Open Letter to GCAA

[MasterYodaEK]

Dear PPrune EK members,

Please add below your griefs and comments in a letter I will send to the GCAA.
Flight, Duty period legality, Tiredness,.........

MasterYodaEK, Stef.

[ruserious]

Getting to airport over 2 hours before STD and sitting in a/c 1h50 before is becoming the new norm, as station managers lobby for earlier pick ups in case it happens to be a bad traffic day. Also to mitigate Cabin Crew inability to get ready for boarding on time.

Likewise being at briefing just shy of 2 hours before STD in DXB

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Getting to airport over 2 hours before STD and sitting in a/c 1h50 before is becoming the new norm, as station managers lobby for earlier pick ups in case it happens to be a bad traffic day.

Not good - but be wary of the Airport Hotel being offered instead

[EK380]

3 Crew ULR's is hopefully high on the list?

[givemewings]

mitigate Cabin Crew inability to get ready for boarding on time.

More like the schedule being so tight that the second they get on board it's all 'Crew security checks' and yet mysteriously the call being made for said checks is often well before the allotted 12-15mins. It's the assertive ones insisting on doing them per the checklist (however long that may take) that hold up boarding.... and well done to them...

Perhaps better allocation of pre-flight duties should be on the list. Let the cleaning crew put the smelly sprays in the toilets and prep the towels (like they used to) and leave the cabin crew to do the actual important stuff...

[Old King Coal]

Rest periods in between 18 - 30 hours.

[ExpatBrat]

I think it was NASA at their Ames Research Center in San Diego years ago that determined the most dangerous length of a layover in terms of fatigue when you come back to the airport was 24 hours. They concluded 18 hours was safer so the pilot was returning to work right on the heels of his sleep. Either that or 36 hours. But 24? That just means the guy is coming back to work when his body is telling him it's bedtime again.

The whole thing of arriving at work here in Dubai 2 hours before push when our official duty only starts one hour before has always bugged me. I mean, it's obviously a lie and I just always wondered how they got away with that...even with the airline's symbiotic relationship with the GCAA.

[THRCLB]

What IF , that every flight u show up at 1hr10 min at the briefing !? Are you breaking any law ??

[The Guru]

Regulatory requirements not counting as part of duty hours (SEP, CRM etc.), and then SIM/PPC not counting as part of flight duty period unless they occur on the same say as an actual flight.

[MasterYodaEK]

and that's it? nothing else?
I am quite disappointed, I thought more EK guys had things to point out, and it was here the right post to speak up!

Everyone's happy about the slavery conditions and some illegal operations?
Annex 1 reading: shall have a minimum of a local night rest IMMEDIATELY prior to the scheduled report time... look at MLE, BLR...

[fatbus]

If you only send it to the GCAA it will never see the light of day, copy FAA,CAA etc.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Not many folk left at CAA!!

[Alconguin Crusader]

FACTORING!

[Pattz]

Clarification of ULR ops.

Under GCAA CAAP 14, ULR is a flighttime that could exceed 16h any time during a calendar year taking into account the mean and seasonal wind changes.

In EK it is 14h. Can they then make up their own ULR rules as long as the flight time doesn't exceed 16h?

Main differences under GCAA CAAP 14 are:

Each ULR flight is to be operated by no less than four (4) pilots of whom two (2) must be pilot-in-command qualified.

Rest Period Away from Base shall be at least 48 hours.

All crew members (Flight and cabin crew) shall be scheduled for a minimum of 2 days off including 03 local nights of rest in base upon completion of a ULR pairing followed by any other duty or a ULR pairing. (Not sure if this is what the cabin crew are always getting)

Cabin crew shall be provided with a minimum in flight rest period of (3 1/2) hours for any ULR flight. (Again, not always the case. Specially on the 380)

There is no mentioning of 3 pilots ULR.

So whats the story?

[Desert Driver]

Guys,
All these issues are not ever going to be addressed in this way. The variations from CAR OPS have all been approved by the GCAA. The OM-A and all the amending FSI's are all GCAA approved so if the company does not comply with it's own manuals, then it can be addressed by the GCAA who will issue a notification of non-compliance.
Every Airline I have worked for does the same. Going to the GCAA to complain about the airline variations that the GCAA has approved will simply end in what's your point they are doing as approved, or have I missed something here.
DD

[kingpost]

Factoring will not have been approved!!

