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View Full Version : Stapleford A/G - WTF?


tmmorris
27th Jun 2014, 20:42
It was bad enough being lectured on the phone on how to join a standard circuit:

Him: circuit altitude is 1200, that's altitude, altitude...
Me: OK, thanks
Him: altitude... Altitude... Hoping at some point you will say QNH.
Me: err, yes, fine...

But to be ticked off on frequency:

Me: G-XX cross 04L.
Him: A/G service only.
Me: [counts to ten to avoid being unprofessional on the radio] Yes, we know.

was infuriating. I wasn't asking, I was telling him, and the considerable amount of other traffic, that I was crossing the active runway, FFS.

And he kept filling the frequency with more 'advice' ('04L is all grass, if you're lined up on Tarmac you are on the wrong runway' - oddly enough yes, that's exactly what the AFE plate I was looking at told me too...)

Most A/G operators are great, some give them a bad name by pretending to be ATC, but this was a whole new level of annoyingness. I doubt I'll go back.

Dash8driver1312
27th Jun 2014, 20:48
Try actually stopping off there and talking to them. Go in the clubhouse and have a tea, coffee, juice. Remember that their regular traffic are students who sometimes need a guiding hand, and out-of-towners like yourself who know everything.

And yes, keep counting to ten.

Mach Jump
27th Jun 2014, 20:57
Me: G-XX cross 04L.

Perhaps if you had said 'crossing'.....?

04L is all grass, if you are lined up on Tarmac you're on the wrong runway

Seems reasonable 'advice' to me. What was it in response to?


MJ:ok:

tmmorris
27th Jun 2014, 21:00
Perhaps. Flying from an RAF base one gets a bit obsessive about saving airtime.

And I did go for a coffee - I didn't pop in to see the radio operator as I don't think I'd have been polite...

I think what annoyed me was the assumption, without evidence, that I would fail to understand how A/G works, perhaps on the basis that I came from somewhere with full ATC.

I'm sure he is trying to be helpful, I just don't think it's working!

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
27th Jun 2014, 21:00
Sorry state... but there are others like him - FISOs too! It's called being unprofessional.

student88
27th Jun 2014, 21:17
The one (only?) good guy they had working in the radio room at Stapleford has left, sorely missed too. Very welcoming on the radio, professional and extremely proficient.

I think I know who you are talking about, don't worry you're not the only one. Stapleford could be a really welcoming, pleasurable GA airfield to visit but unfortunately its far from it.

thing
27th Jun 2014, 21:39
There's a place that I fly to, which is a great place so I'm not going to mention where it is but there's one guy you occasionally get on A/G and he is barely audible, he's loud enough but he mumbles like he's drunk or on medication. He then always says that he can't hear you and you must have something wrong with your radio in quite an abrupt manner.

Funny how the radio always works when someone else is on A/G. Why do they let these people press the transmit button?

chevvron
27th Jun 2014, 23:11
Being a retired ATCO who now does AFIS and A/G, I sometimes have to stop and think what to say on A/G. I've heard some A/G operators say 'at your discretion' to a pilot advising he was taking off or landing, while I heard a report from a Blackbushe pilot a couple of weeks ago (also ATCO Retd) where the 'Blackbushe Radio' operator (normally 'information') instructed him to 'hold position' when he advised he was lining up because another aircraft had just landed and had not yet vacated the runway.
I occasionally had cause to phone Stapleford Radio when I was controlling on Farnborough LARS North and the person who answered always sounded professional, mind you this was over 5 years ago. And bear in mind it can potentially get very busy in the Stapleford circuit with Kingairs flashing about and simulated IF training in progress.
Also bear in mind when a person passes the exams for an ROCC (Radio Operators Certificate of Competence) and it has been signed by the radio station licence holder, there is no machinery for periodically checking the ROCC holder's competence as there is with civil and military ATCOs and FISOs.

PA28181
28th Jun 2014, 08:07
An irritating, trend I find when phoning airfields for PPR or just info, is the tendency to answer the phone xxxxx airfield "Air Traffic" when I know it's A/G or FISO.

Chevvron this is particularly true of an airfield you know....

I believe an operator MUST give the actual service provided even when answering the phone..

chevvron
28th Jun 2014, 10:08
'Air Traffic' is used as a generic term for an ATSU which can mean ATC or AFIS. A/G is not an ATSU but I have to admit during my short stint as an A/G operator I did use the term.
I suppose I'll be shot at dawn now.

airpolice
28th Jun 2014, 12:06
It sounds like Stapleford have the fanny who used to do Cumbernauld Radio in the same fashion.

