Out of date GPS

[tomboo]

So, why is it, every plane I have ever hired with a GPS is out of date? Maybe I have hired 6 different planes with various Garmin or Avidyne things and all of them have been out of date. Why? too expensive?

[obgraham]

When I had mine it was $700 a year to keep GPS database legally current, say for IFR operations.

[tomboo]

That would be why then!!

[sharpend]

An out of date GPS can be dangerous. If you hire an aeroplane that is advertised as having a GPS, then it must be in date.

[obgraham]

Can't speak for UK, but in US you are only required to have a current database if you are flying IFR and using the GPS to do it. Updates are on a 28 day schedule but you don't have to buy all of them.

[Genghis the Engineer]

An out of date GPS can be dangerous. If you hire an aeroplane that is advertised as having a GPS, then it must be in date.

Really, gosh.

And there was me thinking that it was perfectly reasonable to use the GPS as backup for my up to date paper chart and old fashioned navigation technique. And that even if the airspace moves, in my experience a GPS will still tell me where I am, which way I'm going, how fast, and where the airfields are.

G

[John R81]

Genghis - it's absolutely reasonable to demand stringent standards for something that cannot be your primary navigation system.

The 2x GPS in my cab are both running out of date maps. Similar position in my earlier 2 rides. By about 4 updates on average. Not actually found a problem yet. However, one day when they re-route the heli lanes or move EGKR 35 miles South of current location I will definitely need to update

[Gertrude the Wombat]

And there was me thinking that it was perfectly reasonable to use the GPS as backup for my up to date paper chart and old fashioned navigation technique. And that even if the airspace moves, in my experience a GPS will still tell me where I am, which way I'm going, how fast, and where the airfields are.
Well quite.

It's different of course if you're renting a plane in order to navigate in IMC using GPS ... in which case you make sure you know what you're buying, and you quite probably get what you pay for. And the same fleet may have some of each, which is fine so long as you know which is which when booking.

[Maoraigh1]

Both Garmins in all of the C172s I've hired in Colorado had in-date data. In the UK I've never had in-date Garmin data in the few aircraft I've hired. And the oldest Colorado aircraft was less than 10 years old. And fewer $/hour than £/hour in the UK. And no landing charges.

[Mach E Avelli]

I don't know if this is a Garmin thing, but almost to the day that my 296 reached 10 years old, it stopped receiving satellites.
As I only used it in my own home built aircraft as a VFR backup, I had never bothered with the hassle of updating it.
Problem was, it fell over the very day I was rather hoping it would be a help on a Bass Strait crossing from mainland Australia to Tasmania in some barely VFR weather.
Certainly if you are hiring an aircraft, it would be reasonable to require all equipment to be 'in date'. In some jurisdictions that is also a legal requirement when the aircraft is available for hire, unless said aircraft has a MEL specifically allowing otherwise.

[RTN11]

Don't think it's a Garmin thing, I've got a date Garmin 92 which is over 20 years old and still works just fine. The map is around 10 years out of date, but they haven't moved the airfields to the direct to function still gives very useful data, and a chart gives airspace info.

[mixture]

All these children of the magenta line panicking about being unable to rely on their beloved GPS units... :E

[BEagle]

Having had 2 data cards stolen from GPS units in our club's aircraft, as CFI I resolved not to waste any more money on buying new ones. But these weren't moving map GPS units (GPS 150 and GNC 250), so provided that the correct lat/long or aerodrome names had been entered in the route, the display showed DTK, TRK, GS and ETA - with the CDI bar showing cross-track error. Perfectly adequate for PPL flying, in my view.

Airspace avoidance was achieved by pre-flight planning on a current chart.

But a moving map unit, if it displays airspace, really should be kept up-to-date. Particularly in the impatient 'get in and go' current way many people fly these days.

[Fitter2]

What constitutes 'up to date'?

The Jepp database is updated on a 30 day cycle. Is a database 31 days old (previous cycle) out of date if used for VFR flying, when the AIP has not notified any airspace changes?

The Jepp database does not incude TRAs, so you still need to use other data from the relevant NOTAMs.

Most UK VFR pilots I know update annually, on the next cycle after the half-mill map change, and use NOTAMs and preflight planning to remain legal.

