Are all pilots @ EK so unhappy?

[Fitnesspilot737]

Firstly, I don't frequent this site too often. Usually, I come to it now and again looking for some information... with a very open mind. It is very difficult to attain information on various companies when I don't know anyone within these companies I am researching... so, I use the web.

When I look at all the EK threads I can't help but feel negativity from pilots post. Whether or not these pilots actually work for EK is not fully apparent. I am not sure whether or not this negativity is coming from actually working for the company themselves, or having to live in Dubai when you have a desire to be elsewhere.

What I would like to know is... are things there really as bad as some of you here portray? I see lots of positives from the package they offer and living in Dubai, itself. Saying that, I have never been to Dubai myself. Maybe the pilots that enjoy living and working in Dubai are not actually on this site, airing their views? Maybe they are down at the marina on their boats or off to the desert in their 4x4. Is anyone here content there? Thanks for reading.

[falconeasydriver]

hat I would like to know is... are things there really as bad as some of you here portray? I see lots of positives from the package they offer and living in Dubai, itself. Saying that, I have never been to Dubai myself. Maybe the pilots that enjoy living and working in Dubai are not actually on this site, airing their views? Maybe they are down at the marina on their boats or off to the desert in their 4x4. Is anyone here content there? Thanks for reading.

Its an interesting question, and one with many many different answers. I had a visit from a family member a few months ago, who expressed surprise that I'd moved my family back to the "civilized" world after a number of years here. My answer to the surprise expressed was to try and explain that for me the job is ok, in fact its not bad at all, yes there are issues..just like there are everywhere, but in a general sense if you do your job as expected you are left alone. Living here on the other hand was and still is a big challenge, certainly in the sense that there are a many many little things that cause frustration and contribute to my negative view of Dubai, the mindset of many of the individuals who live here and the expats contribute to this greatly. Its difficult to explain these frustrations and observations to someone who doesn't live here, but for me they have built up to a point where I am in essence completely disengaged from life here, yes I work here and I spend a night to two here, but in reality I go to work, land back in Dubai and then hop on the first plane out to get me home to my family where I can relax and enjoy life.
I hope that explains in some sense one persons viewpoint and doesn't come across as a moan or negativity, after all working here now and being away from family for periods of time is my choice.

[Calmcavok]

Maybe the pilots that enjoy living and working in Dubai are not actually on this site, airing their views?

Think you've hit the nail on the head there! Same old people airing their grievances on here if you look at the names. Some have valid points, but I for one enjoy it in Dubai.

[BeCareful]

I'll just say this... living in Dubai has only made me appreciate my home country all the more. Also, this insane increase in price of pretty much everything from basic food to real estate is quickly making staying in Dubai a case of bad math taking away one of the few remaining reasons/excuses for being here..

[thatwasclose]

Dubai is not bad at all. I have had lots of fun here. The company is generally not to bad, it's just the continuous erosion of our conditions when the company makes so much money that I find galling. I must confess that in the last 5 months I seem to have been working pretty hard . Lots of postives though about the job, just the negatives seem to be growing. I actually came on pprune just now to post a negative post about staff travel . I have never started a negative thread before .

[TransitCheck]

It's not so much that the JOB itself is bad. It is the policies/practices of the company in taking things away that causes the issues.

Items the company changed because they are cheap asses and don't care about your health or happiness:

1. Monthly hour increase to 92 hours (you work like a dog for not a lot extra)
2. Bonuses essentially gone
3. Staff travel reduced to nothing. Company so cheap it can't avail 5 seats a flight to staff whose Cat C rate is sometimes more than sale fares.
4. Assigning computer training duties at home rather than on "work" days
5. NO RAISES only step increases
6. They hired TCAS and AAR, who both dislike pilots, to be in charge of Pilots.

Other items:

1. Stupid rostering rules. Can't have more than 7 days in a row off, can't go to one destination more than 3 times a month, can't swap into overtime but they can roster you that way, unable to swap because everyone's hours are too high. WHY SHOULD THE COMPANY CARE WHAT WE DO AS LONG AS IT'S LEGAL, WE ARE PRODUCTIVE, and ALL THE TRIPS ARE STAFFED.

2. Bidding system that doesn't work because the company has loaded up the system with arbitrary stupid rules and a requirement that pilots must fly between 90 and 92 hours a month (an example...it may be between 83 and 85). The system HAS to assign you a roster between those hour blocks so it kicks your bid out to do just that.

3. Can't carry a cup of coffee while walking, have to use a certain flight bag, and other annoying little rules. We are not kindergartners, leave us alone and let us do our job and stop MICROMANAGING everything.

4. Having to read multiple changes in policy weekly because those in charge can't make up their mind. The company is constantly spamming your email with dumb little changes that don't really matter.

5. The company takes on the mind set that you screw up on purpose and you will continue to make errors unless you are punished. They can't seem to realize that mistakes just happen they are not made purposely. When you make a mistake, they can't just call you on the phone and ask for information. Most likely, you will go to the office and come home with some kindergarten style warning letter, caution letter, or verbal warning.

I'm sure there are more things.....bottom line is that if you want to see your Terms and Conditions eroded fairly significantly as the cost of living increases significantly and you enjoy being treated like a 2 year old with overbearing parents then come to Emirates.

[ExpatBrat]

Well I'm happy here. I've been here a fairly long time, too. Not as long as some but longer than most. I'm in the top 500 of a 3600+ pilot seniority list which is a nice place to be but I wasn't always of course. Every generation of pilots here pays their dues by being adversely affected by one policy change or another. There's nothing new about that.

I see all the negative stuff too but it's understandable I suppose. People have to vent. That's one reason.

Another is, it's just not for everyone. I'm always surprised at new guys who start complaining about the capricious rule changes and, let's say evolving work conditions. How could they come all the way over here and not know the company would do this? They always have and they always will. Understanding that fully should be part of anyone's research before they make the jump. I have a TRI friend who had a guy bitching about this and that, WHILE HE WAS STILL IN THE SIM ON HIS INITIAL COURSE!! I mean, wtf? My friend just paused the sim and told him that was enough. Too funny.

You just gotta remember why you came and keep asking yourself if you're getting it. You can't lose sight of your bottom line. You have to let the rest roll of your back. Otherwise, vote with your feet. It's really your only option.

That all being said, a little complaining is natural - it makes people feel better and I guess this is just a safe place to do it.

[airbusgirl66]

I think where one of the real issues lie, is hugely based upon what fleet your on. If your on the 330/340 fleet, you not only have to contend with all the issues of living in the middle east (which, as stated above, there are many that cannot be truly be understood unless you actually live here), but also for this fleet, dealing with all the $hit runs to war zones, night turns, crap layovers, reserve every 5 months-which also affect vacation bidding, more duty time than flight pay time, fatigue, and etc. erodes the purpose of ever coming here. Another huge point is...what country are you actually coming from? Both of my EK neighbors come from countries where there is serious physical safety concerns in their home country. So yes, for that reason (and the fact that they are both on the 777 makes them (and their wives) relatively happy to be in Dubai.

So IMHO, ESP AS A SINGLE PERSON, coming to EK on the triple 777 or 380 fleet, OR coming from a country where safety is an issue, OR where there are no decent paying jobs available …I'm thinking that life could be rather enjoyable and lucrative. Yes, there are definite downfalls about Dubai…but it's all relative.

Now on a personal note….YES, without a DOUBT my family would rather be in my home country, BUT this job pays the bills, my children are getting a good education, and overall it's what you make of it….and all of this is said WITH being on the crap 330 fleet. ;)

[Trader]

Fitnesspilot--- I would say that most are not terribly unhappy but certainly FRUSTRATED. I would go further and say that I think most pilots who have been here more than 3 or 4 years are at the point where they just don't care!!

There tend to be two issues for pilots here:

1) Dubai - Dubai not Europe, Oz or the US. It can be a frustrating place where it can be difficult to get things done (spend a morning and cross 2 things off your list and your doing well), where the driving is atrocious (though improved in the last few years).

Lots of other comments about it in these threads. But in general I think MOST pilots and families enjoy Dubai and what it offers.

2) Emirates itself.

Hmm, where to begin here. 99% of the posts you will read here on pprune, I believe, are accurate. The complaints are real, they affect pilots lives greatly and are something that have to be dealt with.
It isn't one issue in particular but the gradual degredation of one aspect, then another and another that have most pilots frustrated. The number one issue for most here is the 92 hours per month! Fly an EK sked for any length of time and you see that it becomes almost impossible to not spend your life being tired.

I won't produce another list of 'issues' - they are all over this site - but what has happened is that they have all built up onto one another. The new swap system keeps getting harder to use well etc etc etc.

If I had to distill it down I would say that it has become abundantly clear that Ek simply does NOT CARE ABOUT THE PILOTS.

I don't say that lightly. A few examples: the rostering rules have been changed over time to ensure that the pilots get less benefits - max 7 days off in a row etc etc etc (all on this site). WHY?? No good reason.

When the swap system was introduced we were told that the 'rules' would not be released and that we would discover them over time. The arrogance of that is astounding.

Look at all the examples of complaints here on this forum and they prove, fairly conclusively, that as all these changes have been implemented in a manner so as to make it clear to the pilots that there is no regard for them.

And THAT, I believe, is the real issue.

Having worked in flt ops previously in a few places I am well aware that in most airlines, within office management there is what I would call 'pilot envy' or 'crew envy'. You hear it all teh time--the computer flies the airplane so I don't know why they get paid so much or complain about hours. Or, you get to stay in nice hotels and have your food paid for....yadda yadda yadda. This certainly exists at EK. Add to that the bean counters and bonus system where cost cutting is all that counts and you end of with a flt ops dept that is continually cutting. What gets frustrating is that many of these rules/systems/directives cause issues that are needless. So much could be done here AT NO COST to help improve peoples lives yet it is not. Instead they go the other way. In the end, there appears to be little or no respect for the flight crew. I am not talking about 'bow to me as a sky god' respect - but the simple respect that comes from any relationship.

So when you ask - are pilots here really that unhappy I would say it depends on scale. The one that are seriously unhappy have left or will leave. Others have no options. I think it is fairly accurate to say that the vast majority of pilots have gotten to the point where this has become nothing more than a job. More so, a job where they will simply do the bare minimum and then go home.
When I came here I was full of excitement to work for a company like Emirates. I sent shirts and hats home from the EK store to my wife, kids and family. I fully expected to embrace Dubai and be an EK family. I still like Dubai but EK has made it clear that we are simply beasts of burden to be used as they see fit. Which, I suppose, is their prerogative. But my response to that is, as I said above - then I will go to work, do my job and come home. I won't go the extra mile because they won't go the extra mile for me.

