What happens to personnel serving in the armed forces if Scotland gets independence?

[tomdocherty72]

I asked the above question of the yes Campaign and received this in response:(Bold highlights are mine)

"Chapter 6 of "Scotland's Future" sets out proposals for defence and the armed forces, with page 244 setting out the arrangements for personnel.

Below are the most relevant paragraphs, which make clear the continuity of rights and entitlements for those who take up the offer of transfer to the Scottish defence forces - though this would be purely a matter of choice.

"The Scottish Government respects the service of current personnel. We will ensure that all current service personnel will be eligible for a post in the Scottish defence forces, though they will not need to take it up.

"All service personnel will have the reassurance that they will not face compulsory redundancy during their service contract. This Scottish Government would examine how the terms and conditions of service personnel could be improved, for example through the official representation of service personnel.

"Where whole or part of units are identified for transfer to Scottish defence forces, the Scottish Government will ensure that all current UK service personnel within those units can remain with them for at least a transitional period, where they wish to do so. A similar approach will be followed for reserve personnel and the important role of cadet forces will also be maintained.

"The aim will be a phased and responsible approach to the position of those currently serving in the UK armed forces who might wish to transfer to Scottish defence forces. Some may transfer immediately, while others would continue in their current role. It is our intention that terms and conditions remain harmonised through this period. Any sensible approach would recognise that, at the end of that process, it is highly likely that citizens from the rest of the UK, Ireland and from other Commonwealth countries would be serving in an independent Scotland’s defence forces. Though it would ultimately be a decision for the rest of the UK, we also expect that Scottish citizens will continue to serve in UK forces if they wish to, as citizens of Ireland and the Commonwealth do."

In our view independence also means we can make a significantly better job of looking after our service personnel than the UK Ministry of Defence which has presided over compulsory redundancies, falling morale, and poor procurement and provision of equipment."

I did not receive a response to my question about the composition of the Scottish Armed Forces - no and type of units, squadrons, ships etc.

[Sandy Parts]

The 'Yes' team can make whatever 'pie-in-the -sky' promises they like. It won't be down to them even if they win the referendum. It will be up to the RemainingUK to decide how it deals with its Armed Forces. Scotland will have voted to leave those organisations so have forfeited the right to dictate thier future (in my opinion of course - and I have a vote in it!)

[alwayslookingup]

Yawn. Taxation raised in Scotland has paid for approx 10% of the defence assets, so Scotland would be entitled to a negotiated 10% value of the assets if the vote is for independence.

A more pertinent question. If Scotland becomes independent, would England/Wales/Northern Ireland consider it possible to defend themselves against a threat from the North without negotiating to station assets on Scottish soil? Lossie/Kinloss/Leuchars have a very commanding view north. What would they be replaced by in England/Wales/Northern Ireland.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Simple, Scots in service of the Crown in the "British" forces become Mercenaries.

Look to Ireland for your answer.

[Roadster280]

Yawn. Taxation raised in Scotland has paid for approx 10% of the defence assets, so Scotland would be entitled to a negotiated 10% value of the assets if the vote is for independence.

I hadn't realized that. I believe the current MOD asset balance is ~92bn pounds. The population of the UK is ~60M. 92bn/60M=roughly 1500 pounds.

According to the entitlement outlined above, I should be entitled to 1500 pounds because I paid for one 60 millionth of it, and then left the UK. Where do I send the bill?

What's that, I hear you say? "F*ck off"?.

Well, quite.

[Sandy Parts]

alwayslookingup - I join a club that gives me benefits and, while a member, pay an annual subscription. If I then choose to leave - I don't expect to get back my membership fees for the years I've been a member.
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully.

[Al R]

Interesting thoughts on North Sea oil revenue from OBR this morning. Para35 refers.

http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.org.uk/41298-OBR-accessible.pdf

[Roadster280]

A more pertinent question. If Scotland becomes independent, would England/Wales/Northern Ireland consider it possible to defend themselves against a threat from the North without negotiating to station assets on Scottish soil? Lossie/Kinloss/Leuchars have a very commanding view north. What would they be replaced by in England/Wales/Northern Ireland.

Keeping a few uppity Scots (sans Army) out of England would be pretty straightforward. Replicate Hadrian's Wall a bit further north; that would be a start.

If you're talking about air defence, then why would the UK have to? It would be Scotland's problem. What's that? Don't want to? Well you'll have to, if you want to join NATO & the EU.

Scotland can't cherry pick what it wants to do. If it goes independent, then as well as the trucks full of honey heading north, they'll have to take some pig**** too.

[melmothtw]

alwayslookingup - I join a club that gives me benefits and, while a member, pay an annual subscription. If I then choose to leave - I don't expect to get back my membership fees for the years I've been a member.
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully

Of course, all that presupposes that the UK is England's 'club'.

Do love these Scottish independence debates. I give it a couple more posts before it slides into anarchy and bedlam...

[baffman]

Simple, Scots in service of the Crown in the "British" forces become Mercenaries.
Look to Ireland for your answer.

With all due respect to that comment from Holly Beach Louisiana.

HM Forces personnel are not mercenaries. The UK armed forces includes personnel from across the Commonwealth as well as Ireland, and has done for years. There is no reason why that should not continue to some extent in the event of a 'Yes' vote in the referendum.

BTW I am not making a pro-independence point. But on this particular issue of the treatment of forces personnel in the event of independence, the White Paper proposals quoted by the OP are sensible, in so far as they go.

[tucumseh]

and poor procurement and provision of equipment.

None of this affects me, but I'm very impressed with this short extract. I wonder if they actually know the difference between procurement and provisioning. MoD don't. They abandoned the latter in 1988, which accounts for so many projects being "over-budget" but the cost being fair and reasonable. Might be due to that historical "canniness" with money.



Replicate Hadrian's Wall a bit further north; that would be a start.

You mean re-build Atonine's Wall? The North of Scotland Assembly could then re-locate to Dingwall, declare a 50 mile fishing limit and build more Hydro schemes. Bob's your uncle.

[XR219]

Yawn. Taxation raised in Scotland has paid for approx 10% of the defence assets, so Scotland would be entitled to a negotiated 10% value of the assets if the vote is for independence.
By what law, agreement or convention would Scotland be "entitled" to this?

A more pertinent question. If Scotland becomes independent, would England/Wales/Northern Ireland consider it possible to defend themselves against a threat from the North without negotiating to station assets on Scottish soil? Lossie/Kinloss/Leuchars have a very commanding view north. What would they be replaced by in England/Wales/Northern Ireland
RAF Leeming would probably be far enough north to adequately defend the new northern frontier of the UK?

[melmothtw]

By what law, agreement or convention would Scotland be "entitled" to this?


The Vienna Convention of 1983 on the succession of states sets out how assets and liabilities of a state which divides into two or more new states should be apportioned between the new states.

Google is my friend.

[teeteringhead]

Faslane SBA anyone??

[engineer(retard)]

Google is my friend

United Nations Audiovisual Library of International Law (http://legal.un.org/avl/ha/vcssrspad/vcssrspad.html)

Some twenty-six years after its adoption, however, the 1983 Convention has yet to enter into force. The 1983 Convention requires only fifteen States to consent to be bound by it to enter into force,

[melmothtw]

Oh bugger!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Talk of "mercenaries" and Scots serving in the armed forces at the point of independence being similar to current Commonwealths citizens confuses me.

I live in Scotland, commute weekly like what seems like 95% of the RAF to England, and I was born in Scotland. I have a British passport and I consider myself British.

If Scotland becomes independent, I'm sure I'll be entitled to citizenship there. However, where's the part in the process where I suddenly lose my British citizenship?

If Scotland becomes independent, plenty of us will consider staying exactly where we are in the jobs we have, as befits our British citizenship.

[Boudreaux Bob]

f you're talking about air defence, then why would the UK have to? It would be Scotland's problem. What's that? Don't want to? Well you'll have to, if you want to join NATO & the EU.

What if they elect NOT to join the EU and NATO?

[Phoney Tony]

Those in Scotland should vote for an independent Scotland because they think it is a good idea not because of financial reasons. Financial reasons are all subject to policy and world events which can change overnight.


At the stroke of a pen oil prices can crash, taxes raised and benefits/services cut.

If Scotland is not in EU the boarder will need to be closed to stop immigration.

[melmothtw]

The border would not need to be closed. No more than the border with the US, Australia, New Zealand etc is closed.

[Phoney Tony]

There are agreements with the US etc. There are noon place with Scotland.

[gr4techie]

Will we get a payrise in the Scottish Republican Airforce? No f'ing NEM or PAYD.

[melmothtw]

There are agreements with the US etc. There are noon place with Scotland.

Of course there aren't, because Scotland is part of the UK. Agreements such as this (and who gets what) would be thrashed out after an independence vote, not before it.

[gr4techie]

HM Forces personnel are not mercenaries.

Gurkhas ??

[Phoney Tony]

Thrashing things out takes time and money. Also you may not get want you hoped for.

If you think it's a good idea and are prepared to take the consequences vote yes but please do not assume everything will just fall into place.

[Bclass]

I join a club that gives me benefits and, while a member, pay an annual subscription. If I then choose to leave - I don't expect to get back my membership fees for the years I've been a member.
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully.

And if the committee went on a spending spree, tarting up the clubhouse with the finest furniture and heavily subsidising food and drink (benefits that you enjoy and make full use of), would you consider yourself liable to continue to pay fees to support that spending once you had left?

Just checking if your analogy and the principle behind it hold water...

[TomJoad]

alwayslookingup - I join a club that gives me benefits and, while a member, pay an annual subscription. If I then choose to leave - I don't expect to get back my membership fees for the years I've been a member.
I have already enjoyed the benefits of being a member so I'd consider my investment 'spent' accordingly. Whatever happens to that club or its assets in the future is no business of mine - I've chosen to leave. Hey ho - all theoretical thankfully.

Err no not really, certainly not by any measure of international law governing such. You may be interested to note that HM UK Gov has already agreed to the mechanism in principle to be taken forward in the negotiation of the "settlement". Not like leaving a club at all them but more like dissolution of a contract and final disposal of assets.

[engineer(retard)]

If Scotland becomes independent, I'm sure I'll be entitled to citizenship there. However, where's the part in the process where I suddenly lose my British citizenship?

If Scotland becomes independent, plenty of us will consider staying exactly where we are in the jobs we have, as befits our British citizenship.

The UK government has to ensure that you do not become stateless, but also has no obligation to give you dual citizenship. As a betting man, I would expect they would just let your UK passport expire and not renew it. Working in the UK as a non-EU citizen would need a bit of sorting out as well. If you are still serving your security clearances may need revising if you are dual citizen as well.

I'm sure it will be fine on the day.

[4everAD]

I'm quite confident that most of the people who say they will vote for independence will change their mind when it comes time to place their crosses, common sense will prevail (hopefully).

[Sandy Parts]

er - have you tried getting into the US, Aus or NZ lately? :) Perhaps poor choice of word - "controlled" would be better than "closed". See the rather tedious online blurb on Schengen(sp?) for more.

[Sandy Parts]

for Bclass -I wouldn't feel I need to pay for excesses committed after I've left the club. If however, the club accounts show that the treasurer wasn't adjusting the membership fee to stay on top of expenditure and therefore I was 'under-charged' while a emember, I suppose they could try and ask me for some more money after I've gone:p (Don't think I'd pay mind).
But I also wouldn't use that as a bargaining chip to say I should be entitled to the nice new chairs they bought while I was a member. (Lets see how long we can stretch this analogy out :})

[ORAC]

Reference nationality. Cross-post from something I linked to in the Jet Blast thread on the same subject.......

Thought this would be of interest. Stipulates who would be granted Scottish nationality after independence and whether they could retain British nationality.

DECLARATION ON THE CONSEQUENCES OF STATE SUCCESSION FOR THE NATIONALITY OF NATURAL PERSONS (http://legislationline.org/documents/action/popup/id/7960) adopted by the European Commission for Democracy through Law at its 28th Plenary Meeting - Venice, 13-14 September 1996

......13. a. In all cases of State succession, when the predecessor State continues to exist, the successor State(s) shall grant the right of option in favour of the nationality of the predecessor State.

b. When two or more States succede to a predecessor State which ceases to exist, each of the successor States shall grant the right of option in favour of the nationality of the other successor States.

Council of Europe Convention on the Avoidance of Statelessness in relation to State Succession (http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/200.htm) - Strasbourg 2006.

[MarkD]

Not sure why Scotland would be obliged to provide similar air defence to the current set up to join the EU. It's not like Ireland provides any AD of that sort.

NATO would be another matter, but that would open the question of what's in it for Scotland to commit to joining that organisation, beyond the thinking that the Americans would meddle in the separation process if they didn't.

[BEagle]

Will the expat PWs be sent back to join the Jockistani Defence Force?

[adminblunty]

I'd imagine the Scottish Government will offer all armed forces personnel the opportunity to transfer to the Scottish Armed Forces, if someone elects to remain part of rUK Armed Forces I can't see how any government can force anyone to join the Scottish Armed Forces against their will, to do so will require primary legislation being passed in Westminster and Scotland and be subject to challenge in the courts no doubt. I doubt many rUK MPs will vote through legislation forcing rUK citizens to live and work in the Scotland. So assuming the Scottish get plenty of volunteers it should work out ok... If of course they don't get enough volunteers, or they get the wrong mix(i.e lots of infantrymen and not many pilots, engineers, etc) the Scottish Armed Forces will have a problem, unless they offer a compelling T&Cs proposition to get personnel join, which will cost them. Of course they could be inundated with volunteers and have the problem of selecting the right people, i.e is place of birth a selection criteria, if so would it be discriminatory?

I was posted to Scotland for a year and if this happened when I was there I would have firmly decided to remain part of the rUK Armed Forces and declined the Scottish offer and sought to move south pdq.
Imagine manning in a post yes vote situation trying to post a non-scot to Scotland against their will. It's a can of worms of epic proportions and we haven't even mentioned the kit.

[Courtney Mil]

One thing's for sure. In the event of a Yes vote, all the negotiations and the enactment of any agreements will cost the populations of both countries a small fortune. Sorry, did I say "countries"? I meant their tax payers. Did I say "small"? ...

A lot of companies will not want to wait for the outcomes to start moving N or S of the border - if, for example, they feel that the N market were too small or the difficulties in currency, separated markets, tax issues, EU border issues, etc., we're too complex or disadvantageous. That will cost them a fortune too.

With no answers whatsoever on the distribution of assets, personnel, etc., it is way too early for anyone to have enough information this side of (many moons after) the referendum. If Forces Pensions are so uncertain now, imagine what YES would do.

Good luck!

[Courtney Mil]

Oh, and regarding borders, don't we all need visas to go to USA, Aus, NZ, etc!? Have you seen the process one needs to go through to emigrate to NZ?

I think it fair to describe the current state of the Eng/Sco border as "open". You could miss it on the train or BA Shuttle and the Border Force on the road are represented by a large rock. Compare that with, say (just for mischief) the Mexico/US border (imagining Scottish families trying to cross whatever stream represents the Rio Grande to get into England).

An open border is yet another unknown quantity in this issue. But I'm Mr S has another empty promise to offer on that one.

[melmothtw]

Yes, all those countries require visas Courtney. Of course, the prospect of 'closed' borders doesn't seem to phase those arguing for the UK to leave the EU, many of whom are also in the 'No' camp on the question of Scottish independence.

[Bclass]

Sandy Parts - not going to drag out the analogy further, but it was useful in making a point i.e. those that think the club leavers have no entitlement to a share of the assets have to apply the same principle to the liabilities.

With UK national debt somewhere in the region of £1,300 Billion (and growing), I think a rUK chancellor would be extremely stupid to turn down the opportunity to lop 10% off that figure. With that in mind should Scotland vote yes there is no question that negotiations will take place to apportion assets.

[Red Line Entry]

The interesting aspect will be the Scottish Govt's negotiating position following a Yes vote. They will have very few levers to apply: if London offers them a crap deal, what are they going to say? 'Allright then, we'll stay?"

Personally, in the event of a Yes vote, I think the Scots may be surprised by the subsequent mood in England. A single currency might (or might not) make sense, but I guess that the English people will say, 'Up yours, Jock' and have no desire to be generous.

[melmothtw]

I think the Scots may be surprised by the subsequent mood in England.

I guess that the English people will say, 'Up yours, Jock'

And the surprise will be?

[diginagain]

It's going to be interesting watching JPA handle the £-€ conversion at the end of every month...

[Courtney Mil]

Yes, all those countries require visas Courtney. Of course, the prospect of 'closed' borders doesn't seem to phase those arguing for the UK to leave the EU, many of whom are also in the 'No' camp on the question of Scottish independence.

Of course that is totally relevant to the question about the future of our people in the event of YES. But I do see why you would want to divert attention from the points being made. I'm also very impressed that you appear to know how voters will stand in two referenda that haven't even happened yet - one that may not even happen.

Anyway, other possible future events apart and returning to the thread, the issue of borders is likely to have more to do with excise than anything else. Different currencies, tax systems and trade agreements would certainly require some form of control.

[melmothtw]

Easy Courtney, it was you who brought up the subjects of visas for the US etc. I was just responding to your post.

And this entire thread is focused on a referendum that hasn't happened yet, no?

I agree that some form of border control will be required, just as it is between neighbouring countries all over the world. Though not wishing to presuppose the results of an election that hasn't happened yet, I'd suggest that the border controls between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK (unless both in the EU) might more closely resemble the US and Canada than the US and Mexico. It would make the most sense to both parties. IMHO

[ETOPS]

I've seen it reported that, should Scotland become independent, we would be known as the Former United Kingdom..........

Should look interesting on the map :eek: