Quality of newbies

[Mick Stuped]

As a proud hirer of newbies, I am very concerned of a trend that seems to have been happening in GA over the past 10 years. The quality of newbies abilities in my opinion, generally with basic stick and rudder skills and flight planning has been in slow decline.

Why? Is it due to sausage factories turning out pilots to get the fees, without a sense of responsibility, or inexperienced instructors with no commercial time teaching without any real world experience just to get hours up?
We shake our head at the confidence of some of these ex instructors, yet the real lack of skills these guys and girls actually have, when they come to us with their 500 hours of 1 hour experiences, bad habits and attitude so intrenched, that we now don't take on any ex instructors that haven't got commercial GA time it's just not worth it.

It's very frustrating for us, as we have had to increase our ICUS time, as lately in no way, are so many new pilots ready for command in outback or isolated work within 10 hours. I can see why some operators are looking at going to 50 hours ICUS plus when employing newbies.

I have always thought, we as operators in GA have a responsibility to the industry to keep a stream of new pilots coming in at ground level. We take on the baton to fine tune pilots and give them a set of skills that will put them in good stead for the next step up the ladder. In the mean time, that sort of pilot will eventually make us and their future employers money, that's why we do it if we are all honest. It's not up to us to complete basic training in short field or crosswind landings.

It's not just us, a lot of operators I have talked with are experiencing the same.
Some even feel, that even though they have raised the minimum hours for a start, that they still, are not getting good pilots. Some even suggest that fudging of logbooks are happening to get hours up, to get jobs. Pilots presenting with some of the hours in the logs don't equate to cockpit skills. However without going and ringing every aircraft owner or previous employer it's impossible to prove.

What to do is open for discussion, but my thoughts are, make it mandatory that to start instructing you must have at least 500 hours of GA commercial experience. Remove GPS's from training aircraft and get back to marks on a map or reinforce the importance of dead reckoning.
The reason I say this is, it develops situational awareness, gets their heads out the cockpit. It's a habit best developed in training. I am not against EFB or GPS but you would be amazed at the problems we have now, due to compete reliance newbies have on electronic cockpits. Same goes for flight planning. For Christ sakes they are flying 206's and 210's VFR at 2 to 6000 feet not A380's at 40,0000 ft. It's not that hard. It will make better pilots that think ahead of the aircraft.

This all maybe just sign of the times, and I maybe a dinosaur or an old grumpy, but this is at the route of all future GA operations.

Good operators make good pilots make good operators.



MS

[outnabout]

I was privileged to meet a CPL who could not name the instruments required as a minimum for a VFR SE charter flight.

He was due to sit his instructors final exam just 3 days later....:ugh:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Couldn't agree more.:ok:

Personally, my advice to those considering instructing is if you aren't going to dedicate a lot of time and effort into producing the best pilot you can, don't even start. If it wasn't for the demand for fixed wing trainers, I would love to see the rotary equivalent with no Grade 3's and 400hrs command minimum, however this isn't realistic. Everyone needs to start somewhere, but schools need to be monitoring their products better.

Until then, we will continue to see pilots who think every aircraft has to run up into the wind (at least until the first engineer makes them sweep out the hanger they just dusted), strobes and transponders on from startup, radio calls that sound cool, circuits five miles wide, crap crosswind circuits and if they're able to fly without a GNSS, eyes glued to the map watching those ten mile markers go by just to name a few.

I am seeing more and more students who just want to look like pilots. Even heard of one who took their student epaulettes off and put on four bars at the servo before getting out of the car to fill up. :rolleyes:

[Hempy]

I too am involved in training young aviation professionals. This probably wont go down very well, but in my honest opinion half the issue is best described as "Gen Y"..

It's true. I see it every day. Most under 30's in 2014 aren't interested in doing 'hard yards'. It's all about 'just give me the answer, I have no interest in exploring HOW you go about deriving it'. I don't think it's necessarily 'laziness', I just honestly think in most cases they just don't know how to push themselves. They've never had to.

If something requires hard work, its too much like hard work.

I know this is a generalisation, and that there are always exceptions to every rule. But my experience says it IS the majority.

[Ultralights]

Why? Is it due to sausage factories turning out pilots to get the fees, without a sense of responsibility, or inexperienced instructors with no commercial time teaching without any real world experience just to get hours up?

yep. message is to short apparently...

[seneca208]

How can you ever expect newbies to be GA job ready, when the only thing the instructor knows is the quickest route to the training area?!

I hate to tarnish all new G3 instructors with the same brush, but unfortunately they are doing the same to all fresh CPLs chasing charter work.

[compressor stall]

aussieflyboy

Turning the GPS off in flight these days is becoming an unrealistic failure. Most GA aircraft I fly have dual GPS's in them and I carry a handheld Garmin and an Ipad with Ozrunways!!

I would much prefer having some more common realistic failures being trained like door opening in flight, pod or locker opening, Alternator failure ect



It's not all about the ability to do a 1:60 under pressure or the GPS failing. It's about situational awareness. Looking at a map, noticing what's on the map, reading the ground. Reading the wind. Seeing that town, seeing that airstrip, seeing that road, or salt lake, or homestead. Knowing how tall the trees are, how sparse the vegetation is. It might all be subconscious, but when you need it in a hurry one dark stormy day, it will be there. It's getting a feel for the terrain.

You don't get that feel on a GPS direct to.

Its the same for satnav driving around streets. I hate using them in an unfamiliar city as it does nothing for my situational awareness and my "feel" of the town. I will always study a map first.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

aussieflyboy

Turning the GPS off in flight these days is becoming an unrealistic failure. Most GA aircraft I fly have dual GPS's in them and I carry a handheld Garmin and an Ipad with Ozrunways!!


So would you be suggesting that because you have GNSS units in such proliferation, (albeit half being non certified,) you don't need to be able to navigate by time, map, ground?

You seem to be making a strong case for the overreliance on GNSS argument.
Very similar vein to the whacker a while back on here (not you, afb) trying to get a GNSS enroute certification so that he could use it for his CPL test.:rolleyes:

[kellykelpie]

I think we need to remember that a freshly minted CPL is a license to learn. Does not being able to quote minimum instrument requirements mean he/she can't do the job properly?

[27/09]

Turning the GPS off in flight these days is becoming an unrealistic failure. Most GA aircraft I fly have dual GPS's in them and I carry a handheld Garmin and an Ipad with Ozrunways!!

So I guess you don 't have too much time to bother looking outside with all those fancy devices to keep an eye on. No space in the cockpit for paper charts either I suspect.

[dhavillandpilot]

Unfortunately most of the new pilots coming from training are a product of the times not just aviation. My daughter, 24, and an accountant is going great guns with her career.

The reason, she listens, does her work, not afraid to ask when she doesn't know and has a strong work ethic.

I see a lot of instructors around Bankstown, most think they are gods gift to aviation.

I agree with other posters, new comers need to be able to be situation aware, and have the ability to navigate and aviate with the barest minimum.

[johnwells3366]

I can only speak from personal experience and maybe a few fellow fresh CPL holders who I have spoken to.

I agree I need some 'real' experience of flying A -B rather than flying big circles and dealing with some of the commercial pressures before I would make a good pilot.

I as most have worked hard to get to where I am but the next step is someone taking a chance on me

[compressor stall]

Aussieflyboy

Standard instructor replies above - now how about you grab your WAC and fly from Halls Creek to Tennant Creek...


Been there, done that. Actually, the first time did was as an instructor - without a GPS - in a 172. Did around the Tanami many times after before I had my first GPS.

I recently flew with a guy who could tell me that we were flying over gemesomegrogmate river and said he'd land there if he had an engine failure but missed the 1500m community strip 5nm away!!


Well he didn't do his homework before flight, or look out the window, or mark it on his map. I've still got my first Arnhem Land WAC with circles all over it - every time I saw a community strip (there was no public list of runways then) I drew them in. These days, why hadn't he got his shiny new WAC and circled all the runways shown OzRunways? Poor preparation if it was a check ride IMHO.

also teach them how to use the GPS to apply there [sic] position to a map. Agreed (although I think if you need to teach a pilot how to do this, he should be back in his PPL training). If there is a tool, use it, but know how to get by without it.

People managed to fly around the top end for 70 years without GPS. It's not rocket science, and not that hard a skill to have, and by practising it, you gain the habits of very good situational awareness and get to read the ground.


But back to the crux of instructing. I loved my time GA instructing, and wouldn't mind doing ab-initio again one day, but its hardly a career path from a $$ point of view. And from the outside of GA these days, flying schools seem to be teaching people to be airline pilots at the expense of any other flying variant.

[500N]

Compressor

Did you ever land at norlangie safari camp ?

Or take clients there ?

(Btw, it is covered in saplings now)

[Oktas8]

I'm a former instructor, current FO.

The reality is, that instructing and air transport require very different skill sets.

Instructing does not require getting it right first time every time - even on a flight test the examiner is looking as much for the ability to correct errors, than not making them in the first place. It does require knowing how to impart knowledge in context. I have known good instructors who could not make the grade as air transport pilots. I did, but it required the full quotient of line training offered.

On the other hand, air transport does not require an understanding of the building blocks of flight, the "how" of making a machine act the way you want. It requires the hard yards of learning facts relevant to the job, and learning them so well you get it right every time. I know pilots who would not make the grade as GA instructors, but who are very good at operating from A to B every day in all weather.

As to standards dropping - yes. The world is highly focused on user pays and each individual being responsible for their own training at their own cost. This unfortunately means a race to the bottom in cutting training costs and therefore cutting training standards.

You get what you pay for, but you don't see the consequences of cheap training until you've personally seen what expensive training produces!

[Mick Stuped]

Eclan,when was the last time you did a 70 mile diversion picking your way home between thunderheads in the wet whilst doing constant fuel calculations and keeping the forever shifting alternate landing areas in your head and keep VFR. Not PNG, really! Tell me you don't need ICUS training when this can happen. Even seasoned guys get a sweat up.

