Learjet down over Germany after collision with Eurofighter

[txl]

A Learjet carrying 2 people went down over a rural area in central Germany after it apparently collided with a Eurofighter operated by German Luftwaffe. The Learjet wreck was found burning on a field near the small town of Olsberg.

A spokesperson for Luftwaffe confirmed the collision. The fighter jet and an accompanying Eurofighter made it back to a Luftwaffe base near Cologne.

No information yet on the fate of the Learjet's pilot and passenger.

Developing.

[WTON]

http://rt.com/news/167888-germany-military-jet-collide/

[Kerosene Kraut]

Learjet is said to belong to GFD. This company does various electronic target display work for Bundeswehr.

Two Eurofighters were intercepting the Learjet during some training mission when the collision happened. The Learjet involved had been chartered for the training. Both Eurofighters could return to Nörvenich and Cologne airports.

[GlueBall]

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article129384887/Absturz-bei-Uebung-mit-Eurofighter-im-Sauerland.html

German paper says 2 persons (crew) aboard Lear during training maneuvers, and that one of 2 Eurofighters had "touched" the Lear. :{

[gpsavd]

Flugzeug-Unglück : Absturz bei Übung mit Eurofighter im Sauerland - Nachrichten Panorama - DIE WELT (http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article129384887/Absturz-bei-Uebung-mit-Eurofighter-im-Sauerland.html)

Seems some target practice went terribly wrong.

[JFZ90]

German Typhoon - Lear Jet incident.

For those that don't know, das Bild is not that reliable, so other than its happened, treat any 'facts' with caution.

Not good news obviously.

Learjet kollidiert mit Kampfjet - Ruhrgebiet - Bild.de (http://www.bild.de/regional/ruhrgebiet/flugzeugabsturz/flugzeuge-stossen-ueber-olsberg-zusammen-36507654.bild.html)

[RAT 5]

Always surprised me when this event happens. We don't know all details, but…a Eurofighter has more sensors, radar and other toys than we'll ever know about. It's supposed to see a fly 40kms and be able to hit it at 10kms. I'm always curious how it can be taken by surprise by I presume another transponder squawking a/c. Surely, in this day and age, high speed a/c do not rely solely on Mk.1 eyeball. Would both not have had TCAS on, plus all the other gizmos of the fast jet.
Can someone of knowledge explain why pre-warning and evasion not take place, if only by the fighter.

[Photomotion]

probably because they were flying together.

[M609]

My bet is that something went wrong during formation flying, and that sensors/ssr etc etc played no part at all..... :sad:

[sitigeltfel]

BBC also reporting...

BBC News - German fighter and Learjet collide - two feared dead (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27979964)

[Seaking8959]

Germann sources state, tha one crewmember of the LJ has been found dead outside of the aircraft. Search for the second crewmember is still on...

[G-ARZG]

Also a thread running in Bizjet forum.....can mods combine ?

[RAFEngO74to09]

BREAKING: Germany: Lear Jet Crashed after Collision with Eurofighter | nsnbc international (http://nsnbc.me/2014/06/23/breaking-germany-lear-jet-crashed-collision-eurofighter/)

Wreckage pictures: http://rt.com/news/167888-germany-military-jet-collide/

[TOWTEAMBASE]

Typhoon in the press lately for all the wrong reasons. Very sad :(

[Una Due Tfc]

The Lear probably had it's transponders on standby anyways, they could have been replicating a highjacking

[JFZ90]

It is too early to speculate, but appears that Learjet was being used in conjunction with Typhoon for training - i.e. simulated unco-op target, perhaps involving VISIDENT etc. If this is the case it may merit mil discussion.

[BRE]

One has to wonder whether it is normal to ask a civilian crew to take on such risks. Why wasn't the military operating the plane with a military crew?

[RAFEngO74to09]

German press reporting the Learjet was indeed from this company which provides air simulation for the German armed forces: GFD GmbH (http://www.gfd-hohn.de/)

http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article129384887/Absturz-bei-Uebung-mit-Eurofighter-im-Sauerland.html

[Seaking8959]

GFD LJ are under permanent charter for the German military acting as target demonstrator. Crews minly consist of former GAF / GNY jet crews.

