Atc Communication Help?

[proudpilot1]

Hi all!

I have recently started training for my ppl and have just started getting into circuits. My instructor is getting me to start doing some of the comms now. Although I read through my notes at home I've slipped up a few times in my lessons now and was wondering if anybody knows of a good communications simulator so I can get my confidence up without the cost of lessons at my aerodrome? I understand that I will be doing the rt course soon but just want a realistic programme to help me at home if there is one out there.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Thank you.

[Hyph]

You could simply get a friend to play the part of ATC for you - CAP413 and a bit of coaching from you will give them everything they need, especially if you only want to practice circuit calls for now.

Or, if you want something that will keep you on your toes, you could try Vatsim - the virtual-ATC network for flight simmers.

You can talk to real people acting as ATC and learn in a much more forgiving environment - though most people take it just as seriously as the real thing. It is very realistic.

You probably won't be too welcome if you try to do circuits at Heathrow, but at any of the regional airports the controllers are often glad of the extra work trying to squeeze you in between the airliner traffic. It's fun for them and for you.

As I type, there are no special events on but Edinburgh, East Mids, Farnborough and Manchester Towers are all manned - I'm sure you would be welcome to try circuits at any of them.

Vatsim works with Flight Simulator and X-Plane.

VATSIM United Kingdom Division (http://www.vatsim-uk.co.uk/join-us/)

[Jan Olieslagers]

Acquire some kind of VHF radio - it will be useful later - and go and listen at an aerodrome like the ones you'll be frequenting.

Much better to listen in to real life than to play around in a simulated fake universe.

[AndoniP]

I'd agree with Jan - buy a cheap airband scanner and listen to the local traffic. R/T on the ground and in the circuit isn't particularly difficult so you should pick it up in no time and know when to say it.

Your instructor should ideally run through all the necessary R/T with you on the ground before you fly. Write the calls down and keep them on your kneeboard if you're not sure (I had to write down all possible calls when transiting Luton the first time I did it), it helps. Don't get flustered, relax and aviate first.

Remember, prefixing your call with "Student G-WXYZ" will generally make sure you don't get as much hassle if you get your calls wrong.

[worldpilot]

Flying and communicating (talking he talk using aviation language) can be challenging, but don't look at it as a mystery.

Find your won way of practicing radio communications, that's all it takes to effectively engage in talking the talk using aviation language in the cockpit.

As aforementioned above in the other posts, getting a VHF device and listening to aviation communication will help; as well as engaging in flying in a virtual environment such as the VATSIM will definitely provide you insights into becoming confident in talking the talk when at the controls in the cockpit.

If you can afford it, set up a flight simulation environment at home and engage yourself flying in the VATSIM environment. You would be surprise how realistic and sophisticated the VATSIM environmnet is and how this could elevate your flying experience. Just by flying in the VATSIM environment, I'm capable of flying advanced aircrafts and flying in any airspace (controlled or non-controlled airspace).

[DeeCee]

Don't worry, we've all been there. I agree with getting a handheld radio and listen to what goes on at your own airfield. Confidence grows steadily.

The basic A/G requirements are; Who are you? Where are you? What do you want? ATC will ask if there is any further information required. You have to learn what you are expected to respond to, but if you repeat the information given you won't go far wrong. Your Instructor will often prompt you as you may already have noticed (!)

If you visit an airfield with a higher level of radio service, or even full ATC, you may be given a printed aid to assist you.

Lastly, ATC are generally a helpful bunch and will know that you are in the early stages. Make sure that you have a kneeboard and pen ready to copy info. After a while the radio becomes second nature.

Have fun!

[Piltdown Man]

Let's get back to basics: When you speak use the following crib (Thank you John Kowalski): Who you are, Where you are and What you want. The reply, will depend on the last two items. Speak slowly and clearly and if necessary, ask the other party to do the same. With very few exceptions, they'll be glad to help.

Just out of interest, what does the callsign of your local airfield end with? Is it "Information","Radio" or "Tower"?