It would be irresponsible for me as an operator to let anyone go out in this sort of stuff if we didn't think you could handle it and come home safe. Sometimes Mother Nature can throw stuff at you you need to be prepared for. Miles with someone experienced as a backup telling stories of what to look for and places to look out for gets your head out the cockpit. Trust me I have been doing this for over 30 years.

Situational awareness is as compressor stall said is what makes a good pilot. Being ahead of an aircraft takes planning and the ability to think on the go, not sit back fat dumb and happy looking at a GPS screen.

We have only had a 10 hour ICUS policy in the past but are looking to extend that as recent newbies haven't got to a standard that our CP feels happy that they can do a run, safely,on time and economically. CP is frustrated that they have to spend time just getting short field and crosswinds sorted before they can progress onto commercial considerations.
This is basic stuff that they are not proficient in. 500 hour instructors we have employed haven't lasted long as whilst good in a circuit have problems with running to times, fuel use, and navigation. One in particular caused trouble amongst other pilots because thought they knew it all and couldn't handle ICUS time. We had to let him go before he was lynched, Was that you?

MS

[flyhardmo]

I know pilots who would not make the grade as GA instructors, but who are very good at operating from A to B every day in all weather.

I have to disagree on the basis that anyone can become good at anything with dedication, preperation and self criticism.

Why can't a good operator flying A-B in all weather instruct in how to be a good operator flying from A-B in good weather and vice versa with a good instructor going to charters/transport. They might not get it right the first time but with hard yards will get better.

Back to thread, many good points but lack of attitude comes to mind with lots of people who just "fell" into the industry. In the past you really had to be dedicated and have an passion in flying to make it. Now you just need to be able to pay. Merit doesn't count anymore.

[Wally Mk2]

It's all very simple really because you can only thin down the quality of instructors so far.
Bit like today's volume built houses, they are crap quality being built by tradies who pump them out for peanuts, quality doesn't figure in housing these days nor does pilot training.

Starting from a well taught student by someone from many years ago with enthusiasm when flying was a stable career whom then moves on to instructing himself with a little less enthusiasm to the next guy with even less enthusiasm to the next to the next to the next, next thing you know you have bare basic pilots whom have been taught by instructors that are only passing thru the system to get to that big shinny jet. Why put in excess effort when there is no need to would be a lot of what's the problem out there as a lot expect an easy path to that jet where as many years ago only the top shelf guys got the gig.

Today's Formula: Take one instructor who is or was just barely taught to get thru the syllabus then + dozens of students along the way with the same basic teachings (just learn enough to get thru the syllabus due cost) = today's pilots.
Welcome to the future.

Wmk2

[neville_nobody]

Aviation is only reaping what it has sown. The days of people who are giving up careers in other industries to become pilots are over. GA companies used to get highly self motivated people who would probably make more money in another industry but would subject themselves to the whole GA BS. Many people have worked for free just to get a shot at flying piston single.

Unfortunately the tide has turned, and this is what is left. GA has to change or die. If that means changing the way you hire then so be it. If that means you do more training then that's what has to happen.

Aviation is just becoming like every other industry where you compete for talent now whereas before talent come knocking on your door.

With the cost of training so so high now and the ease and better paid jobs elsewhere the industry is going to struggle in the future finding people with the right mindset skills and health to be pro pilots.

Reality is the risk involved in being a pilot now is so high that I doubt people are willing to risk it. The growth of the airlines is over and so the chance of getting a good paying job is reducing.

[DUXNUTZ]

Absolutely agree. The old school operators who may have helped you learn things the hard way through hanger appreciation, less than award wages and lots of psychological 'conditioning' have larger fallen by the way-side thankfully.

[Village Idiot1]

The problem is not limited to GA, training pilots in some airlines display very similar characteristics. Go figure!

[Creepy Beard]

I am about 55 hours into an integrated CPL course at a non-'sausage factory' school. My instructor is a career instructor with 8,000 hours or so. He has the least experience of any of the crew there!

I chose this school after checking quite a few out because they are more than a little bit 'old school' in how they train their pilots - less about worrying how shiny and new the plane is, more about flying. No glass cockpits, no GPS, no 30 metre wide runway...no stupid student pilot uniforms required, check your attitude at the door.

Anyways, I would like to think that I am trying to be the opposite of the newbie you are describing OP. I am working my arse off in my (full-time) non-aviation job to pay for my training. I do study hard, I do ask questions, I read lots of magazines, articles, investigation reports, and so on. It is also worth noting that when I hopefully get a job in GA (I'm probably going to go bush) I will be taking a massive pay cut from what I do now; I'm not doing this for money or status, I'm doing it because I love flying.

So please, don't lump every newbie in the same boat! We aren't all poorly trained with bad attitudes and huge egos.

[Mick Stuped]

Eclan, that's just my point. Things have changed, quality of most pilots skills have deteriorated.
I said we insist in 10 hours ICUS, others are looking at going to 50 hours. I have been told 50 hours is typical now in South Africa with similar flying.

As per wet season flying, it's always best to plan for the worse and train for it. If you are flying daily it will happen that you will get caught occasionally.That's part of situational awareness training. In the old days it was easier to set a newbie off with very limited ICUS or no ICUS time at all, such as yourself as you came with a higher base set of skills. As you said you have been out of it for 20 years and a lot has changed in that time. Just have a chat to any CP.

Guess I am annoyed because the cost to the newbie to get a CPL has risen and the standard has dropped. They aren't getting value for money. We at the end have go back and spend time and money(ICUS is dead money) getting a pilot to line that 20 years ago wouldn't have got past a check ride.

There are still some good training orgs out there, and the students stand out as the CFI's take pride in their fledglings. So don't think it is all Gen Y. Most of these are small training orgs or flying clubs. So it's all not doom and gloom. But the alarm bells are ringing.

MS

[Hempy]

I only said it was half the issue.

The other is the catch 22/circular argument that is GA instruction. Unlike most other professions, no one ever commences flying with the career goal of being an instructor, and unfortunately the art of 'teaching' lies solely with those with the aptitude AND the work ethic for it. Those people a few and far between.

The schools can't change it. Ground schools are as guilty as flying schools. Money is always tight, to the point where the 'path of least resistance' is not only the most expedient way, it's also often the only affordable way.

You have to pay monkeys when you only own peanuts.

[Pullbacktogodown]

Hi Eclan

I fly charter in the Top End and would have to agree with Mick. I also would not disagree with your experiences as I have seen a few bright newbies come on board and be checked to line with very little icus and be great charter pilots. The standard has dropped with flying training. I did my NVFR after I had about 1200 hrs of charter experience. The instructor who did my rating had thousands of hours of instructional experience and knew a hell of a lot about flight training but was clueless as to the realities of remote charter flying.

I guess my point is that basic flying training and Commercial charter, Rpt etc are two different games. I expect that flying schools should put out a training programme based on "real world" flying as this is what the majority of students are aiming for.

The company I work for wont hire fresh Cpls. In reality it would take 30 plus icus hours to get the average low time pilot up to speed. Most of the low timers we have had come through cant even do a manual flight plan!

Regards

[pineappledaz]

Mick,

Totally agree, I started my PPL training some 16 years ago but had to stop due to work & family. At 40 I decided to get back into it as I had the chance. Even as a newbie I was shocked at the standard compared to 16 years ago. Simple things like not being able to hold an altitude or read a map, and this was departing Wellington International in NZ!! It just seems that these little things no longer matter because everyone sees themselves in a shiny jet and lets the autopilot do it all.

Attitude plays a huge part and preparing to go through some hard yards, something that is very much missing these days. I was fortunate to have 2 months recently in a king air on air ambo missions. Did I learn lots, hell yes! Being thrown around at night in 60kts winds, trying to plan my descent, reading star charts and no auto pilot soon made me realise that stuff can go wrong very quickly. 180kts taught me to always be 10mins ahead. All of this happening while I had a prem baby in the back. Then came the landing. Only then did I realise the value of flying the 152 on 1 wheel down the centreline of the runway to come to terms with a crosswind landing. My instructor made me do this every time there was a strong crosswind.

He also told me that "the plane doesn't know how big it is, how wet it is, how dark it is or even how many engines it has...it is just an airframe. As a pilot we get the plane to do what we want it to. If it doesn't do what we want it to then we are doing something wrong, so fix it."

Maybe I view this stuff a bit differently because I have a bit of life experience (Spent 7 years in the Police and have had my fair share of undie sucking moments) To me there just seems to be a lack of common sense.

I know in the last year I have put in a huge effort to get into the position I am in now.

[j3pipercub]

Back in my day, a bag of lollies cost 5 cents, fuel was 63cents a litre and all fresh CPLs knew how to fly...

Question to the older blokes, do you think your superiors thought you were just as good as them? Doubt it.

Not saying there isn't a decline, however there might be a bit of poetic license going on here.

Pineapple, what sort of king air does 180kts?

j3

[pineappledaz]

J3,

A king air descending.

Apple

[50 50]

Another train of thought.

Perhaps these newbies, like myself, were told that they were doing an exceptional job by their very inexperienced instructors, who were only parroting the crap from their twit of a chief pilot.

"Get them in, rebook them, give them a different instructor every day, it doesn't matter as long as they keep paying."

It's not their fault, each person is only equipped with the knowledge they have been taught, and paid to be taught I might add. Unfortunately there are still some schools that care only about the bottom line, and not the product they are churning out.

"Offer them instructing work, use them for as long as they will put up with not being paid, and then replace them."

This is not the formulae for training quality, competent pilots. One may have 1000 hours, but it is 1000 hours of regurgitating the same crap you were taught by said twit. It's not your fault either, you are being told you're doing the right thing, and you've never flown anywhere else so what would you know?

I can't offer a solution. I got my CPL and then went elsewhere to learn how to really fly properly. It's a bloody expensive lesson to learn. But who out there has never been ripped off or not gotten what they have paid for?

Probably none of us. As the saying goes, that's aviation.

[outnabout]

Eclan - I disagree with your comment.


Yes, going 70nm out of the way to dodge thunderstorms, especially during the build-up or The Wet, does happen (often).
Yes, FZL can be below LSALT in Australia. Within the past month, I canned an IFR flight heading West from Orange, FZL at 5700, LSALT at 6100. (Couldn't go VFR, viz was 250m, cloud base 300 feet). I'm told also happens in Tassie / Vic (particularly in winter) but I have little experience there.