[ekwhistleblower]

DD,

Not sure 3 pilot ULR has, just because there is a published rest plan I am certain it doesn't overide the following statement. The only mention of 3 crew ops is as follows:

"Where flight crew sickness occurs at short notice, which would impact the departure of the flight inbound to Dubai on an ULR flight sector only, the Commander may elect to complete the flight with only 3 flight crew"

Note "inbound" and "short-notice". More interestingly, the 22hrs rule is only based on 4 crew so if 3, non ULR rules apply and I would apply standard FTLs as you can't mix and match the regs.

Were one of these operations to go awry I would not want to have authorised this when the feds come knocking and see how it fits in with CAAP 14. Take your pick as to who would get it in the neck in management?

[Desert Driver]

My comments were made trying to be constructive, in that the open letter may not be the best way to use the system to effect change. I would say that quality assurance or whatever is the appropriate title these days is the way to go. Question the potential non- compliance with them and let the system do the work.
Stay professional.
DD

[Desert Driver]

Kingpost,
Factoring was approved based on a response to a non-compliance several years ago, the interpretation has often been subjective. Factoring is internationally recognised as a way to comply in principle as opposed to specific detail. So you can have standard reporting times or general approved timings. The interpretation comes that a flight engineers time counts as 25% towards license or ratings. So if he completes 4000hours as a FE he is credited with 1000 hours to his CPL/ATPL but he is still limited to 900 hours a year for absolute limits. This has been then interpreted that factoring can be used for absolute limits. In other words that FE would be able to fly 400 hours in 28 days or 3600 hours in the preceding 12 calendar months.
So factoring was approved but the interpretation has not been in the spirit of the rule, but GCAA did approve it.
DD

[Schnowzer]

DD I agree. Whinging on PPrune won't get anywhere but I understand why the frustrations lead to it. I did a 3 man JFK recently, I have always enjoyed the trips in the past but this one was truly knackering and I won't be bidding for them again but what protections really are there? You just have to hope the operators within Flt Ops stand up to the bean counters. Judging by the SW there is little chance of that!

[harry the cod]

Schnowzer

Did you submit a fatigue report? I also make a point not to bid for the 3 man US flights but that only masks some of the issues. Reports are the only way to see change on these pairings.

Harry

[harry the cod]

I totally agree, which is why we should play by the same rules. Bombard them with fatigue reports day after day after day! Put in Confidential reports, ASR's and even write direct to fleet and flight safety for clarification of rules. Notice how several recent ASR's have been referred to regulatory affairs. We'll never get feedback. That response is for auditing purposes to show that the concern is being addressed. One or two are easy to ignore, 40-50 less so. Sir TC reads the weekly ASR's so make them count!

Harry

[kingpost]

DD

Factoring, as you quite rightly mention, is a system used for the attainment of a higher license, not as a duty bound tool.

The CARS state that a maximum of 900 block hours a year, so that applies whether you're augmenting or not!

[rdr]

The main problem with the Gulf airlines, is the foreigner element in management.
You get these daisies from around the world, intent in proving how cleverer they are than each other, and falling at the feet of the locals.
So, they end up screwing the lives for all and sundry, for their own advancement.

[777747]

Unfortunately nobody really cares to try change things at EK anymore, we are all beaten down by the numerous changes and too fatigued. Not to mention the petty stuff like four days off then a night turn b4 VAC.

This is no longer a career job and everyone I've flown with in the last 2 years has their eye on the door. As we all know the only vote here is with your feet.

Its a valiant gesture though, writing to the GCAA..

[pole shift]

Please incude fatiguing rosters at FZ, especially for low seniority pilots that fly consecutive night flights. I am sure the GCAA will not be very happy to discover that some people, only fly 6-7 day flights per month and get 20+ days off per month, whilst others, the less privileged, barely have 8 or 9 days off per month, with ALL their flights being at night time. I witnessed someone that fell asleep prior to glideslope capture in Dubai, whilst at the same time I was struggling to keep my eyes open.
Please do that my friend. May be is the only way for the donkey workers at FZ to get decent and non fatiguing rosters and improve safety, and at the same time stop this ridiculous practice, that benefits the spoiled few.

[dubaigong]

Did you file an ASR about it ? Did you file any EFOS report ?
I see many guys complaining at FZ about things that ( I agree ) should be modified BUT none of them has filed a report.
So how do you expect to see changes if no report are being received by the company.
Did you use the ROSI or VORSY system ? There is even now a confidential reporting system concerning any safety issue , did you try it ?
And please don't come with the usual "we are not in a democracy here so I can not report it " I have heard that one for many years in every companies I have been working for , even in Europe.
There is always a good reason not to act BUT then don't complain...
There is not always somebody else to sort out your problems.