[The_Observer]

Target towing aircraft / EW

[ThoddyEADS]

One has to wonder whether it is normal to ask a civilian crew to take on such risks. Why wasn't the military operating the plane with a military crew?Actually the learjet was operated by GFD, a daughter of Airbus Military and Defense. GFD does military training missions for the Deutsche Luftwaffe. In this mission they trained to intercept the learjet.

Sources said, the learjet hit one Eurofighter with its wing.

[deefer dog]

I don't know for sure what function the civilian crew were performing in this instance, but civvie contractors have been doing target towing for years.

Are you presuming that civilians might not be as able at performing the task, or are you already thinking of reasons to apportion a likely cause of blame?

[Kerosene Kraut]

Most of them are ex-Mil. It's their job and profession to act as targets for the military. And they have quite a good safety record doing this. These Learjets are even modified to carry specific loads like jammers and such if needed for the mission.

It's not like Mil-ATC suddenly asks a civilian biz jet enroute for some favor or something.

[txl]

According to an agency report, the fighter jets were on a training mission to escort a non-communicating civilian airplane and "guide" it to land (other reports say "force"). During that, one of the Eurofighters supposedly made contact with the Learjet's fuselage and wing. Both fighter pilots are described as "very experienced". They were stationed in Nörvenich.

Also according to the agency report, the Learjet managed to stay in the air long enough to narrowly avoid a village. It crashed only 80 metres away from some houses.

[Denti]

It's not like Mil-ATC suddenly asks a civilian biz jet enroute for some favor or something.

Not in this case, but occasionally they do. Had a few intercepts during airline operation for training purposes that way.

[Kerosene Kraut]

Like I said. It's not the way GFD works.

[LEGAL TENDER]

probably similar to what the Cobham / FRA DA20s do with the RAF?

[FullWings]

There are quite a few things that could go wrong with an interception, especially with more than two aircraft involved. The Lear getting in the wake from one fighter, performing an involuntary manoeuvre and hitting the other would be one scenario...

[Pure Pursuit]

'It is too early to speculate, but appears that Learjet was being used in conjunction with Typhoon for training - i.e. simulated unco-op target, perhaps involving VISIDENT etc. If this is the case it may merit mil discussion.'

In relation to what? Any amplification on the above in terms of military training is not open source.

[John Farley]

FullWings

At last a sensible comment. Well said.

[Kerosene Kraut]

One Eurofighter ripped of it's full bellytank, the Lear lost one engine and possibly one wing. Debris spread over a five kilometer radius.

[Seaking8959]

There had been rumour yesterday concerning a parachute reportedly spotted by some of the eyewitnesses that rose some hope. It seems, that the Typhoon lost it's dragchute during the incident.

[ShotOne]

Are you implying the details ought to be hush hush, pursuit? If so, how very eighties!

On rumours and news it states the detail was a practice intercept and guide (one account said "force") it to land. Typhoon had it's belly tank ripped off, Learjet one engine and possibly a wing. Also brake chute from typhoon fell away leading for a while, to hope of survivor.

Comment from German Air Force Colonel that pilots "had performed remarkable feat in bringing aircraft home". After two fatalities, an odd line to be taking at this point, I suggest. Too early for allocating blame of course, but very much too soon to be handing out medals.

[JFZ90]

Yes, you have a point in that the specific procedures may be operationally sensitive, but if it was e.g. some human factors related issue, seems it could be typical air clues lessons learnt material in the fullness of time.

Too early now of course.

[ShotOne]

"Typical air clues lessons learnt material..?" After two fatalities -are you being serious?

Even more seriously, this was apparently training for intercepting a civilian aircraft - what if it was 400 deaths?

[RAFEngO74to09]

A German Air Force spokesman has confirmed that the Learjet was simulating a "renegade" civil airliner. The German media are reporting that the Saarland Prosecutor is considering whether the Typhoon pilot involved should face manslaughter / negligent homicide charges.

2014 Olsberg mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Olsberg_mid-air_collision)

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.aachener-zeitung.de/lokales/region/ermittlungen-gegen-noervenicher-piloten-nach-jet-absturz-1.855555&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dermittlungen%2Bgegen%26biw%3D1600%26bih%3D760

Learjet kollidiert mit "Eurofighter": Ermittlungen gegen Piloten - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/learjet-kollidiert-mit-eurofighter-ermittlungen-gegen-piloten-a-977037.html)

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.de/news/inland/eurofighter/eurofighter-rammt-learjet-ermittlungen-36515538.bild.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dermittlungen%2Bgegen%26biw%3D1600%26bih%3D760 (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.de/news/inland/eurofighter/eurofighter-rammt-learjet-ermittlungen-36515538.bild.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dermittlungen%2Bgegen%26biw%3D1600%26bih%3D760)

[mach 84]

lear jets have drag chutes too! this is the more likely explanation for that!
if you get hit by an euro-fighter losing a wing and an engine most likely the chute deploys too in this chaos.

[JFZ90]

OK air clues might not be the right media for lessons learnt, but it seems likely that some lessons or e.g. reminders of the importance of procedures may surface.

Obviously the loss of life is tragic.

[exeng]

Out of interest Denti makes a very valid point.

An airline (charter) that I flew for had a number of intercepts from the French airforce. This while in full comms with correct controller. Objections were made and this eventually went to government ministerial level.

Only practising they said - but it did stop. I would presume they were practicing with fully 'live' armaments, though I could be wrong. Been a few practices gone wrong over the years.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Actually the learjet was operated by GFD, a daughter of Airbus Military and Defense. GFD does military training missions for the Deutsche Luftwaffe. In this mission they trained to intercept the learjet.
probably similar to what the Cobham / FRA DA20s do with the RAF?

GFD stands for Gesellschaft für Flugzieldarstellung i.e. "Company for aerial target".
So yes, comparable to Cobham / FRA in UK.

[GreenKnight121]

Germany: Lear Jet Crashed after Collision with Eurofighter | nsnbc international (http://nsnbc.me/2014/06/23/germany-lear-jet-crashed-after-collision-with-eurofighter/)

A private Lear Jet with two on board crashed after a collision with one of two German Air Force Eurofighter jets above the town of Olsberg, Sauerland, in the German State Nordrhein Westfalen, reports local police. The pilots of the two military planes were training the intercept of an out of communication, civilian airplane. At least one of the two occupants of the Lear Jet has been killed.

Oberst (Colonel) Andreas Hoppe of the 31st Tactical Fighter Wing, said that the pilot of the severely damaged Eurofighter was able of returning his jet to the Nörvenich Air Base near the city of Köln while the pilot of the second Eurofighter landed at Köln Wahn.

Hoppe added that both of the pilots were very experienced and had often executed the same training exercise as the one they carried out Monday morning at the time of the crash. The Air Force spokesman said that he had no information about the causes to the collision and that both of the planes impacted at both their body as well as a wing.

The training exercise, said Oberst Andreas Hoppe, involved the intercept of a civilian plane that failed to communicate with aviation authorities, adding that the Air Force usually establishes visual contact with such planes to guide it to one of the nearest air ports to land. The usual distance between the interceptors and the civilian plane, he added, was normally about 500 to 1,000 meters while the second military jet normally would trail the intercepted plane at a distance of 3,000 meters.

Flugunfall V3 (http://www.luftwaffe.de/portal/a/luftwaffe/!ut/p/c4/TYpLCsMwDERvZKVWGpvueoo23SmxCQJ_glGaHr_yolAevJGYgRcohd68kXAt lOAJ88q35TTpNB-TY2BaOAV49GWIZq0lSrfEIqzeGkltZq9NUm-O1rQxHGDGC17R24iIVt0_1Jz0Gv6ZvHNuRO9GtXVkhx-w53z_Ap7xtSs!/)

The Luftwaffe has published a press release of the accodent stating that the leading EF and the Learjet were turning left and than the collision happened. Details have not been released and civil and military aviation authorities investigate. Based on what's released it looks like the Learjet rammed the leading Eurofighter in the turn damaging its wing and fuselage and some equipment on the wing. The Learjet crashed, one crew is still missing.

[HTB]

RAFENG

Just wondering why the Saarland Prosecutor would want to get involved - the accident happened in Nordrhein Westfalen (NRW) to the NE of Cologne (Olsberg, was that LFA 3?, near the Warburg "pimple"), about 250 miles from the Saarland border.

Mister B

[Madbob]

Very sad for all concerned, especially for the families of the two deceased Learjet crew.

Just an observation here, in days gone by this task would probably have been done using a "second line" military aircraft such as a Canberra, OV-10 (Bronco) or perhaps, going back far enough, by a Meteor. All of these aircraft would have been fitted with ejection seats......had they been flying an Alphajet or Hawk their lives could possibly have been saved.