Mick - are you sure this isn't "Back When I Was a Boy, everything was rosy...?"

[lilflyboy262...2]

Mick touched on it before, but I can tell you for certain that Botswana has 50hrs ICUS.
That terrain there is perfectly flat with weather conditions very similar to northern aussie.

You are being taught a totally different style of flying than what you are used to from flight school. In fact, it involves throwing some of the stuff you learnt there out the window.
By the end of those 50hrs you are very proficient at what you are doing and are expected to be able to navigate around by terrain features with a failed GPS, landing with tailwinds, thunderstorm navigation, traffic and bird awareness (There is roughly 70 aircraft operating to an area within 80nm of the main airport) and general bush flying techniques.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with 50hrs ICUS. Can be done easily in 3 weeks.

[morno]

A King Air descending does a little more than 180kts. More like about 280-300kts.

morno

[Mick Stuped]

Outnabout, you could be right, but when I was a boy my instructor wouldn't let me get away with diddly squat and said the standards are set in black and white always aim to make these standards your minim you will accept.

As a professional it is up to all of us in this industry to strive for the safest we can be. It's called pride. It's starts at the bottom and goes all the way to highest level of management. I don't want to sound like CASA but I do think standards are slipping, and by the way they can take a bit of the blame here.

I started this link to open a discussion that unless we start looking at fixing a decline in quality of training, that bad habits will get worse and safety will decline. The amount of agreement in just the few short posts here shows that it isn't just me or a dozen other operators that I talk to. It is real and is a big worry.

Discussions with CASA over the past couple of years on this point, they acknowledge to me that they are concerned. But in typical CASA form increased the funding to the safety advisers and produced a DVD on hints in flying outback. No talk of increasing audits, or inspections on training orgs or those that sign these newbies off, well not to my knowledge.

Don't get me wrong when I was a boy, I did make my fair share mistakes, and had a fair few butt pucker moments. Under that all it was thanks to my instructor for giving me basic good stick and rudder and navigation skills that got me home safe and sound and no one ever knew there was a problem.
30 odd years later when ever I fly his voice is still in my head running through stuff. I am sure any pilot of an older vintage knows what I am talking about. I am not sure this is happening now as generally they all seem to sitting there fat , dumb and happy. As when we put some simulated pressure on newbies in ICUS generally the first thing that fails is aviate.

I urge all newbies to question the quality of their training, talk to other higher timed pilots, ask advice. You are spending your money with these people ask them, what they have to offer you, don't just accept they know it all. As with any purchase make sure you are getting what you pay for. Ask how much experience the instructor has and ask to see his/her logbook.

On a personal improvement note, be familiar with the minim standards you must meet to become a CPL, and make them your personal minimums. Push your comfort zone occasionally switch off the GPS,IPAD Oz runways and navigate like your flight test, it's not that hard VFR. It only becomes hard if you let those skills erode. Remember always keep a plan B ticking over, just in case.

MS

[j3pipercub]

Kingair descending at 180kts? Please do go on, my bullsh1t meter is getting a reading...

[Anthill]

The best intructors that I had in GA was a crusty old pr!ck named Col Griffin and my first boss, Bob Courtenay.

The first was an exWW2 Mosquito pilot who went to ANA and retired from the airline with 23,000 hrs of which 32 hrs were in single engined aircraft. He then did a Gr 3 IR and finished his career as a SE instructor. Col instructed me for some of my UPPL and also my CPL. He could be a rather blunt chap at times, he certainly didn't mince words but if you got over yourself and listened to what he was saying then you learned. The most valuable thing that I learned from him was that you needed a certain attitude towards your flying. Years later, I ran into him and told him with some pride that I was working as a B747 FO. He said to me, "Anthill, I knew you could do it because you are a survivor". He would know. It is the most flattering thing anyone has ever said to me.

Bob Courtenay was my first Boss. From Day 1 of his employ, he furthered the concept of having an 'attitude' towards your work and in a commercial sense. On my first day, I showed at the appointed time of 0800. He said that this made me neither late nor on-time- he expected that I would not ever be late for work and that the only way not to be late was to be early! He also used to knock back charter work if he couldn't do the job to 100% of the clients expectations. For example, if the charter needed to depart at 1400 and was to use an aircraft that was on another job arriving back at, say, 1200. He would say "can't do it". This ensured an optimum level of reliability to clients. It was notable that he had the only pure charter and air work business at MB; all of the other companies that did charter were also flying schools or RPT operators.

The key word here is "attitude". An instructor can try to impart the nuts and bolt of technique. A true mentor will go beyond that and show you the way to approach something. A mentor will cause you to change your outlook and perception in a constructive and everlasting way.

[pineappledaz]

J3,

Care to elaborate on your comment..I clearly remember seeing 180 on the ASI.
I clearly remember receiving an instruction to slow to 170kts on that trip..why is this so difficult to understand?

The point of the comment was 180kts is a :mad: lot faster than 60-70kts of a typical training aircraft.

Like I was saying..attitude.

[j3pipercub]

Pineapple,

It is difficult to understand because you would be flying a Kingair ridiculously slowly if descending at 180kts. Most turboprops are descended at Vmo minus 10-15 depending upon your operation at a 3:1 profile. So the only reason to descend that slowly would be forescast/actual turbulence. Thats why I was very curious.

I know you have a previous career, but remember you seem to be just starting off in this one, don't be too quick to judge people, you don't know if they are above or below you on the ladder.

j3

[pineappledaz]

There we go...using our words..makes everything a whole lot clearer.

[j3pipercub]

Ok Daz,

Thanks again mate, you stay classy. Now we were talking about attitude weren't we?

j3

[framer]

Thanks for that post Anthill, I got something valuable out of it.

[pineappledaz]

Yep..Wellington..expecting a rough ride..got it too. There are numerous variants of king air too. assumptions assumptions.

va 169..at the point in the descent..about 7,000ft.

you guys crack me up.

[pineappledaz]

Just remember people like me were patrolling the streets at night while you were nicely tucked up in bed with your little blanket.

Who cares about age, I made the choice to learn how to fly. I enjoy and absolutely love what I do now. Yep still learning everyday..not only with flying. You had to start somewhere, even crosswind landings.

[Clare Prop]

How about you go and start a Kingair thread??

Meanwhile this is my 2C...I came here with a UK CPL and instructor rating and a fair bit of experience flying charter and instructing in all kinds of weather and aircraft in Europe. I went to do my conversion at sausage factory "x".

First I was amazed that the ONLY barrier to entry to the CPL course was the amount of money a student had to spend. There was nil evaluation of their skills nor competition for places on the CPL or instructor courses prior to commencing, other than wanting to look cool with epaulettes on and being able to snigger behind students' backs.

As I chuckled at the old wives tales being taught as "fact", I realised that most of these people would never have got within cooee of a course in the UK let alone qualified. And yet, there they were, signing up fuglies who had just done an intro flight and wanted to look cool in epaulettes too, for a "150 hour CPL course" with no idea if this person would be suitable, living in their little incompetent arrogant bubbles, effectively cloning themselves.

What I observed was a very very thin veneer of knowledge, just enough to scrape through the absolute lowest standard that the in house examiner would accept. That was over 20 years ago and things are worse now than they were then.

The instructor rating needs to be completely overhauled and all in-house testing needs to be abolished. Then we might see some improvement in standards.

[pineappledaz]

Clare Prop,

"The instructor rating needs to be completely overhauled and all in-house testing needs to be abolished. Then we might see some improvement in standards."

funny you say that..the CAA in NZ has just come out and said the same thing at a seminar. More along the lines of entry into the courses and examination against a students own training history, both flight and written tests.

Do you think it is the introduction of so much technology into the cockpit, albeit rather cheaply, that has contributed to the dropping of standards?

[Username here]

You guys want standards?? Join the Air Force.. They are still teaching a high standard...

[Clare Prop]

Not really...I just noticed the huge discrepancy in standards and depth of training between the UK and Australia at the instructor level,it was the old Cessna/Piper hardware then and still is.

No,not technology, whether the instruments are round and black and white or technicolour and on an iPad the fact is there is no aptitude testing for the job prior to training and no competency based training or testing for instructors. SOME HAVE NEVER SEEN THE DAY VFR SYLLABUS and look blankly if I ask them to define the syllabus definition of "enter and recover from stall". They don't know how to write up records, they don't know their legal or ethical obligations, there is so much more than just colourful briefings and greaser landings from the RHS. But why should they know when CASA doesn't require them to and the flight test form makes no reference to it? They don't want to pay the extra that some schools charge to teach them stuff they actually need to know. They just want to wear that uniform.

And mutual pratice?? WTF is that all about? These people should be role playing with someone who has been teaching for thousands of hours and can present real scenarios they have experienced, not sit there drilling holes in the sky with one of their mates who probably only has the absolute bare minimum hours as well.

:ugh::ugh:

[Mick Stuped]

Clare Prop, that explains why we see what we are. It is as we suspect the trainers not the trainees. However agree that some trainees need to sort out in their heads why they want to be pilots as the real world is usually worlds apart from the stereotype.
The fact that we get the occasional excellent well trained newbie, tells me that some orgs still do a good job and have a good CFI with a firm grip on the reins. Sadly though they are in the minority, but they don't go unnoticed.:ok:

MS

[Captain Nomad]

King Air = pressurised turbo prop
Pressurised turbo prop = increased operating altitudes
Increased operating altitudes = increased difference between IAS/TAS

For that type of aircraft people generally talk about speeds in terms of TAS hence the questions. 180kts IAS does not necessarily equate to 180kts TAS (or GS for that matter) and therefore if you are only thinking at 180kts you might be quite uncomfortably behind the aeroplane - especially on descent...!

Anyway you probably get the drift by now...! :ok:

[chimbu warrior]

Perhaps these newbies, like myself, were told that they were doing an exceptional job by their very inexperienced instructors, who were only parroting the crap from their twit of a chief pilot.