I don't say that maliciously by the way! I'll do a great job, the best I can, while I am work. The passengers will be taken care of and so will the crew.

So are we unhappy..no, I don't think that is the correct word.

I think RESIGNED would be more apt.

Resigned to the fact that we really don't matter and will be shown that we don't matter (which, by the way is difficult for most pilots to accept because, by our nature, we are proactive doers).

Resigned to the fact that it could be SO much more yet it is not.

[TransitCheck]

Trader....excellent post. My complaints are based on the same sentiments that you just explained.

Our jobs are still done professionally....unlike our management when they dirham and fil us to death on benefits that cost them nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[VaniosLenos]

After all, it is all what one makes of it. After time we all become eroded, and as Trader correctly said resigned. We go to work do our jobs, and go home. What we look forward to then? Personally I look forward to my next block of days off to go back home and see my family. Others will forward to payday, and others to their next LAX layover. Its all personal, we have to have something to keep us going.
Jump ship? Well there are plenty of options. In Europe, EZ, FR, Wizz, all are hiring and they will give you the base you want, they are desperate. But money is crap and you will basically split 50-50 with the tax man and the social insurances. And then for non Europeans there is China, Korea, Japan, and lots of money..(not to mention other ME airlines).
But what do we all do, or at least the great majority? Nothing. Because here we have become 'institutionalized', and we kind of think that here at least is the devil we know, and somehow we have came in terms with him.

[TransitCheck]

EK will be in a world of hurt if some of the Asian carriers like Korean and China Southern start to recruit First Officers with significant time in type for command positions.

By the way...where is our Salary? Anyone gotten it yet?

[Fearless Leader]

Yep. Mashreq

[ExpatBrat]

Trader wrote,

99% of the posts you will read here on pprune, I believe, are accurate.


Do you really believe that? I don't, I'm sorry. I mean, everyone's entitled to their opinion, obviously, and no disrespect intended but I'd be interested to know who else thinks that 99 out of 100 posts on a rumour site are accurate?

My guess would be about half....maybe.

[120feet]

What you also need to understand is as a pilot, EK is 3 different companies. It is not the same job to a 380 pilot as a 777 as a 330/340. I know pilots in all three and they all have very different views of the company. I personally can not understand how the 330 guys work the way they do, with 8 days off a month every month. Think about it. Its fewer days off than office staff, then you have a jacked up schedule flipping day and night duties monsoons in India and flying into war zones. Oh, and study on your off days. Now take that Guy and stand him next to a 380 guy who goes to Europe twice a month coupled to two US flights or down to OZ, and you will have two very different views of life a EK. EK pilots are by far the most overworked pilots out there regardless of equipment, and their pay not reflect this. I think most guys at EK are greatly disappointed at how pay and schedules continue to erode. There has been no positive changes on these for years, only negative. So the assumption of the future is the trend, and the trend is grim.

[Trader]

ExpatBrat---the opinions may not be accurate (but then they are opinions) but the facts regarding conditions are!

The comments about hours worked, pay, bidding etc are all pretty accurate.

The rest is opinion.

[TangoUniform]

The bottom line, really, is the Terms and Conditions that many of us signed up for have been degraded since around 2009. That includes rostering, leave allocation, remuneration, housing, staff travel, et al. There have been little or no improvements (yes, I know, a bit of increase in the utilities allowance) in the overall package. But again, the big one is the rostering, with the type of flying the majority of the pilots do here. Things like factoring, (no flight credit for augmenting crews not in operating seat), ULRs with only three crew with published expectation to go to 22 hrs in irregular ops, just to name two. The fact that if the bid computer gives you over five off days in a row, there will a "reserve day" (AD-available day) manually inserted in the middle of the days off. Do I need to go on?


Not so much "unhappy", just more of a frustration and being fed up. It's a one way street here and not in the pilots' direction.

[Schnowzer]

The issue that pretty much everyone joining doesn't anticipate is the way in which your priorities change as you get older. Most guys that join are happy, they see all the shiny aircraft and tall buildings and can't believe their luck in comparison to where they came from.

After a while the veneer wears off and there is a command to look forward to. In the past that was as little as 18 months, now it will be very much longer. Whilst they wait their 10 year plan starts to disappear out of the window. Conditions erode and many start to feel trapped.

The money starts to vanish too. If you are used to going out, it is crazy that you can't really afford it without an EPC card. A bottle of wine on a night out will cost you 400 dids when in Aus it might run to $25 bucks. And there are no choices to 5 star prices because they hold the licences. Expat inflation is staggering and to give you a feel for the change, Dubai went from the 90th to 67th most expensive city in the world with essentially a $1.40/hr increase in pay.

Further erosion comes in the form of allowances which never come close to following the price increases and changes to conditions that are touted as positive, medical for instance, but just result in reduced cover. All changes are negative and camouflaged with spin to "manage expectations"!

Here though is the big kicker. When most guys first join they look at the package and add it all up and are impressed. It's great for the little kids but gradually they grow and become bored to death as their teens fly by. They then move overseas to go to university and you are left with the bill. Yep I know that happens elsewhere but the reality that bites is that often families split and try to run 2 homes.

All the costs that the company covered in Dubai are dropped overseas. Often the kids are then also not entitled to the same benefits of the other students at home. With the kids gone, the parents rattle around the house and many pilots at that stage just become the cash cow sacrificing their health to try and keep the family on rails.

In my experience many of they guys that love it as they get older come from lower cost base countries or carry passports that offer few options. Many of the others start to feel trapped as their conditions spiral down and just can't imagine being 65 years old flying a dodgy 3 crew operation to the US as part of a 90 plus hour roster with factored flight hours.

So if you are new you'll enjoy it but in 10 years time as a relatively junior captain pulling down say $14k/month and paying the bills for your family back home you may find the gloss wears off and discover the true costs of being an expat are not matched by the ever diminishing EK salary.

[Payscale]

Well said Fred

[glofish]

Yes, well said. But it's absolutely intended.

Lure in the young and cheap, then let them get slowly disillusioned as to have them either accept that fact that they will get exploited until almost broke, at least relative to what they would need for a civilised retirement, or they leave without enough savings for later, and making space for another young dreamer. No social obligation whatsoever, they say you could have saved for that yourself, but the trick is that inflation directed everything back to their pockets before you were able to counteract.

It is an exploitation society and will always be one step ahead of you. Up to maybe 4 years, there was the property market. It was a dangerous path, but at least a chance of preparing for retirement. These days are gone because we are grossly out-priced.

EK might still be an option, but you either have to come with a nice reserve back home, for retirement, or the latter has to happen in a very cheap environment.
You know: Exactly the kind of environment you wanted to leave for good reason in the first place!!

The Boss tells the story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2eE9H7Nzww

[777boyindubai]

A few points that come to mind having read the previous posts:

1.) Dubai is a very expensive place to live. Everything has sky-rocketed in price.

2.) The EK package isn't keeping up with inflation.

3.) Very few people believe we will receive a bonus again.

4.) Lots of people talking about leaving. But stay because it is the best option re family being settled etc.

5.) A culture of arrogance from the management.

6.) Longer time to command.

7.) Nice shiny jets and some great people to work with.

8.) Good schooling.

Some great posts re the difference between the fleets.

EK is a good job for Captains. FO with family is a tough one. Single and young FOs could see this as a great gig.

[knifedge]

There are two major areas that need to improve for Pilots to be happy here...

Those are ACCOMMODATION AND ROSTERING...I guess the rest is more manageable...

This two issues will take your health and family life away....

1- The 92 hours target... There is no life with this rosters. You nearly recover for the next night shift with minimum allowances outstations. They changed TC for the productivity threshold from 78 to 92 hours. This days with the previous scheme, Captains would make 30 % higher salary. That means, any paid rise in the last 8 years has been taken away with this move. But more important than the pay, your family quality time got depreciated big time, more frequent health issues and no incentive. Depression, fatigue, divorces, alcohol consumption and other health issues it all went up drastically. Of course Medical benefits degraded so You pay the bill for it, just in case...

2- The new policy of taking people away from the city... Moving them to live in an unprepared hostile environment, like MH and Jebel Ali. Degrading your life quality and your family's. They give no answers to major issues and they treat You as if You are disturbing them. But, they send You to live there before it is even ready.

So to come here today, will accelerate your health degradation, your divorce and better don't forget your hat at home...!!

[Aluminium shuffler]

So, just like eveywhere else, then...

[fatbus]

It seem to always be the same complaints by new guys every few years. Same same.

[Emma Royds]

Many of my colleagues have eloquently summed up how many of us feel but another feeling that is very common amongst us is frustration. I would say that there are not that many that would say that they are genuinely unhappy as such but a number would say that they do feel frustration more than anything else.

In Emirates, a little change could create a big difference and it is this that many find frustrating. Many of these changes would bear no extra cost to the company which adds to the feeling of frustration.

How we are perceived by EK management was something that I saw first hand at my last gig, as I was involved in the office in my previous life. The degree of contempt that I witnessed at my last company was quite off putting at first before I got used to it but I see the exact same traits here in EK. Management still view us as doing the same job as long haul pilots did in the days of when 707s were in the skies. The nice destinations and the leading brand name hotels that we often stay in, create a false impression that masks the real issues that that we face both in and out of work due to the way that we are managed.

For those reading who are not EK employees, the key thing to this job is making it work for yourself. It is now really only a single mans game now for those joining, since it is still financially lucrative enough to offset the negatives, if you only have yourself to worry about. Plus if you are on your own, then you really have the flexibility needed to make the most of the limited time off that we now have.

I would sum up that I am not happy here nor am I unhappy but I would say that I am generally satisfied with occasionally bouts of frustration thrown in from time to time. I don't get paid enough to care nor worry about EK in between leaving EGHQ and next reporting for my next duty. My time off is too valuable for that.

[fliion]

I also think that what goes to the core of the problem is the complete lack of appreciation from a co.optics perspective of the good job that we do.

We are one of the hardest working long haul pilots in the market...month in month out 90-92.

The tone at wash ups, in co. emails etc always seems to focus on the issues of what went wrong last week and how we need to improve our game...cue lost Comms.

They need some salesmen in there to focus on the 95% that do good ???

It really is low hanging fruit for a new manager wannabee because of the cost of that....zero.

But perhaps it's by design ... ie that would be seen as some sort of empowerment.

The tone issue is a real head scratcher as it's 101 in mgt school.

Ah well...what would we know...not allowed even open an aircraft door ...now there's some empowerment for the skipper .

f.

[Schnowzer]

Here is the old Flt Ops management keyboard, they've got rid of the green key as it is now obsolete to save cash for the fuel bill:

http://st.depositphotos.com/1074452/1044/i/950/depositphotos_10448821-Carrot-Or-Stick-Keys-Showing-Motivation-By-Incentive-Or-Pressure.jpg

[hifly787]

Speaking as a bystander, No happy pilots in EK or even CX . Then where in the world would you find one ?

[Tatarin]

Hi everyone!
Please advise how many days off per month do you have at EK?
And how many take offs/landings do you perform in 90-92 block hours?

[Schnowzer]

9-15 DO, 3-10 Landings depending on fleet / roster. But....reading the recruitment thread will even show you rosters moy drug!

[abZorbatheleak]

Heard from a friend on the CRS comity that if AAR gets his way the new Jepp Roster system will give us a maximum of 8 confirmed days off a month with the rest of the non flying days being AD's. (Available or can use days)

[Mach_Krit]

Then its time to quit this profession. Not here to step into the coffin any time soon

[jack schidt]

ADs on the roster are "Adel Days", you are his property, that's why he gave you a part number, much like the no smoking sticker on the inside of the door in the aircraft toilets.:p

[ekwhistleblower]

I suspect if an 8 day rule was introduced he might find many more pilots taking him up on his IYDLIYCL offer

[Neptune Spear]

Even the Ryanair pilots? I don't think so.
They have not only ruined the profession on a macro level they are ruining Emirates on a micro level. Thanks a lot guys.
Do you think Ryanair pilots should pay for their recurrent every 6 months at Emirates?

[falconeasydriver]

Try having 8 minimum days off and doing 3 ULR's, not possible under the current FTL's.

[adolf hucker]

Really? The Ryanair pilots have ruined your cosy little ex- pat deal eh? FYI quite a few have already seen Emirates and Dubai for what it is and moved on. It's spineless chumps like you who whine and continue to provide their services that allow your package to get eroded.

[cvg2iln]

I had a handful of furloughed colleagues decamp to the sandpit and submit to the tender charms of EK - each heeded loud and clear the siren's call for the necessity of a paycheck - mortgage to service, wife and kids to feed.

All without exception, once their number came up for recall, paid a not insignificant sum to EK to make things whole and subsequently returned home. Their stories are interesting and illuminating and they would have been much happier without the sandpit intruding into their lives. It was simply an equation to be balanced: paycheck in lieu of QOL.

[Al Murdoch]

In my group of friends, everyone is very happy here, both with work and with living in Dubai. Yes, it's not perfect, there are issues. But on the whole it's a question of making it work for you.
Don't make an opinion based on PPRuNe would be my advice.

[LHR Rain]

I can't believe you make a statement like that Al. Everyone one you know is happy at Emirates?
Just about everyone I know and fly with have varying degrees of dislike to outright hatred of Emirates. I have yet to come across anyone that is really and truly happy. Some ignore what is going on around them and bury their head in the sand but even they do not sing the praises of EK.
With all that has happened to our T&Cs, salary and the goings on with Dubai you would be hard pressed to find a happy camper.
Yes I think Ryanair pilots should pay for their PPCs every 6 months. After all they paid for their training.

[birdieonfirst]

I'm another "happy camper" Mr. Rain...

I've been here for 11 years now, have made the best out if it and am truly happy about our decision to come her more than a decade ago. My closest friends, that joined within a few years of me, feel the same.

As said in a previous post: most people are happy. Don't make your decisions based on posts on a forum on internet!

Yes there are issues. Here as everywhere. It's how you deal with them that matters...

:ok:BOF

[777boyindubai]

The people who are well established here are settled and are pretty happy. New joiners not so much. The terms and conditions have plummetted in the last five years.

Management is puinitive and any way of screwing the staff is considered good management practice. Engagement? That is when you buy a ring.

There are serious cost of living issues here. I don't see many FOs piping up here saying how wonderful it is. It may be better than some of their home countries but with the cost of living increases literally monthly piling up it soon mirrors the struggle that they left behind.

Whilst I respectfully agree with some of our friends writing here, please look at where you and your family will fit in.

For and FO with kids, it isn't sustainable with the extended time to command.

Think carefully. Get all the info. Visit and check out the schools and availability of places. Go and look at Meydan etc. Ask away on the forums and understand where the posters are coming from. An 11 year Captain views his (or Hers) position in a different light to a new FO.

[break dancer]

12 plus years for myself and family. We're reasonably happy and only hang out with those that have a life outside EK. Sure, we bitch about a lot of things and not just EK. Why get dragged down with really negative attitudes.
Those new joiners (5-6 years)have no excuse about the erosion of T&C as that's been going on for at least that long now. As has been said before, due diligence should be done by all who think about coming here. Would we make the same decision now as we made then???? I don't dwell on what ifs. It is working for us at the moment and when it doesn't we'll change things.

[slartybartfast]

Do not under any circumstances consider giving up a command elsewhere to come to EK as an F/O. It's just not worth it. Previous comments as regards trying to support a lifestyle as a married F/O with kids are bang on. Yes I know it's my fault for believing the hype and joining in the first place, I would just rather prevent others making the same mistake. Try up the road would be my advice.

[LHR Rain]

They why don't you come and join jockey? After all you know better and know more than the countless of posters who have personal and firsthand knowledge of working for Emirates.
Just be ready for a 10 year wait for command.

[Al Murdoch]

Yes I think Ryanair pilots should pay for their PPCs every 6 months. After all they paid for their training.
And with that mentality, why would you ever be happy anywhere? If you are a negative person generally and seek to concentrate on the downsides to your life and seek to find fault with other people's decisions in life, then that's upto you. Please don't project your unhappiness onto me.
All I can speak about is my own experience. And it is a fact that I don't know anybody amongst my friends who is unhappy here. Yes, as I said, there are issues that niggle, but personally I try not to let them get to me.
If you want to sit on the flight deck complaining the whole day, things are going to feel pretty crappy for you and the poor unfortunate that has to listen to you. When I hear sentences that begin with "I know for a FACT" I tend to switch off. I can only go on how I am treated and that, so far, has been pretty good.
Part of the problem here is that some people come to Dubai thinking that they are going to be living a Hollywood lifestyle. Well if you are on one salary and you have a family to support, guess what, it's not going to be like that. Tennis lessons for the kids are as expensive here as they are in Berlin, Amsterdam, wherever. If you also expect to be going out to top restaurants and spending a fortune on seeing celebrity DJs etc etc then life is not going to be cheap, so do your homework, find out what you expect your life to be like. Research your questions with real pilots & visit Dubai. Make your own mind up - don't listen to me or anybody else on the internet.

[ruserious]

It's a bit like a decision making model...

Understand your environment, the benefits and the game
Lower your expectations, to the floor
Find a hobby or obsession
Learn to (or) be Happy
Otherwise leave

And seriously it's not the Ryan Air guy's fault, get a grip :=:rolleyes:

[Touchthestars]

What's your national airline Jock?

[glofish]

Keep in mind that the early birds at EK lived through some quite good times. The huge erosion of the conditions is quite often simply endured and because they could buy a cheap house then, or are very senior skippers now and among the more lucky ones where wifey is still happy (because the above) and the kids could attend a good school (try that today!), we can actually believe them that they are happy.

The problem with most of us pilots, even the "happy" ones, is that we are good with actual situations, but bad with trends. That's why we had flight engineers and we have data recorders and analysers today. And that's why most pilots are not very good with finances, most of us need specialists to intelligently invest our small earnings for long term and trends ....

My tow cents:
If EK employment was stock and the shares would be coldly analysed today, according to the trend lately and the predicted trend, they would be strongly qualified as "sell" .

Why would anyone buy shares branded "sell strongly"? Right, because they are pilots.

[777boyindubai]

Jock. Please do tell us your airline. I haven't seen many FOs with kids saying they have a luxury lifestyle here......
You have visited. Many posters LIVE here and have done so for many years.
You are entitled to your opinions but perhaps some of our readers will put more weight on those comments from those who have been a here a few years and who have seen the degrading terms, the lack of a fair and reasonable labour law, the lack of unions etc. etc.

[fliion]

Anyone who knows my views here, know I am not a coolaid drinker and when I have a beef I express it...plenty the Co could do at no cost to improve things ...yet they will not.

That said, I've come across an increasing number of acrimonious FOs who are seriously bitching about the time to command...her is how the Chat goes:

FO: "those MFs told me three years to command at my interview!"

ME: "yep it sucks"

FO: "total BS"

ME: "what were the mins when you joined?"

FO: "4000 and I have 9000 at (said LCC) airline!..total BS"

ME: " then WTF were you doing flying for 5000 hours above mins while we all came here at mins and got our three year command. You snooze you lose sucker...so suck it up!"

Okay the last one is what I think...but all I actually say is " grabbingg a tea in the galley, want one"

So listen up high time FOs who sat and watched this not so secret monster grow while you heed and hummed...before coming with all your experience ...

Buy a mirror.

f.

[777boyindubai]

Transport Jock. Care to comment on this?


Parents worried over rising school fees
School fees increasing steadily over the years
By Noor Nazzal, Staff ReporterPublished: 21:00 August 30, 2014Gulf News
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Image Credit: Ahmed Ramzan/Gulf News Archives
Pupils return to school after the summer vacations. It will be hard for them to get back to the routine, and changing their sleeping and eating patterns after a long break.
Dubai: As fees and other school expenses increase steadily year after year, parents say it has become increasingly difficult for them to pay for their children’s education.
The Knowledge and Human Development Authority (KHDA) has confirmed that 127 private schools out of 158 private schools in Dubai are going to increase their fees in line with the KHDA’s school fee framework.
For the third consecutive year, the hike was determined by the cost index, which is calculated by a comprehensive analysis of the operating costs incurred by schools. The higher the ranking the school receives in school inspections, the more the school can raise its fees.
Meanwhile, a report by the authority found that 58 per cent of the 243,715 students attend private schools that charge more than Dh10,000 per year. With the increase of fees in the 127 private schools, this percentage is expected to increase even more.