Although such collisions are fortunately rare the risk of such operations is in my view higher than say corporate or airline ops and I question the suitability of some of the aircraft sometimes used to support what is essentially a military flying mission, all no doubt driven by trying to save money not necessarily making the operations safer for the crew. Time for a rethink?

[dogsridewith]

Post deleted and poster banned from thread.

[ATC Watcher]

Full wings, the 2nd Eurofighter was not involved, was not even close during the collision.
But the Lear and the other one were in very close formation for a long period before the collision. Rumor here says the mission was practicing ways for "forcing an aircraft" to land. Well, if it is true, I am sure they will review the procedures...

[RAFEngO74to09]

Mr B,

I took it from this - perhaps the translation is incorrect and it should be Sauerland ? One of the other articles I posted a link to had a local police spokesman quoting an investigation as well.

"Flugzeugabsturz im Sauerland:Staatsanwaltschaft ermittelt wegen fahrlässiger Tötung" [Plane crash in Saarland: Prosecutor investigating pilot for manslaughter] (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/learjet-kollidiert-mit-eurofighter-ermittlungen-gegen-piloten-a-977037.html) (in German). Der Spiegel. Retrieved 24 June 2014.

[G-ARZG]

Anyone else find post 17 offensive (understatement)

[RAFEngO74to09]

G-ARZG,

Actually, yes - totally inappropriate and disrespectful to the professionalism of a military aviator who, let's not forget, managed to bring back his very heavily damaged, asymmetrically configured Typhoon. Imagine what was going on in his head at that time and now. One second he was engaged in a realistic operational training mission and probably having quite an enjoyable day - the next second, 2 fellow aviators are dead and his own world both professionally and personally will never be the same again.

[RAFEngO74to09]

A German Air Force spokesman in Berlin has apparently stated that they believe the Learjet pilot was to blame for the collision - on the basis that the Typhoon was hit from below and lost a tank - "of course we want to wait for the conclusive report, but ...". The Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation stated "pure speculation, one of many possible variations". The Learjet's flight recorder has been recovered for analysis.


Air force blames dead pilot for crash - The Local (http://www.thelocal.de/20140625/air-force-blames-dead-pilot-for-crash)

[Two's in]

For those who don't know, Germany is a nation of laws. Aircraft fly in formation under the rules of the air plus the appropriate sortie briefings. For a collision to occur, in the absence of other failures, somebody breached the rules, however inadvertently. The Germans are identifying which pilot was at fault under the regulatory framework in place. It's the same as a road traffic accident in Germany - somebody will always be held at fault under the rules of the road. The fact that 2 tragic deaths occurred doesn't change the way the authorities will review the accident. It's not personal, it's a legal requirement.

[ShotOne]

These German Air Force comments are exceptionally unusual and prejudicial at this stage when our knowledge of the facts is, to say the least, incomplete. Firstly, issuing a public commendation to a pilot just involved in a fatal collision then releasing an statement emphatically blaming the dead pilots, before even their remains have been found! Had it been the typhoon which went down and the management of the target company acted like this, it would rightly have caused the most furious outcry on these pages!

[BOAC]

Presumably both Typhoon pilots will know?

[ORAC]

A German Air Force spokesman in Berlin has apparently stated that they believe the Learjet pilot was to blame for the collision - on the basis that the Typhoon was hit from below and lost a tank I was the FA when we had a mid-air between a LU F4 and a Canberra when doing a VID.

Late break-away and a very hard pull later the F4 pilot felt a bump and thought he'd flown through the Canberra wake. The Canberra diverted with a Mayday and a ruptured wingtip tank.

Inspection on the ground showed witness marks on the bottom of the F4 wing and horizontal tail and the missile rail pushed back 3-4 inches. The canberra wingtip tank had gone between the F4 missile rail and underwing tank scoring both. An either side or up and both would have been lost.

Lesson? Just because the damage was to the underside/tank of the Eurofighter doesn't, necessarily, make it the Learjet crews fault. Wait for the BOI result.

[exhorder]

These German Air Force comments are exceptionally unusual and prejudicial at this stage when our knowledge of the facts is, to say the least, incomplete. Firstly, issuing a public commendation to a pilot just involved in a fatal collision then releasing an statement emphatically blaming the dead pilots, before even their remains have been found! Had it been the typhoon which went down and the management of the target company acted like this, it would rightly have caused the most furious outcry on these pages!

