Leadership qualities required from a current raf leader

[KPax]

I was thinking to the RAF leaders that I worked with in the 70's and 80's and wonder if the new leadership required different qualities. Remembering Bruggen 77-79 and the passionate, aggressive and dynamic leader that was there then, would these qualities work today.

[Wensleydale]

Much will depend upon the leadership style that is formulated by the business model, procedure and process in force at the time.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

If leadership is now a style formulated by a business model, then the OP has his answer.

[minigundiplomat]

Surely the question should be:

'What management qualities are required from a stakeholder in today's airpower provider'


No?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

'What management qualities are required from a stakeholder in today's customer-facing airpower provider going forward?*
;)

I vote for minigundiplomat's eponymous style!


*Cannot someone get an "issues" in there somewhere?

[Red Line Entry]

I think the nature of our leaders has changed. My experience of the 80s was that, in comparison to today, there was a far higher proportion of senior officers who were little more than outright bullies. It was accepted as virtually the norm.

In the same way that the cultural mores allowed the likes of Saville to get away with what they did in the 70s and 80s, the power of the military heirarchy was so strong that questioning of those above was simply not permitted.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

My experience was the opposite in the 1980's. With the exception of the Scottish Group Captain :yuk:, I would have followed them anywhere.
Maybe I was lucky....

[bridgets boy]

I would have followed them too, increasingly less so after the 90s. Brought to a head when one of them said he would put his family before his job, actually he meant before jeopardising his career for the mere sake of integrity and looking after his boys

[Cows getting bigger]

Fox3, you're soooooo last century. There are no such things as "issues" - there are "opportunities" or, for the less-career minded, "challenges". :)

"Issues"? Here's your P45.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

It's a fair cop, guv.
In my defence, my entire Province lives in the last century. There is almost no crime, no one is in a hurry, and we may not be rich but we're happy. We live on steak, lobster, oysters, chips, strawberries & cream, wine & beer because that's all we have on local farms. :{

[500N]

What about Maple Syrup ???

Or is that in another part of the country ?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Oh yes, sorry. My maple syrup comes from a farm 4 klicks away. Pancakes, proper bacon, sausages..........


I think we are about to offer Costa Rica a chance to join Canada, to guarantee the coffee supply. That should just about sort it!

[Canadian Break]

Fox, would they be issues of the "over-arching" type or the "underpinning" type?:ok: CB (and would we give a flying f anyway). Too many managers and not enough leaders these days in my opinion.

[Canadian Break]

Klicks me dear chap? surely you mean 2.5 miles, or 2.1598 nm for the purists here! :)

[500N]

CB

Look at Society for that.

Firstly, a lot less people in the military and other services where leaders to an extent rose to the top, especially in war and peer respect was often part of it.

So these people are not entering society.

Secondly, all you see are management courses, not leadership courses.

Thirdly, society doesn't want stand outs, they want everyone equal, no winners, no losers and hence leaders maybe don't stand out as much or encouraged.

(Although I notice at schools now they have high achiever classes !).

That's my OH.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I recall a colleague of mine doing her M.Ed, and asking me to help her out with the management & leadership module. After about 2 paragraphs of meaningless drivel (which ran to 200 pages), I cast it aside, poured her a glass of red and said "OK, this is what Leadership really is". Six years later, she is a Headmistress.
My sister did the same as an Admin assistant, and 7 years later she is Head of Communications for a major London Council. And I do not count myself as any better than average in a 1980's RAF context. Almost any of the sensible posters here could, and probably have, had the same effect on people they know.

It's mostly inapplicable theory by people who've never led anyone, and in practice there is no leadership, because fewer and fewer "managers" are given any real authority to exercise any leadership.

p.s. Canadian Break, I'm an engineer by training - those are things you do to bridges, not people.

[bridgets boy]

Fox3,

You are so right, and those of us that had the opportunity of being taught leadership AND Management Science at Sleaford Tech can back you up - except for those of my persuasion and others who sold out, chiselled for higher places at the expense of integrity (personal and airframe, as applicable) and see the mob as a means to a personal end. Outside, they have politicians, bankers, lawyers, and other cadres whose status has diminished. We are a reflection of society...

[Al R]

I spoke with an Asian fund manager the other week; he referred to a PTI.. a pause time incident. Ie; he was doing nothing, clearing his mind.

PTI.. doing nothing? No comment.

[500N]

Not sure if it is management or leadership or just organisation but was having a talk with a teacher and we were discussing emergencies and emergency evacuations.

