"it always does that!"

[Sunfish]

The Cessna 210 had five on board. My estimate was that four pax and pilot plus bags weighed about 474 kg. Not much fuel on board.

it was about 25C and no wind. Our dirt strip sloped uphill but rather than taxi to the other end, our pilot gunned it up the hill. Flaps ten. At about half way, I noted our speed as barely 40 kt. Towards the end, at about Sixty the pilot rotated and the stall warning sounded immediately and continued to sound.

We seemed to be stuck in ground effect I thought, stall warning continued. Is this how it ends? We didn't seem to be climbing. Wheels up and we barely cleared the trees.

On arrival at our city destination I asked if it was normal for the C210 stall warning to sound on take off. "It always does that" was the response.

Does it? Am I a panic merchant or did we just dodge a bullet?

[nitpicker330]

Nope doesn't sound normal to me. You should have kicked him up the arse for nearly killing you. :=

[Pinky the pilot]

Sunfish; I have bugger all 210 time but probably 300+ hrs in a 206 albeit logged over 20 years ago so you may consider my comment any way you wish, but....

Don`t ever fly with that :mad: again!!:=

Oh, go buy a lottery ticket.

[Jack Ranga]

I'm echoing Pinky Sunfish, I enjoy your posts & prefer you don't step foot in that aircraft again. You may want to warn your friends. Let this particular pilot get a Darwin Award with one POB. :ok:

[DUXNUTZ]

Having been in a take off incident in a 210 nearly ending my life by the hands of another individual I'm wary these days. If I ever end up in a single again with an unknown pilot I'm going to flat out ask what his go/no-go point on the strip is. I used to brief it if I ever flew with another pilot and think its good practice.

[sms777]

Good luck Sunny.......:ok:

[Towering Q]

Poor airmanship not to taxi to the other end and make use of the down slope.:=

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Or good airmanship if he considered stopping distance.

[BlatantLiar]

Suppose he learned his lesson and next time he will remember to sticky tape the stall warning.

[sms777]

C'mon you guys you all missed it. It is a scenario. First clue: Sunny is from Melbourne. When was the last time Melbourne had 25C temperature? About 30 years ago when they discovered El Nino. Second: It's always windy in Vic. Third: No runway lenght.
Should I go on? :}

[Feather #3]

What Pinky said!!

G'day ;)

[Arnold E]

I have only got about a 100 Hrs in a 210, but I would NEVER have considered the stall warning going of as normal. Ok maybe very late in the landing sequence.

[Aussie Bob]

Suppose he learned his lesson and next time he will remember to sticky tape the stall warning

I am with you BL, bloody electrical switches have no place on an aeroplane wing. What's your problem Sunny, you got to your destination right?

[Sunfish]

SMS, not a scenario but reality. I wasn't in Melbourne last week but won't identify the location further. Can a commercial C210 driver tell me this is normal?

Strip is about 3500ft. The manager has cut back trees for another Two hundred yards at the uphill end.

[Aussie Bob]

I can tell you in all seriousness that at or near to gross, the stall warning in 206, 207 and 210 will be on for a long time after take off from a short strip. I have seen them made inoperable by sane pilots to avoid passenger distraction. Perhaps they needed adjusting, I am just saying what I have seen and experienced.

[redsnail]

I used to occasionally fly a C210 in the Kimberley in the 90's from Kununurra (Mainly flew C206 and C207s). It was a bit warm there occasionally and no, never had the stall warning go off like that on take off.

For sure, would get the occasional chirp because of the turbulence but not go off continuously.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I've got plenty of 210 time. The stall horn going off is not necessarily a big deal - it may just be a bit ambitious. Of greater concern for me would be the poor risk management and lack of familiarity with proper operation of the aeroplane.

It would require a BIG tailwind downhill to get me to take-off up hill rather than down (has never happened!) and you leave the gear down for max short field performance in the Cessna retractable singles. One look at the gear cycling will tell you why.

I have taken a 210 at MTOW off a 600m one-way downhill strip many times at 30o+C temps!

