00]

BBC 2, 1930 UK time


W

[MightyGem]

Impressive, as always. :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

It's easy to just say "I liked it very much" as if that's some sort of answer.

I liked it very much!

I notice the aircraft were referred to as "jets" throughout, and not just by the presenter. This jarred at first, but I assume that for display commentary purposes "jets" is simpler than "aircraft".

(Yes, I know they are jets ;))

[longer ron]

Quite normal just to refer to jet aircraft as 'Jets' - that is not a 'Reds' affectation TTN.

rgds LR

[Tankertrashnav]

Must be a new thing, spent 7 years flying in "jets" and don't ever remember them being referred to as such - always aircraft. However, things change, 30 years earlier we'd have been talking about "kites"!

[Genstabler]

I suspect that jets refers to the little pointy ones, the sports cars of the sky, not to the bumbling multiengine busses which are more aircraft.

[Courtney Mil]

I've finally seen the object of all the consternation and I have to say that some of you are being very critical (as is your right, obviously.). It certainly opened my eyes. Bloody good, I thought. I withdraw my lifelong comment of "Well, they should be good at it when they do it all the time."

The programme was well pitched for flyers and the public alike.

As for "jets", that's what they've always been called as long as I can recall.

[Kluseau]

Programme had a few interesting insights but in general was poor compared to the 25th anniversary programme in '89.... if you can remember that far back...

Was that the one that opened to the sound track of Pink Floyd's "Echoes"? Or was the one I'm thinking of an even earlier documentary about the Reds? I have a sense it featured the Gnat, which would place it at least a decade earlier if I'm right.

Hm... This isn't quite what I was thinking of, but it's a rather stunning documentary of the Reds from 1967 I turned up while looking:
Arthur Gibson: Red Arrows Promotional Video - Gnat [1967] - YouTube

Reminds me of my first sight of them at Binbrook in 1972-ish at a families day display or something of the sort. They approached from the south, and flew in extremely low over the line of hangars. The abiding memory is of seeing the entire control tower staff duck in unison.

[BEagle]

Originally Posted by Parson:

Programme had a few interesting insights but in general was poor compared to the 25th anniversary programme in '89.... if you can remember that far back...

That would be Red Arrows - A Quiver of Silver shown on BBC1 in 1990. It does indeed include Lee Jones describing the early days of The Yellowjacks, amongst other things.

The Team was led by Tim Miller and many famous faces are in the programme. Brian Hoskins was the Stn Cdr at Akrotiri during the winter work-up.

Lee Jones' description of the Gnat fuse 13 saga is a classic!

Fortunately my VHS copy has survived and is now saved to DVD. No, I won't be making any other copies

[Wander00]

Beags- around that time the team had a very enterprising Manager (Andy Stewart, who went on to be CO of ULAS) and Tim Miller as Red 1. It was around that time they had a famous Japanese film maker with an unpronounceable name make a film of the team - it was absolutely brilliant - that might be the one to which you refer. I was lucky enough to be involved with the Team as a Trustee of the RA Trust. Happy times.

[BOAC]

Kluseau - good find, thanks. In the 70's it was really the only film (Super 8!!) we could take to the many 'talks'/presentations' we did for colleges, clubs etc and despite poor old Arthur's 'continuity lapses' it was always well received.

[betty swallox]

MPN11

Is your beef about this programme, the fact that the AOC "could have changed out of his flying suit"??!!

Really??

Really??

REALLY??!!

Oh, FFS. Why oh why do folks post such tripe.

THE PROGRAMME IS ABOUT THE R E D A R R O W S.

NOT the AOC's wardrobe.

I give up...


If your comment is ironic, I'm afraid it's lost on me

[goudie]

In the early '80's I used a film of the Red Arrows to kick off my company's annual business seminar. It certainly impressed the attendees, to the extent that, for some days afterwards some managers would end any instructions to their staff with a sharp 'GO!'

[Treble one]

Interesting take off in the Gnat there...appropriately Hanna-esque

[Wander00]

I suspect their base height was somewhat lower than today's limit.


I never flew in the back seat of a Gnat - my great respect for instructors at Valley has increased ten-fold - and I apologise for frightening all of you!

[WH904]

Tankertrash I wasn't criticising anyone for liking the programme - each to his own and all that. My point was that from an objective viewpoint, the programme was a load of garbage. I'm glad to have subsequently learned that I'm not the only person who thought so. Naturally, just getting the Reds on TV is nice, but taking aside one's liking for aircraft or the Reds, the actual programme was rubbish. Could have been written/produced by a school kid. Don't know how the Beeb had the nerve to describe it as a documentary.

[Genstabler]

WH904
It was a documentary because it documented the start of the training season and the run up to PDA for two new RAFAT pilots. It did it well, sympathetically, without undue dramatisation but with enough to hold the public viewer's interest. It showed that the RAFAT pilots are normal young men with a special talent, not arrogant prima donnas, and that to achieve the required standard of flying requires incredible determination, commitment, nerve and above all teamwork.
It did not set out to be a documentary about RAFAT's history, how it is organised, administered and operated, which is presumably what you were hoping for.
We know your opinion of it. Of course you would have done it much better. Now PLEASE give it a rest.