[Heebicka]

don't worry, you are not probably the first student in your area. controllers are used to know callsigns of all trainers around including voice of all instructors. They will know you are rookie before you finish your callsing :)


Expecting you are flying from Info or Radio airport so even with AFIS you're the master anyway and they are providing just info :)


I said hundred times some nonsences or incorrect info into radio, heard hudred times other people do the same, including military pro etc.and I am sure I will do some more :) my first solo after solo circuits so away from airport with ssr play and freq. changes was full of radio mistakes including setting wrong squawk I was asked (and confirming complete different code :) and it was fine, I was just corrected after almost every word I said, feeling everyone is now aware there is moron in the air :)

[funfly]

Write them down on a card and put it on your kneepad.
Just refer to it as and when you need it.

[Hornet863]

Only way to really learn is through your flying. So many times in my training had I practiced over and over again the correct way to say things only to fluff my lines when it mattered in the air... ATC are really helpful (at least from my experience out of Southend airport).
Remember even the pros get it wrong from time to time as the standard of some of the RT from some of the commercial traffic I over hear sometimes leaves a lot to be desired....
As others have pointed out get an airband radio and listen in, if anything it makes you realise that your not that bad after all.

[Johnm]

I used to rehearse the standard dialogues in my head and I used to play both parts so I knew what I expected to hear as well as what I expected to say. Beyond that it's about getting as much practice as possible.

[Dan the weegie]

Don't be too hard on yourself for making mistakes :), the amount of guff I hear on the RT outside of the UK you're probably already 95% better than they are.

You'll learn as you practice and remember it's a human being who speaks English on the other side of the radio, if you get the phraseology wrong they will understand you. :)

[ChickenHouse]

Just my thoughts:
- forget simulator, unless it is a networked with others, they waste your lifetime
- work on your psychologic skills, blockade is in your brain only
- if you buy a handheld aviation radio, be aware you might be illegal!
- go, sit in the plane, switch radio on, listen

[proudpilot1]

Thanks very much for your advice everyone. I've been and got a scanner today. For those that wanted to know it's Tower that I contact.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

got a scanner today
Probably the best approach (that's what I did!).

You learn the local customs that way, which may not exactly match what it says in the book.

Eg, the book tells you to say where you are, but with some radar units the conversation in real life goes like this:

"xxx, G-ABCD request MATZ penetration (or Traffic Service, or whatever)"

"G-CD squawk 1234"

"1234 G-CD"

"G-CD you are identified, pass your message"

at which point they obviously know where you are so no point in spending air time telling them again.

[thing]

The one I seem to get the most is 'Squawk **** and pass message'. Which leaves you fumbling with the transponder and having that bit of a gap before you start talking. Haven't developed the skill of changing the squawk code, pressing the transmit button and talking and looking where I'm going all at the same time yet...

[dagowly]

They shouldn't be asking you to do them both at the same time, that's bad controlling on their behalf.

[thing]

Must be a lot of bad controllers about then.

[chevvron]

proudpilot1: as AndoniP said earlier, if you prefix your initial call to any ATC frequency with the word 'student' it will indicate to the controller you might be a bit 'nervous' about using RTF and any controller with any sort of conscience should then make allowance for you.

[Piltdown Man]

Tower = Real ATC, therefore your life will be more ordered. Therefore, your flow will be like this:

Who you are, where you are, what you want.

So your requests will be:

Airfield Information - Start for circuits - Taxi.

When ready for departure, say so.

Then it will be requests again:

Downwind for touch and go or full stop.

If you trim the plane you will be able to relax on the flying bit for a few seconds and do the radio. If they speak too fast, they'll slow up as soon as you ask. Throughout the detail, you may be passed traffic information, be requested to orbit or report certain positions. The latter are very simple calls like: "G-AC finals".

But as with most things to do with flying, take it easy.

PM

PS. As a PPL holder I always found radio difficult until I used "who, where, what."

[ozbeck]

Agree with the who-where-what? comment.

It all clicked for me when I understood the reason for providing the particular pieces of information.

So on initial contact with ATC it is logical and reasonable that they want to know the 3 things above (and what you are going to do next).