Interestingly, it's actually better to leave the gear down to clear the trees even in Bo - which has a very quick retraction cycle.

Dr :8

PS - and you DON'T 'rotate' a 210!

[Blueskymine]

Used to be pretty normal lifting off at 60 knots on a really short strip with flap and ground effect.

However on long runway it sounds like you almost died .....

[Fred Gassit]

Hey Love Doctor, I can empathise, we had a fleet of 210s and one of them did that to me one day, clawing around a circuit with no abnormal indications is no fun at all is it.

Its been years now but I remember being able to drag 210s into the air with takeoff power and full backstick, they get airborne with no real ASI reading then you would let them accelerate in ground effect, all the high wing Cessnas will do it. I cant remember if the stall horn was going off then, I guess it must have. In any event I don't think you used less runway, it just got u off the ground quickly.

[Checkboard]

If I ever end up in a single again with an unknown pilot I'm going to flat out ask what his go/no-go point on the strip is.
Just ask how much you weigh. If the pilot hasn't weighed you, or asked how much you (and everyone else) weighs - then they are guessing. Yes - a GA strip with two on board you can guess and be pretty sure you are right.

But a limiting strip? A professional KNOWS. An amateur guesses - and then spends the rest of the time until clearing the trees desperately hoping they are right and haven't killed everyone by stuffing it up.

(The professional does the calculation so often they can whip through it in 30 seconds - the amateur hasn't done one since the PPL exam they cheated on, and knows they would take an hour and a half to get a decent answer.)

Airliners have one of the highest safety records for transport on the planet - and guess what? They run take off distance and weight and balance calculations as a matter of course for EVERY take-off.

[compressor stall]

it's actually better to leave the gear down to clear the trees

Even the C210N with no main gear doors? I presume you're referring to the drag penalty as the doors (on the older 210s) open during the gear cycle.

I'd say it's not about the gear doors. Which way do the wheels fold up? As they retract they present themselves side on to the airflow increasing drag significantly.

There was a light c210 that was taking off from Cape Don about 15 years ago and faced with the tall timber at the end of the strip, the pilot felt the increase in drag with the gear retraction, thought he had a problem and he wouldn't clear the trees. He pulled the power and did a gear up.

Sunfish, I have about 800 hours on type in an out of short strips and never got airborne with the stall warning blaring. I flew probably about 15 different C210 airframes.

As for people who think it's normal to get airborne with the stall warning going, please remind me of the best angle of climb speed, and short field takeoff technique? It's been a few years.

[Wally Mk2]

These discussions are always good to have every now & then.
That's how we learn, form others misfortunes & in this case perhaps a lucky escape.
As we all know the stall is a result of AoA not so much airspeed although there is a relationship between the two. Lowering the nose is the only way out of a stall unless you have excess power to burn which is not the case in most airframes.
Typical of low powered machines such as the SE light A/C C210 inc any induced drag such as a high AoA will erode airspeed very quickly as there simply isn't enough fwd thrust to overcome the reducing or low airspeed.
I only have around a 1000 hrs on SE lighties (C210 inc) & always found that if the situation was marginal but still within book limits then a little thinking outside the square was the go.
Like others have said here have a decision speed or even a point along the rwy that you may be famil with that if a certain level of perf hasn't been reached then it was time to pull the pin & stop.Transport Cat machines have a decision speed (V1) but there's no reason why a light SE plane can't have a similar speed or position along the rwy.
If you are committed to go then leave the machine on the ground for as long as possible to build airspeed(even just off the ground but level flight) 'cause once airborne if too early building airspeed can be difficult to achieve if the AoA is held at a constant that sends off the stall warning.
Airmanship, knowing yr planes capabilities & doing some advanced research on A/C aerodynamics never goes astray from the C150 driver all the way up to the driver of an A380.
Those damned SE Cessna retractable set ups where weird, looked like broken chicken legs when being pulled up. The early C337 you never touched the gear 'till you where near in crz:-):-)
I recall getting my first jet endo (L35) after having only flown PA31's as my fastest plane was a huge eye opener & got stuck into the books about AoA, stalls & especially Mach Tuck, the latter very interesting although not quite relevant here:)