[pole shift]

@dubaigong
Next time you feel tired please file an ASR, or a VORSY report. Then they will know who tries to fight with rostering and management and their implementations that are constructed to benefit the elite few. And then your life becomes miserable. There are examples of people that had their visas taken away or failed command line check for stupid reasons. So please spare me of that paternal tone on your writings, it makes me laugh. To make sure though your privileges are not threatened, you can use that tone on a new recruit or a wannabe pilot, it will definitely scare them off. :ok:

[kirungi1]

pole shift

You seem to echo rdr via post #25 by holding dubaigong to that context, or is this rather your other way of eulogizing? ;)

[harry the cod]

pole shift

Perhaps if you all filed reports when you're tired, they might have difficulty 'singling' out individuals. That's what dubaigong's recommending.

Man up sunshine, these are peoples lives you're dealing with. If you haven't got the basic common sense to file an ASR when one's required, get a job in the galley brewing coffee.

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean everyone's out to get you.

Harry

[rdr]

When you have fatigue, imbalanced rostering, or, favouritism in an operation, its called mismanagement.
The same people who call for others to file reports, are generally the cowards who don't. Or who are in a position to be unaffected by the circumstances.
You are damned right not to send in reports if it may mean that you may be singled out for repercussion. There are lots of jobs around nowadays for experienced drivers. Its the level of pain you are willing to endure in this part of the world.

[pole shift]

@rdr
Spot on!

[LostinT2DXB]

Favoritism was when people would buy rosters from the boys in the rostering department. Those who refused to participate in the bidding were given worse roster than what the "poor" junior guys are getting now. Following strict seniority in awarding flights per a pilots bid request is not showing favoritism, but actually following a transparent protocol. If you don't like what your seniority holds, please quit and join another airline. Oh wait, I imagine that would not improve your seniority either :}

[dubaigong]

Pole shift

Before you talk , make sure you know what you are talking about.
First , I am not protecting my privileges as I don't have any , in the last 2 months I didn't get ANY of my requested flights.
If you don't believe me we can PM each other exchange real names and meet at FZ if you want.
Second , Harry the cod has understood what I was trying to say.
Third , about the pilots who have failed the command upgrade for stupid reasons , I will be clear about that one.
You are most probably making this comment based on what the guy who has failed told you BUT for at least 2 cases I know the exact details and reasons why these 2 guys failed and it was the right decision in both cases.
You seem to forget that this is not a computer game , when these guys are released on the left seat the instructor must be sure that he will put his family on the plane with this pilot in the front...
Most of our line check are done to easy destination like DOH , BAH , DMM , KWI etc...
But next day this guy will be sent to Kabul , Sanaa Addis Ababa etc... with some very low experience first officer coming from the ATR or the Q400.
Before releasing a command upgrade it is better to think twice there is not reset button like in the simulator.

[harry the cod]

I know a little about the culture within FZ as I've several friends working there. Both are Captains, one male, one female. One from the UK, the other US. At no time have either of them stated that they'd not file an ASR over an actual or potential safety event. One has previously submitted a report regarding a series of night turns.

When I read a post such as rdr's, it smacks of management trolls putting the fear of god into those reading these threads. I'm not saying you should be writing up every flight but you have a professional and moral obligation to submit such reports when appropriate, regardless of what part of the World you work in or what part of the World you come from. I suspect that those not reporting are likely to have cultural biases against confronting hierarchy. They are also more likely to come from backgrounds where this job is as good as it's going to get.

If there are lots of jobs around as you state, rdr, what have you got to lose, other than you own life and that of 170 others perhaps? Remember Air India Express 812 into Mangalore?

Harry

[dubaigong]

Spot on Harry , could not have said it better :ok:

I am one of those who has made report about it and even went to speak directly with the top management and I have not been deported neither had my visa revoked as suggested by some people.
The point is that you have to do it properly , based on fact and not feelings and stay professional when you do it.

The biggest problem is this jealousy feeling all the time between the so called privileged and the others , the A , B , C , D pay scales , the British against the American or against the Brazilian etc...
Those are just pretexts for some to show their frustration of their inability to act as adult to sort out their problems.