[Mike Cross]

An out of date GPS can be dangerous.

Oh dear! Now you have me worried. I have an old Magellan somewhere. Should I call the bomb disposal people?

I used to have a Decca Navigator too, luckily I got rid of that long ago.

[Heston]

If you are worried that the out of date GPS may mislead you in some way then I suggest you turn it off...

[PA28181]

Does being out of date stop it's navigational ability to fly the route as programmed. I used my old Garmin 90 for years without an update because the "Nav" page still did what it said on the tin IE:- Heading, X-Track error , speed, eta etc,

Never realised how dangerous it all was, I am perfectly safe now my Aera 500 has had it's yearly update last May

[sharpend]

My point about an out of date sat nav being dangerous is that if one relies on it (as many do) you can run into big trouble. But of course one should reference your navigation to an up-to-date map. Correct me if I am wrong but it is a legal mandatory requirement to carry one.

My main point, however is that if you hire something you enter in to a contract with the owner who has a duty to supply what he states you are getting.
If he informs you that the sat nav is out of date, that is ok.

However, many of us do not update our Sat Navs every month as that is not cost effective for single owners. But then we are aware that errors may be inherent.

[PA28181]

I may be wrong, but I believe so long as what your choice of chart is, it doesn't matter if it's paper, or digital etc so long as it is current.

[jez d]

Can anyone point me to a piece of legislation that defines what is acceptable for use as a primary VFR navigation chart, and whether electronic is acceptable in place of paper ?

As Jeppesen have discontinued their European VFR paper charts it is becoming increasingly difficult to acquire paper versions for certain EU countries.

Thanks

[Heston]

In the UK the Air Navigation Order definitely does not specify what is acceptable or not in terms of VFR navigation. I can't remember the exact wording and cba to look it up but its something like, "shall carry maps, charts and codes suitable for the intended flight and any anticipated diversion".


It definitely does not say, for example, that carrying the latest half mil chart is a requirement.


The point being that as PIC you are responsible for deciding how you will navigate, stay safe and not infringe CAS. When you bust somebody's control zone that isn't on your chart it is not a defence to say, "But your Honour, I was using the latest official chart and it isn't marked".


Any chart or gps update is out of date as soon as it is issued. You have to check official sources like AIS for updates. So for your chart to be up to date it will have loads of pencil marks showing the changes that you have made to it. how you do that on a gps moving map between updates I don't know.

[PA28181]

Duties of commander
Pre-flight action by commander of aircraft other than EU-OPS aeroplanes
86.
—(1) This article applies to the commander of any aircraft except for the commander of an
EU-OPS aeroplane intending to commence a commercial air transport flight.
(2)
A commander must, before taking off on a private f
light, an aerial work flight or a public
transport flight, take all reasonable steps so as to
be satisfied of the matters specified in paragraph
(3).
(3)
The matters referred to in paragraph (2) are that—
(a)
the flight can safely be made, taking into account
the latest information available as to the
route and aerodrome to be used, the weather reports and forecasts available and any
alternative course of action which can be adopted in
case the flight cannot be completed
as planned;

Thats as close as have found but as I have a life I'm not ploughing through the ANO all the way.

[jez d]

Thanks both.

[mixture]

My main point, however is that if you hire something you enter in to a contract with the owner who has a duty to supply what he states you are getting.
If he informs you that the sat nav is out of date, that is ok.

Erm no.

If you enter into a contract to hire something that is simply described as "an aircraft with a GPS" .... and you are duly supplied with "an aircraft" and "a GPS" then the owner has fulfilled their duty.

Much like if I sold you "an iPhone" on eBay and it turned up INOP. I never stated in the description whether it was functional or not, and you never asked... thus its your loss.

Do not read any more into a contract than is explicitly stated, because more than likely the only person that will end up with a red face is you.

Also, from an aviation point of view.... you as the PIC have the ultimate responsibility. So its up to you to RTFM and check for yourself the GPS is up to date..... much in the same way you check the fuel levels in your tanks.