Stay safe out there guys & remember that ever basic saying..."if it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't":ok:

Wmk2

[Go West]

No, that is not normal. The stall warning that is.
Is it normal for a 210 pilot early in their career to screw up? Yes.
Hopefully lesson learnt for this bloke.
Endless stories of 210/ 206 near misses. I can recall a very similar story in a 210 from 15 years ago. Old mate who is still a good friend afterwards put his hands up hands up "I screwed up, I survived, I wont be doing that again." And he had the Flaps up! Whoops.
Endless stories of twin near misses.
Luckily my colleagues and I were smart enough to learn and avoid disaster. Some were not.

[VH-XXX]

C'mon Sunfish; you've got to stop talking about yourself in the 3rd person. So who gave you the keys to their 210 ?

[SpyderPig]

I have a little over 1000hrs C210 in the Top end, in and out of all types of strips in both line and training ops. Stall warning on take off was only heard in hot turbulent conditions and only very short blips as the airflow over the stall warning messed about close to the ground.

As any 210 driver will tell you, it is a very capable machine able to haul loads out of short, sh1t strips in almost all weather, IF you fly it right.

Full load, up hill on a warm day? This is not the decision an experienced 210 driver would make. Better to take 5kt downwind down hill than try to wrestle it off the ground up hill racing the tree line to the sky.

Poor decision by the pilot and if "it happens all the time" I suggest it's time for tea, bikkies and more icus!

[Towering Q]

Hey Fred, I remember hiring one of those old 210's whilst hour building towards my CPL.

After taxiing out, I returned to the hangar and complained to one of the Ginger Beers that the flight instruments wouldn't erect.

He then explained to me the process behind venturi powered suction for gyros.:\

[rutan around]

This post by Mainframe in 2003 says it all. The reference to Laminar flow wings applies to all C210s from the 1967 G model onwards. ie all the strutless models. If you rotate too soon and actually become airborne you can easily find yourself in the situation where the aircraft won't climb and won't accelerate. It's a very bad place to be especially when the reason for early rotation was because you were concerned that the end of the short strip was coming up fast. Note: Don't confuse the behaviour of a non laminar C206 wing with that of a C210 wing.


Mainframe
29th Mar 2003, 06:51

DOH The Cessna 210 is possibly one of the finest aircraft ever built.

Payload and performance are legendary, it has big shoulders and seven league boots.

The refinements toward the end of production made this one outstanding aircraft.

From the 210M onwards the ability to extend gear and / or flaps at very respectable airspeeds, the sheer pleasure of operating this machine will stay with you for life.

Yes, it is a serious machine. It suffers fools lightly, it is totally unforgiving when provoked in the wrong way, yet can please and perform as no other aircraft can when handled knowingly.

This is an 1100cc Road bike, NOT a 250cc trail bike.

The laminar flow wing, the secret of it's success, embodies all that you learnt in aerodynamics, slotted fowler flaps, frise ailerons, washout etc.

This wing will not perform very well if prematurely rotated, also the washout has the wing tips operating at slightly negative angles of attack at cruise, and if you are silly enough to venture into the yellow arc, in turbulence, the wings will fail, downwards and flap the sides of the fuselage, not upwards as one might expect.

The aircraft is capable of approaching Vne in level flight at sea level at full power, and even in a normal descent, will rapidly wind up to or past the yellow arc if not carefully managed.

However, it's most vicious characteristic is the "Power On " landing configuration stall.

Below 1,000 ft this stall is virtually unrecoverable without specialist training and this characteristic, ( the loss of 750' in recovery on the first attempt after being properly briefed is so sudden that shock delays recovery)

This is the characteristic, more than any other root cause, that has killed so many pilots doing beatups and pullup turns.

This aircraft will not tolerate being flown other than professionally and with extreme care.

If you rotate prior to the appropriate rotate speed, you will invariably run off the end of the runway in a nose up attitude, unable to accelerate or generate lift.