[pbk]

I dont generally catch this sort of tv programme, and really only started watching as I couldn't find the remote. However, having deliberately avoided anything to do with the Red Arrows over the years, I was stunned, not only by the quality of the flying display, but also by the aerial photography.

Never keen on the modern 'reality tv' approach applied to tv documentries these days where there is always a phoney crisis just before the ad breaks etc (ok it was the beeb but you get the drift); poor wifey at home etc, and the worst crisis was a foot rest not retracting fully. I couldnt be made to care whether the new recruits passed or not, probably easier than getting thro the Lightning OCU and they still have an excellent future ahead of them.

My biggest surprise was the ground crew...... no 'Mustache Petes'; overalls that go all the way round, no sumpy shorts that have gone 3 dozen engine changes between washes, no oil saturated bondu boots, not a grease covered mitt to be seen squeezing a tea bag into a stained mug. no nude sunbathing down on the beach with a day-glo pig or whatever stuck on their backsides....it was Cyprus for heavens sake. Not a sign of a Green Rock induced hangover. In fact they made the AOC look the scruffiest geezer in the programme.

I cringed at the pongo-esque drill routine on the see-offs, simply doesnt look business-like,and as for removing ear defenders by numbers.......but my word,
I thought they where a credit to the unit.
I really hope that the relationship between the linies and the aircrew was as depicted, too often strained in my time.

Respect to the Reds, respect to the programme makers

[WH904]

Now PLEASE give it a rest.

How very rude. If you don't want to debate a point then don't.

You've made some sweeping assertions about what the documentary set-out to do. Obviously I should point out that your presumption of what I expected is wrong, but you'd know that if you'd bothered to read my previous posts. Likewise, you can't make any claims as to what the documentary set-out to do, because you did't make it. All any of us can do is make a judgement as viewers and license payers.

pbk it's interesting that you thought the aerial photography was good. As you said, you've avoided the subject for some years, so it's likely that your view was shared by a lot of viewers. The sad thing is, the aerial photography was actually rubbish. When one recalls some of the quality stuff that has been achieved in the past, the BBC stuff was awful. It was particularly sad that the lenses used gave the impression that the Hawks are some distance from each other during the display. None of the photography gave a real impression of how close the aircraft are, nor any impression of the continual (and often quite violent) movement that takes place. Fundamental points that any decent documentary should have tried to portray.

[goudie]

WH904 Of the 136 posts on this thread you have made 17. The next number of posts is 9!

May I suggest you've made your point.

As someone pointed out earlier, 'don't continue the sales chat after the sale is completed.'

[BOAC]

nor any impression of the continual (and often quite violent) movement that takes place. - always possible, of course, that the current team does not thrash about as much as we used to.......:D

[Steve the Pirate]

I agree with WH904 that the lenses didn't show the true proximity of the aircraft and an opportunity was missed to show the dynamic nature of the formation. On the whole though, I thought it was a pretty good show.

Good luck to the FNGs - they've got a great 3 and a bit years ahead of them.

STP

[WH904]

Oh well, another potentially interesting thread goes absolutely nowhere. PS- don't bother with the inevitable responses because I won't be reading them ;)

[Minnie Burner]

"Smoke on, go!" from 1983 is here:
Smoke On Go! The Red Arrows 1983 documentary - YouTube

2006 at Tanagra is here:
Red Arrows on 114?? ??????? - YouTube

Haven't found a link to the Raymond Baxter "hobbies include clock repairing" vid as yet.

My favourite Reds moments?

1. Very low, slow, smokey flypast in leader's benefit on a hot, humid day at Bentwaters around '73, right over the Blue Angels as they were opening their canopies in unison. It was several minutes before the smoke cleared and the Blues were still choking and in disarray.

2. Their departure from Chiv in '75(?) when 229OCU closed. We tried our hardest not to duck, but had to (a bit!).

Still think the Hawk would look better without the white stripe, A la Gnat.

The Uxbridge English dictionary defines 'jets' as an abbreviation of the nickname for the Patrouille de France, "Les Courgettes".
French schoolchildren are often heard at airshows shouting excitedly: "Cor, jets"

Anybody sat on WH yet? Oh, nevermind, too late.

[betty swallox]

WH904...

Yawn.....

[Vampiredave]

2. Their departure from Chiv in '75(?) when 229OCU closed. We tried our hardest not to duck, but had to (a bit!)

...are you sure of that particular event? BTW 229 OCU left for Brawdy on 3 August 1974

[Minnie Burner]

...are you sure of that particular event? BTW 229 OCU left for Brawdy on 3 August 1974............ OK, so it was '74 (yawn)

BTW yerself: How long (days will suffice) was 229 OCU at Brawdy?

[Vampiredave]

None, because it was disbanded upon arrival and renamed as Tactical Weapons Unit