Part of the problem is who the CFI is, or their instructor. Sadly the George Campbell's and Jack Funnell's of the past are gone now, and it would appear that some of the people providing instruction are insufficiently experienced or equipped for the role.

I see and hear people in the bush (and at major airports) doing and saying things that make me wonder how they ever got a licence. Mind you, we don't have Russ Evans doing CPL tests anymore, so maybe like the Reason model it is a combination of many lapses and latent failures.

[Ultralights]

You guys want standards?? Join the Air Force.. They are still teaching a high standard...


Fortunately, there are still schools that teach to this standard in the civvy GA world. run and staffed by Ex and still serving Military flyers.

unfortunately, a some of the students cant handle the criticism, and go where they will be told they are the best no matter what. even after they crash an aircraft through poor planning, and others are more concerned with just getting a licence than actually learning to fly. and see the small difference in price as the major factor in their training..

after reading through the incident reports recently, and seeing the atrocious flying recently around the place, i am seriously considering getting back into instructing again to at least try to make an improvement in flying and airmanship standards.

[Avgas172]

King Air descent ....
CHECK
SET
ARM
180 KIAS - Torque 15 1600 RPM
Autofeather etc etc ....

Descent
When you're ready to begin your descent from cruising altitude, move the prop pitch back to 15 and lower the King Air's nose slightly (reducing your prop pitch decreases the torque and drops the nose so this may not be necessary). If you need to adjust the balance after a few minutes to reduce pressure on control surfaces, trim down a bit. Your airspeed should be about 200 knots until you begin the approach.



Read more : http://www.ehow.com/list_7521165_king-air-landing-tips.html

thread drift terminated ....

[Pinky the pilot]

Sadly the George Campbell's and Jack Funnell's of the past are gone now,

And the Tony Kingham's.:sad:

Those of you who either did their CPL or MEIFR rating with him (and in a smoke filled cockpit:ooh:) will know and remember just how exacting his standards were.

FWIW, I did my entire Pilot training with him and the CPL part, in old VH-MEP (a Seneca 1:eek::E) was not easy. TK made sure it wasn't! I believe most strongly that had he not given me the hard time that he did, I would not have survived half the time I did in PNG. As it was, I nearly did not but that was my fault, not his.:(

Reading this thread fills me with trepidation, if indeed things are as bad as posted.:(

[morno]

Apologies for the thread drift again, but with over 2,000hrs of King Air time, I've never done my descent like that. And plus, bringing your prop RPM back will increase the torque, not decrease it.

B200, targeted barbers pole -10kts into 220kts.

morno

[50 50]

How did "Quality of Newbies" turn into "Look how many hours I have on a Kingair"? How many newbies have any Kingair time at all? None.
How any employers will take a 200 hour pilot and put them on a Kingair? None.
If you must wave your penis in the air, paint it on a flag and walk down the street proudly waving it. Or, as suggested, start a "Random arguments about Kingair's" thread.

[Mick Stuped]

Ultralight,please get back into instructing,or at least mentoring. They need the stories.

Just thinking outside the box a bit, but wouldn't it be great if in every capital city a group of old flyers could get together every Friday lunchtime or anytime in a spirit of friendship at a different flight school each week and put on a sausage sizzle and offer their services as mentors, tell stories of the good and the bad and encourage both instructors and students, to think about things like good airmanship and all that that encompasses. These guys and girls need leadership. Or do you think it's to late and that Gen Y won't be told. I do hope not.

Think I have heard of similar not for profit organisations in the states that offer a mentor service to newbies.

Just a thought, there must be so many retired ex aviators out there that are in dismay of the direction of our industry, but have such a wealth of knowledge that could be shared with those that wish to listen.

How about it Dick Smith you must have some ideas if this would be possible. Sure you could help get sponsors to get this up and happening if there was enough support from interested participants.

MS

[Brian Abraham]

some of the students cant handle the criticismNor can the company proprietors in some cases. Ex RAAF working for a school in MB told a student after a flight to give it up as his considered opinion was that the student didn't have what it took. Proprietor went ballistic at the loss of income and instructor departed shortly afterwards.

[Homesick-Angel]

With all due respect Mick, and I dont doubt the problems you face, I think the problem lies a lot deeper than just Gen Y attitudes and stick and rudder issues.

Ive worked in both fields extensively, GA instruction and GA Charter- they are both drastically different jobs, and both take time to adjust to. I think a bigger problem is the CASA system, and that the training standards have gotten away from the practicalities of becoming a proficient pilot and have been replaced by a cover their arse legally type of system. Airmanship is barely mentioned (unless its in Jargon that sounds impractical), and it comes down to the individual instructor as to whether all those intricacies that create a true "airman" are passed on. Most of the time, new instructors are just hard pressed to get through the syllabus, and are more concerned about things that in the larger scheme of things, wont matter til much later on in the students career.

Things that regularly get missed: flying on attitudes and Power settings. Not trimming, concentrating on things inside the cockpit, not looking outside, not getting a "feeling" for aircraft performance. the inability to create space in the circuit, Poor approach profiles, poor flare attitudes, Fear of xwinds.. etc etc etc.
Almost all of these issues are easily rectified by experienced instructors, but its usually not done until its too late. At the nav level, you often are still dealing with simple flying errors, and this takes away from the mental capacity to navigate.

I also think that the sausage factories, like any other flight training organisation, will have a mix of quality in staff, however the student doesn't get the choice of who they fly with, and may often get stuck with the worst of the worst for the most important phases. In an aero club, if an instructor isnt effective or doesn't get results, students will choose someone else through word of mouth.

I think that the only way to have it fixed is for the industry to respect instruction and pay instructors more to stay in the field. Its not respected(even within instruction in many cases), and its treated as a stepping stone by the majority which lowers standards again cos their just biding time.

Fee-help is for the most part, bad for the industry, as there are people training out there who never see a dollar change hands, and never really understand the anxiety of having to work hard enough not to screw anything up. I did so much work on the ground particularly during PPL, because I simply couldn't afford to F#ck it up. There's an influx of pilots who just don't get that.

What we need is people to stay in instruction, or to do it part time along with their other jobs and Some sort of scenario where companies/individuals get rewarded for being involved in mentoring.

Its easy to sit there and say its all gone to crap, but I doubt that many pilots are anywhere near as good as they think they for the first few years anyway. if you've ever instructed, and then sat in aircraft with pilots who have only chartered, you can see the bad habits, and most charter pilots would say that most instructors are too slow and careful, but it depends on the individual. I always made a point of getting out in WX down to the legal minimums even with newish NAV students, because I figured they'd learn a lot more to see it with the safety of a more experienced pilot by their side than to be exposed to it first time on their own with someone else's life in their hands.

In charter obviously you need to know where the next "out" is, and when thats passed, where the next one is and so on. i don't see that it would be so hard on an industry level to have those kind of techniques included in the syllabus..

I don't really know what the answer is, but generally speaking instructors leave the industry just as they become effective leaving many who will never make it anywhere else and hate it, and junior instructors. The industry as a whole needs to act to ensure that senior instructors are paid a lot more to stay because for most its just not a realistic career long term.

[Anthill]

There used to be a flying school owner in Melbourne. When some kid came in with Mom/Dad for a TIF he would go outside and check out what sort of car Mummy or Daddy was driving. When the kid came back, he would approach the parental check-book holder and announce:

Ive just been talking to the instructor. Your kid's a natural!


I have exactly zero hours in a Kingair and so did Col Griffin.:sad:

Mick, you ain't so stupid, that's a great idea!

[dr dre]

Nor can the company proprietors in some cases. Ex RAAF working for a school in MB told a student after a flight to give it up as his considered opinion was that the student didn't have what it took. Proprietor went ballistic at the loss of income and instructor departed shortly afterwards.

Or maybe the proprietor went ballistic at the fact that instructor had decided it was his role to "scrub" students rather than train them. Not everyone will be an ace on day one, some of the most learned, mature flyers I know had problems when they were training, substantial problems that required changes of instructors, schools or many repeats until they achieved the required standards. These hurdles give troubled students the extra maturity they need in order to improve. Sure they wouldn't have passed 2FTS, but that's not the environment they're in.
If it's an attitude problem rather than an aptitude one, you might also need to be sat down and told that your attitude stinks, and it needs to improve. It happened to me. Twice. And it worked.

[Brian Abraham]

decided it was his role to "scrub" students rather than train themNot at all, in fact he then went and started his own school. May have been a little of Anthills post at work, just perhaps.

[Manubada]

Hey Pinky............


Lets not ever forget the likes of Trevor Weeks (RIP) Now there was a real instructor and one hell of a gent'.


How about Bill Bell (RIP) Another stick n rudder chap that sure knew his product.


Ahh, those were the days.



Manu'

[Kenny Carter]

Manu'

Lets not ever forget the likes of Trevor Weeks (RIP) Now there was a real instructor and one hell of a gent'.

I'll second that. It was a privilege to be taught by him.

Kenny

[pilotchute]

Clare Prop,

Hate to break it to you but your view of what its like back in the "old country" maybe a little bit off the mark now. Your view that "everything is far more professional" in the UK I find is a pretty naive statement by yourself.

The UK flying schools administer aptitude "tests" that virtually nobody fails and the candidate has to pay for the honor to even sit. They are then told that they have been accepted on either one of the 2 big sausage factory schools, "0 to Easy Jet/Ryan Air/Flybe FO for only 100,000 pounds" course. Problem is the schools lie through their teeth and very few get hired at the end out of the hundreds of CPL's they churn out every year. They then have a huge loan they have to pay back or their parents lose a house.

Everything is money driven now. EVERYTHING!!!


As a side note you could have this exact same thread but call it,

"The quality of Newbie police officers" or "Quality of newbie soldiers/sailors"

All of these professions are having a crisis in attracting quality people. I know for a fact that the military now give out a brochure that virtually tells you the interview answers on your testing day. No need to study or do any research.

I agree with getting rid of FEE HELP also. The amount of newbies I met who said they would never have got a licence if it wasn't for fee help scared me. If that easy pot of money wasn't available they told me, they would never have bothered as saving up that much money was too hard.