If you stall in the landing configuration with more than 17" MP and dont get corrective rudder in quick enough it will flick roll to the left and enter an inverted spiral dive that is not recoverable before hitting the ground, ( think about overshooting base to final at 500', tightening up the left turn and subconsciously or deliberately backsticking at the same time. It's going to roll left, yes you're already in a left turn, and lose 750' before you recover).

If you do a beatup at low level and pull up into a climbing turn to the left , below 1,000' and stall, you are DEAD.

This is a magnificent machine flown properly, DONT do anything dumb in it because , yes, it WILL kill you. If you feel the need for exuberance or showing off, get into a Citabria, Aerobat or Pitts Special, where you stand a better chance.

Don't fly into the yellow arc, don't get near a powered stall, don't show off in this professional aeroplane. Treat it like a B737, fly it accurately within it's performance envelope and you won't be the next one to make it into the Safety Digest, you will treasure for a lifetime the exquisite pleasure of an aircraft designed to please pilots and accountants

[Pinky the pilot]

The aircraft is capable of approaching Vne in level flight at sea level at full power

Which reminds me of the time, 1983 I think; I was checked out in one; VH-TEV, reputed to be one of the fastest 210's around at the time. (Chris B, the checkie; Where are you these days?)

On the way back to YPFL from the training area he told be to set 25'' and 2500RPM when we were aroung 3500'

Over 30 years ago now but I seem to remember seeing 175KIAS come up!:eek:

[Sunfish]

saw 24 and 24 and about 160 in cruise. I was a passenger.

[Fred Gassit]

That quote is interesting, they wont run off the end of the runway noseup, they will get airborne with minimal ground roll, what happens next is more dependant on handling, I did always get the impression a Piper might never get airborne with the nose held in the air.

Q, that beat up old venturi driven thing might have been the best performing of the bunch, it certainly was very lightly equipped!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Sorry, but reading that quote of Mainframes, I don't recognise the aeroplane I used to fly.

Treat it like a B737

I am sure that Mainframe would have had an interesting conversation with my mate who used to muster cattle with his C210N! But then again, my mate would probably have a crack at mustering with a 737, given half a chance!

Dr :8

[Wally Mk2]

Jesus Dr:8 you must have some rich mates:-) A C210 for mustering, Christ that prop noise would scare the crap out of every animal within a hundred miles down that low!
Like all A/C when they are light they behave differently to when they are at max weight.


Wmk2

[BlatantLiar]

Just ask how much you weigh. If the pilot hasn't weighed you, or asked how much you (and everyone else) weighs - then they are guessing. Yes - a GA strip with two on board you can guess and be pretty sure you are right.

But a limiting strip? A professional KNOWS. An amateur guesses - and then spends the rest of the time until clearing the trees desperately hoping they are right and haven't killed everyone by stuffing it up.

(The professional does the calculation so often they can whip through it in 30 seconds - the amateur hasn't done one since the PPL exam they cheated on, and knows they would take an hour and a half to get a decent answer.)

Airliners have one of the highest safety records for transport on the planet - and guess what? They run take off distance and weight and balance calculations as a matter of course for EVERY take-off.

The runway discussed may have been suitable. Sometimes it swings the other way and the book says you can do it. Does not mean you actually will be able to do it. Eg in video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmEVwyMRYIY

[Aussie Bob]

The runway discussed may have been suitable. Sometimes it swings the other way and the book says you can do it. Does not mean you actually will be able to do it. Eg in video.The whole thing may have been perfectly safe and within spec. We only have one anonymous pilot few of us know anything about telling us the tale. There is no w&b, no book and no runway length or slope data to go on. The stall warning tab may have been positioned in a high position, I believe there is adjustment on the tab.

Those who bag out this pilot on the available evidence must have taken a lesson from the regulator.

[Sunfish]

AB, I merely asked a question. As for a "tab being bent" or out of adjustment, that shouldn't happen on a charter operation for which we had all paid good money.

If I thought there would be a just and proportionate reaction, I would have told the ATSB. The effing stall warning was on long enough for the RHS front seat occupant to turn around and look at me enquiring WTF? I just kept mum since there was nothing any of us could do.