Gertrude the Wombat
28th Jun 2014, 13:59
An irritating, trend I find when phoning airfields for PPR or just info, is the tendency to answer the phone xxxxx airfield "Air Traffic" when I know it's A/G or FISO.
Don't care, so long as they say something that makes it clear I've actually got through to someone who knows something about aeroplanes, rather than the catering manager or car park attendant or security guard.

Steevo25
28th Jun 2014, 15:18
My aircraft is based at Stapleford and I must admit I have never heard anything on the radio that I would consider rude or insulting. The circuit at Stapleford can be a little bit challenging if you have never flown there before. The 04 circuit especially. The whole circuit is awash with noise abatement that keeps expanding. I have sat around and heard how many calls come in from the general public every day due to complaints of aircrafts not following the agreed circuit pattern. They do get their fair share of complaints. Also, 90% of the people that are talking to A/G are students at various stages of PPL and beyond.

I am not defending A/G but of the few, out of the ordinary, RT conversations I have heard, there has always been a reason. It is not actually a standard circuit as such, especially on 04L. Overhead joins are at 1800feet rather than 2200feet as you would usually expect. When departing 04 it is a long circuit with lots of places to avoid. There is even a longer circuit for twins. Crossing 04 is usually used at Stapleford on the ground not usually in the air. You usually join crosswind 04 if you are coming from the east.

I suppose I can't really comment as I don't know the whole scenario, but in the 2 years I have had my aircraft there and the year or so before doing my training I can honestly say I have never been upset by A/G.

OhNoCB
28th Jun 2014, 22:17
Chevvron (or someone else who knows more than I), is it improper for an A/G operator to state "at your discretion"? I used to do A/G at a local airfield and occasionally we got pilots visiting who either forgot we were A/G or didn't know the difference and would ask for taxi clearance or even take off clearance. I used to just reply "at your discretion" because it seemed more appropriate than beginning a lesson over the radio as to why they shouldn't be asking. I would never say it to an aircraft who stated that he was "taking off" or "rolling", only the ones who requested it.

ABZ777
28th Jun 2014, 23:55
It sounds like Stapleford have the fanny who used to do Cumbernauld Radio in the same fashion.

I suspect the same guy on Cumbernauld Radio was on when I landed at Cumbernauld one day a couple of years ago. After "runway vacated" I was given taxi instructions to park on the Alpha apron, despite being advised previously that visiting aircraft were to park on the Charlie apron. I taxied to the A as per his instructions, squeezing down the small link between aprons A and B, to then be humiliated over the frequency with "G-XX can I ask what on earth you are doing?". I replied "parking on A as advised, G-XX".

I took this up with him in the tower when paying the landing fee, but he argued that he meant the C apron in the most unprofessional manner. I haven't been back since.

dagowly
29th Jun 2014, 10:54
Only a FISO or Manned air traffic service can give a discretionary. A/G should not. I've come across too many cowboys on the RT both as a current ATCO and recreational flying perspective. Easiest thing to do is remind them of their responsibilities because as soon as they start sequencing, they become liable should an incident occur. If you really aren't happy with the service, put a complaint into the CAA or airfield operator.

mad_jock
29th Jun 2014, 14:42
You should have just told him go travel with sex involved ya fanny.

People like that need told they are a fanny otherwise they go through life not knowing.

Just CHIRP it.

Subject: Stapleford A/G being a fanny.

chevvron
29th Jun 2014, 15:48
CAP 452 specifically instructs A/G operators NOT to use the phrase 'at your discretion'; the correct reply to someone who states they are ready for departure etc is either 'roger, no known traffic to affect' or 'traffic is.........'.

fireflybob
29th Jun 2014, 17:26
This seems to be a perennial problem with various A/Gs, exacerbated at times by some pilots who seem to be quite oblivious about the status of the different levels of "service".

the correct reply to someone who states they are ready for departure etc is either 'roger, no known traffic to affect' or 'traffic is.........'.

chevron, thanks for the quote - am surprised the latter phrase is not "reported traffic is...." etc.

At a field not too far from here I listen to certain A/Gs operators confidently saying phrases like "one downwind and one joining" - how do they know there are no non radio joining and/or someone busting the ATZ? As has been previously said the A/G operator may be laying themselves open to litigation in the event of an accident.

Then again you hear some pilots asking an A/G for "joining instructions" but an A/G is not entitled to give instructions etc.

Then there are the pilots (usually visitors) who ask questions like "Am I clear to join left base" and seem to have little idea how to conduct an "overhead" join.

Gertrude the Wombat
29th Jun 2014, 17:57
phrases like "one downwind and one joining" - how do they know there are no non radio joining and/or someone busting the ATZ?
Same applies whatever the level of service - they can only tell you what they know, and pilots realise this. Even if they've got a radar screen in front of them it might not show an infringing low-level motorised parachute.

OhNoCB
29th Jun 2014, 18:09
CAP 452 specifically instructs A/G operators NOT to use the phrase 'at your discretion'; the correct reply to someone who states they are ready for departure etc is either 'roger, no known traffic to affect' or 'traffic is.........'.

Thanks! Will know that if I ever go back to it. It was never said to someone reporting ready, only ever to the ones requesting a clearance.

fireflybob
29th Jun 2014, 18:11
Same applies whatever the level of service - they can only tell you what they know, and pilots realise this.

Am not so sure that all pilots realise this in this specific case!

ChickenHouse
29th Jun 2014, 18:53
Looks as if we all start to face similar trouble on the radio. The worst IMHO is flying uncontrolled airfields in Germany. Only recently I came to fly to EDXO and heard on 10 miles to the airfield the warning "St. Peter CTR active" of a fellow pilot. That tiny Info field had some old guy doing radio in a way, I almost turned around. Very, very annoying with bull**** like threaten to file official complaint against the pilot of a C172 because he rolled to holding point without "clearance". Aren't there any requirements for refresher cycles for radio ops?

I am a bit surprised of Stapleford. It has been quite a while since I was a frequent flyer to there, but I don't remember radio to be something special or bad.

2 sheds
30th Jun 2014, 08:18
Quote:
CAP 452 specifically instructs A/G operators NOT to use the phrase 'at your discretion'; the correct reply to someone who states they are ready for departure etc is either 'roger, no known traffic to affect' or 'traffic is.........'.[QUOTE]

Actually, it is "no reported traffic" !

2 s

Talkdownman
30th Jun 2014, 12:19
Some relevant quotations:

From CAP413:
Personnel providing an Air/Ground Communication Service must ensure that they do not pass a message which could be construed to be either an air traffic control instruction or an instruction issued by FISOs for specific situations.
An AGCS radio station operator is not necessarily able to view any part of the aerodrome or surrounding airspace. Traffic information provided by an AGCS radio station operator is therefore based primarily on reports made by other pilots.
NOTE: Air ground operators must not use the expression ‘at your discretion’ as this is associated with the service provided by FISOs and is likely to cause confusion to pilots
From CAP452:
Air Ground Communications Service (AGCS)...is not viewed by the UK as an Air Traffic Service because it does not include an alerting service as part of its content.

The CAA are not entirely blameless for the confusion caused. 'Duty of Care' has crept into CAP413 which these days includes examples of phraseology provided by AGCS operators which include provision of traffic information (It didn't used to). This alone muddies the waters and blurs the edges between AGCS, AFIS and ATC.

PA28181
30th Jun 2014, 12:25
As I have said before, there should only be two levels of "service". A/G with operators very clear about their role/responsibilty. Or full ATC. Sorry FISO's you must go.

Talkdownman
30th Jun 2014, 12:35
What surprises me is that so many aerodromes elect to provide AFIS when under The Air Navigation (General) Regulations 2006 Regulation 13 they may not in fact be required to do so. Certainly different aerodrome operators deliver AFIS in many different ways…ie. inconsistently! Last time I looked the following were AFIS units in the UK. Which of these ACTUALLY NEED to provide AFIS?

SCOTLAND (10)

Barra
Benbecula
Campbeltown
Islay Port Ellen
Kirkwall
LerwickTingwall
Oban
Stornoway
Tiree
Wick

ENGLAND & WALES (16)

Barton
Blackbushe
Goodwood
Duxford
Elstree
Fairoaks
Halfpenny Green
Kemble
Old Warden
Rochester
Sywell
Shobdon
Walney
Wellesbourne
West Wales
Yeovil

MoD (2?)

Fleetlands?
Netheravon?

AdamFrisch
30th Jun 2014, 15:22
Another bizarre remnant from long gone days. Get rid of A/G altogether - what on earth is the purpose of it? All it does is confuse. And it doesn't control traffic anyway. On top of this it opens up to little Napoleons thinking they are something they're not. Let the planes themselves coordinate separation over a CTAF frequency. Works fine everywhere else.

Either you have air traffic control or you don't.

PA28181
30th Jun 2014, 15:43
Get rid of A/G altogether - what on earth is the purpose of it?

I have no problem with an A/G operator like Leicester who in the words of Ronnie Barker "I know my place" and others who know their role. I like to know the runway in use W/V "reported" traffic etc. Someone has look at the runway in the morning don't they? collect landing fees, order taxi's.

Better than every arrival pratting about looking for the signal square and the windsock.


