Let's stop risking our lives

[g109]

Good day,

In light of the shooting down of Mh17 over the Eastern Ukraine, and the fact that emirates used to fly exactly the same route, and even operated flights into kiew, in spite of all the known threats:

LETS STOP RISKING OUR LIVES FOR SOME PAX AND COMANY AND LETS REFUSE TO FLY TO WARZONE DESTINATIONS

I will from now on refuse flights and call sick if I see any of these destinations on my roster:

Kiev (discontinued in EK)
Kabul
Peshawar (discontinued in Ek )
Karachi
Baghdad
Arbil

This equally applies to flydubai , ethihad, air Arabia pilots.

The airlines are taking calculated risks operating to these places, they can but without me from now on!!!!!!!

[dubaigong]

g109

Stand for your idea and tell your company and your fellow pilots that you refuse to fly to those destinations but don't call sick as this will force somebody who is on standby to fly instead of you and for me this is not fair to say the least.
That's what is happening in my company with some pilots , they call sick and then somebody else has to stand up or fly there , this is lowness...

[what_goes_up]

Dude. Life gets risky with birth and only gets worse every morning you get up...

[highflyer40]

you might as well add some more.

Cairo
tel aviv
Nairobi
too name just a few. if you stop flying everywhere there is strife you will have a lot of days off!!

[LHR Rain]

Emirates had countless aircraft flying through that area.
Some of the media reports are slamming Malaysian for flying through the war zone. There was/is a restricted area up to FL320 and Malaysian was flying at FL330. Obviously not good enough.
Pilots have to ask why middle eastern airlines are dispatching their planes through these war zones. At the very very least it is bad PR and leaves a lot to be answered for.

[Al Murdoch]

If you want to avoid danger, don't take the car to work in the morning. It's the single most dangerous aspect of your day in the Middle East.

[yoyonow]

g109

As you appear to be on the 380 it doesn't look like you will have to make much of a personal stance!! But thanks for the thought!

[harry the cod]

They say the first few minutes of your life are in fact the most dangerous. Well I reckon the last few are pretty dodgy too. :uhoh:

LHR Rain

I thought we stopped flying over that area since March? All the European trips I did since then were well away from Ukraine airspace.

Harry

[fliion]

Harry

Flew over it twice recently, exact route - prompting surprise from both of us...good news on the way back is we flew over Iraq :0

f.

[cerbus]

I flew over the exact area w Emirates 3 times in the last two weeks.
Look at the flight plans Harry.

[White Knight]

I thought we stopped flying over that area since March? All the European trips I did since then were well away from Ukraine airspace.


It was only Semferapol (don't know how to spell that...) FIR that we were not flying over!

[Shaky Hands]

Flying to Northern Europe last week from DXB over Bagdad there was some sort of military drone flying large circles above us at about FL400-450. It's getting a bit tetchy going to or over these places. MH17 could have been any of us, it seems all the bad luck is with Malaysian right now. Sickening.

[Dirigible]

On the return from US (on an EK flight) a couple of weeks ago, I came back from my rest to notice our track was right over the eastern part of Ukraine. I stated that as far as I knew this was a war zone, to which my colleagues blasé response was "Nah, it's only Simferopol FIR where the trouble is".

[Christmas Beetle]

It would seem that the "Gadfly" is the new AK47. Not good news for airline Pilots

[Al Murdoch]

Air India, Lufthansa, Singapore, to name a few - all been flying over that part of the Ukraine until yesterday.

[upwhereIbelong]

We flew today back from DME.we had quite a diversion eastwards while others EK etc where still flying closer to this borders.
Were all in the same Boat and hopefully this is and was the last one in civil Aviation.nevertheless our crew notices said "Ukrainian Airspace closed till further notice"
Stay Safe Guys and Gal's

UP

[fliion]

But Qantas, Cathay, BA, Air Berlin, China Airlines, KAL, Asiana and all US airlines did not for the last few months...due security concerns.

Was it worth the risk to continue?

Ask the relatives of the 300 dead.

Not good enough EK.

f.

[ruserious]

Flew over this exact route a few hours earlier than the Malaysian aircraft, makes you think!

[halas]

As pointed out in another thread, what if an aircraft had a rapid depressurisation or to a lesser extent an engine out in that airspace. They most certainly would have gone below the 32,000 level.

Makes me think about our hundreds of weekly overflights of Iraq, let alone the flights that are still operating into there.

halas

[Landflap]

Any real Commanders out there ? Rather than strike or go sick, or refuse a rostered duty, when a notam says that a particular bit of airspace should be avoided, don't you just ......................avoid............?