All I can do is hope the Two bar pilot will read mark learn and inwardly digest what happened. If not, then we will be reading about them one day soon.

[Aussie Bob]

AB, I merely asked a question. As for a "tab being bent" or out of adjustment, that shouldn't happen on a charter operation for which we had all paid good money

The point is, you are the only person qualified to pass judgment.

My memory tells me setting up the stall warning accurately requires test flying and fiddling and most folk accept the LAME position without the tests. It is doubtful it is in the position it was in when the plane left the factory. I also remember a flight in a heavy 206 from a short bush strip where the stall warning sounded right up to 500 odd feet. My questioning the pilot got "it will shut up when we are out of this ridge lift". He was a 10K + hours plus bush pilot. He could have just as easily said "it always does that". I was a student pilot at the time.

Sorry, but reading that quote of Mainframes, I don't recognise the aeroplane I used to fly

Me either, I don't have megga hours in a 210 but I do recall I most definitely preferred the BE36 as the "1100" road bike. The 210 I flew was a good workhorse but not a Ferrari.

[Pearly White]

Strip is about 3500ft. The manager has cut back trees for another Two hundred yards at the uphill end. Sure it was the manager, not your pilot on an earlier, um, overrun?

[VH-Cheer Up]

Sunny, haven't flown a 210 but can recall the short take off/best angle of climb procedure in a Warrior involved taking off with 25 degrees of flap at 52 ktias and holding the attitude to maintain that speed. Once cleaned up you could continue the climb at 63 ktias If it was a bit gusty or choppy the stall warning might sound very intermittently for a few milliseconds or so but it would never stay on.

The purpose of the stall warning is well understood by all here - it's to alert the pilot to a potentially life threatening situation. If it's going off when it shouldn't, so the pilot just ignores it, it's not going to be much use if the wing stall for real, is it?

But you didn't die, so all's well that ends well. Question now is whether you're concerned enough about either the pilot, or the airframe, to let someone know you found the situation unnerving and that it ought to be checked out?

Suppose you open the paper tomorrow to find the airframe or the operator has just killed a 210-load of passengers. How would you feel?

For those people talking about ground effect in a 210... Are you sure? My impression of ground effect in low-wing light monoplanes is that it happens a few feet above the ground. Like up to four or five feet, tops. After a 210 has rotated and levelled off, the wings would have to be 10-12 feet off the ground - do you really think it would still be in ground effect?

OK, on a delta or ogee-winged aircraft like the Vulcan or Concorde, they carry a massive cushion many tens of feet thick in the landing config. Can't see how that works for a 210 though.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

climb procedure in a Warrior involved rotating at 52 ktias

Warriors don't "rotate" either! :ugh:

[VH-Cheer Up]

Well, OK, unsticked, lifted off. Flew. Whatever.

Seriously, though FTDK, that's all you took away from my post?

[BlatantLiar]

Whatever

No. It's not just 'whatever'. People really need to get this 'rotate' cancer out of their heads.

[Fred Gassit]

I said something about ground effect, maybe what I should have said we started accelerating as soon as wheels were off the ground.
That being said, there's normally some influence from the ground up to about quarter wing span which would be 8 to 10 feet which probably isnt far off.
I cant honestly say if it helped because I wasnt going to skull drag a plane that isnt ready to fly any higher than I needed. I only ever thought of it as a bit of a circus trick anyway, it was taught as a rough field takeoff.

[nitpicker330]

Whilst I agree that you don't need to rotate a light Aircraft in a lot of cases.
Seems that Piper don't agree with you----

Piper Warrior 3 Pilots operating handbook describes a flap 0 takeoff ( in describing a Flap 25 takeoff they use the same words )

0° FLAPS TAKEOFF PERFORMANCE

Flaps....................................................... ..........................................................UP

Accelerate to 40-52 KIAS (depending on weight)
Control Wheel ............................................................ ...........back pressure to rotate to climb attitude Accelerate to and maintain 44 to 57 KIAS (depending on weight) until obstacle clearance is achieved and climb out at 79 KIAS.