Similarly, when you understand that circuit calls are to let everybody else know where you are and what you are doing, you are no longer just learning meaningless phrases, but could actually figure out what information you need to be giving.

One of the things that really helped with my RT confidence was being told that if I made a mistake to not worry about saying 'Correction', followed by the proper phrase or information. It made me understand that mistakes were normal and expected, and took the pressure off by introducing a formal way of pausing and then getting it right.

I am certain that in the early learning stages, when flying, the question of what to say next uses up a large portion of the brain capacity which would be better off being used for trying to control the aircraft. So I think it is nice to get it sorted early, but remember that in the scheme of things fluffing your lines is a non event compared to flying the plane safely and knowing where you are.

Good luck.

[airpolice]

For the avoidance of doubt, on the part of the OP and any other student reading this........

So, NOT for use while the Instructor is with you.



On initial contact, student pilots who are flying solo shall use the callsign prefix ‘STUDENT’

1. Once acknowledged, it will not normally be necessary for student pilots to use the prefix in subsequent transmissions until making initial contact with other ATSUs, unless they feel they are being instructed to do something with which they are unfamiliar.


1. Although intended primarily for use by ab initio students, the prefix shall also be used in other circumstances where, for example, the holder of a valid licence is returning to flying practice after a significant absence and is undergoing renewal training involving solo flight conducted as a student under the supervision of a flight instructor.
15 November 2012

[caroberts]

Apart from CAP413, there's a GA Supplement document, which I found more useful when learning.

It can be difficult when starting on the radio, but we all were beginners once. I still cringe when I remember on my 1st or second lesson as a student asking ATC to "Say again" when he was signing off with "Squawk 7000". I couldn't hear him and didn't know what to expect, but I could hear he was very annoyed....and my instructor embarrassed.

Try to manage the workload so you're not talking when you're busy with something else, and don't be shy to say "Standby" if you're busy flying and can't process the communications at that time. I also find it easier to wait a few seconds until I'm over a landmark before calling my position, for example.

[Steve6443]

It can be difficult when starting on the radio, but we all were beginners once. I still cringe when I remember on my 1st or second lesson as a student asking ATC to "Say again" when he was signing off with "Squawk 7000". I couldn't hear him and didn't know what to expect, but I could hear he was very annoyed....and my instructor embarrassed.

Why cringe? Ok, so you didn't understand what the controller wanted when he called Squawk 7000 but who says it was due to a lack of knowledge, equally it could have been poor radio reception and asking to "say again" is better than believing you've been told one thing when another thing was meant......

[dagowly]

Thing - gash is the word I'd use. Most have no air experience at all and therefore do not appreciate workloads.

[Helicopterdriverguy]

VATSIM isn't really a great tool for practising RT, everything said must be taken with a pinch of salt. This is why it's particularly bad for learning bad habits as you must be able to recognise when phraseology is incorrect. Flight simulator and VATSIM are generally terrible for VMC flying anyway, due to VATSIMs main emphasis on IMC procedures and the lack of decent VMC scenery.

I would recommend Pilotedge though, as every controller is a real world air traffic controller. It only covers the West Coast of the US though, so useless for UK students.

Homepage - PilotEdge.net (http://www.pilotedge.net/)

[Groundbased]

I found it helped with the readback to print a template for the kneeboard. Now I just have some boxes to fill in arranged in the order which I will be given them, like this:

Date Taxiway Runway Cross Hold Circuit QNH QFE Wind


I just print a load of these on an A4 sheet and cross them out when used.

Where I train the tower are happy for you to sit in the corner for an hour or so and listen. I know you can't do this everywhere, but it helps to understand what everyone is doing.

[worrab]

'Squawk **** and pass message'

...is something that we get here. There have been a number of on-the-ground face-to-face conversations about it, but the habit persists. I know it's a peeve of one of our (very experienced) FIs.

I suspect controllers do it (hopefully a controller will be passing along here soon) when they have a fair amount of traffic, are offering a Traffic or "Basic plus" service to someone and want to identify you quickly. From my perspective (low hours pilot) it chucks a bit of a spanner in the works in that it breaks the expected flow and puts a small spike into workload.

