In the case of pilot error does the Captain always carry the can?

[Exascot]

There is an old thread (165071) dating back to 2005 about Kipper Fleet ‘Captains’ where this question is skirted around. Who got carpeted if the P1 went off the runway and the Captain was an AEO down the back?

We had an incident where a Captain was just finishing his LHS conversion. There was a copilot in the right hand seat but the aircraft commander was the Training Captain in the jump seat. Taxying in there was a set of steps port side with a ground crew chappie standing on top indicating that there was enough wing tip clearance. A millisecond after he jumped clear the wing clipped the steps. The Training Captain got ‘the’ interview.

What would happen if the CAS (not qualified on type) wanted a spin in a C130. He would have a training Captain in the RHS. The CAS screws up the approach (I know you wouldn’t sir, thank you for my monthly pension) the ‘Captain’ says, ‘I have control’ but the CAS flatly refuses to hand over and they prang. Does the CAS carpet the Captain?

Please can we not open another discussion on the famous Royal prang it has been hammered to death.

[HTB]

Who signed the Auth sheet and 700?

[ShotOne]

I hope that wouldn't be allowed to happen any more than if the tea lady (not qualified on type)" fancied a spin". To answer your question, allowing an unqualified person to attempt an approach demonstrates poor captaincy so yes he gets carpeted!

[jamesman]

Is this not what happened with HRH Charles in Shetlands? Was he the Capt on this occasion I seem to remember that the 'real' Captain caught a bit of ac old for the incident.:(

[Courtney Mil]

Close to a record. Three post to get the the one thing the OP wasn't asking about!

[ShotOne]

You're going down exactly the line the OP wanted to avoid. It was Islay anyway.

[Sloppy Link]

The Captain is ultimately responsible however, if a member of crew does not "perform to a reasonable expected standard", this can mitigate the level of the Captains culpability. Captain of HMS Nottingham was on board as she ran aground but the XO caught the incoming.

[Onceapilot]

Exascot, Hmmm... your question genuinely surprises me as your profile seems to indicate a considerable flying (any Captaincy?) background? :confused:

OAP

[Basil]

Whatever the BOI says.

[Wrathmonk]

What about with the RN FAA? Don't they run the policy that the captain is the most senior crew member (rank/time wise, regardless of seat position) or has that all changed under JFH/JHC etc?

[Shack37]

I hope that wouldn't be allowed to happen any more than if the tea lady (not qualified on type)" fancied a spin". To answer your question, allowing an unqualified person to attempt an approach demonstrates poor captaincy so yes he gets carpeted!

But the tea lady probably isn´t CAS. Is it written in bold somewhere that the designated Captain can deny a VSO´s "request for a spin"?

I would hope so, if not then CAS should accept responsability.

[Rossian]

.....the RAF deemed "captaincy" indivisible. As an ex-kipper fleet back-end captain I always accepted that if P1 ran off the concrete that I would be there facing the music beside him.

The USN in their MPA fleet DID divide the responsibility so the LHS pilot was responsible for the safety of the a/c,crew, and the "Mission Commander" was usually the tactical coordinator (TACCO) and was responsible for the proper execution of the briefed mission.

The USAF as far as I found it was always the P1 who was the captain.
As an illustration I remember being briefed very sternly by a major on an NAEW that HE was the captain and that what HE said WENT. I went up to the flight deck at one point and asked him what exactly HIS crew was doing, Holding over Aalborg in a race track was the reply. But what are THE CREW doing after all YOU'RE in charge.
"Aft of the flight deck door is mission crew **** let them get on with it." Didn't know and didn't care

"aye that'll be right" as they say in Glasgow.

I was fortunate with my P1 who never ever put me in an invidious position but after I left and he became captain he put himself in a VERY invidious position.

As in all things communication is the key to making things like this work. It isn't always easy. Later it became CRM, but the essentials are the same.

The Ancient Mariner

[oxenos]

People outside the Kipper fleet were always confused over the responsibilities of a non-pilot Captain.
The captain was appointed on the basis of being the best able to conduct the overall operation of the aircraft, and was in full overall command.
A first pilot to a Nav. Captain was responsible TO THE CAPTAIN for the safe flying of the aircraft. No different to a first Nav being responsible to a pilot Captain for the safe navigation - the pilot Captain still had overall responsibility.
Early 70s I was flying (Nimrods) as First Pilot to a Nav. Captain who told me he had once been in exactly this situation quoted in the OP while a Captain on Shackletons.
His aircraft had ended up off the side of the runway following a crosswind landing. The inquiry asked him
(a) Had he checked that the crosswind was within limits.
(b) Was he satisfied that his P1 was up to date on all his recurrent training.
(c) Was he satisfied that his P1 was not fatigued or suffering from anything that would have affected his abilities.
Since he could answer yes to all the above, he was off the hook.

I quite agree that the key to it all was teamwork, but that applied whoever was Captain.

My recollection of the USN system is a little different to Rossian's. No doubt someone will put us straight. Certainly they normally divided the command, which we found very strange. As I recall,
A Patrol Plane Commander was responsible for the flying but not the tattics
A Tacco was responsible for tattics but not the flying.
A pilot who was responsible for both was a Mission Commander.

To add to the confusion, in the USN the Plane Captain was what we would call the Crew Chief

[Tourist]

No, the RN don't make the most senior person the captain. I have flown as captain sitting next to or in front of captains and commodores.

It tends to be a reasonable mix of most senior/suitable/qualified/current/capable in the current role is stitched to be captain. i.e. On a pinging trip the observer is slightly more likely to be the captain, but on a gh trip it is more likely to be a pilot.

[taxydual]

Captain briefing Co-pilot

"In case of an accident, I, as Captain, will be the last to leave the Aircraft. If I pass you, you are to assume the rank of Captain........."

With apologies to David Gunson.

[Exascot]

Onceapilot: Exascot, Hmmm... your question genuinely surprises me as your profile seems to indicate a considerable flying (any Captaincy?) background?

Considerable command time including Royal and Ministerial but I think you can see by some of the replies it is worth discussion. Thank you Kipper Fleet guys for making that situation clearer.

Thanks also for the PMs where you are not prepared to go public.

Edited to add: Just discussing this with Mrs Exascot (ret'd ATCO) her point: I know this was mainly a military issue but what is the situation if on a multi crew civilian flight when the captain is shacked up with a toastie in his bunk and the senior first officer in his seat busts a level and has an air miss? The AF accident was slightly different because the captain was in the jump seat at impact.

[Wander00]

ISTR many years ago when a sortie in the FAA went t-u, the senior guy airborne was the observer in the second aircraft, so he took the hit

[BEagle]

No stick = no vote. End of!

[Onceapilot]

Well Exascot, can I presume you were never an instructor or an examiner where you performed as Captain while not in a seat at the flying controls? That might have sharpened your perception. At the same time, that is only an extension of a Captains overarching responsibility for all aspects of the operation of his or her aircraft, subject to the responsibility of other individuals to perform within their qualifications and assigned crew task. Also, you might find it worth contemplating the concept of a Crew Commander, assigned in addition to the aircraft Captain. Cheers


OAP

[ShotOne]

In the civilian world, exascot they would (in theory at least) take an overall view of the facts and dish the dirt accordingly. In practice, in most instances, if the F/O screws up, so does the Capt. unless he's clearly done something that wasn't preventable. If an F/O, say put a wheel off during a crosswind landing the Captains decision to allow him the landing in those conditions would come under close scrutiny.

In your opening example of the CAS joyride the civil criminal justice system would probably take precedence in the likely event that someone was hurt or, worse, killed. A court might well regard the decision to allow an unqualified pilot to attempt to land an aircraft as grossly negligent and unless there was an exceptionally strong operational reason, they'd both be facing jail time.

[alf5071h]

The basis of this discussion depends on how ‘error’ is defined; and thence problems of definition which include limiting thoughts and situations, and considering circumstantial factors.
Some areas of aviation safety have attempted to break out of these constraints – ‘Error is a meaningless concept’ - an introduction to a NATO conference on error (looking for link).
Similar issues are identified in:-
‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’ ( www.scribd.com/doc/181044462/The-emperor%E2%80%99s-new-clothes-pdf)
‘The Reinvention of Human Error’. (www.lusa.lu.se/upload/Trafikflyghogskolan/TR2002-01_ReInventionofHumanError.pdf)
‘Perspectives on Human Error: Hindsight Biases and Local Rationality’ (http://csel.eng.ohio-state.edu/woods/error/app_cog_hand_chap.pdf)

A more valuable approach for safety is to consider how circumstantial factors and the environment affected the individuals – variable human (crew) performance. This could be used to generate a better understanding of the overall situation (from which to learn) than that achieved achieved by ‘carpeting’ an individual; unfortunately the military is more biased to blame – structural hierarchy, and that 'blame' is for more satisfying both for individuals and those ranking above.

“Responsibility lies with those who could act but do not, it lies with those who could learn but do not and for those who evaluate it can add to their capacity to make interventions which might make all our lives the safer”. P. Capper, Cave Creek Commissions of Inquiry.

[oxenos]

"No stick = no vote. End of!"
A somewhat arrogant comment, I feel.
You have to consider what you are trying to achieve with the aircraft.
In the case of the Kipper fleet the aircraft was merely a vehicle from which to carry out anti-submarine operations, search and rescue, intelligence gathering or whatever. It was right that the person best able to conduct the operation should be in command. He did not need to clutch a stick to do so.
When I flew as a (pilot) Captain I found that it was not always easy to keep a mental picture of the tattical situation, particularly when manouevering the aircraft at 200' at night. It required, as I said earlier on this thread, a good level of teamwork with the rear crew, who had the situation displays in front of them.
Do ship's captains steer the ship? Do the Rodneys commanding tanks have to do the driving?

[Two's in]

The Army Air Corps deserve some credit for their CRM training, where disparate ranks are often crewed in a "reverse" rank structure, particularly with WO/SNCO aircraft captains flying with an Officer pilot. It seems to continue to work well and reinforces the point that in the cockpit, qualifications and experience are scored differently to seniority and rank. It also requires self discipline and careful monitoring to ensure that the apparent switching of rank and roles happens only in a carefully defined environment.

Back to the original question, if you signed the 700 and the Auth sheet, it's a safe bet you are pretty much accountable for the safe conduct of the flight, whatever your mission role might be.

[Rossian]

....having once had the dubious pleasure of being given a HUGE bollocking by the admiral in charge of Ark Royal (the old one).

He sat me in his scrubbed whitewood bridge chair and pointed out to me as the ops room hummed around us, a/c being launched etc that as long as it was all going nicely, everyone getting on with their jobs he just kept a watching brief.

"However, when it all turns to rats every bloody eye in this space will turn to me with unspoken question NOW WHAT BOSS??" That's when I earn my pay. Now go away and don't ever send a smartarse signal like the one you sent to me yesterday!!"

Cheery Aye Aye sir

The Ancient Mariner

[500N]

Rossian

You could at least tell us what you put int he signal that ensured you
got a good bollocking :O

[Exascot]

Well Exascot, can I presume you were never an instructor or an examiner where you performed as Captain while not in a seat at the flying controls? That might have sharpened your perception. At the same time, that is only an extension of a Captains overarching responsibility for all aspects of the operation of his or her aircraft, subject to the responsibility of other individuals to perform within their qualifications and assigned crew task. Also, you might find it worth contemplating the concept of a Crew Commander, assigned in addition to the aircraft Captain. Cheers


OAP

Roger :cool:

[Rossian]

.....other variations are available.

My post-sortie signal to the ship had contained some scathing remarks as to the ability of the ship's command team to employ me in a productive fashion along with their ability to organise a piss-up in a brewery. Or some such. It had gone on in some detail.

When my squadron boss found out why a Sea King had come to pick up one of his JOs to take him out to the carrier I was on the receiving end of another bollocking. That's what Flying Officers were for, innit??

The Ancient Mariner

[500N]

That's what Flying Officers were for, innit??


If it is anything like the Army over here, then yes,
JO's arses are fair game !

[smujsmith]

I'm not aircrew, so perhaps shouldn't have a dog in this fight, however, I tend to follow the Beagle line on this, regardless of who the Crew captain is, the Pilot in Charge is responsible for the safe prosecution of any manoeuvre or flight profile. Many remember rumours of a C130 landing at the wrong airfield in Turkey, when the Nav was "Harry Staish". ISTR that it was "Harry" who carried the can in that event, but did the bloke in the left hand seat get it wrong ?

Smudge

[Exascot]

Do the Rodneys commanding tanks have to do the driving?

This is a very good point. I should have sat down the back drinking G&T and let a capable Cpl drive :ok:

[Rossian]

.......yet another wigging; from a German colonel this time and gentler.

"the problem with you air force chaps is, you think a helicopter is an aircraft, it's a TRUCK! that's why we have corporals driving them!!"

NATO officers orientation course 1983 Oberammergau.

As an aside it was also the course where the first black US Army colonel in charge of a Pershing deployment was sacked by SACEUR whilst on the course for offering to punch out the lights of the aforesaid German col. and a USN commander and Lt.cdr in the bar at lunchtime.
The trigger was the remark "IGB!? I'll nuke it till it glows" Then the fight started.
On this occasion I had the sense to remember the advice "When the elephants are dancing don't try to cut in" and took my beer to a quieter corner of the bar.

The Ancient Mariner

[oxenos]

smuj "regardless of who the Crew captain is, the Pilot in Charge is responsible for the safe prosecution of any manoeuvre or flight profile. "

Of course he is. But as I said earlier, " A first pilot to a Nav. Captain was responsible TO THE CAPTAIN for the safe flying of the aircraft.

In almost all civilian flying, and some military flying, safety is the overiding consideration at all times.

However, in the case of civilian search and rescue, and much military flying, particularly on operations, risk to safety has to be balanced against the need to achieve the objective. If it were not so, SAR and military ops would never take place. The risk assessment may made be at high level, or by the pilot himself or by a back end Captain

If a pilot (who may be relatively inexperienced) has the authority to overide anything he considers less than 100% safe, whether it is an instruction from on high, or from a back end Captain we might as well disband all military flying

[vascodegama]

Smuj

Your memory is playing tricks. The Stn Cdr was the Captain; rumour was he went down to B Cat and all the others went to E!

[Wander00]

Oxenous - I clearly recall me, young first tour fg off still on a "White" IR, with the sqn cdr, very experienced wg cdr and wartime nav in the back. Flew one of the standard 360 ECM exercises and plot was then for me to fly the boss to Waddington for an important meeting. Cloud base and vis way outside white card limits so offered to fly him to nearby station with better weather. AEO sat very quietly in his corner whilst differences of opinion between fg off and wg cdr ebbed and flowed. Eventually the boss grudgingly accepted my refusal to break the limits on my card and we went elsewhere. Later he apologised in a very gentlemanly fashion. A year or so later when the whole country went out in fog I did break white limits getting into St Mawgan. On return to Watton RR was very gentlemanly in giving me a gentle b@llocking, and buying me a beer, in the same breath.

[H Peacock]

No stick = no vote. End of!

Obviously a single-seat fast-jet man, or just possibly multi-crew who knows nothing about CRM! :ugh:

Spent many hours as captain (training) sat (stood actually) in the middle without a stick. I was happy to give up my direct 'vote' by trusting them to have the stick. By far the best way for them to learn, but they also knew that if I asked them to do something it would happen immediately before any questions were asked.

[Exascot]

The Stn Cdr was the Captain; rumour was he went down to B Cat and all the others went to E!

Was he a justified 'A' or political?

I once did a check ride as a B Cat co pilot with a captain A Cat who anounced that his MDH was 350'. The examiner said where do you get that from. He said he always used 350' for all ADF approaches :cool: He had to maintain his A Cat so on de-brief the examiner said to me you did better than him so you must now have an A Cat :ok: I may have been one of the very few A Cat RHS.

[Sideshow Bob]

Oxenos
particularly when manouevering the aircraft at 200' at night.
Hope you weren't at 200' otherwise you deserved to be on the end of a boll*cking for busting min height at night.

[Brian 48nav]

1968 - tomorrows flying prog' goes up on the board; Staish Grp Capt Merriman ( lovely bloke RIP ) as captain on MCT with AVM Le Cheminant, SASO FEAF, flying as co on famil.
All the Flt Lt hairy navs disappear muttering ' I'm not well etc etc, this is one for the boy'. Well that's what 21yr old Plt Officers are for innit'.


Same happened next day when the night prog' was published. Staish was the most experienced Herc' pilot having done an exchange with the USAF before we got them, but AVM no time on type at all. AVM flew the aircraft with Grp Capt whispering in his ear. I survived!!


Years later I read Le Cheminant's autobiography ( I didn't even rate a mention :{). Having marvelled at his very flat approaches I found the reason was that he was an ex-Sunderland man.


Talking of which, in '73 flying from Lyneham to Marham with Wing Pilot Abe Lincoln ( ex-Sunderlands & Shacks ) on the bunk. Captain, Howard M briefs for approach giving 250' as decision height, 'Any questions ?' says he. 'Yes' say I, 'You're a white card so add 400', DH is 650'.


'I'm using Abe's' he says. 'Not with me on the bunk' says Abe,'Good job the nav' spoke up as you 3 were heading for an E cat'.


Having flown a lot with Abe on 30, he we would have expected nothing less from me - he always expected and got 100%.

[Wrathmonk]

"....offering to punch out the lights of the aforesaid German col. and a USN commander and Lt.cdr in the bar at lunchtime [SNIP] On this occasion I [SNIP] took my beer to a quieter corner of the bar

NATO Courses and liquid lunches. Hoorah! Tell the youngsters today that drinking at lunchtime was allowed and they don't believe you ;)

Obviously a single-seat fast-jet man

Frustrated perhaps but very far from the reality! :E

[Wander00]

I recall during AOCs at a Norfolk fighter control unit Aunty Joan giving Ken Hayr a non-alcoholic beer at pre lunch sippers - reply was unprintable. two such lovely people. Resolved with a glass of the real stuff.

[ExAscoteer]

Smuj

Your memory is playing tricks. The Stn Cdr was the Captain; rumour was he went down to B Cat and all the others went to E!


It's not a rumour but a fact.

We were the first aircraft in to Ankara Akinsi.

The following day, as we were preparing to depart for Incirlik, we were amazed to see the Staish's Albert overfly us inbound to Ankara International!

Oh how we laughed...

[oxenos]

" Hope you weren't at 200' otherwise you deserved to be on the end of a boll*cking for busting min height at night."

To quote Bing Crosby in "High Society", you must be one of the newer fellows.
In the 70's, MOA was 200' day, night, IMC, whatever.

Unless the memory is deceiving me. What were we talking about?

[Sideshow Bob]

In the 70's I was still in junior school lol :ok: (if you really want to feel old, even I've retired from the RAF now).

[ValMORNA]

A couple of incidents re aircraft captains.


Mid-50s, flying from Fayid to Nairobi, the skipper called Nairobi and told them, 'Field in sight.'
'Roger, continue.' (Pause) 'Rafair M****, check your position.'
(Longer pause!) 'Rafair M**, with you shortly' . . as we altered course from Nairobi West to Nairobi International.


Different squadron, carrying a (fairly)SO, the skipper told the crew that the SO was to be addressed as the Captain and informed by crew members of any actions being taken. A while later . . . .
'Signaller to Captain . . .'
'Go ahead, Signaller'
'Signaller to Captain. I am just about to open my meal box and eat a cheese sandwich.'


Well, they seemed funny to me at the time.

[Herod]

In the civil world, the Air Navigation Order says (or did, I've been retired a while) "Nothing in this Order precludes the captain carrying out any actions he/she considers necessary for the safety of the aircraft, passengers and crew". That was carte blanche, but you'd better be able to justify it. Total authority, but that meant total responsibility.

[Exascot]

At the height of The Persian Gulf War I was tasked into Riyadh International to pick up a certain General and entourage and take him to the UK. The Americans in charge of ATC said that I did not have authority to land. We orbited with missiles pointed at us for 1/2 hr before I persuaded them to let us land. I taxied to the Royal Pavilion and closed down. An American Colonel leapt on board and said, 'what are you doing here your passengers are at Riyadh Military'. I very calmly asked the Nav for the tasking file and then burst out laughing in relief - a tasking c*ck up. The Col couldn't understand my reaction, apparently I was supposed to be devastated. 'OK how long to re-fuel, file a flight plan and get over to the Military airfield' - '2 hrs'. 'How long for him to drive over here' - '1/2 hr'. 'Get him a car please'.