[pineappledaz]

Pilotchute,

"The quality of Newbie police officers".. don't even start with that! Yep the training for the Police in NZ has turned so PC, even to the point that step ladders are used to help people climb over fences during training.

And the recruits are getting younger and younger. All the learning for the job is done on the street, alas most are lacking the maturity for the job and love the uniform.

[mattyj]

Get used to it people, society has had a "re-alignment" and production of quality young people is no longer core business

[500N]

Pineapple

You can't shout or swear at soldiers now,
even when they totally stuff up !

[framer]

You can't shout or swear at soldiers now,
Really? What on earth do they do for the first three months then? From memory being shouted at was pretty much the entire syllabus :)

[500N]

God knows. Probably the Standard method of PC correction :O

One of my ex Cpl's told me as he got told off for doing it and then promptly
told them the Army had spent 10 years teaching him that way :rolleyes:

[pilotchute]

Getting back on topic.

It's not just the flying that can let them down. Here is a list of other things I have noticed.

1. Cant iron a shirt to save their life.

2. Incapable of turning up on time.

3. Incapable of cleaning up after themselves. This includes cleaning the plane for the next pilot or just washing you dirty dishes in the crew room. They seem to think its someone else's job or we have a cleaner that does it.

4. Cant talk to customers in any capacity.

5. Talks to the mechanics like they are dirt.

6. Wants to know the exact day they will be doing a PA31 rating even though they have in only been the company 2 weeks.

[Kharon]

MS – "Just thinking outside the box a bit, but wouldn't it be great if in every capital city a group of old flyers could get together every Friday lunchtime or anytime in a spirit of friendship at a different flight school each week and put on a sausage sizzle and offer their services as mentors, tell stories of the good and the bad and encourage both instructors and students, to think about things like good airmanship and all that that encompasses. These guys and girls need leadership. Or do you think it's to late and that Gen Y won't be told. I do hope not."

Don't laugh – but I blame the booze bus for a lot of aviation woes. Back in the day there was nearly always a BBQ on a Friday, somewhere, few beers, waiting and watching for returning tribal members, watching the landings, taxi in and shut down; swapping the days yarns; listening to the ginger beers telling us what was fixed, why it was broken, who 'dun it' and what was 'dun wrong'. The airport crew used to drop in, ATCO's, Flight service, Met man, anyone who was around really. Sometimes even the guys from 'the opposition', (it was a matter of pride to visit and dispatch of as much of their provisions as possible). I reckon I learned a lot about my trade listening to 'grown ups around the camp fire'.

Those days are gone; finished by the booze bus. Perhaps it's the rose tinted lens but I remember toddling off in my airport car (wreck) drifting home tired, but happy thinking about the priceless information freely offered over a 'cold one' and a snag sandwich.

These days, the idea of passing along knowledge is tinged with fear and suspicion, wrapped in a tissue thin defence against prosecution for telling anyone 'how it's done' any other way but 'as read in the book'. The rule of black letter law regulation and being done DUI has taken a lot of fun out staying behind after school and swapping stories.

The other side of the coin is that few of the new kids ever 'learned' to work, how to set up a task or how to tidy up after themselves, turn off the light, fix a motor bike; or, to believe they were any thing else but a protected species and the world is indeed their oyster. It's not their fault, just the way of bringing up kids these days.

Aye well – Those were the days.

[Anthill]

Then (1971). the interview

Q1. Is this your Mom?
Q2. Can you get up and be here by 5:30?
Q3. What's your favourite subject at school? Do you ever wag?
Q4. Can you ride a bicycle loaded with 40lbs of newspapers?
Q5. Do you know all of the streets in the area? Where is Pelham st?
Q6. Do you go to Cubs or Scouts?
Q7 What's 28 + 13?
Q8. Will you come to work if its raining?

Now:

Q1. Is the starting salary of $50k negotiable?
Q2. how much is my expense account ?
Q3. Will you provide tools for social media access?
Q4. Is time spent of social media recognised as productive time if it involved marketing the product?
Q5. When do I qualify for company supplied car?
(Q6. How soon can I expect a jet command? -Aviation specific..:yuk:).

[outnabout]

Kharon - :D. Well said.

anthill - I fear that in your 1971 scenario, the questions were being asked by the job provider...in today's scenario, I believe the questions are being asked by the prospective employee.....

[Clare Prop]

pilotchute, it was a long time ago that I did my UK CPL, before JAR etc. It wounds like it has changed a lot since then.

I didn't say things were more professional, but if someone didn't have what it took they only got a limited number of attempts at exams (with negative marking as well) and had to compete for places on courses and so got weeded out fairly early on, no matter how much money they had. Wheras here they get weeded out AFTER getting their licence (and sometimes AFTER they have done some damage by using the "My instructor told me" method instead of knowing their references) as many are unemployable and have been given very unrealistic expectations in sales pitches, which is sad to see.

"Sign here and you can be a commercial pilot and get a job with Qantas, there is a real pilot shortage you know!" just after the introductory flight makes no sense to me. Why should they make any effort if it is all so easy?

Absolutely agree with you re. fee-help.

[S7ARSCR3AM]

"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates

Damn those youths, even 400BC they were no good!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Youth Nowadays
"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates

Damn those youths, even 400BC they were no good!


:ok:

(Plus enough words to satisfy the system)

[Username here]

The rule of black letter law regulation and being done DUI has taken a lot of fun out staying behind after school and swapping stories.

As a someone that has done a bit of time in fire and rescue, and seen first hand the broken innocents mamed by a drunk driver. Listening to someone vilify police attempts to prevent drink driving is a bit of a sore point.

You guys say CASA does nothing to enhance safety, then knock an organisation that has actually made massive inroads in safety/a culture of drink driving becaus it has interfered with "story time".

You can still foster that after work culture, it doesn't have to stop because you can't get ****faced and drive home because the booze bus will get you. (From what I've seen - the booze bus is the lesser consequence of drink driving)

[Kharon]

User Name – A bit precious there aren't we. No one is knocking any of the police, fire or ambulance services. Pilots have more awareness of and respect for their value than almost any other profession. My remarks were light hearted and very much tongue in cheek. Can't remember ever driving anywhere "****-faced" as you so eloquently put it; but with the advent of the booze bus, the concern of being accidentally "OTT" and perhaps loosing flying privileges weighs heavy, particularly if the drive home is long, through traffic. While I'm at it, aircrew are probably a little more safety and situational conscious than the average punter so; just settle petal, relax. The point of the yarn was that 'hanger' gatherings are not as popular as they once were; they should be, but they are not.

You guys say CASA does nothing to enhance safety, then knock an organisation that has actually made massive inroads in safety/a culture of drink driving because it has interfered with "story time".

Bollocks – plain. pure and simple.

[Luke SkyToddler]

You know what makes me laugh about PPRUNE

There's been sooo many threads over the years that basically consist of a bunch of "legacy" airline pilots slagging off at the new low cost airlines, and they always end up with a bunch of crying about "well of course all their pilots must be crap / unsafe blah blah blah because who else except crap pilots would work for those terms and conditions". And all the old checkies all stroke their chins and cry into their beers about how the industry is doomed by all these low cost airlines and it's just a matter of time. It's like the holy gospel with these guys that crap salary = crap pilots, and nobody can convince them otherwise.

But when it comes to GA, all of a sudden mysteriously it's NEVER the fault of the employer offering appallingly bad wages to do a bloody hard job - and I'm talking about instructing as well as bush flying here, ALL you pr!cks are equally guilty of it. When you suddenly don't have a million super motivated, highly intelligent, incredibly perfect young guys all willing to move to some top end sh!t hole and work 6 1/2 days a week for "GA award wage" - or sit around Bankstown or Ardmore all day unpaid waiting for students to show up - and then probably spend their weekend working in the office or sweeping the hangar floor, just for the sheer love of aviation and "desire to get ahead :hmm: ", then it suddenly turns into a 5 page slag fest about the youth of today, and all the old GA codgers stroke their chins and cry into their beers about "generation Y" and how useless they all are.

You guys aren't above the law of supply and demand. You want quality people then bloody PAY for them. If you're not prepared to do that then shut up and accept whatever you can get.

[Blueskymine]

Every generation thinks they did it better. We have short memories.

If you think you old timers did it better, have a look at the accident stats. Hmmmm.

[50 50]

Luke sky toddler has is pretty much perfect. The youth of today were trained by the old codgers of yesteryear. How about not dismissing any technology developed after world war 2 as a toy, and actually training your students in its proper use? By students read PAYING customers.

The days of students being subservient to arrogant egocentric old men that just want to be fawned over are long gone. If you do a crap job training people you will end up with crap pilots. Simple. Don't count the money and then complain about it.

The good ole days, are just that. Old. It's not 1967 anymore, customer expectations change as much as employer expectations do. Schools wonder why they can't keep students when "customer service" doesn't even register in their vocabulary. Nobody is obligated to pay you people money, but when they do, you are obligated to give them what they have paid for.

[Pinky the pilot]

Luke Sky Toddler; Whilst I concede that you've been around for long enough to know that of which you speak, and indeed I agree with your comment that Employers should pay their Pilots properly, I really think that you should stop and ponder that in some regards perhaps the OP has a valid point!

ie; That possibly; Note, Possibly, some of the fresh CPL holders are entering or attempting to enter the Industry with a somewhat unrealistic opinion of what to expect for their first few years.

For instance; You are rostered to fly at, say 'O dark hundred' ie be taxiing out at first light. When would you recommend they turn up at the Flight office? (I'll give you a hint; At DZ or Simbu in Port Morbid it was two hours before first light!:eek:)
Oh, and you had already been to the briefing/met office and lodged your plans for the morning!

And your shirt always appeared to be freshly ironed (it was) even though the Haus Boi (or Meri) had done it the previous day.:}

We were still expected to leave the Pilots room clean. ie We emptied the cigarette ash tray and washed our own coffee mugs!:}
Stacked neatly any empty coca cola bottles in a crate etc. Not left them laying about anywhere.