Response Options include:
a) "Squawk ****, standby" and then pass your message when you're ready

b) provide the litany and "forget" to read back the squawk on which case the controller should ask you once again to "squawk ****"

c) Write it down, look out, set the transponder, look out/pass the message and tag the squawk onto the end.

There is a short delay in a squawk code appearing on a controller's screen so any delay you introduce is just a part of the bigger picture that LARS providers see.

[MyMeowCat]

A few suggestions that helped me are:


1) Get a handheld transceiver and listen to the frequency while beside the runway...this way when people call their downwind, get cleared for landing/take-off ect you can visually see what is happening around the circuit.


2) Get a map while listening in...around my area the controllers say things like "extend your downwind to the river", "turn left at the highway", follow the railroad tracks", ect. Knowing these landmarks seem to help. Realize also the controller has an advantage in that their radar screen shows where everyone is. The pilot is in a better position than the ground observer because he knows where is when he gets an instruction from ATC.


3) While on the ground listen to all calls but when in the air only listen to what is meant for you --- this will reduce the mental workload while flying.


Hope this helps :)

[TurningFinals]

Thing - gash is the word I'd use. Most have no air experience at all and therefore do not appreciate workloads.

It's the same at the other end you know! As someone who is very familiar with both ends of the radio, I can sympathise for both sides.

Just because you don't hear anything on frequency it doesn't mean the controller isn't maxed out too. They may have landlines to other agencies ringing, be trying to prenote another aircraft, hand over another aircraft or be working multiple frequencies at once. Asking you to do two things at once to save them time on frequency is a necessity. Remember you're not the only one they're talking to and while they are talking to you, they can't talk to anyone else, so someone somewhere is going to have to multitask!

I am a newly solo pilot so I do understand workloads at the 'sharp end' too. ATC aren't all dragons who are trying to make your life difficult.

While on the ground listen to all calls but when in the air only listen to what is meant for you --- this will reduce the mental workload while flying.

I would disagree, maintaining a listening watch will give a much better understanding of what is going on around you. You don't have to listen to every word, but knowing where another aircraft is because you have heard it may help you out if you haven't seen it.

Capacity comes with experience, you'll get it in time.

[Capt Kremmen]

Avoid controlled airspace.

If you can't avoid, rehearse dialogue in your head when driving.

[funfly]

Remember a 'readback' is just that, it's not a 'repeat what you heard' it's a readback of what you should have written down.

[Keef]

"Who are you, where are you, what do you want?" is the right advice.

On a busy frequency, you may well get a lot of information thrown at you in reply. The secret is to deal with it before replying. If I'm flying solo, I'll write down the relevant bits, then set the transponder, then reply. ATC know I'll be doing that, so they'll expect a few seconds delay.

You will learn when to expect a load of information, and as soon as you release the PTT, you'll grab your pen to write it all down. Then you read back the relevant bits of what you've written. If you've got it wrong, ATC will correct you. If you don't read it back, they'll ask you to. It's a good idea to know what must be read back! I work on "all numbers, except the wind, and clearances" which is approximately right.

[Mach Jump]

Proud.
All good advice here but it really will come with practice. Just make sure you are practicing the correct phrases.

The one I seem to get the most is 'Squawk **** and pass message'.

Thing.
Im guessing that you are talking about an airport named after a county that no loger exists, near a river estuary with a suspension bridge.

This REALLY irritates me. They are generally very GA friendly and good with inexperienced students but persist with this, even though I have, over the past decade, writen to them, emailed, and discussed it on the phone.

They dont seem to realise how this non standard response to an initial call really screws up the inexperienced who expect either 'Pass your message' or 'Standby'

To be fair, I think it's mainly just the one controller who does this, but it's spreading to the others.


MJ:ok:

[piperboy84]

Slightly off topic, I've noticed after many years of flying overseas and now almost entirely in the UK, pilots here seem to have a extremely low opinion of the ongoing operational reliability and expected service life of their COM equipment. No matter which airfield I visit I hear an incessant stream of requests for "radio checks"

[Jan Olieslagers]

"Radio check" is required in several procedures. At my homefield it is done between glider and tugplane before each take-off.