[Prop swinger]

The requirement to carry a chart is in NCO.GEN.135(a)(10):current and suitable aeronautical charts for the route of the proposed flight and all routes along which it is reasonable to expect that the flight may be diverted;Electronic versions are explicitly allowed in the Guidance Material in the AMC to Part-NCO:GM1 NCO.GEN.135 Documents, manuals and information to be carried
GENERAL
. . .
(b) The documents, manuals and information may be available in a form other than on printed paper. An electronic storage medium is acceptable if accessibility, usability and reliability can be assured.

[flybymike]

It has been determined after endless discussion on Internet forums (and therefore must be correct) that electronic charts are acceptable.

[wb9999]

Much like if I sold you "an iPhone" on eBay and it turned up INOP. I never stated in the description whether it was functional or not, and you never asked... thus its your loss.

Not quite. The Sale of Goods Act 1979 Section 14 requires that products are fit for the purpose. An iPhone Must be able to make calls.

[PA28181]

Does the sale of goods Act cover private sales?

[wb9999]

No, for business sellers only. But the Consumer Contracts Regulations apply to both. You can return any item within 14 days of receiving the item.

[sharpend]

I don't agree Mixture. True, if you hire , borrow or purchase something from a private person or mate and it is not as advertised, tough. Though you do have redress.

If you hire a car for example from a commercial organisation and the engine does not work I think you have a case! Same with a commercial flying club. It is their duty in law to supply 'goods suitable for purpose'. You have a case if they are not!

[BEagle]

Ah well, Blunty old bean, when a colleague and I hired a car at Toronto airport, we were offered a Garmin SatNav if we wanted it. So my colleague agreed; when we set off I checked the map date and it was at least a year out of date....:(

Similarly with an aircraft GPS. If you want to be 100% certain, use your own portable device - which is what I now do when hiring a car in Das Reich as my good old nüvi 660 has up-to-date mapping!

[dubbleyew eight]

dont laugh. I used a garmin 2 plus and found it gave me exactly what I needed for my cross country navs.
no map database so nothing to go out of date.
however it used to track about a dozen satellites all the time.
I noticed recently that it was only ever tracking about six satellites.

I looked around at the offerings and the cost of the map databases that I don't use were all too high.

eventually I purchased a garmin etrex10 for about $99 new.
this wasn't what I wanted but the screens could be reconfigured.
I now have almost the same functionality as my old garmin 2 plus in the screen I use.
what I also got in the upgrade was 2 aa battery operation, configs stored internally on a micro SD card and thus no system battery flat so all wiped as before.
but more importantly I got the tracking of a full constellation of satellites back.

in these old out of date gps units how many satellites are being tracked?

[mixture]

Same with a commercial flying club. It is their duty in law to supply 'goods suitable for purpose'. You have a case if they are not!

One could argue that by supplying you a GPS that "works" they've fulfilled any duty you may feel they have to you.

The fact the GPS data is out of date puts you in no different a position as if you turned up at the airfield with a paper map you bought a few months back. Its still ultimately your responsibility as PIC to ensure that any temporary or permanent airspace changes along the route you plan to fly have been taken into account when using whatever navigation tool you plan to use. Given that the flying club will have no idea what route you'll be flying, 'suitable for purpose' is irrelevant at that level of detail.

[dublinpilot]

The answer is simple. If you want an aircraft with up to date GPS then be prepared to pay more for it. Most people either aren't prepared to pay, or buy their own GPS unit so don't care about the built in one.

[Heston]

Or don't worry one way or the other because they are not dependent on the gps for navigation.


Just saying... :)

[sharpend]

Well actually I do still recall nearly 50 years ago flying from A to B in the UK with just a P11 compass and an out of date map. The weather was awful. Just as well as I flew right over a large civil airport at some 500 feet (just below the cloud). No one saw me :)

Now in need a GPS.. What a hypocrite I am!

[flydive1]

An out of date GPS can be dangerous.

Do they print new paper maps every 30 days?
If yes, do you buy one every 30 days?

If not, a 6 month paper map is ok, but a 31 days old GPS db will kill you?

[sharpend]

Flydrive 1. When you check NOTAMS you are supposed to check the map updates... every time! No way can you check GPS updates without an update !

& I never said an out of date GPD database will kill you. But it might cause you problems.