True. Sadly, this isn't the first example of poor PR handling by German armed forces officials.

Both pilots killed were ex-military aviators.

[Kerosene Kraut]

Rumour: The EF is said to be damaged beyound repair.

[Lon More]

There was (is?) a British company that used to provide the targets for RN and RAF training. Based at Hurn IIRC

[diginagain]

Cobham plc, Lon.

[Lon More]

I had Flight Refuelling in my mind so not so far out.

[diginagain]

Usual Wiki-caveats apply: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobham_plc

[Coochycool]

FRADU (Fleet Requirements and Aircraft Direction Unit) were redesignated 736 Naval Air Squadron last year and moved to Yeovilton as I understand it.

Not sure what the breakdown between them and Cobhams was.

Had a trip with them out of Lossie many moons ago against the Ark Royal.

Lots of fun pretending to be Exocets at 50 feet!

[armchairpilot94116]

IIRC a number of years ago a Learjet freshly hired by the Taiwanese Air Force was towing a target for a SAM test and the missile hit the Learjet instead of the target. Destroying the jet with no survivors.

Not a good idea.

*found a link*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_tug

"Target towing operations are not without risk. On September 17, 1994 a Golden Eagle Aviation Lear 35A was accidentally shot down by a ship of the Taiwanese Navy during a live-fire exercise.[5]"

[exhorder]

If anyone's interested, the preliminary crash report has been released: http://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikationen/Bulletins/2014/Bulletin2014-06.pdf?__blob=publicationFile (in german).

According to this report, the Learjet flew in loose formation with the EF when it executed a left-hand turn, in order to follow the fighter. This maneuver turned out to be too tight, the crew having lost sight of the EF. The aircraft then collided with the EF's underbelly, ripping off its fuel tank and heavily damaging the right hand engine. Subsequently, the Learjet disintegrated in mid-air.

The report also includes some pictures, scroll to page 41.

[noske]

The BFU have published an interim report as part of their monthly bulletin (German only), pp. 30 - 46 in the PDF:
http://www.bfu-web.de/DE/Publikationen/Bulletins/2014/Bulletin2014-06.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

[Basil]

Had a few intercepts during airline operation for training purposes that way.
I was never asked. I'd already considered and the reply would have invariably been negative.

[BOAC]

I believe 'noske' (Post #36) had more in the post yesterday (from the German report, I believe) - which seems to have disappeared. I recall it was said the Typhoon began a gentle left turn, the Lear followed but turned tighter and lost sight of the lead. I do not see any need to 'review the procedures' since a real intercept is unlikely to have studied any 'review'. If the foregoing is correct, it was the Lear that caused the collision, and it would by no means be the first mid-air due to becoming 'unsighted'. The damage (pages 40/41 et al) to the rear of the Tiffy is significant.

Will the report be published in English?

[Basil]

it would by no means be the first mid-air due to becoming 'unsighted'.
Yup. There was one such by Cotty Canberras about 1970.
In a very adjacent JP, I lost contact one day - wee fright :ooh:

[noske]

I believe 'noske' (Post #36) had more in the post yesterdayNo, certainly not me.
Will the report be published in English?Not likely. Your best source for English summaries of BFU reports is usually Aviation Herald, but they don't cover this particular accident (doesn't fit their charta).

Things in the report that caught my eye:


In the AIP excerpt (p. 43) it is suggested to give the "follow me" signal from a position slightly above and to the left ahead of the intercepted aircraft. The pilot of the damaged fighter just states that he was "to the left" of the Learjet (p. 34).
Communication just before the collision (pp. 32-33): Starting at (t-18s) the controller gave a lengthy instruction to the Learjet, which the PIC acknowledged at (t-5s). At (t-10s) the FO said "Can you take over, I can't see him any more", and the PIC replied at (t-2s): "Take the computer, please" ("Nimm mal den Computer"). Said computer would have been a tablet computer that they were carrying as additional navigation equipment (p. 36).

[BOAC]

"No, certainly not me." - sorry for the mis-ident. Someone put a link to the report plus the extra bits and that has 'disappeared'.

Found it - two threads, Mods asleep? http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/542268-german-typhoon-learjet-incident-2.html#post8670137