A majority of parents interviewed by Gulf News said a big chunk of their salaries is spent on their children’s tuition fee.
Jordanian Mohammad Al Herish said he paid around Dh90,000 for the tuition of his three children.
Related Links
Soaring university fees hurt students
Feeling the pinch of rising fees
“I would have not been able to spend that kind of amount on my children’s education if I had to depend on my salary alone. I have rented out the family house in Amman to be able to pay the fees and, despite the rent money, I still need to take out a big chunk from my salary.”
However, he would very soon need to revise his choice of school, he says. “I plan on transferring them to a more affordable school in two years’ time because by then, my eldest son will be in university and I would need money to pay for his university tuition.”
A school survey conducted last year by WhichSchoolAdvisor.com found that one in five families spends more than 30 per cent of their monthly household budget on school fees. The findings, which were based on responses from 596 households across the UAE, found that most respondents said they spend between 11-15 per cent of their combined salaries on school fees.
Furthermore, another study featuring 1,072 parents, which was conducted by the same website, found that one in three parents pays their children’s school fees late and two out of 10 take personal loans to pay them.
Father of four Hassan Hamad, from Pakistan, said he is not surprised by the survey’s finding as he has taken a loan of Dh100,000 to pay for his children’s education. “I have put my children in expensive schools because I want them to receive a good quality of education. It is a huge burden to pay such an amount but I am hoping that it will all pay off when they are older.”
Hamad says he is expecting to pay off the loan in two years’ time with the profit made from his interior design company.
In addition to school fees, Pakistani father of two Ameer Rehman said small additional fees here and there can add to the load. “There are registration fees, extracurricular activity fees and cost of stationery, uniforms and books that parents also need to take into account when planning their budget for their child’s education. I paid around Dh20,000 for both my children’s fees, but now it seems that I need another Dh10,000 to cover the rest of the costs.”
Although many parents like Hamad believe that schools offering higher fees offer better quality of education, inspections results show that this is not the case.
If you take the Gems World Academy — whose fees range from Dh56,831 to Dh98,645 as an example — it has received the same ‘good’ rating as Al Diyafah High School, which charges Dh9,842 to Dh20,752, an amount that is significantly lower.
The KHDA also agrees that higher fees do not necessarily mean better education as it has previously stated that many schools that got ‘good’ rankings charge between Dh10,000-Dh15,000 a year.
Gulf News found that fees of private schools in the UAE range roughly from Dh5,000 to Dh100,000.
Kings School Nad Al Sheba and Kings School Al Barsha are among the schools that charge higher fees. Its foundation stage one costs Dh50,200 and it will soon charge Dh100,300-Dh103,200 for year 12 and 13, respectively, in the coming years.

[Alconguin Crusader]

You are not going to send your kids to one of the Indian schools are you Transport?
If not count on going into your pocket big time to send your kids to a quality school. I have to spend 2 months of my own money to educate my kids and I am a captain. Then you ask why can't you live in Dubai on the wages you make.
You seem wide eyed and bushy tailed but the salary here doesn't go very far. Ask around and be open minded. Don't just listen to what you want to hear to convince yourself Emirates is a good deal. Even if you come from a 3rd world country and work for a crap airline Emirates won't be much better for you.

[Rather Be Skiing]

... Even if you come from a 3rd world country and work for a crap airline Emirates won't be much better for you.

Of course that's because Dubai is still a 3rd world country. Shiny new buildings and flash cars don't change what it is at its core.

[Mrs Mangels]

A few things to consider also-
Where you live now, 95% chance your wife works, or is able to for a decent wage if she has to tomorrow.
You have a family support network where the kids are easily taken care of when you/ missus is working.
School costs-, yes, there is a subsidy here, but only from a certain age at certain schools onwards, so when you don't qualify, (which no one does), you're going to be coughing up a lot.
Repeat from above posts, in the interview, "You'll be upgrading in 3 years, for sure (4 years later, no sign of it), and "DEC's!!!! No way. Trust us!!"

So 4 years later, here I am, still paying through the nose for unsupported 3rd child education, wife working, and the saddest part, for me,
I have a second job. :confused:

[Emma Royds]

Some people do not do proper investigations etc before they make the move. My wife and family are however very keen on moving to Dubai. One of the main reasons why my wife is keen is for the kids education and long term future.

transport jock

You can investigate as much as you wish based on what has and is happening in EK and Dubai as a whole. However, what many of us are asking you to consider is what will happen in the years ahead.

Remember these two important facts.

• F/Os joining now will be in the RHS for considerably longer than the past.

• EK have absolutely no desire to increase salaries to match inflation in Dubai. Supply and demand dictates any future salary increase.

Finally ask yourself this question whilst taking the above into account.

'Can I provide the quality of life that I wish to give my family in the years ahead?'

The days of being able to budget with a degree of certainty as an F/O, for three years before the command came are well and truly over. You could be spending two to three times that in the RHS. Can you justify the move for being on a F/O's salary 6-9 years from now?

[mooseknuckles]

Cost of living is one issue but being able to enjoy your job depends 100% on your fleet and tolerance for night flying. The paradox for me us that I'm relatively happy with dubai. Lots of friends and hobbies etc. However, the job is seriously lacking. I've been seriously looking for a better job and there are a lot out there that pay better and provide a better lifestyle. Then I realize that I'll be moving to the 380 soon and that's like getting a new job without having to move.

Whatever you do, do not take a job on the 340/340 fleet now. It is a dying fleet and every hour you spend is wasted toward command. In addition, every hour you spend will be either at night, in Africa, or in a war zone. I'm not joking about the last part.

I know this place must look like paradise compared to (insert LLC), but the long line of you guys waiting to be abused has seriously hindered our salary and benefits progression. They see an unlimited resource of pilots and feel no need to change anything to keep or attract people. If you are offended by that, then you are probably part of the problem.

Anyway, back to talking about schools, food, blah, blah.....

[vfenext]

I've said this before and the post was deleted due to obviously pointing out some mute points. To those thinking of joining EK please bear in mind the kind of people who post info here. At most they represent about 2% of the 3500 pilots and as seen above they have hidden agendas. They are quite happy to speak as if representing a majority or possessing some kind of mandate to speak on behalf of everybody. The days of Pprune being a useful tool for job research are very long gone. Here you only find those who are happy to use others as a tool to increase their own benefits. Don't allow yourself to be used in order to further someone else's career. Do the research elsewhere and find answers to your own questions from people you know and trust. I'm not saying its good or bad at EK but the other 98% might be silent for a reason!

[Panther 88]

The title of this thread is a bit incorrect. It's not that most pilots are "unhappy", IMHO, most are dissatisfied. There is a difference. As Moose said, it is a paradox. Life outside of work, many are doing ok. Life within the confines of work, many live in a quiet desperation.

[glofish]

vfenext

If your percentage of the "silent mass" is correct, you might however not be correct about the reasons they shut up!!

It is hard to get a representative and therefore accurate number on what we are discussing here. The indicator i take are the CRM days. A whole day with all the different members of a fleet and finally the complete mix during the wash-up seems to be the most accurate random representation of around 50 pilots you can get on one day.

Judging by that you will get a very bleak picture of the mood in our group. When the guys and gals from fleet, training and HR showed up and asked for questions, they were met with an embarrassing silence that said it all!
After 2 minutes we were all heading to our Volvos ......

At least lately i have as much a hard time to see and hear a satisfied colleague as i have to find anything in my roster i was wishing for. Especially the more than 3 days off in a row. And that makes me a very unhappy bugger. :ugh:

[sluggums]

VFEnext... Probably because the other 94-96% are too, buggered, tired, apathetic, frustrated, don't post on Internet forums, sleeping before another night flight... Delete as appropriate.

[fatbus]

Most of the other 94 % don't read this forum. This is not a useful tool in deciding on coming or not to the ME. 2% happy,2% unhappy and 2% undecided .

[LW20]

"Whatever you do, do not take a job on the 340/340 fleet now. It is a dying fleet and every hour you spend is wasted toward command."

Why are these hours wasted? Can you only upgrade from right to left on the current type? A330/A340 FO can only get an upgrade on the A330/A340?:ooh:

Thanks,

LW20

[SOPS]

You got it.

[LW20]

Wow.
When the A330/A340 get's phased out, you will start on the last spot of the seniority list of your new fleet? So, on 1 fleet you could get an upgrade after e.g. 5 years. And your colleage on the other one after e.g. 7 years, although you joined on the same date?:

[cerbus]

BINGO! You finally got it LW 20.
Can you see why so many pilots are upset with how Emirates treats it's employees? This is just one example of how pilots get screwed with no recourse but to leave the company or vent on pprune.
I don't claim to have a majority opinion because I have not commissioned a poll but just about every pilot at EK is disappointed to irate about the way things have transpired in the last few years.

[flaphandlemover]

T J,

why do you keep posting so positive about Dubai? You never lived here and the only thing i can see is, that you are as blinded as all the new joiners... please do us a favour and come over and live your dream.

Please also let us know after 3 years (thats how long it takes to loose the pink glasses) how your wife feels about the great future for herself.

You found your absolute dream destination apparently in Dubai...

I've never seen anybody trying so aggressively to find positive points to all the negative comments of those who've been living here long enough to tell you what it is about.

[mooseknuckles]

LW20, I'll try explain it very clearly since the upgrade policy at EK is somewhat convoluted. If you were to join on the 330, you would stay on the fleet until it is phased out and you woud never upgrade on it. That will be about 2 years as of right now, but that plan seems to change with the wind. The last upgrades on that fleet start class in November and then that's it for upgrades. Also no more CCQ classes meaning you will not get the 340 type. Once transferred to the 380 (777 is no longer an option for transfer) you will need to accure 2500 hours on the 380 for upgrade, regardless of how much time you spent on the 330. Thats what many FOs are dealing with right now. Some have been on the 330 for 3 years and are now moving to the 380. Their counterparts who were hired after them and directly onto the 380 or 777 have been building time to command and will upgrade before them despite their junior status. Basically, if you took a job on the 330 now, you woud be looking at 7-9 year upgrade if not longer.

Anyone please correct me if anything I have said is incorrect, exagerated, or biased.