If we were ever rude or abrupt to any of the clients, villagers etc, we soon found out that such behaviour was not acceptable! (Hell, I was always on my best behaviour or so I thought, until the Boss once let it drop that we all recieved at least three death threats per week!:eek::eek::eek:)

And the 'Ginger Beer' was your Saviour, Fairy Godmother, Friend and Protector all rolled into one!! Piss him off at your peril!:mad:

And finally; The Chief Pilot was Der Fuhrer! :eek: He and he alone decided when you got the promotion to the higher class of Aircraft. And you never asked about it!:= (In Simbu's case it was a well used but reliable 'A' mod 402. And I loved flying it!!:ok:)

End of (Red fuelled) rant

The days of students being subservient to arrogant egocentric old men that just want to be fawned over are long gone. If you do a crap job training people you will end up with crap pilots. Simple. Don't count the money and then complain about it.


Sorry 50 50, Whilst I would agree with your first and second sentence, and obviously the summary of the third, I honestly doubt that such a scenario could be found in any successful flying schools today. If I am wrong please enlighten me.

[50 50]

Pinky, what you say is correct, but how many unsuccessful flying schools are out there that take people's money, and haven't quite fallen over yet?

But bravo on the red. Nice to see not everyone is a beer swilling troglodyte.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Yes Pinky my point wasn't so much whether the OP had a point with regard to modern kids, I just found a delicious irony in the fact that GA employers, having spent the last several decades creating and benefiting from this ridiculous system where young pilots get paid nothing or next-to-nothing, are now crying over falling standards.

Because of the tremendously high hours requirement that Australian airlines have historically had, and GA has been the only place where young up-and-comers can get those hours, the GA employers have for a very long time been artificially shielded from the principle of pay-peanuts-get-monkeys. We all had no choice but to bend over and take it in order to get those precious first couple of thousand hours in the logbook.

The game has changed a lot in the last decade with the Jetstar cadetships etc and I would contend that GA hours have come to be seen as less valuable than they once were. On that basis, the bargain of mutual exploitation between GA employers and up-and-coming pilots, is a lot less attractive all of a sudden.

If I was a clued up school leaving kid with an interest in piloting these days, I'd look at the ridiculous price of training, the state of the industry, ask when's the last time Qantas hired and realistically what are my chances, pretty much zero, ok then what are my alternatives i.e. low cost airlines, what do they pay, how much debt am I going to take on, how much crap am I going to have to go through and for how long in order to get to where I want to be, I'd do a risk vs cost vs benefit analysis on the whole thing ... then I'd walk away and do a law degree. It's that bad. I really believe a lot of potentially good young pilots are coming to that same conclusion now.

For what it's worth I don't even believe there's such a thing as "generation Y". There may indeed be a certain percentage of lazy spoon-fed self entitled brats out there, but there is certainly also plenty of excellent, clued up, hard working young folk as well. Same as it always was. The question really should be what can we as an industry do to ensure that when these kids are leaving school and choosing their careers, we get less of the type A's and more of the type B's?

[Clare Prop]

Luke speaks a lot of truth.

FWIW I don't think standards have dropped in the last 20 years that I have been here, I think they have been about the same, but give CASA some credit for introducing competency based training, even though I still get student files from other schools who haven't adopted it yet..!

I only do the occasional (non intergrated) CPL and if they aren't up to scratch then I tell them so. The job market is skewed enough with all the people getting "free flying" ie fee-help.

These days I don't employ any Grade Threes either as the few schools that turned out great instructors have gone and even though I've got 25 years as a CFI I'm not approved to do instructor training unless I go and do 250 hours of it for someone else first. (Also as soon as they get to Grade Two they are poached by the international schools so all that mentoring is a waste of time)

So that is part of the problem, CASA brought in that arbitrary number of hours to be CFI of an instructor school a few years back and stopped some career instructors like me from being allowed to train the next generation of instructors. Hopefully that will change with Part 61.

[Anthill]

Clare, I'll be on to you when I retire from the airlines and go back to my roots with a Gr 3 IR. :ok:

A long time ago, there were still the spivs and rip-off merchant employers. Plenty of people did pay for flying, too. Aviation has always been expensive and this has represented a barrier to employment.

Since 2001, there has been a change in employment practices at the airline end of the game: Virgin, Jetstar and Tiger want you to pay for entry into your job. There are no shortage of applicants, so this is the new industry standard.

In the days of the Two Airlines Policy, the companies paid good terms and conditions. However, industrial laws allowed the application of a "2 chances and you're out" policy for those who struggled to check to line. Contemporary Employment law means that re-training, counselling, time off, assistance, learner support, choice of trainers and checkers, etc, must all be offered to those who in previous days would have been culled earlier.

Aviation has always been full of those who think that they were Ace of the Base, Top Gun types who had Mummy and Daddy pay for their flying, pull strings, subsidise, support and otherwise bank-roll every thing that they did in life. You think that these guys didn't have an overblown sense of self-worth? Many of them made me wanna puke!

The bottom line is that the airlines had pretty good recruitment strategies and could be more selective. They could pick and choose from a pool of GA pilots and vet them rigorously. Recommendations from 'mates' (ie: Virgin's 'Blue Star' policy of jobs for mates-and then people at Virgin wonder about nepotism when the whole recruitment methodology of the time was founded on exactly that!). If they didn't cut the mustard they were out the door.

Aviation these days doesn't offer the income, glamour, security, life-style that once made it competitive with other industries. Additionally, there are more aircraft flying around that need to be crewed. Got 2 arms, legs and a head? Have you every knowingly killed a public official? Great, you're hired!

[50 50]

Anthill, I'm not sure which airline you're referring to that has such liberal "Two arms and a head" hiring policies, but I sure wish they would advertise.

[lee_apromise]

I just found a delicious irony in the fact that GA employers, having spent the last several decades creating and benefiting from this ridiculous system where young pilots get paid nothing or next-to-nothing, are now crying over falling standards.

The best post in a few years. Finally someone gets it right. :D

[Mick Stuped]

Lee_apromise, Luke SkyToddler, I will bite if that's what you want. As I don't put every new pilot or training org in a box, please don't put all employers in a box. As in every industry there is the good and the bad. I am very sorry you encountered the bad. These are the same ba...tads that undercut us, lie to get contracts and leave the industry owing money to all and an industry with a bad image.
There are a lot of us plodders out there that don't deserve this sort of abuse.

The reason I started this post was, because I, like a lot of others that get see a lot of newbies a year, are concerned at the general decay of standards that could lead to a serious decline in safety in the future. It is caused by a percentage of the training industry but not all. Good well trained pilots do still show up, so this proves that it is a decline in pride in turning out a good product. Something needs to be done to arrest this decline and kick it in the pants before we start to see a rise in the GA accident rate.

I love this industry and the work we do. Pilots are at the face of our industry and as such, their skills are what keeps GA operators profitable.

As an owner, it is in our interest to keep our employees, so why wouldn't I pay the award or better. That's what the award is for to make sure no one gets ripped off. If you do, don't bitch here take it to fair work.

We spend a lot of time and frustration getting newbies to a commercial standard. It's a great feeling to see a pilot outgrow us and walk into a new job ahead of a lot of others.

We employ newbies because of seasonal work and yes it is rewarding watching a new pilot grow in confidence and skills and become part of team. I won't lie we want the best, that is due to the fact that it takes a while to get a second rate pilot to a place that their skills are cost effective. It also hurts to have to let them go at the end of the season due to lack of work, but good to see most want to come back the next year.

Sad part of life, that in any industry you have to have bean counters to stay in business. As a manager you have to look at things like gross margins, profit margins, efficiency, etc. Two things that I don't like to skimp on is wages and maintiance, so that means operations have to be very efficient, you count every minute in the air. And are those minutes starting to get expensive. Good pilots understand this fact. That's what keeps a pilot or any other employee in work in any other industry. Business means, planes to pay for, money needs to set aside for engine and prop replacement. We need money for a refurb in three years for this or that aircraft. We have to worry will john down the road undercut us for the next contract. How will CASA's latest changes effect our operations. Etc etc.

At the end of the day we pay a pilot a good wage in return we are getting second rate pilots that through no fault of there own have been sold a lemon. Don't we have aright to expect a certain standard of training as the norm not the exception.

I think you forget like you we still have a family to feed and kids to educate. Not many of us long term plodders drive Mercedes or have an apartment on the Gold Coast. We live in the back of beyond because we like it. So before you raise the red flag and call all employers as****les spare a thought for all those mum and dad out fits just trying to provide a service and survive. I think from CASA latest statistics that there is something like over 700 operators out there with 5 or less aircraft that would also have been offended by your views.

MS

[gerry111]

Mick Stuped wrote:


"Not many of us long term plodders drive Mercedes or have an apartment on the Gold Coast."


Perhaps so but you do have a very welcoming pub! And that's why a couple of V35 flyers drop in from time to time...

[Spinner73]

Speaking as someone who is not quite yet even one of the Newbies being referred to...

As I drag my way painfully slowly through my training at my own (laboriously accumulated) expense, a couple of things occur to me:

1) I hope - when I have earned my shiny new CPL and the couple of endorsements that make it remotely useful - that I manage to find myself with a genuine employer such as Mick. One willing not just to give a Noob a chance, but to pay that Noob enough that it may survive, and perhaps even more importantly

2) I hope (scratch that, I INTEND) to be good enough to deserve that chance.

Perhaps that makes me entirely naive, but there we are.

[mcgrath50]

Having completed training relatively recently I have no doubt that (good) operators are having to polish newbies a lot before letting them loose. I think the training is too much a tick box exercise, possibly since we have moved to a competency based system?

I remember when I did my first diversion (due to a wheels up at destination). It all worked out and wasn't a big deal but I remember clearly thinking at the end of the day "Holy crap that unfolded nothing like the diversions we practiced every flight during training". I was discussing it with a friend who had gone down the instructing route and we decided it wouldn't be hard to make the diversion scenarios more realistic... but it would take more effort from the instructor.

[Oakape]

Never mind the newbies, some of those who have been around for a while leave a lot to be desired as well.

[Mick Stuped]

Gerry, sorry but don't own a pub, however think I have paid for a few over time.

Out of respect for my kidneys owning a pub and a Air Charter business are two things that wouldn't work well together.

MS

[Clare Prop]

Mick and oak ape, well said. I know Luke has a lot of experience in the industry but we are not all bad. I have always paid my instructors the award and been proud of them when they have moved on to bigger things.

Agreed it is the bad guys especially the ones who do the sham contracting who make thing harder for us plodders who do all the right things with tax, super, compo etc. Sadly now the industry is such that I only have one casual instructor and do absolutely everything else myself. Can't trust anyone, young or old, to even run the front desk these days. And have got better gross margins than ever.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Mick, I'm sure you're a top bloke and I'm sure you're not a closet millionaire either.

But the fact of the matter is that the business model that you and ALL those other 700 "mum and dad operators" all rely on, and have been relying on since forever, only works by paying your pilots S.F.A. Most employers know it, some of them even feel bad about it sometimes and buy the boys a few extra beers on a friday, but at the end of the day nothing will change because they're all scared about will john down the road undercut us for the next contract. And he's probably worrying the same thing about you.

At the end of the day the vast majority of young pilots, whether they're good guys or idiots, all have one thing in common, they aren't there by choice, they will be out of there like a rat up a drainpipe once they get the golden phone call from an airline. Fine you say, I accept that, the guys are getting their hours, I know they will move on after a couple of seasons to better things and I wish them all the best.

At the end of the day we pay a pilot a good wage in return we are getting second rate pilots that through no fault of there own have been sold a lemon. Don't we have aright to expect a certain standard of training as the norm not the exception.

In a word, no. As long as you're paying your guys a few bucks an hour or or $30 grand a year or whatever it is, you absolutely do not have the right to expect that the guys in the schools will cater their training to YOUR wants and needs. Most of them are in hock to the tune of $100 grand plus and the only way they have any chance of paying that back is to get their ass into the airlines as soon as humanly possible. Even then these days, it's a bit doubtful, but that's another story :hmm:

But anyway the point is, 99.9% of guys are going to cater their training to what is going to look good on an airline CV or get them through a sim check with minimum fuss. The least thing they care about is VFR map reading or short field grass strip takeoffs. Training for GA and training for airlines is a very very different beast these days.

If you've got specific needs of a pilot and you can't get what you want in the marketplace then as I see it your options are either take on an untrained guy, suck it up and train him to your standards, or poach someone else's guys. Either way it's going to cost you money. Well then mate I'm sorry but cry me a river, welcome to the real world of employment competition. Don't blame the schools or the student pilots for it.

To be honest I hope the trend continues, until the collective GA realizes it's actually more economical to pay people to make a CAREER out of it instead of constantly losing guys to the airlines, and pays and trains accordingly.

[Mick Stuped]

Luke, you have been out of GA for a while, last time I paid $30 grand a year for a basic full time line pilot was back in the 90's. You could also run a 206 for $200 and hour.

Have a look at the award line pilot basic wage as of 1st July is $40,470. Then add in a few more grand in allowances especially outback overnight, meals etc and chuck in a district allowance. Takes it to $43,780 plus. Now put on your 9.5% super takes it $47,939 plus. Casuals get better.
Now add to that six weeks leave a year on full pay and RDO's to make sure that only a 38 hour week is worked as per fair work agreements. Don't know I must be the one out of touch as just under $50 grand a year seems a reasonable wage for an apprentice. That's comparable to a second officer in a regional airline. All but one of other operators I know of all pay award. I know because they bitch about it start of each new financial year since the modern award came in.

As for training, we accept the role with gusto. Enjoy training pilots to a commercial standard and watch them move on and upwards, We take exception with having to go back over basic stuff like short field, cross winds and navigation. The newbie has paid for this as part of his training but isn't getting it. Who is getting shafted, not only us.

Wonder why all of a sudden operators are asking for higher minims for a start. Its because they are in hope that a few more hours, they will have mastered the basics. Its like a carpenter employing a newly qualified carpenter that doesn't know how to use a hammer. Basic standards in any industry have to apply, why not Aviation?


MS

[lee_apromise]

Mike, sign me up. I earned less in Indonesia flying a turboprop than what you paid for those 150hrs newbie.

I'd love to get my arse back to Aust and do some flying there. Can I fly on CASA validation based on my FAA? :E Apparently conversion costs too much money.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Yeah wow, $47,000, that's up there, gee, that's almost half what my school dropout teenage nephew makes as a building site labourer pouring concrete in Karratha :ok:

Supply and demand, that's all it comes down to. And like it or not mate it's going to affect YOU sooner or later - or rather it looks like it's doing it already. The entire industry is just rooted and has been for too long.

It's a strange time to be living in Australia that is for sure.

[mcgrath50]

Mick,

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am in 100% agreement that the quality of training from many flight schools is shocking and it sounds like you run a great company that would be a pleasure to work for. I am enjoying reading your perspective, essentially sitting on the other side of the industry to me. With that in mind I want to discuss your comment:

Don't know I must be the one out of touch as just under $50 grand a year seems a reasonable wage for an apprentice.

Firstly, is in general $50k a year a lot of money? No, not when you are living in places like Broome or Darwin where rent is $200 + bills a week, food is more expensive, fuel is more expensive, any sort of 'bonus' expenses like car parts are almost twice as much as in the city. Let alone it's at least $1,000 to get return flights back home once a year before we take into account spending any money there. Compare that to full time jobs my friends are doing in Sydney, some needing professional qualifications (eg; paralegals) others not needing qualifications (eg; call centre). It's around par.

Secondly, is a commercial pilot an apprentice? I'd argue no. Please understand, I'm not some hot shot newbie who thinks I know everything. I learnt a lot in my first 150 hours skydiving, then learnt a lot during my first ICUS upon joining a charter company. And learnt a lot bashing a 210 around by myself for hundreds of hours. But the key there is by myself. I'm legally qualified to do as much in a 210 as a 20 year airline captain. To me it's not an apprentice wage but a wage for a qualified professional. Again we are in agreement the 'qualification' new pilots are getting these days may not be up to 'professional' standards but I don't think we should be reducing the wage rather increasing the training standards in this industry.

My point is if there is a cause to be taken up here, I don't think it should be that pilots (at any level) are over paid. It should be that the training syllabus is failing our students. I posted earlier about my first diversion as a charter pilot and realising it was totally different to anything I did in training. Don't even get me started on places like Swinburne that put Airline Cadets and normal students through almost exactly the same training, despite them having very different first jobs. If a passionate person got the reins in CASA, I don't think it would take much to tweak the syllabus. Make the commercial syllabus especially include more 'real world scenarios'. We can even have a buzz word for it to keep the bureaucrats happy "industry relevant training". :ok:

[Mick Stuped]

Mcgrath50, agree with what you say. However really single engine charter work, really is an apprenticeship given that so many think of this style of flying is only a step to the regionals and the big boys and they better money. The days of a pilot wanting to make a career out of charter work because they love basic bush work and flying is gone. You can argue it is because the pay is crap, and no one wants to live in isolated areas. Well it is very much a chicken or the egg argument. There are people like I who love this lifestyle and the isolation from the hectic hustle and bustle of the big city. You can live cheap in the bush, but not in big regional mining centres, as there isn't anything to spend it on apart from a few beers and Barbecue on the weekends.

At the end of the day market forces dictate the future. We in GA are also getting screwed. We cannot rely on a RPT route that has set departures and can budget on projected loadings. To a certain extent, unless we have contracts to supply a service, we have to rely on someone walking in wanting to charter the whole aircraft to go somewhere.
If they don't walk in or feel that it's cheaper to drive we sit and panic mortgage the house and hope it will turn around. Meanwhile our pilots and staff still get paid, usually I don't. The cost of just having a company sitting is getting horrendous.

The other problem is if we put our prices up our flight hours decline as companies, clients can no longer justify the cost of a flight. The publics perception of aviation has changed. The low cost carriers has driven a value into the travelling publics head. The most common question that is asked is why are you so expensive, I can fly from Darwin to Bali, for half the price you are charging.

I don't expect sympathy, I choose to live in the bush and run a business with the best available tools and resources, and at the end of the day my tale is that of any small business battling to survive in tight times. Rising costs, ageing aircraft, decline in the quality of personnel and reducing income.

I do get angry that some out there think that all GA operators are tight fisted Scrooges getting fat on the back of the hard graft of the underpaid worker. In 95 percent of the cases I have found, we are hard working passionate people that love to fly and enjoy watching and teaching others to do the same.

MS

[PLovett]

As an older pilot in GA I have seen many young pilots start their careers in aviation and mostly all had what it takes to succeed. They worked hard, learnt quickly and were professional in their approach. Some were excellent. The few who were not didn't last long. However, none at the outset were totally prepared for what it takes and that included me whose basic ab-initio instruction was back in what many here think were the good old days. The generation Y thing is, I believe, just a rationalisation.

When I think back on my first commercial work the list of basic mistakes appalls me, but apart from some difficulty in getting to grips with a much modified 206, those errors were not related to flying. However, there was some very useful advice about technique that I have utilised ever since. What I saw from many newly minted CPLs' were some basic flying errors. It wasn't unusual at Alice Springs to watch a landing 210 proceed down the runway in a series of overcorrected flares until the excess speed had washed off. A quiet talk about speed control and using the correct approach speed had benefits. Cross-wind technique was another area.

All commercial pilots will require some instruction/mentoring when they start. It is unrealistic to think that a new-start pilot will know what it takes to operate in a remote area. However, schools could look at some changes. One company I worked for had a training arm attached and the CP had an idea that some of our operating problems in Alice Springs should be introduced as desk exercises for CPL students. He was concerned that navigation exercises at CPL level were basically the same as PPL; fill the tanks and off you go, refuel at the other end and return to start. He wanted the students to consider what they needed to do if they were to fly a 3 hour charter with 4 adults in a 210 where there was limited fuel availability. There were a number of scenarios that we came up with. I don't know if the idea was implemented though.