I even seem to remember that, if your initial radio check request is not answered with "reading you 4" at least, your radio is considered unusable.

[DeeCee]

Piperboy - I got it!

[alland2012]

I feel for your frustration, excellent advice here though regarding the three main points ...who you are, where you are, and what your intentions are. also pre-fixing any initial RT with the word "Student"

I fly mainly in the US, and the majority of the controllers (especially in busy airspace) come at you with rapid fire RT !

It used to get me well flustered at times, so much so I have actually had some not so nice exchanges with one or two of the more abrupt controllers who show little tolerance when asked to "say again"....I once said to one pretty obnoxious guy that if he tried speaking English I might understand what he wanted me to do !..not to be recommended I got the number of the tower to call once I had landed..and got my head chewed off..:=

Now I've learned to slow them down a little by announcing - "low time pilot" followed by the usual RT. it seems to work.

Also works on the ground at the bigger more busy airports, If I'm flying to an airport where I know that ground will have me driving all over the field to get to the GA ramp, even if I've been there before, I usually announce "unfamiliar with field, request progressive taxi please" greatly reduces workload and lets you concentrate on watching for other traffic movements around the place.

On the whole controllers on whatever continent you happen to be flying are your friend and there to help.

Good luck, your radio work will soon click into place and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. :ok:

[funfly]

I flew GA from Manchester Airport and the instructions from the GA park to the runway included a lot of "taxiway this, taxiway that, cross runway this and holding point that".

No way I could read this back so in the end I wrote down all the possible routes (only about three) and kept each one ready. As soon as I realised which route the controller was giving me I selected the page which gave me the reply together with an airport map showing me the way.

How the pilots of the large aircraft were able to make a note and response as they seemed to do always surprised me.

[alland2012]

You can't beat the car with the "Follow Me" sign on top waiting for you as you exit the runway....:ok:

[TurningFinals]

Their callsign, your callsign, message. Just get exactly what the message part is in your head before pressing tx!

[thing]

Thing.
Im guessing that you are talking about an airport named after a county that no loger exists, near a river estuary with a suspension bridge.


How did you guess?!! As you say, decent enough guys but I have a theory they think we are all mode s equipped and can just punch the code in as they read it out.

[Helicopterdriverguy]

I called said frequency the other Day, on a CAVOK day, with every bob and dog on frequency, forgetting they did that. Oh, after manically remembering how to write, did i eventually program their squawk. Next time i shall remember to tell them to standby!

[tmmorris]

Maybe I'm in danger of starting to feel I know what I'm doing... but 'Squawk XXXX and pass your message' has never bothered me. I do exactly that i.e. dial in the squawk (short pause therefore while I do so, though modern transponders do make that easier) then pass the message which, after all, I was expecting to do so I have already thought through.

I do think the 'pass your message' spiel gets a lot easier with time. It used to worry me a lot. So the message to the OP is keep at it, like everything else in flying it gets easier with time.*

*apart from landing which seems to go in waves.

[thing]

dial in the squawk (short pause therefore while I do so It's the short pause that's the problem. How many times have you been twiddling the transponder knobs and in that pause some other cheery soul comes blurting in with 'G-**** for basic service'. then you get 'Standby G-****' and on it goes. It just doesn't sound sharp either. I like to be quick and punchy on the radio, gaps to me are a sign of someone who hasn't thought about what they are going to say.

It should be 'G**** for basic service (or whatever)

'G-**** squawk 1234'

Squawk 1234 G-****'

Short pause...

'G-**** identified, pass your message.'

Far more civilised.

[Mach Jump]

...but I have a theory they think we are all mode s equipped and can just punch the code in as they read it out.

Nope. They have been doing this since well before mode S was invented. I think it's an imperfect copy of a military way of doing things similar to your last post.


MJ:ok:

[TurningFinals]

With experience comes capacity. Once you have a few hours under your belt you'll realise what you once thought were big issues are actually fairly insignificant because now they're second nature.