[Mach E Avelli]

In Australia we have a regulatory regime which is very punitive. CASA turn up at fly-ins and air shows and make a big issue of ramp checks. Humble VFR single engine aircraft, including homebuilts, are targeted.
Woe betide any unfortunate pilot caught using any navigation data or charts that are out of date.
It is now so bad that many of us no longer attend these events.
I am not a child of the magenta line but I do believe that if you are going to use GPS it is a good idea to also have a position-enabled iPad with a suitable navigation program. My iPad maps are always updated, because the subscription covers it and the update process is easy. I don't find Garmin so user friendly to update and it costs more, so that has now become my secondary means of navigation. If CASA come looking the Garmin will go in my back pocket and I will trot out a paper WAC.
Flying with no autopilot and trying to pick your way through terrain with just a paper chart is a mandatory skill to learn for the day when the electronics let you down, and in clear weather I still map read for practice.
But when the weather is marginal VFR, map reading is nowhere near as safe as using good electronic methods, allowing the pilot to concentrate on flight control and look out.
So, if you are hiring, at least one of your navigation goodies needs to be up to date if only because they build nasty things like power lines which may not be on those old paper charts.

[mixture]

Humble VFR single engine aircraft, including homebuilts, are targeted.
Woe betide any unfortunate pilot caught using any navigation data or charts that are out of date.

Do us a favour mate and put away your violin... :ugh:

What "humble VFR single engine aircraft" nonsense !

You are sharing that airspace with other users as well as overflying an ever changing landscape.

I don't care how "humble" the bugsquashing brigade think their spamcans are .... there is no option in having up to date navigational data ... its a MUST. If you can't afford to keep your navs up to date, you can't afford to fly.

PICs failing to have up to date navigational data are putting others at risk as well as themselves.

Sounds like CASA is doing a great job of saving Australia from those who think otherwise !

[ChickenHouse]

Two things:
- flying VFR, GPS is a secondary navigational aid, not a primary and usually you update databases one time a year at ARC maintenance,
- flying IFR you have to follow the 28 days update cycle.

So, if you rent an IFR certified plane for IFR RNAV flights, the database should be current, if you rent a VFR plane, be lucky for a moving map database less than 12 month old. If you feel it as too old at a VFR flight, you have to read GPS position and look at the paper chart ...

[flybymike]

I suggest that one is far less likely to get lost or infringe by using GPS as a primary navigation aid.
Resorting to heading , time, wind drift and visual waypoint calculations is an interesting curiosity exercise in this day and age.

[Mach E Avelli]

Oh dear, Mixture, seems use of the word 'humble' in context of bugsmashers pressed the wrong button, hey? Or are you merely comprehension-challenged, or maybe like TV news editors, you seize on a statement and highlight the part of this that suits your purpose to the exclusion of the full statement?. Where is the violin? In my posts I have firmly advocated having at least ONE current navigation data base. When I fly my homebuilt, I avoid controlled airspace like the pox, so don't accuse me of putting other airspace users at risk. That is why I like the iPad Mini - on my knee I have access to all the IFR and VFR charts for half the world. AND they are current.
The problem I have with CASA is that they will savage a VFR pilot if ANY document or data base found in the aircraft is out of date. So if my WAC was found to have been superseded last month they could prosecute me.
Like distress flares on a boat, just because they expired recently does not mean that they would not be functional for another year or so. But use to get out of danger and only when the 'legal' ones have either failed or been consumed.
IFR is an entirely different matter - all superseded stuff gets thrown overboard or deleted during the monthly update cycle as a matter of course and anyway the Company is paying for that, not me.

[lasseb]

This might have changed with the newer easa regulation but with jar and initial easa there where no requirement that a GPS database should be up to date even when flying IFR.

It is (was?) Perfectly legal to use an outdated database as long as you verified the position of the waypoints in it. That was litterally what the law text said. And you can add your own waypoints to make up for what could be missing.
Again things might have changed lately but personally I have no issue with flying ifr with an outdated GPS database. I have paper maps and plates and verify these against the GPS database.

[ChickenHouse]

Flying IFR always needed an up2date GPS database in almost all countries, now with EASA this is mandatory for all.

[lasseb]

ChickenHouse -> could you point me to the law text that says that? I have not been able to find it myself.