This is a rather long-winded way of saying that the more things change the more they stay the same. Yes, there are problem areas that should be addressed in training but it is unrealistic to expect a fresh CPL will be ready to go from the outset. What should be kept in mind that with the slow-down of airline recruitment, if not outright stalling or even retraction, pilots in GA are going to be there for some time. Some careful mentoring at the outset could have long-term benefits.

[das Uber Soldat]

ah the ole bi-monthly 'back in my day' pprune thread. Skill levels are in freefall, sky is falling etc.

:D

[Flying Bear]

To me it is not necessarily a Gen Y thing, or anything else regarding the times. Skills are not necessarily in freefall, but there is a level of "cancer" in the training industry brought about by a few latent issues alluded to above.

When I was trained as a flying instructor, I was given a letter from the CFI of the school (which I still have) and I have passed copies of it onto flying intructors, supervisory / training / check pilots that I have trained over time.

I paraphrase:

"You have decided to become a flying instructor. Since this should be the pinnacle of a flying career and not merely the start point, I will outline for you a few basic rules..."

It went on to stipulate that flying skills should be refined, knowledge needs to be accurate and broad, etc, etc.

I thought it was well put and places appropriate perspective on the various niches of our industry. I feel that, unfortunately, the root cause of the problem is that most individuals working through the industry are simply "ticking boxes" to try and get to the magical airline job - which is fine. However, they need to acknowledge that on the way to that job, they will work in various aspects of the industry that will not have a direct correlation to heavy jet RPT - and while ever they are taking pay from GA operators or flying schools, it is their moral and professional obligation to take an active interest in VFR navigation, short field landings or piston engine technical knowledge. That is simply what professionals do. Taking the money, whinging about entitlements and subverting the employer does nothing to strengthen the industry or make it easier for those who will come later.

Therefore it is simply a matter of choice for the individual - actively seek to gain the most broad professional development base possible - and maximise the chance of being one of those airline captains that juniors look up to, or just bide time, tick the box, taxi slowly to get "hours up" and be one of those pilots that simply make up the numbers.

When I look for pilots, who will invariably be in the early phase of their career - I look for the attitude that describes the former.

Approaching GA with the "QANTAS captain in waiting" attitude is dangerous - not only does it put lives at risk, but the livelihood of others coming through too.

I do agree with the earlier thought regarding flight instruction and GA as a career - I think that in certain areas of the industry, we are seeing a few opportunities for just that - with sound lifestyle and good conditions. Hopefully this evolves further...

[Kharon]

Good post FB. A while back, I was having a chat with one of the top drawer CASA FOI's and the subject was raised – in passing – I was interested in that my own 'thoughts' were reflected by the FOI. I forget the name of the report and details now; but it cited the '% loss' of 'knowledge' passed when learning from one with less experience than the original teacher. Sorry if that sounds fluffy, but the research is buried – the gist of it was that if 'you' are taught by a master craftsman almost (for example) 80% of that knowledge will be passed to you. Over time, 'you' will improve and add 'your' knowledge to those lessons, passing this on to the next apprentice, improving and refining the 'original' good training.

The other side of the coin is where the 'masters apprentice' is training the 'new boy'; not only does the trainer not have the 80% basic to pass along; but has had no time on the job to improve and increase the knowledge. Thus the 80% is reduced to 60%, and so on. Until there is only 20% of the original 80% available for distribution. (Example figures only)....

Sorry. I really can't explain it better without reference, I got the idea at the time – but all that remains is the concept. I'm sure some bright spark out there can dredge it up – I thought it valuable at the time and adopted the concept.

Food for thought – just saying...

[mattyj]

I suddenly realised it the other day!! Watching reality TV that an airline interview is exactly like an audition for The Voice Australia! Ritual humiliation in front of Wil I Am, Kylie and Ricky to be more special than a hundred other ADHD sufferers.. Or in the case of pilots..obsessive compulsive disorder.

[mcgrath50]

Thanks for the interesting replies. It seems everyone is in agreement we could be training future commercial pilots better.

What will it take to change? Does it need to? Or are we at a point where operators have to accept the extra ICUS needed to get people up to scratch?

[kingRB]

The days of a pilot wanting to make a career out of charter work because they love basic bush work and flying is gone. You can argue it is because the pay is crap, and no one wants to live in isolated areas.

Really?

Last time I looked, fair few people flying for the RFDS like what they do. Also get paid fairly competitively for the job too. Guess that's why they make a career out of it. Some of them even live in "isolated areas".

[dreamer84]

Have enjoyed this thread and concur with most of it.

I passed my CPL almost 5 years ago. I was ready to take on the world and had my sights set firmly on the Kimberley. A couple of kids and a mortgage later I'm not flying but have a well-paid job in the industry and a significantly different perspective than 5 years ago.

I can honestly say that upon passing my CPL flight test in 09 (despite my excitement at the time) I would have been no where near the standard that operators like Mick pine for. I would've needed every one of the ICUS hours posted here before being able to fly safely and efficiently at the professional standard in the north that paying customers and employers alike deserve.

I pride myself on attitude and professionalism, which has got me to where I am now, albeit not flying. The simple fact is my flight training enabled me to pass my CPL flight test, nothing more nothing less. True, this won't extend to every flight school out there but I used a couple of the more reputable ones at the time and my experience was true for both of them. I learned nothing of proper engine management, no realistic commercial scenarios (other than "brief me, pretend I'm a passenger"), and I hate to say but the majority of the instructors I encountered wouldn't have cared or being able to teach me that anyway. Yes, it was incumbent on me to push for more knowledge, spend time with the engineers and make a lot better use of my solo time. But I didn't, and I still got over the line.

I know for a fact that there are students who make it their business to learn and get as much bang for their buck as they can. I take my hat off, the guys I think of are my age and skippering jets. Clearly, if I was starting my training now I would be twice as thorough as what I was then, even if the syllabus or at least the flight school never pushed it.

Occasionally when I'm at the airport I learnt at I'll notice the army of diploma students with their stripes and badges, taking selfies in front of their aircraft to no doubt post on social media. I wonder where the industry is headed, but at the same time for every 10 of these sort I bet there's at least a couple of mature heads in the hangar pestering the engineers for advice on running an engine properly, in anticipation of their first area solo.

Not sure exactly what my point has been and I've got nothing in the way of any solution, but in a perfect world I would've passed my CPL armed with the knowledge and standard ready to fly professionally. Sadly this wasn't true and I fear for an industry where 'qualified' people are potentially set loose on unsuspecting paying customers when they're no-where near ready. That is, until Mick gets hold of them ;)

[BlatantLiar]

I bet there's at least a couple of naive heads in the hangar pestering the engineers for advice on running an engine properly

Fixed that one for you :E

*runs for cover*

[Fuel-Off]

One brisk morning I asked the (very new) FO to switch the ice protection on while climbing through a few layers. He promptly fiddles with knobs and comments: 'You know this is pretty cool, I've never flown through cloud before!'

My response was simply :eek:

Apparently he did his IFR training during the summer in the southern states and pretty much got the job with my company straight away. Sim was obviously fake weather and the line training was during a prolonged streak of CAVOK.

Needless to say that entire trip consisted of me going :ugh:.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

I learned nothing of proper engine management, no realistic commercial scenarios (other than "brief me, pretend I'm a passenger"), and I hate to say but the majority of the instructors I encountered wouldn't have cared or being able to teach me that anyway.

Well, there ya go!!:ugh: Now I do know for sure that the Flying School where I did all of my training, from first trial flight right through to MEIFR rating (and the first four or five renewals) was quite arguably one of the best one in Australia.:ok:

I got put through 'the works' to put it bluntly. Engine and systems management had a very high priority; Look after Mr Lycoming/Continental and he'll look after you. Abuse or neglect him and watch the **** out was said more than a few times.

Likewise, Commercial scenarios were simulated many times. I still remember quite clearly my apprehension when being told (not asked) to prepare a flight plan for a charter that one of the Instructors was rostered to do in the Twin, and this was still when I was completing my final PPL Navs.:eek:

Both the Instructor and CFI/Owner of the Flying School went over the plan with magnifying glasses and it passed muster!

I bet there's at least a couple of mature heads in the hangar pestering the engineers for advice on running an engine properly,

I was encouraged to do likewise.:ok:

Sadly, this School no longer exists. Time hath passed and age wearieth.:sad:

BlatantLiar Consider yourself told!:=

[Blueskymine]

Flying school i went through treated commercial students as employees, right down to washing and cleaning aeroplanes.

I was very prepared for up north. In fact i didn't know how to use a gps until my first charter when the boss handed me one and said use mine, the wx is a bit dodgy today.

I was an instant convert. However I was very proficient in VFR Nav.

[BlatantLiar]

BlatantLiar Consider yourself told!

My previous post stemmed from the fact that a lot of the things engineers told me about engine management turned out to be incorrect once I did some research for myself by referring to published data.

[Blueskymine]

Engineers fix and service engines.

Pilots operate engines.

Remember that next time an engineer tells you how to operate one :ok:

It'd be like you telling the engineer how to fix one :E

[Pinky the pilot]

My previous post stemmed from the fact that a lot of the things engineers told me about engine management turned out to be incorrect once I did some research for myself by referring to published data.

A fair Cop!:O My experience however has been the opposite. Guess it's the quality of the Engineer you talk to as well!:hmm:

[upintheair_]

Being a "newbie" myself, but being someone who prides themselves on learning the proper way to do things only to have so many sub par students sharing the air.

I cringe every time I head out to the pracise area in my training region. Lack of radio calls, breaking airspace, poor situational awareness for the multitude of other aircraft training. Also, we have a big international group that train here (airlines from China send students here to learn) so the English on the radio is less than desirable and most of the time impossible to understand. How they get their English proficiency tests passed is beyond me.

Take it back to the airport, poor circuits (OVERLY large), floating half way down the runway until touch down, lack of radio calls etc. etc. This is also at one of the busiest training airports in the country (CZBB) in very close proximity to Vancouver International so it always makes for an exciting flight.

I've had a few close encounters in the practice area from people not making calls saying their location and ALT. I'm happy to be done now and not have to fly in the training area or circuit anymore.