I posted on the MH thread my witnessing a really good Commander who faced this problem decades ago and requested a new flightplan avoiding a notam'd "avoid" area. This would then have made the mission impossible to complete in one sector. Result would have been three sectors, ( Base to Base)crew hours problems etc etc. Chief Pilot then tried to pressurise the Captain who maintained that everyone was avoiding the area and he would too. The latter was replaced by a more sycophantic "Captain" but my hero was red-flagged and resigned a few months later. He went on to enjoy decades of highly professional and worthy leadership to which, I , for one, aspire to.

I do feel that the industry has dumbed down (don't even get me started on Pay 2 fly ) but even the CRM pundits who insist on decision by committee and the final bullying by weak flight managers who suck up to the bean counters has led to the weakness in Commanders awareness of regulatory responsibility.

Captains : all the stuff is put on a plate to ASSIST you in making the appropriate Command decisions. some of it seductive, but, it is YOU who make the decisions because it is YOU who will be held, finally, responsible for the safe conduct of your flight. As they say in La belle France..........................................Jurst say NON !

[Xulu]

Yes in theory you may be the commander. But try pulling that stunt a few times and see how long you last in an 'expat' airline.

That's the problem.

[pilotday]

Exactly Xulu, expat airlines are non-union, every time you use command authority you risk losing your job.

Emirates loves hiring pilots that view EK as their last stop. Good little soldiers/slaves. An ideal candidate in the interview pool is one who can't get a job in their home country whether that be to economic reasons or other.

Landflap, the only "real Commanders" you see at most expat airlines are the ones that have nothing to lose. ie. Enough money in the bank to retire, back up plans, or just a F!ck the System mentality.

[g109]

I agree, there are no real commanders out here, most people just want to cover their arse, are **** scared of the company and do everything to please.
Company: jump!
Pilot : how high?

[Chocks Away]

The overfly min altitude was assuming hand-held rocket launchers couldn't reach that height... now we're dealing with top grade medium range missiles launched off special vehicles (thanks to the Russians) so the issue here is why wasn't this big change in threat/capability red flagged worldwide... especially given the 3 aircraft taken down by such missiles in the preceding weeks?

The flight planning through such volatile zones is opening up the airlines to huge legal issues.
It's called "constructive knowledge" and "affordable safety", in that the flight planning departments SHOULD (professionally speaking) be well aware of such conflict zones and plan away from them. Many are not and are chasing the dollar savings in planning shorter routes and as such, are testing out how far they can afford to risk, before safety is compromised.

What's really bothering me is this rise in power of these blinkered bean counters, pressuring flight planning to go through such conflict zones, ash clouds (Chinese) etc.

LMC : Just to add a little further, some late mail: Route Eurocontrol approved (http://atwonline.com/safety/obama-missile-shot-down-mh17-malaysia-airlines-says-eurocontrol-approved-route).

[Swansafa]

overfly min altitude was assuming hand-held rocket launchers couldn't reach that height

I'm less worried about bazookas than I am about some of the products of the amazing training system these days.

Himalayas, anyone... some of the stuff in the ASRs these days beggars belief. Just imagine the ones they knock back?!?

[nolimitholdem]

Personally I don't care. But then, I don't have a healthy fear of death. I can see why it might bother others.

[PGA]

Emirates wil luchtvaartconferentie na ramp | nu.nl/economie | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl (http://www.nu.nl/economie/3832987/emirates-wil-luchtvaartconferentie-ramp.html)

From google translate:

Emirates wants aviation conference after disaster
CEO Tim Clark of Emirates airline on Sunday called for an international conference of airlines. He did this in response to the shooting down of a unit of Malaysia Airlines over eastern Ukraine.
Emirates wants aviation conference after disaster

According to him, there should be given on how airlines should deal with international conflicts urgently.
'' The international aviation community should indicate that this is ridiculous and unacceptable and that we refuse to be drawn into regional conflicts where the airline has nothing to do with it,'' said Clark about the Boeing Malaysia Airlines which in all probability was shot.

'' Until three days ago, we could handle this. Now I think that new protocols are needed to deal with this.''
safe routes
The International Air Transport Association IATA according to Clark, together with the UN aviation organization ICAO take the lead and decide which routes are safe. Now decide the companies themselves, or they fly over an area where a war.

Thus, the Qantas Australian society for the crash Thursday already decided not to fly over eastern Ukraine, while other companies that took decision only after the accident.
Emirates is in the number of passengers the world's largest airline.