But as I said before, Dubai is what you make of it and most people are having a good time outside of work. However, people are fed up with the ambiguity and continual erosion of the total package.

[harry the cod]

Glofish

How right you are. Just did my CRM and the day was interesting. Very, very negative comments, some justified but most not so. Once one had started, the floodgates opened. Most subjects were hijacked by a group intent on proving how pissed off they were. Great at spreading malicious rumours and idle gossip too but, when pushed, it was obvious that they had little or no facts of the real events. Then I did a little research.

Of the group, 2 were permanent F/O's, another had been a Captain but was demoted, 1 Captain had been removed as a trainer, 1 F/O (who thought he knew it all and was god's gift to aviation) had failed his command course last year and another was a Captain after succeeding second time round. His wife though had moved back to Europe with the kids and he's trying to commute, as was another guy. So, out of about 13 guys, over half had 'history' and 'issues'. It was the 'perfect storm'.

Seeing how they conducted themselves in class, I can now see why the Company acted as it did!

Harry

[Xulu]

So if the last upgrades on 330 are this November, I assume there is limited recruitment onto the fleet to replace the guys being upgraded?

Are new airbus joiners almost guaranteed the 380?

[White Knight]

Seeing how they conducted themselves in class, I can now see why the Company acted as it did!



I think you've brought up a good point here Harry... If you act like a tit you'll be treated like a tit!

And yeah; for the record I'm happy here - as are most of the 380 F/Os I fly with. Then again I've been here long enough to A) earn the lifestyle with seniority and B) know how Dubai works and more importantly C) know how EK works....

Dubai and Emirates are a good gig IF you make them WORK FOR YOU:ok:

[glofish]

Harry

I see what you mean, to a certain extent i consent. A small group poisons the lot.
But on the other hand your example just proves our point:
How come that so many are so pi$$ed? You certainly agree that in a class of 13 a group of 7 makes a huge percentage!

either EKs selection went terribly wrong, or its environment is wrong, sort of creating such ire. Everyones choice, but evidently Sum Thing Wong.

[Outatowner]

american curriculum is more expensive than the rest

You'd think it would be cheaper considering they don't cover history, geography or English! :p ;) :D

[cerbus]

White Knight I do believe you are full of manure. You said everyone you come across is happy and you probably believe that. You also said you don't know any Americans that are leaving.
13 pilots left the company last month. I have moved up 36 positions this year alone and I don't know how many pilots left junior to me. Every American I have talked to have their applications in at US majors.
If you tell yourself you are happy over and over you will not notice how things have detoriated at Emirates and that might be a good thing for you. I prefer to be a realist.

[ManaAdaSystem]

either EKs selection went terribly wrong, or its environment is wrong, sort of creating such ire. Everyones choice, but evidently Sum Thing Wong

You have all been through the same selection, no?

[falconeasydriver]

I posted a question on here a while ago regarding how many of the septics are leaving, well, of the 12 I know, 9 are working their notice and 6 of those are 380 guys.
Its interesting to note that as predicted the lead time for resignations is about 12-18 months, I wonder where we will be with respect to manpower and policies in another 12 months from now?

[gl69]

The big unanswered question is that over 200 Emirates pilots have applied to leave. How many will actually leave? No one knows.

[harry the cod]

Glofish

And that's the point. It was almost half the class and it did indeed prove poisonous. People often use these days as opportunities to vent and nothing wrong or unusual in that, providing it doesn't take over the subject. The perfect storm was that there were so many 'suspects' in the one class. One or two whiners perhaps, but 7? Regardless of the mainly negative posts on these forums, I do not believe this a true percentage representation of pilots opinion.

My frustration is spending a day listening to this garbage when I'm rostered to refresh CRM. I get no credit pay. I can work with that providing the day proves useful and I learn something. The biggest concern too is the few relatively new F/O's who didn't know what had hit them. When statements are made such as "any decision you make in this Company will be wrong", how the hell can guys enhance their professional abilities and have the confidence to make common sense decisions when they upgrade? That statement came from the F/O (ex RAF) who obviously felt Command was his right. The guy was a **** basically and was intent on using his own distorted bias to influence those less vocal. Because he'd failed his first attempt (no doubt more to do with attitude than ability), everyone else should be screwed too. What a jerk.

When you also have an 8 year Captain moaning that they had to go on leave two days late because we don't fly a daily service to Toronto, you kinda get the message where this day went!

Harry

[kirungi1]

using his own distorted bias to influence those less vocal

Never have truer words ever been put straight about this lot.

Harry the cod, EK Stoic, thank you.

[vfenext]

This forum has become the online version of Harry's CRM day. Toxic BS from those who will complain wherever they are.

[harry the cod]

The forum discussion asks if all EK pilots are unhappy? I'm merely using actual evidence to answer that question.

People's view of this Company will be heavily biased towards many variables, the most obvious being and in no particular order;

1) Disciplinary record
2) Fleet type
3) Time and position within Company
4) Accommodation
5) Financial situation
6) Dubai. (Home for some, base to commute to for others)
7) Interests outside of work, sport, social.
8) Regular holidays/mini breaks from Dubai
9) Long term/short term view of EK career and previous airline conditions.
10) And perhaps the most important of all, domestic arrangements. Kids in the right school, happy wife, friends, family and support network.

This Company is by no means perfect. Still some punitive concerns but those have generally improved. I agree with a lot of the issues, but not all, stated in SS's post above. Sadly, many concerns and gripes could easily be corrected with little effort and no cost. However, in the majority of cases, there will always be factors other than EK that influence our opinion of this and any other job. The problem here is that so much of our lives are controlled by our employer. That lack of personal space and control is a major stressor for some.

It's important that people thinking of coming here recognise that fact.

[fliion]

OTT,

Yet another anti American cheap shot from a country you come from called "Far Away"

As you noted we may not know English, Geography or History as well as other high school kids.

But rest assured we know the meaning of ally and loyalty to out partners .

The world sleeps safer at night because of our great nation...why don't you throw your lot in with Putin, ISIS and the China's nine dash line.

And if you are Kenyan my friend, based on initial reports, we got Ahmed Godane - the architect of Westgate - tonight. (And if we didn't we tried)

Simple challenge.

Name your country...or are you afraid?

Because we are not - never have been....and NEVER will be.

f.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

The world sleeps safer at night because of our great nationDude... Stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking. Several hundred thousand innocent good people would still live out their lifes in peace - this century alone - were it not for your 'great' nation. The last thing the US got half way right was the Marshall plan (Google it - I doubt you were taught about it in school. Or about anything else but 'intelligent' design for what it is worth). Everything thereafter will be judged by history as the acts of the greatest school yard bully that ever existed. Luckily you will soon run out of the means to fund your grotesquely inflated military. The Chinese will see to that.

[donpizmeov]

Children,

You need to channel that agro at the muppets running this place, not at each other.

The don

[fliion]

Mach 5

Name your country coward. And if you are from Malaysia - your welcome to the P8As that have searched for your flag carriers wreckage - or was that our fault too?

History not defined by the last 14 years.

Stalins Russia

Hitlers Germany

Mao's China

Pol Pots Cambodia

The list goes...now we are talking historic numbers

Don, Nothing childish about defending continued unprovoked anti -Americanism on this forum.

f.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

or was that our fault too?
I did not think so, but as you brought it up...

[fliion]

Didn't think you would name your country - coward.

A good win for your team tonight...another American journalist beheaded.

Perhaps the Malay Air Force will protect Erbil & Yazidi again.

Shame on you if you are from a NATO country.

f.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

...another American journalist beheaded.
And a guy from Phoenix machine gunned by a nine year old with an Uzi (no, I am not joking. It is on Youtube, authorized by the PHX PD).
No difference whatsoever for the poor relatives. I think your high horse is getting tired of you. Get off.


Fili... Seriously, before you call me a coward... you remind me of one of my flight instructors. What exactly did you do in the summer of '88? We might have met.

[CamelRustler]

What have the Romans ever done for us. Yes, cheap shots is a different forum. Here is not the place, and in fact gives any future comments you may make less credibility. HTC, as I believe you have alluded to, this is a different company depending on what fleet you are on. I look at my roster every month and wonder how EK expects me to do this. If it was a one off thing fine. However, month after month after month of midnight India in monsoon, flipping my schedule between day and night a dozen times every month. 8 maybe 9 days off every month. (Half of which are single days.) You do not work for this EK. I do, and its exhausting, and it sucks. So every little thing become an annoyance. Even down to the stupid flight bag. I loved my flight bag. I miss my flight bag. We were good friends for 20 years. This new thing is a giant murse with wheels. Its made for male pursers, not pilots. I remember when we got the 14 week profit share and there were people on here complaining it was not enough. There will always be those people. But a lot of us who are unhappy have very good reason. I do understand the happy people. If I was left seat 380 I would work for the "Happy" EK too. I could golf, see my kids, go boating for the weekend. Have a weekend. I never speak up in wash-ups because it is like pissing into the wind. At least for the big stuff. I think most people get this and just save their breath. How many times have you heard, "The schedules are going to get better." So to people reading this outside EK, understand which EK you will be working for when you apply. Understand when they tell you will be flying 70-75 hours a month with an average of 12-14 days off it could be true, or not. Yes I don't like it here. Yes I will be leaving when I get my ducks sorted. I wanted to stay here, but I also want to live past 52.

[fliion]

Mach 5

Ha!

Moving from profound geopolitical accusations to a one off front page tabloid news story.

Your white flag is accepted...not the first for your nation I suspect.

Good night.

f.

[pilotday]

Hey fliion, its worthless to try to argue with Yank Haters. Let's abbreviate that Australian style and just call them "Yankers." Their feelings are deep rooted like how a 16 year old girl hates her father.

However, its fun to ask which paradise they call home. They never answer for obvious reasons. Every debate is instantly won when your opponent cannot answer a simple question.

Its sad these children take out their jealousy and hatred against their co-workers.

The best CRM in the cockpit is just to say, "Hey, you can hate my government, but you don't need to personally hate me"

[ExpatBrat]

What have the Romans ever done for us.

Too funny... :)

[ExpatBrat]

The best CRM in the cockpit is just to say, "Hey, you can hate my government, but you don't need to personally hate me"

Yes and when you're done with the ensuing jihad you can talk about religion on the return sector. Really excellent CRM indeed. Good luck with that!