I related that studies show that those who have served in the military
or other emergency services are far better off at getting out.

Anyway, it turned to fire drills at schools and the problems evacuating children - large numbers and the bedlam that can ensue.

I said why not make it a game, sensible older child at the front, everyone lines up behind them and holds onto them. Then they walk out and everyone follows in a line, nice and orderly and hopefully in control (Assuming only one teacher available).

It was like a light bulb had gone on with the comment, never thought of that :ugh:

[Willard Whyte]

'What management qualities are required from a stakeholder in today's airpower provider'

You jest, but...

[charliegolf]

I think we are about to offer Costa Rica a chance to join Canada, to guarantee the coffee supply, and a World Cup win in due course. That should just about sort it!

Fixed it Foxy. :ok:

CG

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Ah, dost thou mean this...
Canada-Costa Rica Free Trade Agreement (http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/costarica/index.aspx?lang=eng)
Apparently we've had it in place since 2002 - I should have checked :oh:

[Old-Duffer]

Drifting slightly, I was once a party to a discussion on the leadership and management.


The question was posed: 'what is the difference between leadership and management'?


One answer offered was: 'leadership is management where your decision could get somebody killed'.


Regardless of one's view, it can often be quite difficult to define what we mean by the words 'leadership' and 'management'. I have never claimed to be good at either but I have tried to follow a simple suggestion given me at OCTU by a hairy ex-SNCO: 'treat everybody for whom you have a responsibility, with the same consideration as you would hope and expect to receive yourself'. Incidentally, he's the same chap who when I said: 'what should I aim to do on my station', retorted 'keep your f*^CK$+g mouth shut and just listen' - good advice I found!


Old Duffer

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Remember an Army guy who was advised, on leaving Sandhurst, to walk in on his first day at the Regiment and say "What am I doing today, Staff Sergeant?"
Worked a treat. Have used the equivalent myself.

Was asked that as the first question recently at interview and answered "Leadership is deciding where you are going and getting everyone else to follow; Management is how you get there." Not original; Passed with flying colours.

[thing]

Slightly oblique but I'm reminded of the quote by the late great Sir Basil Embry. 'Senior officers should fly high performance aircraft because it's good for promotion and the survivors are worth having.'

[bridgets boy]

Saw this once, apologies for paraphrasing:

Noah saw that it was about to rain heavily, and said: "Let's build an Ark, and fill it with 2 animals of each species" - Management

Noah then said: "Don't let the Elephants see what the Rabbits are doing" - Leadership

[gr4techie]

Lead by example so that others will follow.

Leadership is inspiring others to reach an objective.

[500N]

Bridgets

Sorry, must be having an off day but I don't get this.

"Noah then said: "Don't let the Elephants see what the Rabbits are doing" - Leadership"

[Courtney Mil]

With some very notable and excellent exceptions, leadership is a quality required of JNCOs, NCOs, junior and some senior officers. The same goes for officer qualities. Further on these requirements have been known to be replaced by "Just do what I want." Is that leadership?

As I said, with some notable exceptions.

[E L Whisty]

Management is leadership in the passive voice.

[Old-Duffer]

Now we're drifting into types of leadership (and management).


Occasions dictate that a single style of both L & M will not suffice for every situation.


I teach air cadets leadership and I use the well tried SMEAC approach: Situation, Mission, Execution, Answer questions, Check understanding. I tell them that SMEAC is applicable to almost every task in some form or another and then try to build on this by providing increasingly complex tasks. This naturally leads into the business of Task, Group and Individual needs, replanning, coping with the unexpected, motivation etc.


It can be interesting to realise that the smart, alert cadet is not always the sharpest, best motivated and resilient when the going gets tough. As somebody once said to me: 'I do my airmens (and womens) assessments on Day Four of the TACEVAL'.


O-D

[GemDeveloper]

About the best definition of Leadership I have heard is:


"Inspiring people to achieve things that they didn't know they could do"


Management is providing the resources to support those goals (as others have said).

[Hempy]

500. Do you want the 2 elephants on your ark to breed like the 2 rabbits on your ark tend to do?

Of all the leadership lectures they give at RMC one sentence has stuck with me in regards to being a 'leader worth following'.

"You are afforded a certain amount of respect due to the rank you have attained, the rest you have to earn."

It's why today's 'leaders' mostly fail..they've never earned the respect, they just demand it. Imo.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Heard this one a while ago.
Management is about doing things right.
Leadership is about doing the right thing.