In the expanded section they say:--


Allow the airplane to accelerate to 45 to 55 KIAS depending on the weight of the aircraft and ease back on the control wheel to rotate to climb attitude.

[sms777]

I do like the word "rotate" but in a different scenario. When i aim my .357 Magnum to the target and pull the trigger slowly I would expect the chamber to "rotate".
Then again to think of it when you pull back on the stick you would expect the damn thing to.......:}

[VH-Cheer Up]

No. It's not just 'whatever'. People really need to get this 'rotate' cancer out of their heads.OK, I get it. I'll write to Piper and let them know. But enough with the semantics.

This thread is about a disconcerted PPL (Sunfish) who's had an unnerving experience. He's taken a commercial charter and found there's something NQR about the equipment, or the operator, or both. Some people here do agree his account of the episode, unilateral though it may be, sounds sub-optimal - but should he be taking the matter further? If so, how?

[sms777]

I think there is something Fishy about Sunny..:}
I think we should rewrite checklists like...forget rotate...instead just observe speed and call when airbourne: Captain....we have lift off!...:E

[Pinky the pilot]

When i aim my .357 Magnum to the target and pull the trigger slowly I would expect the chamber to "rotate".

I got one of those too, and I expect likewise!:}:D:E

back pressure to rotate to climb attitude

Agreed. Semantics!:* Now can we just focus on the subject of the thread as put by Sunfish?:=

Bought that Lottery ticket yet Sunny?

[gassed budgie]

Sunfish, how 'uphill' was uphill?

[Sunfish]

"Uphill" was maybe Ten feet over Two hundred yards, I couldn't see the rest of the strip because we were at the bottom. That's about a 1.6 percent grade.

It isn't just a bump, its flat on top from my memory of landing there.

[BOAC73]

......the same Sunfish who has BA on his extensive "no fly list" ???
Nah...can't be!
B73.

[framer]

It's much easier to make these takeoff decisions in the airlines than in the bush. In the airlines it's black and white, yes or no.
I remember trying to decide between uphill with an estimated 15kts of headwind or downhill with the tail in a 210 on a bumby dirt strip, 3 POB and about 800m, hot.
In the end I went uphill with a go/no go point to make 40kts. It worked but afterwards I didn't feel very good about the ratio of luck to skill. I can't remember if we got the stall warning.
In that situation, young, low hours, 200nm from the nearest shop, middle aged grumpy pax and no guidance from CP or owner with regard to delaying a flight , no training for similar situations during CPL, it really comes down to the decision making skills the pilot has developed throughout their schooling and teen years. At that stage of life there is a fair bit of ego naturally embedded as well.
In an ideal world the CPL syllabus and the company would have given guidance on making tough calls but that is often not the reality.
If I could go back I think I would have either delayed until the wind changed or ferried each bloke individually to a nearby flat strip but a conservative decision like that is the result of experience and exposure to wiser older heads through two crew flying which was still 1000hrs away at that stage.

[Captain Nomad]

There are times in the bush where blindly following POH take off distance calculations will kill you. The chart does not anticipate the soft section which will drag you down just before lift off or the hump in the strip (% slope is an average over the whole distance). There are strips in PNG that have parts of the strip at around 20% slope even though the average slope might 'only' be at 10-15% for example.

I don't think there is a single bush pilot that hasn't had a nervous moment on take off or landing. If not, he/she has not been in the bush long enough...

[Mavtroll]

sounds to me like a stall warning that was overly sensitive or incorrectly installed. 60kts rotate should be no drama.

[BreakNeckSpeed]

(% slope is an average over the whole distance).

% Slope??

You mean the standard "she slopes down to the west" isn't standard terminology!?! :\

[Obidiah]

We seemed to be stuck in ground effect I thought, stall warning continued. Is this how it ends? We didn't seem to be climbing. Wheels up and we barely cleared the trees.

On arrival at our city destination I asked if it was normal for the C210 stall warning to sound on take off. "It always does that" was the response.