My personal interpretation of this is that our management realise we fly over areas, like northern Iraq, where exactly the same could happen. However if things go wrong they don't want to take the blame for sending planes over a particular area, but instead want to point the finger at ICAO and blame them for claiming it was safe. Thereby avoiding comments, like those made in the press recently, that MH wasn't avoiding the Ukraine, and therefore some element of blame could be appointed to them, as opposed to other airlines which have avoided the Ukraine for some months already.

[Desert Dawg]

Halas,

The Buk missile system has two variants. The older variant is good up to FL500 with a reliable radius of 30km. The newer version is good up to FL750 with a reliable radius of 30km.

No commercial airliner is safe from such threats.

As Chocks said, it's time flight planning departments realise this and plan accordingly. In my book, avoid any potential war zones that have such SAM capabilities.

But alas, it is easier said than done I'm sure.... Doh..!!!

[Airmann]

PGA your right reading those comments made me sick. Who exactly forced any of those airlines to fly over Ukraine? Others had already stopped. But the greedy and lazys just kept going the same direction. They always have and always will.

[The Turtle]

I'm afraid there is always a pivotal event in world history where when discussed in hindsight we say "how did we not see this coming"


hindsight always 20/20

[glofish]

As long as most ME carriers adopt the reactive action as opposed to the proactive way, letters like the one from TC sound hollow, to remain politically correct.

I know of a captain exercising his authority and demanded a reroute to fly around a taifun just to be called in for tea and biscuits and being told by the CP that next time he does that, the latter will burry him alive in the desert.

By the way: Dispatch asked "Why? You fly over a taifun, don't you?"!!!!
This to illustrate the threat mitigation attitude or skill of the people in charge.

[bogeydope]

In regards to TC's letter, I guess we can expect to stop flying the freighter to Kano.......????!!

[Shaky Hands]

He didn't mention Basra either.

[pilotday]

When a cargo plane crashes, it won't even make the news, maybe some small text on the ticker on the bottom of the screen.

Only time a freighter crash makes the news is if it kills people on the ground or is caught on tape and goes viral.

Urban legend has it that a few UPS pilots sitting in recurrent ground school first learned of the UPS 747 that crashed in Dubai, months after the fact. Apparently the guys were too old to check e-mail.

[cockney steve]

@ chocks away said so the issue here is why wasn't this big change in threat/capability red flagged worldwide... especially given the 3 aircraft taken down by such missiles in the preceding weeks?

So, Chocks, what you're really saying, is that the Airlines all employ thick, braindead, infantile cretins and it's the regulatory authorities' responsibility to sit them all down and say, "Now, Children, Nasty men are squabbling and fighting and so you must not let your toys fly anywhere near them. "


WTF? these people are in charge of directing multi-billion pound assets
It's gross incompetence,dereliction of duty and reckless endangerment to send any Civil Transport through a war-zone WITHOUT HAVING WARNED THE PASSENGERS OF THE RISKS Goes without saying a full refund to any pax refusing the flight.

These people should be dragged into Court and punished.....Pour encourager les autres.

RE- calling in sick.....that's a lame wimp-out. If there was some Pilot solidarity and allPilots refused to take a dangerous route, management would stop planning them....also. they'd want to cover their own arssss re- duty of care to Pax.

Malaysian was unlucky , tough cheese, they deserve to be bankrupted by the compensation claims.

[highflyer40]

that's a load of tosh.. at any given time half the bloody world is in dispute with the other half, who's to decide what's safe and what isn't. you would have some routes that would need refuelling stops because you've triple the distance flying around 4/5 hot spots, and some routes that would be impossible due you no friendly countries to overfly!!

you get in a nasty war of words with Russia and how the hel l you get from Europe to Asia?? no Siberia, no "stans" no Ukraine, might as well write of the eastern med, no bloody Africa. I guess we could always fly west via the US and triple the time....

[afootsoldier]

Highflyer, gross exaggeration there. And in any case you're using the same flawed logic that has got most airlines into this position - 'lets do this flight, through this airspace, to this place and make our risk assessment say its ok'


'' Until three days ago, we could handle this. Now I think that new protocols are needed to deal with this.''

No, nothing was being handled, its just that the luck had not run out yet..

The people who should lead this debate should be the FAA and the airlines who's safety departments re-routed their aircraft away from Ukraine - after all, their judgement was better than the rest of the industry, clearly

[Dirigible]

Why are EK/EY/QR still flying over Iraq, prohibited by the FAA?