[Exascot]

The old one: His men will follow him anywhere - if only out of curiosity.

[minigundiplomat]

Leadership is having vision and changing the situation, management is having meetings and changing the font.

[Red Line Entry]

I always think that management in the military gets a bad 'rep'. Everyone wants to call themselves leaders, no-one wants to call themselves managers.

Well, £40Bn of public cash does not need to be led, it needs to be managed. The challenge of maintaining airworthiness on aging fleets needs management, not leadership. The need to recruit or sack large numbers needs a managerial decision on how the manpower pipleine is functioning, it doesn't need a charasmatic leader who has no idea of what to do.

IMO, rolling goats such as axing of the Nimrod and Harrier fleets, the carrier and F35 variant debacles, CWS on FJs, and virtually every military cock-up identified by the NAO or the HCDSC over the past 20 years has been caused, not by a lack of leadership, but by a lack of management.

So, while leadership will always be essential when people are involved, here's a lonely 'Huzzah' for good MANAGEMENT!

[Thax]

To paraphrase Field Marshal Viscount Slim of Burma:


Leadership is the combination of obligation, persuasion and example that causes men to do what you want.


Not a bad starter for ten ....

[bridgets boy]

Sorry 500N, blame it on the arrival of Sunday Times Wines quarterly submission...

Should have been the other way round, but at least you noticed! Management is shoving the animals on the ark, leadership is... oh whatever!!

We all know the difference, and we all know when we don't experience either of them enough.

[500N]

I'll throw this one in the mix and am interested in people's comments !

Making a decision, the opposite of which is "paralysis by analysis".

Of which IMHO, no one seems to be able to make a decision nowadays,
be it lack of ability or arse covering.


Good leaders seem to be able to sum up / collate a situation, the environment, situation, people and views
- yes, I believe even Military leaders should take the people and views into account - and make a good
decision pretty quickly.

Good managers ? Well, seems a lot can't make a decision because of the structure.



bridgets
"Sorry 500N, blame it on the arrival of Sunday Times Wines quarterly submission..."

Excellent reason :ok: :O

[Evalu8ter]

RLE
"Managing" the procurement budget also requires leadership. You need to lead your staff in a manner where they accept that real, deliverable, capability is more important than turning your one-ups dashboard green; sadly, this career-limiting quality is lacking and management-bo**ox is used as the gap filler to excuse sometimes woeful "leadership". Unless and until the situation changes (don't hold your breath...) we will continue to manage our way into catastrophes. Management is a convenient shield for those incapable of displaying leadership to hide behind. The bottom line? Management is measurable (did he/she deliver to time/budget) whereas leadership is harder to define and assess - hence why we are replete with managers.....

We do need management to run procurement-but we need leadership and moral courage to go with it....

[MAD Boom]

lack of ability or arse covering.

Quite often, it's both.........

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

One of the reasons nobody makes a decision these days is because the PC crowd have decided leadership is a pejorative term. Part of the problem is the feminisation of many professions (stay with me, this is not misogynist, quite the opposite).
Girls like to reach decisions by consensus, and for historical reasons they rarely receive any proper leadership training. Thus, through no fault of their own, they find it difficult to judge the point where trying for a consensus is not the best leadership option. Most women I know prefer a male boss. When questioned in depth, it normally boils down to their experience of men having a better idea of when to end discussion and make a decision - and not make that decision or reaction to it a condition of continued friendship.
When I started work in a mostly female environment, I asked how many men were on the staff. Two women immediately said "just enough to stop the place getting too bitchy."
Now (hope you're still listening in an unbiased frame of mind), when you provide girls with proper leadership training, including giving them exercises where they are forced to take decisions without consensus, they prove in the long run to be just as good as boys at being leaders. And they are still better than boys at getting consensus where this is possible.
So why the problem? Well, in professions where decisions don't routinely have clear daily evidence of performance (e.g. almost the whole of local Government, which as you've probably noticed is HQ PC Crowd) the mostly untrained women rail against any signs of 'Leadership' - it's a dirty word. They don't have to face the consequences of lack of leadership, but they do have to face the consequences of upsetting people by making decisions the majority don't like. Management is acceptable because it purports to be just the application of 'policy', which is the new word for holy. The worst crime you can commit these days is to ask "why?" about policy.

In summary, if we want more women making decisions (and we should), we need to train them properly. It does work, but it is nowhere near common enough. We should also fix the massive problem where so many managers have targets that don't match the effects of their decisions, but that's a massive can of worms.