[donpizmeov]

pilotday,


People don't hate you. They just get nervous when you keep staring at their nipples.


The don

[ironbutt57]

@pilotday...lived through that at a previous employer...learned one important lesson:...never argue with a idiot...they have the home field advantage:ok:

[MrMachfivepointfive]

never argue with a idiot...they have the home field advantage

Funny - I was just about to write something very similar. My version is:
Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level where he will beat you through experience.

QED.

[airjet]

And there I was thinking that "Emirates" was every ones dream airline to fly for.

[JAYTO]

You are correct airjet.

It "was". Not "is"

Jayto.

[pilotday]

I would like to thank everybody above for confirming my points with even more childish comments while hiding behind a veil of secrecy.

Airjet, EK was a good gig, but has always been a place for the un-hirable in their home country. The un-hirable make the best slaves.

Whether that be Ansett Scabs, DUI's, personality flaws, home country economy, home country is 3rd world etc etc..or even just pure greed, because EK does pay a lot better than most gigs when you figure a tax free salary.

It really gets the Yankers (Yank Haters) upset when you remind them that Emirates isn't British Airways or anything special you can retire to making your grandchildren proud, its a consolation prize for a failed career, whether by choice or bad luck.

If you are under age 35 with a clean record, it should be viewed as s stepping stone.

[Outatowner]

Never argue with an idiot.

Funny that you assumed they're talking about you pilotday. :D

If you're so big on openness why don't you post under your real name? :=

And what made you unhirable in your home country, besides attitude and upbringing?

[kirungi1]

It really gets the Yankers (Yank Haters) upset when you remind them that Emirates isn't British Airways or anything special you can retire to making your grandchildren proud, its a consolation prize for a failed career, whether by choice or bad luck.

Was that a complaint or a compliment!? :p:ok:

They say form is temporary and class is permanent.

[stable_checked]

The First Officer basic salary is advertised as 25320AED monthly and the captain as 36140AED(figures from attending a roadshow a while ago)

Do these figures go up in any incremental with every year of service or do you stay on 25320AED basic until you eventually get a command and move to 36140AED?

[ruserious]

Yes the pay is incremental, usually at about 3% per year (not guaranteed although it is meant to be)

[stable_checked]

ruserious (http://www.pprune.org/members/67035-ruserious) thank you for your reply.

What happens when you get your command? Do you join the appropriate incremental on the captain payscale, for example year 7 if you have been a FO for 7 years, or do you start from the basic of 36140AED and then each year as a captain get the 3%?

With a 3% increase every year, a FO will eventually reach the captain's basic salary so it would make sense when you upgrade to 'jump' to the appropriate captain pay point correct?

[stable_checked]

Neektu is the 'captains bar' the 36140AED Year 1 captain basic?

So if after 7 years you get your command, do you jump to Year 10 Captain or do you start at captain year 1 of 36140AED?

[ekwhistleblower]

You join on step 1 and are supposed to go up one step (3%) each year. When promoted to Capt you move a further 10 steps. The number of steps is limited and despite being contractual, if you don't screw up, the company has failed to pay it on occasion.

[stable_checked]

Sorry still not very clear. Based on what you guys have said i have constructed the following:

First Officer ------------------------ Captain
Step 1 - 25320AED ------------------Step 1 - 36140AED
Step 2 - 26080AED ------------------Step 2 - 37224AED
Step 3 - 26862AED ------------------Step 3 - 38341AED
Step 4 - 27668AED ------------------Step 4 - 39491AED
Step 5 - 28498AED ------------------Step 5 - 40676AED
Step 6 - 29353AED ------------------Step 6 - 41896AED
Step 7 - 30233AED ------------------Step 7 - 43153AED
Step 8 - 31140AED ------------------Step 8 - 44448AED
Step 9 - 32075AED ------------------Step 9 - 45781AED
Step 10 - 33037AED -----------------Step 10 - 47155AED
Step 11 - 34028AED -----------------Step 11 - 48569AED
Step 12 - 35049AED -----------------Step 12 - 50026AED
Step 13 - 36100AED -----------------Step 13 - 51527AED

I understand if i join as a First Officer i start on Step 1 of 25320AED and move up a Step every year until about Step 13 when i hit the ''captain's bar''. What happens if for example after 10 years when i am on Step 10 i get upgraded. Which Step from the above do i move onto.

Thanks for your help

[The Turtle]

This smells of a line of American IRS agent.....

[stable_checked]

The Turtle you are a disgrace. I will tell you what it smells. It smells of someone who is considering the move to the ME from a European airbus operator and is trying to gather info about how my salary will progress. If you don't like that then **** *** and let the others help.

[Instant Hooligan]

trying to gather info about how my salary will progress

I know this sounds flippant but it wont progress, with Dubai inflation it will regress in real terms at a much faster rate than you've seen in Europe since the 70's

[stable_checked]

Inflation and cost of life is not what i want to find out. what i want is to understand how the pay scales work with every year

[Instant Hooligan]

Good luck with your search.......

[CAT3A]

The pay scales work just fine. Good luck also...

[Nikita81]

Not only pilots are unhappy, but whole staff in EK.

This company died. These are just remains of a dead body.

And it seems to me that there are many EK bots on this forum, trying to improve the average of positive comments. :D

Whenever someone is writing "resign if you are not happy" or "you have to make your own happiness" you know it's a bot. They love to give to say this to you, it is their official policy, I think. Maybe one of th bots is Tim Clark himself. He is, probably, the only man happy in this company. Earning money on behalf his employees's misery. When he is passing stpc he doesn't even look at his staff, he doesn't say hello, he doesn't approach counter to check in himself. It gives pretty clear idea how the management sees us, isn't it?

And I liked when someone here said that there are many others in line waiting to work here, which gives to the management arrogant and self assured attitude. But this management is stupid id they think it is going to last. Not forever. Not even couple of years more. Resources are drained.

It should be Emirates plane in that 7500 movie, where all are dead but not knowing that. :}

[Jetlag787]

Is there any truth to the rumour that of the 8 days off a month that you are entitled to at EK, a few can be given while you are on a day off on duty outside of Dubai, i.e. outstation?

[scandistralian]

Stable the steps are a bit of a mystery, they aren't published anywhere.

To clarify, every year the following may occur;

1) A step increase is awarded
2) The overall scale is increased
3) Combination of 1+2
4) No increase or step

When you get your command you jump 10 steps, however bare in mind the time to upgrade for new joiners now will be similar to most legacy carriers.

In general a step only will never match inflation, hence the comments about wage erosion. I just did the budget for 2014/15 and even with two incomes the rapidly increasing cost of living here is really starting to hurt. If you are currently on the Airbus you may be offered direct entry 380 which is a great gig in terms of lifestyle/rosters.

Feel free to pm if you want more info.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Why would anyone from Europe or America join EK now????????

The pay is ridiculous!

I really don't get it. What am I missing????

[dubaigong]

Sam Ting Wong ,

For sure you are missing something...
Not all pilots in Europe and in America have the chance to work for a major airline.
Some of them are working for low cost , regional , small local companies or are even unemployed.
Some pilot working for regional companies earn in one year what a pilot in EK earn in less than 2 months.
This is only talking about wages but at EK they also get housing allowances or accomodation is provided , they receive school allowances for up to 3 children , medical insurance for them and all their family etc...
So maybe now it will make sense.

[fatbus]

STM , that's fine you just stay where you are!

[Threethirty]

So much for our pay rise eh Sam! The cost of living in HK I can assure you is way more than DXB, so in real terms the CX and EK packages are probably the same. I'd say the pollution is far less in DXB too!

[Wizofoz]

Is there any truth to the rumour that of the 8 days off a month that you are entitled to at EK, a few can be given while you are on a day off on duty outside of Dubai, i.e. outstation?

I imagine legally, yes.

But in practice you get at least 8 days off in Dubai, and usually more.

[Al Murdoch]

There is a rostering rule to give you at least 8 days in Dubai, as a I understand it. You can't reduce that in Eswap either.

[Avid Aviator]

You get 8 days off in DXB, unless temp based away - eg. outsourced training course.
However, your weekly day off (2 local nights in 7) can be at a layover port.

[odericko2000]

Pay and Benefits Shortage (http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/payandbenefitsshortage/)

[THRCLB]

Happy or unhappy ....( Add your colours to the mix) ...any one done the survey ? Have they sent this before? Personally never saw such thing before ?

[Flyboy_SG]

From what I see...... Pilots are unhappy in all the Airlines ! :hmm:


Hence proved !

There is no good Airline in the world :ugh:

Probably just in a fairy tale.... :oh:

[777boyindubai]

Bushbaby. Good points. EK Clinic now cares for around 17300 Cabin Crew 4000 or so Pilots, Numerous managers and dependents. Of course, some have gone out of the clinic but the numbers increase. Morale is at rock bottom and is drilling down further. There is one SVP, qualified as a nurse (but doesn't practice). 3VPs (rumours of a fourth for 3 people) A Clinic Operations Manager (a non practicing Nurse), Two senior administrators. All for around 180 staff. Please note that the clinic doesn't generate income for EK.

Oh, I forgot. If you consider everything with part timers and others who do speciality clinics, they are around 22 doctors. A senior AME just got poached for double the money at EY. The docs were informed (via a corporate comms mail) of the two new docs joining :ugh:

The management of the clinic are amazing communicators. Not.

[777boyindubai]

Bushbaby. Good points. EK Clinic now cares for around 17300 Cabin Crew 4000 or so Pilots, Numerous managers and dependents. Of course, some have gone out of the clinic but the numbers increase. Morale is at rock bottom and is drilling down further. There is one SVP, qualified as a nurse (but doesn't practice). 3VPs (rumours of a fourth for 3 people) A Clinic Operations Manager (a non practicing Nurse), Two senior administrators. All for around 180 staff. Please note that the clinic doesn't generate income for EK.

Oh, I forgot. If you consider everything with part timers and others who do speciality clinics, they are around 22 doctors. A senior AME just got poached for double the money at EY. The docs were informed (via a corporate comms mail) of the two new docs joining :ugh:

The management of the clinic are amazing communicators. Not.

[Tatarin]

Hi!
Is it truth,that EK provides:Accommodation,Education?Or there is a commercial trick?

[White Knight]

White Knight I do believe you are full of manure. You said everyone you come across is happy and you probably believe that. You also said you don't know any Americans that are leaving. 13 pilots left the company last month. I have moved up 36 positions this year alone and I don't know how many pilots left junior to me. Every American I have talked to have their applications in at US majors. If you tell yourself you are happy over and over you will not notice how things have detoriated at Emirates and that might be a good thing for you. I prefer to be a realist.

13 pilots left the company last month. I have moved up 36 positions this year alone and I don't know how many pilots left junior to me.

Gosh Cerbus, I didn't realise how junior you are... Going up 36 places!!! Wow! I must be far more senior 'cos my number hasn't risen by more than about 15... And no, I'm not full of manure, just say how it is!!!! Not EVERY American I'VE flown with is looking to head Stateside... But then again, JD fleet looking to do all of the sh1t flying, can't blame your bum-chums...

[Oscar84]

There is finally a bad time to join EK?

Because seems to be a bad place to work now, all the people writing in that forum hate the company, the schedule, the planes, the salary, the accommodation, the transport,...

[WhiteFly]

Oscar84 do not read and believe everything you see here...

Most pilots don't bother with pprune.. I am a lurker mostly myself but I have decided to write something of my personal experience.

I am about 4 years in EK and mostly very happy. Been on the littlebus for 2 years now and another 2 on the fatbus.
It always depends on where you are coming from I suppose but for me this the best job that I could have..
Rosters on the fatbus are really good and paywise I get 3 times more than before..


I really dislike the negative atmosphere of pprune but trust me not everybody is like this..
Sure about 50% of the people I fly with have something negative to say about the company but its not all that bad..
I always compare from back home and I still think its a great company to work for..
As for people leaving about 200+ have left in my 4 years..

Sure it might not be the glorious golden years of the past but I have never experienced them in the first place so I cant compare...

[montencee]

He's Greek and I have an idea that it's not so long ago that he was more or less 'paying to work' with an LCC. So he would be happy for now.

[fatbus]

"Our pay sucks, it's a fact. For a professional, international, expat pilot, it sucks."


Where has better TandC's? The reason I ask is I'll apply right away!

[whossorrynow]

Where has better TandC's?
Wasn't this done here a couple of weeks ago?

The thing is the bulk of this airlines crew are refugees from failed/failing and LC carriers, through timing/geography/personality or whatever they didn't get into what's left of the 'proper' airlines with the 'better Ts & Cs'. Apart from the US market it's too late for them now.

However this airline likes to promote itself as a serious rival to the 'real' airlines. As an employer it is not.

[WhiteFly]

Actually montencee it wasnt pay to fly but I was getting about the same as a GR2.... Atleast they payed for the type ratings :D

It mattered not.. it was the experience i needed for EK to open its doors to me which is all that counted...

[Oscar84]

Why EK is still hiring people on the A330?

when they will remove these planes from the EK fleet?

I think they are wasting time&money doing this Type for the new joiners...

[donpizmeov]

I think all new joiners should go to the 330, and then progress from there. But what the hey, seniority, what's that mean?

The don

[Oscar84]

There's no option to go directly to the 380?

On the web they are looking people for direct entry to the big one...

[BigGeordie]

Oscar you don't understand the way EK recruitment works. There are no options, they tell you which fleet you are going on and you take it or leave it (hot tip- if it is the A330, leave it). They do hire directly onto the A380 if you meet minimum Airbus experience requirements. Recently they have had trouble finding people who are that experienced so have been hiring onto the A330 and moving people across. They hate doing that as it costs them more money but at least it respects seniority a little.

[Oscar84]

That's ok.

But if you meet the minimuns to apply for the direct entry maybe, if they want, you will go to the 380.

Best regards

[120feet]

Remember EK already has half of the 380s it ordered. Meaning all the FO's that are there currently, plus all the 330/340 Captains, and now the 777 captains moving over will be sitting left seat before you. Which means if you are hired onto the 380, your command will come only due to pilot attrition. I would expect 15-17 year mark. If someone else comes up with different math I am happy to be corrected. The big variable currently is how many 777 guys are moving over.

[donpizmeov]

Current 330 FOs that are stuck until the fleet is gone, will not get to the 380 until when, 2018? Then have to do 2500hrs on the 380 before becoming eligible for a command on it, so 2022ish?
The new joiners on the 380 need three years in the company and 2500hrs on the 380, so mid 2018/2019?
Who knows.
There were over 600 FOs hired in 2010. The majority of them on the 777. There are fewer than 80 upgrades on the 777 this year. So I would suggest that any Fo on the Boeing or mini bus is in for a long wait. And a new joiner on the 380 must be very close to the same situation.
The quick commands ended some time ago.

The Don

[fatbus]

I think any fleet new hire is a long long way from an upgrade. When the 330 is gone , most. in 2016, FO's transfer and upgrade requirements will change then. Same with the Capt's, right now very few 330 Capt's have the 3000 command. 64 new hires on the 330 , I think it's 16 upgrades . 40 777 capts to 380(over 100 applied) no 777 FO 's to the 380. Makes room for some 777 upgrades but not many. 777 fleet has just about reached it max. Large number of 380 upgrades next year.

[Oscar84]

How much is a long way tonbe on the lhs for you?
How many years?
10 years maybe?

[Oscar84]

I know that in the European LCC with 3 years flying on the rhs and 3000h on type you are able to be on the lhs (ryanair, wizzair,...)

That's not the normal sense.

[Kempus]

Unhappy??

BA have just opened the door for 747 and 777 guys!

Good luck!

[ektrazz]

Yes most of us are annoyed , NO leave min off days all flight LR and all through the night !

[ektrazz]

Its like jail , you cannot really make jail a better place can you?
You can only escape !
You just lie there and wait for them to abuse you and you open your legs and take it without argue !

[ilariomaybe]

Your life is such a misery !:uhoh::uhoh:::uhoh:

What a moan , do yourself a favor and just go if it's that bad :ok:

Nothing will change complaining in this forum... Unfortunately

[The Zohan]

Gosh Cerbus, I didn't realise how junior you are... Going up 36 places!!!

some actual figures for a change:

on jan 1st 2014 we were 3523 pilots, today we're 3706.

since jan 1st pilot nr. 3500 in seniority gained 60 positions, nr. 3000 gained 54, nr. 2500 gained 48, nr. 2000 gained 43, nr. 1500 gained 38, nr. 1000 gained 28 and myself in the 500ish position gained about 15...

tz

[motojet]

It's nice to see actual facts instead of rumours. So an attrition rate of 2.1% by my (rough)calculation.

60 pilots left in approximately the first 9 months. At current rate about 80 for the year.

[1013 with altsel]

Does anyone believe that the rosters have increased up to 93 hours a month because EK are short of crew. Or do you think this will be the standard roster as time goes on??

I'm contemplating accepting a position with Ek and trying to imagine how you guys feel, being jet lagged and tired all the time!

How does living in one of these rosters feel?

Thanks in advance for the info!

[The Zohan]

this 92 hours every month thing is a bit of a myth, at least on the dugong.

again some actual figures:

between sep 1st 2013 and aug 31st 2014 I flew a bit more than 800 hours. only twice more than 90/month.

the following numbers are the hours I've flown each month as an A380 skipper, rounded up or down, not in chronological order, no sick days and all 42 days of leave were awarded.

27, 19, 98, 74, 75, 87, 77, 70, 58, 84, 52, 91

hardly a miserable life...:ok:

tz

[TangoUniform]

Good on ya mate, Zohan. 777 skipper with only 30 days leave and 91 hours per month except months with leave. If you think 92 constant hours is a myth, you been breathing too much of the wrong end of the camel. Haven't had my 42 days of leave in a couple of years now.

[TangoUniform]

Hey Z. I said basically, good for you. Didn't imply what you said was an untruth, as you did, saying 92 hrs was a myth. I said on the 777 92 IS the case. Perhaps we should use, "See spot run. Run spot run." For simplicity's sake. Implication is a bit over your head, maybe. And next month's roster....8 days off and one rest day. Whoppee!

[LHR Rain]

On the 380 nothing less than 85 hours all of last year.
This has been the case for the last 3 years so no these hours are not because of pilot shortages at Emirates but a carefully designed system to wear out Emirates pilots with chronic fatigue.
Join at the risk of your own health.

[harry the cod]

LHR Rain

So, assume there'll be a flood of 'chronic fatigue' reports being submitted through the FRMS soon? Or do you just moan and hope the problem will go away?

Harry

[1013 with altsel]

Is anyone happy on the 330 fleet?

[Rim-job]

NOPE!!!!

If you want to be depressed and question why you ever chose this career, join the A330 fleet.

It's a death sentence.

[TwoTone-7]

RIM - Intrigued, would it be fair to say the ones serving said death sentence are working their resignation notice period?!

[CaptainChipotle]

I have over 91 hrs this month, and have additional duties rostered that are unpaid. There is nothing like working for free!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I have over 91 hrs this month, and have additional duties rostered that are unpaid. There is nothing like working for free!

Um, what about salary.....???

[fatbus]

Non factored for pay , factored for FTLs

[CamelRustler]

I have just flown with my third FO in a month who is leaving for a European LCC job. One of the big issues with these guys is junior FO's are being moved over to 380 while they rot on the 330/340. This means when and if they get to the 380 they will have Captains that will be 3 years their junior. Now this may sound like an argument for joining the 330 fleet now, but its not. It's an argument to state that the company moves who it wants when it wants. So when you join on the 330 it could be for 2 years or until the fleet goes away sometime after 2018, more likely 2020. Whatever they tell you in the interview may be true only for that fraction of a moment, but it will most certainly change. But hey record low oil prices means record profit share!!:E

[VLS with ice]

Not everybody is unhappy, most of us are seriously p:mad: off... Too much to explain. Come and try for yourself....

[Dropp the Pilot]

Seat movement and moribund types have a long and tragic history at EK. If you ask some of the dinosaurs who joined EK on the 727, they will tell you of an entertaining conversation they had with management when that fleet was being wound down. They were told that when the 727 disappeared from EK so would they, as it was doubtful whether someone accustomed to something as crude as the 727 would be capable of safely flying something as sophisticated as an A310.

This is not an attempt at humour.

[maxred]

Resigned to the fact that it could be SO much more yet it is not.

An early post by trader. Ithe comment could be applicable throughout the organization.

had never flown on them until recently, and I was so underwhelmed as a pax, I doubt I would ever fly them again. The most noticeable difference was the leg on the 777, was ok if you are into that sort of thing. The African leg on the A340, was frankly diabolical. Service level, and the fact the thing was literally falling to bits, and no one appeared to care.....

[BPN787]

Intereting discussion about EK, I know one of the biggest issues was that the facilities department run by AS, aquired a major development near Meydan in a part of Dubai under development in other words not near schools or shops. The development was designed for 500 houses but AS decided to reduce costs and squeezed in many more so that living there is similar to a military camp.

Then to add fuel to the fire he mandated that many of the long term experienced pilots who were living is established parts of Duabi for many years had move into this place, as no one voluntered when they saw it. So end result a lot of unhappy pilots who are in great demand in many parts of the world and as a consequence EK have a pilot shortage and have had to ground aircraft.

Now any professional organiation in this situation would deal with this problem and the instigator would have been fired, but for some people you cant do that so expect a few crazy decisions in the organisation for the forseeable future. Having said taht it is a great place to live and bring up a family.

[cerbus]

Nice place to raise a family? What are you comparing this place to, Africa? S America? Come now. The heat and fatigue is starting to get to you.

[fliion]

Cerbus - any evidence to suggest that those raised in Dubai are making less of a mark on the world?

[mmmbop]

Cerbus - any evidence to suggest that those raised in Dubai are making less of a mark on the world?

Filion,

Anu evidence that those raised in Dubai are making an equal mark on the world?

Lets cut the delusion for a minute. If you come from a Western Country Meydan South and Meydan Height are sh1tholes. End of Story. Any argument to the contrary is simply trying to convince yourself that your decision to move to Emirates and live in Dubai was the right one.

[fliion]

Actually yes. For those who have been here awhile, the three most popular schools outrank UK in academic achievements. Kent too early to tell but the signs so far are positive.

The UK ranks #20 on the OECD education ranking, the US is number 28

Last year the school my kids attend averaged 35 on IB ranking. 92% scored higher than the UK average.

The UK averaged 30 in IB.

With A levels DC scored way above the UK average and DESC on grades other than A also scored above the average.

As you know these results dictate the Uni’s that are offered to these kids and as such launch them into the next stage.

I don’t live in Meydan but I know lots of families who have the attitundal balance to raise great kids in ANY environment, including Meydan etc

Most of this is up to the parents.

You can make most kids lives great or fill it with negativity. One of the reasons many stay is our kids love the school, their friends, their sports clubs, the diversity of their circle, the incredible opportunities to travel etc., the safety of the city.

I am with you on the Co. 100% ... but to suggest that a good family cannot be raised here is wrong. Lol my best bud grew up in Brazzaville - top man, great family.

[dustyflightdeck]

Ek is still living off its previous reputation in regards to the job in lots of applicants eyes - even though they've been warned people still come expecting lots and get disappointed very quickly.
Emirates used to be a place people aimed to get to and stay until retirement, now its a place people use as a stepping stone before moving on!


This right here, people. Listen to this man as his post is very accurate. I spent over a decade building the hours required to join EK (before they cut the requirements) because of what it once was, only to find after I joined that it is long gone and will never return. There is a reason we are parking 20 a/c at DWC this month! There is a reason they have to "open the pipeline as wide as possible" for recruitment! And yet despite all this they still refuse to change anything to keep people here!! They are going to make ~6bn profit this year and they say they have "limited funds" for pay rise!! Simply put, they don't care any more!!!! They could have changed years ago if they wanted to, but they didn't and they won't. I wish I understood this 3 years ago before I went through the recruitment process and locked myself into a 5 year bond only to find that Dubai cost of living is sky rocketing and pay is going down! I came because of the "old" EK reputation, because of the once big pay check and because of the career development that came with it. All gone! Everyone wants to get out of here, even the turbo prop joiners! Some have already left and gone back to the turbo props! What does that tell you!!

[Odins Raven]

The schooling comparisons are totally misleading. Of course the best private schools in Dubai perform better than the average state schools in the UK - it’s a totally different set of pupils attending them. How many dysfunctional kids from broken homes are attending private schools in Dubai? The average Dubai expat child has well-educated parents who are probably also above-average in intelligence hence why they’ve been recruited to work over there.

From my experience over in Dubai, JESS was a very good school with absolutely outstanding facilities. In terms of the actual standard of education it was similar to a very good UK state school. Interestingly, if you look at the UK you might be surprised to find the famous schools such as Eton, way behind on the results table. Cardiff Sixth Form College has the best A-level results, and that’s with your bog-standard average Welsh pupils.

[harry the cod]

You signed on the dotted line based on the 'old EK'? With a comment such as that, no wonder you're not happy here. Please don't use the same criteria if you go to BA looking for your next job.

Perhaps a bit more research and applying some basic due diligence is needed?

Good post by the way fliion

Harry

[27k]

Even guys with < 1 year in the company are running away.
this guy around the corner in MS just pulled one, back to ezy.

When they put you in Meydan South (highly likely) don’t be surprised when you end up on that FB page just because in someone’s opinion you didn’t behave properly doing whatever.

MS, EK’s compound and they can’t even finish a communty centre within 3 / 4 years of having people actually living in it.
Every 6 months they will send an email with a new opening month but there is always another delay coming.

No villa’s to be sold or rented out so who cares.

That’s exactly how they will treat you and your family.

[Emma Royds]

Mu own view is that the number of pilots at EK that are unhappy is relatively small, since I feel that many know it is time to leave if you ever reach that stage. However I would say that a sizeable number are disillusioned with the company. The degree of and the reason for this disillusionment does vary between colleagues but what is worthy of note is that many choose to leave before they even reach the stage of being unhappy.

[hitansh]

What are the exact reasons for this disappointment ?
I head an Indian at a public place who is working as a ground instructor in their academy who was telling his buddy that there is ethinic discrimination and its not the organisation that it used to be, but did not mention the precise reasons.

[donpizmeov]

The aviation academy that opened in Nov already isn't the organisation it use to be? That happened fast .:ugh:

[SOPS]

Good catch, Don. 😀😀😀

[harry the cod]

Never know which is worst, arrogance or ignorance?

In that example Mr.Staynes, I think it might be both!

Harry

[harry the cod]

SS

Er....think you completely mis read my post there friend. I wasn't having a pop at you at all, in fact, far from it. Apologies if construed that way as I was actually in agreement with you!

My reference was to the comment made from the EVP Comercial Officer, T.A. How he can expect 170 cadets to fill an ever increasing void is beyond me. Even someone with the most basic of intelligence would see that they are going to be years away from a full and efficient line operation. He must be aware that 4500 pilots will know this so it merely feeds our suspicion that the Company is either lying and doesn't care or, is generally unaware of how dire the situation really is.

Either way, it just makes them look stupid.

Harry

[Jack D]

SS

Er....think you completely mis read my post there friend. I wasn't having a pop at you at all, in fact, far from it. Apologies if construed that way as I was actually in agreement with you!

My reference was to the comment made from the EVP Comercial Officer, T.A. How he can expect 170 cadets to fill an ever increasing void is beyond me. Even someone with the most basic of intelligence would see that they are going to be years away from a full and efficient line operation. He must be aware that 4500 pilots will know this so it merely feeds our suspicion that the Company is either lying and doesn't care or, is generally unaware of how dire the situation really is.

Either way, it just makes them look stupid.

Harry

The problem is the general public , the press and most employees who are not pilots or involved in flt ops don’t know this .

That is the target audience and they’ll swallow the story because that’s what they are led to believe, namely that a 170 cadets will be ready to join the line in a matter of weeks and all required pilot numbers will be magically restored .

[harry the cod]

And that's just the point Jack. The actual problem will still be here in a few months, and will be even bigger. What will they say then? More pilots left than they thought? Summer always a difficult time to recruit? Chinese upped their packages? More American pilots left for US jobs than they expected?

Everyone is beyond tired of the excuses. Just get the wallet out, pay a decent salary increase to retain and attract. Then, with sufficient numbers, sort the rostering debacle by having a system that actually works by removing daft restrictions. It's not rocket science!

Harry

[dustyflightdeck]

My thoughts exactly. While such a pathetic excuse might keep the public/media quiet for a while, it will be blindingly obvious when 20+ a/c are still parked come August and they are still cancelling flights. What their end game is, I have no idea??

[Goldencane]

Harry mentions "daft restrictions" exactly what roster restrictions are we talking about here.

They must be there for a reason....mandatory FTL's and company soft rules?

Name a few.

[glofish]

Any doomsday theory is fake news by the bad media, fed by very bad pilots.
Wonderful local talent will be on line just in time to replace the lazy, ungrateful and indisciplined immigrant unbelievers.

(i think i already heard similar bs somewhere else by an equally dumb tw@t, who created a lot of the mess himself in the first place)

[guts]

Hey Harry,
How would one even respond to glofish? Maybe the better question is why would any professional respond to such bias dished out by a local. However this post shows the underlying resentment of some locals and obviously some management towards its Xpat work force. I think glofish's response speaks volumes and offers insight into the minds of many on the property, which by the way has not been my experiance. Maybe he's right, fake news is that airplanes are parked, fake news there's a pilot shortage, fake news Ek pilots are Bad, Lazy, Ungrateful, and are Immigrant Unbelievers.
Here is some real news glofish you cant fix stupid. GFYS.

[SOPS]

Harry mentions "daft restrictions" exactly what roster restrictions are we talking about here.

They must be there for a reason....mandatory FTL's and company soft rules?

Name a few.

No, the rostering ‘ rules’ are in place simply to be spiteful, put in by the same person who thought up the new duty free ‘ rules’

[givemewings]

Rules... here's one. The east/west min times between flights rule. Supposedly not a legality but a "business rule" to minimise fatiguing patterns and timezones.

Rigidly applied when trying to swap, but totally legal when they roster less and you query it.

I get why the rule exists, but it's to prevent repeated use of those patterns, not the one off you actully want to do.

Ditto for rostering ULR after short blocks of leave, rendering 5 days pretty much useless for travel except elsewhere in the Gulf.

[mmmbop]

Fliion,

Fair comment. Had I been back to Pprune earlier, though, I would have commented along the lines of Odin's Raven where it's not really comparing apples with apples.

As an aside, if you go to OECD Social Progress Index you'll see some interesting data. UAE: Foundation of Wellbeing -"No data". UK, access to basic knowledge - "98.46." I think those stats tell the real story of Dubai vs Western World.