Does it? Am I a panic merchant or did we just dodge a bullet?


Sunfish...5000 odd post on PPRUNE and you need to ask the above question...you're not a pilot are you.

[rutan around]

Sunny
There is no doubt the cause of your near accident was pilot error. I think the best course of action would be to have a quiet talk with the pilot and operator to have his C210 SOPs sorted out before he kills himself and all others on board.

Some where he has listened to bad advice or has taught himself bad habits. Some on this thread have stated that 60K is ok for T/O speed. It generally is but it is NOT for climb out speed. At 72K a C210 will climb very positively and safely. The further you fall below 72K the worse the climb becomes till eventually they won't climb at all.

All C210s need about 2,000ft (600M) to clear a 50ft obstacle at gross weight and perfect conditions. The Turbocharged C210N has the longest requirement at 2,160ft (same wing but 4,000lb gross wt)

Referring to the "fright flight" there was 3,500ft of useable runway plus 600ft cleared of trees. This gave the pilot in excess of 4,000 ft to clear 50ft trees.

Using the 10% reduction in effective runway length per degree upslope rule of thumb we can calculate that the 1.6 degree upslope would reduce the effective length by 16% ie 640ft leaving an effective runway of 3,360 ft.

Even a fully laden T210N would have had 1,200ft spare for unforseen variations in conditions.

Had the pilot used any climb speed above 72K the departure would have been stress free and the seats clean for the next flight.

If I've learned anything about C210s over the last 40 years it's that you don't take off too slow and you don't try to land them too fast.

Cheers RA

[Sunfish]

Thank you for your considered answer RA. I was mightily surprised by what happened and even with my limited aeronautical experience, I knew something was abnormal. I'm not sure if we were anywhere near MTOW as the aircraft had a Shadin instead of the normal fuel gauges. Pax, bags and pilot weighed about 480kg I reckon.

CLose examination on Google earth shows about 3400ft ground roll, about 1200ft uphill at say 1.6% and distance to high trees 1600 ft. past end of strip.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I'm not sure if we were anywhere near MTOW as the aircraft had a Shadin instead of the normal fuel gauges.

?????????????

Can a Shadin replace the OEM fuel gauges?

Not to my knowledge.

[slam525i]

Can a Shadin replace the OEM fuel gauges?

Curious why not? Is it because they only have flow transducers and don't know the level in the tank without the operator setting the initial fuel level? Does that mean it doesn't satisfy regulations for fuel gauges?

[rutan around]

Cessna claimed that their 210s k,l,m and most Ns (normally aspirated) had a 735 kg useful load. In real life with must have extras added you find most 210s have a useful load of 666kg give or take 15 kg.

If "fright flight" had a payload of 480kg and was an average 210 it could have carried 266L (4.5 plus hours of fuel) and still been under gross weight.

I've been told that these aircraft are loaded up to 25% (430kg) over gross for ferry flights to Australia so I don't think weight was a factor in the poor climb rate. I do think too low a speed producing a too high an AoA thus preventing the laminar flow wing from working properly was the root cause of the PP climb rate.

Cheers RA

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Sunny,

Re the fuel gauges - On the 'L' and prior models, the fuel gauges are in the cluster of 6, top right hand panel, two outside gauges, upper row.

Easily visible to all.

Not sure about the 'M', but on the 'N', they are located down on the centre pedestal just above the 'Fuel Tank Select' lever, (near the floor) so may not be readily apparent to passengers not familiar with the layout.

Cheers:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Quote:
Can a Shadin replace the OEM fuel gauges?
Curious why not? Is it because they only have flow transducers and don't know the level in the tank without the operator setting the initial fuel level?

That would be my interpretation!

Dr :8

[Creampuff]

Depends on whether the STC says it can replace the OEM fuel gauges.

I'm aware of an aircraft that has an EDM700, with a fuel option, calibrated to 0.1 litre in 302. The STC for it says it does not replace the fuel gauges and the cockpit must be placarded: "Do not rely on fuel flow instrument to determine fuel levels in tanks".