A/G or ATC thats for me.....

dont overfil
30th Jun 2014, 19:33
What surprises me is that so many aerodromes elect to provide AFIS when under The Air Navigation (General) Regulations 2006 Regulation 13 they may not in fact be required to do so. Certainly different aerodrome operators deliver AFIS in many different ways…ie. inconsistently! Last time I looked the following were AFIS units in the UK. Which of these ACTUALLY NEED to provide AFIS?

SCOTLAND (10)

Barra
Benbecula
Campbeltown
Islay Port Ellen
Kirkwall
LerwickTingwall
Oban
Stornoway
Tiree
Wick


I thought as the rules stand an Aerodrome FISO is the minimum service for aerodromes with a scheduled passenger service.

All the Scottish fields listed have scheduled flights. On the other hand I agree with you. Other parts of the world manage fine without it.

D.O.

Talkdownman
30th Jun 2014, 20:58
I thought as the rules stand an Aerodrome FISO is the minimum service for aerodromes with a scheduled passenger service.
You are correct, which is one reason I separated the Scottish aerodromes.

13.—(1) This regulation shall apply to every aeroplane registered in the United Kingdom engaged on a flight for the purpose of public transport of passengers on a scheduled journey and to every aeroplane so registered whose maximum total weight authorised exceeds 5,700 kg engaged on a flight for such a purpose otherwise than on a scheduled journey.

(2) For the purposes of article 42(1)(c)(ii), the following manning and equipment are prescribed in relation to aerodromes intended to be used for landing or as an alternate aerodrome by aircraft to which this regulation applies—
(a) air traffic control service or aerodrome flight information service, including the reporting to aircraft of the current meteorological conditions at the aerodrome; etc...

AFIS for those PT flights in Scotland makes complete sense to me. That's also the way it is done in Scandinavia, especially at the remote Avinor fields. But some of those England aerodromes puzzle me. I don't see much evidence of scheduled PT, or PT over 5.7T, at several of those. Why waste the money needed to provide AFIS? AGCS should suffice at such aerodromes. Unnecessary costs will only get passed on to the Users. Neither do I witness AFIS being delivered correctly i.a.w. CAP797 in the case of some of those aerodromes.

We have A/G operators purporting to be FISOs, and FISOs purporting to be ATCOs, and, worst of all, A/G operators purporting to be ATCOs. SARG should get a grip on this muddle, and do a bit of cleansing...

L'aviateur
30th Jun 2014, 21:26
Out of curiosity, is the guy paid or a volunteer? Does he deserve the bashing on here, or just a bit of friendly advice from someone higher up at Stapleford?

Silvaire1
1st Jul 2014, 05:17
Better than every arrival pratting about looking for the signal square and the windsock.

Another acronym worth knowing is ASOS.

Silvaire1
1st Jul 2014, 05:33
It would seem to go without saying that the money used faffing about with people on the ground could be used to provide automated weather, provide for pilot controlled operations, pave the runway so nobody has to look at it every five minutes and move into 21st century.

That aside, the funniest thing about Air to Ground is that it isn't, the name is just a tax dodge. With that irrational regulatory underpinning it's really no wonder A/G doesn't function well.

fireflybob
1st Jul 2014, 20:23
Mind you am surprised the stasi bureaucrats at the EU haven't got their teeth into all this and brought in a requirement for EASA licensed controllers with a hefty fee to boot.

Mach Jump
1st Jul 2014, 21:34
Do most A/G Operators even bother to get qualified now? I know a lot who havn't. :(


MJ:ok:

chevvron
2nd Jul 2014, 01:21
Could you send me a list of their names and I'll offer to give them the exam and tell them I'll tell the CAA if they decline.
Don't forget, an FRTOL does NOT cover you for A/G nor does it exempt you from the exams.

Whopity
2nd Jul 2014, 06:52
Air Ground Radio Operators are just that, radio operators, they do not give clearances, seperate traffic or conduct any of the other ATC functions; they are there simply to pass basic information on the radio in accordance with CAP 452 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP452.PDF).

It seems there are many pilots who are ignorant of their function and continue to request services that are not available. Passing information that is not required, or inappropriate on the grounnds that, if I fill the ether will irrelevant garbage I will be safer, is no substitute for lookout!

Jan Olieslagers
2nd Jul 2014, 09:09
That would make them Ground/Air operators rather than Air/Ground... :rolleyes:

Yes I know it is a mere squibble of words, but the term "Air/Ground" is really but then really unfortunately choosen. Small wonder there's confusion.

As others have said, there is no reason to have any type of service other than "INFO" (no authority) or "TOWER" (full authority). Unambigious, clear, effective.

mad_jock
3rd Jul 2014, 17:47
AIR/GROUND fannys. Would be a better choice of job description and would stop any ideas above their station

Talkdownman
3rd Jul 2014, 20:37
Jock, I've changed me profile for yer...