Map: The FAA Tells Airlines to Avoid Flying Over These Countries | New Republic (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118764/map-faa-tells-airlines-avoid-flying-over-these-countries)

[highflyer40]

umm because they aren't American? why would you think non US carriers would be listening to the FAA in regards to international routes outside of the US?

[Dirigible]

umm Tell that to the Malaysians. If they had followed the US initiative this tragedy would have been avoided. If the US carriers are in any doubt as to safety, then we should be just as anxious. Look the other way & suffer the consequences. I'm not happy with the non-accountability of Kurdish, Syrian & ISIS weapons that proliferate in this area. If in any doubt as to the capability of their weapons, then surely common sense says best to avoid. I travelled KLM a few nights ago, and we routed over Iran, adding 20 minutes to the journey to Dubai.

[Captain Charisma]

If you read the article properly you will see that there is no restriction on flights above 20000ft over Iraq. Read before you stir!!!

[Dirigible]

I did read the full article, so get off your high horse. The Malaysian plane was flying above the restricted airspace too. Missiles have been shown to penetrate up to 50,000 '. What about driftdown, depressurization, or flying into Erbil, Basra, Baghdad. Perhaps you just want to look the other way. :ugh:

[Captain Charisma]

Obviously you didn't read the article correctly.
The FAA have not prohibited flights over Iraq - they are permitted with altitude restriction. Perhaps that is based on the type of SAMs that are in the region. Many other carriers, including some American ones, fly through Iraq everyday, so obviously the level restriction is relevant.
Also don't get uppity with me when I point out what the actual article says.:ok:

[Aluminium shuffler]

So, highflyer, carry on pretending there's no threat in any of the places you fly, huh? Carry on keeping your head down and the bosses happy, fella.

[Oceanic]

New missile threat raises fears for airline passengers | The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4158459.ece)

This story running in a separate thread.


Subsequent to my post I note that Emirates have taken the initiative to stop all Iraq overflights.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/transport/article4159432.ece

[Chocks Away]

Yes Oceanic but it seems that Qantas think they know better (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/07/28/qantas-to-fly-where-emirates-fears-to-go-but-for-how-long/).

My earlier post alludes to a major concern evident in many carriers run primarily on "affordable safety", as does this link below, for the benefit of Cockney Steve also:

"(MAS's) apparent ignorance of everyday operational consideration of safety planning is breathtaking." (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2014/07/28/mh17-admissions-of-safety-failure-by-malaysia-airlines/)

I don't have immediate answers but just hope we learn from past areas of dereliction and prevent from happening again.
One thing we do know is that these guided missiles capable of >60,000+ feet are now out there... and in the hands of wallies, who knows.

Happy landings:ok:

[neila83]

While some posters have named various supposedly more reputable airlines to claim that EK et al in the ME were deliberately recklessly endangering your lives because they are penny pinchers...do you include LH, KLM, AF in the same category? SQ?

Plenty of first class airlines who's safety culture no-one would doubt were flying those routes, (ok some may not include AF in that category...) so it's not just a ME thing. If LH and KLM thought it was good to me, that suggests to me the level of risk wasn't well known rather than reckless negligence.

I'm not saying that means it's OK, just the way it's being used to bash these airlines by suggesting only shoddy operators who don't value safety properly were doing this.

[ItsMeFromEarth]

It is riskier to drive in the ME than to fly over Irak :eek:





"(MAS's) apparent ignorance of everyday operational consideration of safety planning is breathtaking." (http://apicdn.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fmiddle-east%2F543825-lets-stop-risking-our-lives-3.html&out=http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.crikey.com.au%2Fplanetalking%2F2014%2 F07%2F28%2Fmh17-admissions-of-safety-failure-by-malaysia-airlines%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewrep ly%26amp%3Bnoquote%3D1%26amp%3Bp%3D8587372)



They have a fix

They are changing the company name

[Innominate11]

Do EK flights DXB-DAR and vice versa track over Somalian airspace? Surely this isn't that safe either?

[Vortex Thing]

Are their double digit SAMs in working order in Somalia?

[nolimitholdem]

So Sir Tim (y'know, some names just don't lend themselves to knighthood, "Sir Tim" brings to mind a Monty Python character galloping around on a broomstick horse), Sir Tim says no more Iraq flights.

No More Iraq Overflights says Clark - 28 July 2014 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28524628)

But errmm still business as usual with all the European flights routing merrily through Iraq as of today, five days later.

Always, with the lies. Hopefully the pax are blissed-out on their free booze and not watching the ICE map.

Perhaps no one told the dispatchers? :ugh: