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Centaurus
18th Jun 2014, 12:37
Published today, the following links from ATSB cover the crash of a Cessna 150 VH-RXM at Moorabbin on 18 February 2014.

Aviation Short Investigations Bulletin - Issue 31 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2014/ab-2014-085.aspx)

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/4907104/ao-2014-023_final.pdf

In the days following the accident there was considerable Pprune reader comment on the circumstances surrounding the event. Accepting that the ATSB report deals with the facts I believe a valuable opportunity to educate flying school operators and their instructors was missed. As part of its reports ATSB include a motherhood statement that says: "the object of a safety investigation is to identify and reduce safety-related risk. ATSB investigations determine and communicate the safety factors related to the transport safety matter being investigated

In this accident the inexperienced flying instructor displayed poor airmanship by permitting a TIF candidate with no flying experience to handle the controls on take off. It appears that the student was uncertain of the use of the elevator and continued to pull back on the control column which is what he thought was normal technique to climb. In the ensuing flurry of activity as the instructor tried to take control, the aircraft stalled and dropped a wing and crashed. The flying school operator changed their rules (if there were any before hand) after the event.

The following extracts from the ATSB report paint a picture leaving readers to come to their own conclusions.

The instructor noted the lowered left wing, and attempted to level the wings by neutralizing the ailerons. Almost immediately, the right wing unexpectedly dropped. The instructor realised the right wing had now stalled and applied and responded by applying left aileron to raise the right wing. By now, the aircraft nose had lowered, and a high rate of descent had developed. Realising impact was imminent, the instructor made every effort to straighten the aircraft and applied left rudder and full power in an attempt to recover.

Judging from the above sequence of events after the pitch up, it appears the inexperienced instructor used a wrong technique in his efforts to recover from a stall. He attempted to level the wings by neutralising the ailerons after the left wing dropped. If the ailerons were held neutral, it follows he must have applied opposite rudder to try to pick up the dropped wing which in turn led to the first part of an incipient spin to the right. As this accident showed, common flying school teaching that a dropped wing is picked up by neutralising the ailerons and skidding the wings level by opposite rudder, is potentially dangerous as it invites a spin. In this case his actions may have caused the right wing to drop markedly. In Cessna aircraft the ailerons are designed to be effective below the stall.

The correct method to recover from a stall with a dropped wing is to simultaneously decrease the angle of attack by forward stick, apply sufficient rudder to prevent the wing from going down further, apply full power and level the wings with ailerons. All this should take no more than 2-3 seconds if performed correctly. ATSB should have commented on the instructors incorrect recovery technique and brought the flying school training under scrutiny for allowing this incorrect stall recovery as standard operating procedure.

ATSB did say the instructor commented that RXM characteristically had a more pronounced wing drop to the right. If that was true, the aircraft was unworthy and should not have been flying. Previous flying instructors and the CFI stand condemned for not recording this defect in the maintenance release and grounding the aircraft until the defect was rectified. Part of the process of certification test flights by the manufacturer's test pilots include a tolerance of no more than 10 degrees of wing drop at point of stall. If the wing drop exceeds that, certification is delayed until the problem is rectified.

Most instructors are aware that some aircraft can exceed that tolerance during stall practice although in most cases the entry into the stall is done at a faster rate than the test pilot is required to do. Stalls in the approach configuration are also part of the certification process with a similar wing drop tolerance applied. However, there is direct evidence that flying school operators are often complacent if an aircraft is prone to a marked wing drop at the stall and even leave the defect in situ in the dangerously misplaced attitude it is handy to have an aircraft on line that drops a wing at the stall for student pilot practice. It is known as practicing bleeding. Some years ago there was one Cessna 150 in the Melbourne area that was known for its severe wing drop at point of stall. The flying school was well aware of this defect and banned student solo flying in it. When CASA airworthiness staff investigated, the aircraft owner quickly removed the aircraft from flying and re-rigged the wings which rectified the problem.

As we have seen earlier, ATSB state in their manifesto ""the object of a safety investigation is to identify and reduce safety-related risk." Well, they sure missed a golden opportunity in their accident report on VH-RXM to say something of flight safety significance about the un-airworthiness of VH-RXM and the failure of the flying school management to ground that aircraft known for its propensity to drop the right wing at point of stall. The ATSB report does not say anything about the failure of previous pilots to write up the wing drop defect in the maintenance release. It should have done so. Too many pilots are actively discouraged from writing up defects in the maintenance release for fear of job security. It takes little imagination to know what I mean. Word of mouth reporting of a defect is not sufficient.

Finally, what authority certified the grade 3 instructor as competent to instruct on stalling sequences when from the ATSB report he lacked knowledge of the correct technique. There is ample anecdotal evidence that the myth of picking up the dropped wing at point of stall with rudder only, is widely taught both on instructor courses and at flying schools in general. That being so, it suggests that CASA supervision of flying school training needs to be tightened.

Centaurus
18th Jun 2014, 14:08
Not to mention you omitted a quote in between you single-looking quotes:


Thanks for noting that omission. It is fixed now. It was my error in transposing the ATSB text to the Pprune page.:ugh:

aileron_69
19th Jun 2014, 09:09
Some interesting points there Centaurus. This touches on something I have long discussed with instructors, and that is, why do they only practice stalls with power off, or at most low power settings? An aeroplane can handle quite differently with full power and low airspeed in the stall for many factors, and from personal experience, I have found that at airspeeds closing in on the stall, I have been at full noise.
As for the whole idea of letting a TIF student have the controls first takeoff, I am no instructor, but I always had things demonstrated to me before I would try it myself.

dubbleyew eight
19th Jun 2014, 09:17
might I suggest that the cessna was flying so slowly by the time the instructor took control that nothing he could do would have avoided the prang.

not that it matters but I don't agree with the analysis by centaurus.

the prang was the result of gross stupidity by the flying instructor.
the instructor should have flown the aircraft out well clear of the circuit and at a reasonable altitude before ever letting the newbie touch the controls.

flossing on about stall recovery technique, wing misrigging etc is to totally miss the point in my opinion. the aircraft should never have been in the situation in the first place.

btw back in the day the picking up of a wing with use of rudder in a slow aircraft was used to build handling skills and controls familiarity. IT WAS NEVER USED during a stall.
gently gently with feeling, make tender love to the aeroplane my boy don't rape it, was the sentiment....and occasionally the comment.

Hempy
19th Jun 2014, 10:12
Wonder if the stude ended up taking up flying after all that.

:D

poteroo
19th Jun 2014, 12:01
Agree fully with UU8. happy days,

Tee Emm
19th Jun 2014, 13:56
In all fairness to the instructor, he was clearly caught by surprise when the student hauled back and apparently froze momentarily on the controls. This left the instructor in an unenvious situation so close to the ground.
When being grilled by investigators after the event it must have been difficult for the instructor to recall every single movement he made in his attempt to recover the situation. There was no mention by ATSB of the specifics taught by the operator of the flying school as to the stall recovery when a wing has dropped. Maybe ATSB never got around to asking because they didn't think it was important.

The OP brought up a relevant flight safety point when the instructor told ATSB that aircraft was prone to dropping the right wing during practice stalling. Was that the instructor's personal experience or had other instructors noted the same thing? By not discussing it further in their report, ATSB seemed to have brushed that off as inconsequential. Nor was mention made in the report as to why the aircraft was allowed to continue flying with that perceived defect and if in fact the defect was already reported in the maintenance release.

Judd
19th Jun 2014, 14:06
This touches on something I have long discussed with instructors, and that is, why do they only practice stalls with power off, or at most low power settings


In my day stall recovery in limit steep turns with full power was part of the syllabus before first solo. Maybe that it is not done anymore in case it frightens new instructors.:E

aileron_69
19th Jun 2014, 14:22
Mr Judd,
I suspect you may be onto something there.

43Inches
19th Jun 2014, 23:29
There are a few issues in this accident that I found interesting;

The way the student was allowed to conduct the take-off has already been covered. Myself and many other instructors have probably done this on thousands of occasions without incident, with good risk management and vigilance it is no more dangerous than when they enter the circuit later for take-off and landing practice.

The take-off was commenced just as (I assume) the sea breeze was kicking in, so whilst only 1-2 knot of downwind when the conversation about the wind with the tower took place, what was the wind at the time and place of the accident. A C150 has very little performance with 2 pob, throw in a low speed and increasing tail wind gradient and it's not going to like it.

There was no mention that the student "yanked" or "hauled back" on the control, it sounded more like he just kept on raising the nose at a normal rate.

Is 150 fpm a good rate of climb?

The report mentions the instructor applied full power when they realised they were stalled, there is no clarification of whether they confirmed full power or had to add power. The way it reads is as if they added power at this point, if so why on earth would you have less than full power on take-off in a C150.

Finally the stall, use of controls near the stall should be coordinated. The report seems to indicate only aileron use until stall was identified then the use of rudder. The initial roll to the left sounds like it was student induced, the sharp roll right was probably linked to stall. Using aileron only to stop the right roll at that point would have caused sharp adverse yaw and led to the situation the instructor observed, I have seen this many times during stalling in 150/152 where students insist on using aileron only to roll level. By the time he was instigating the rudder the nose had already dropped and rate of descent was beyond recovery.

I've never really seen a training aircraft that has a nasty stalling tendency that was not instigated by poor (or intentional) technique. There are some unforgiving types that will not tolerate much out of balance and a severe wing drop will occur. C150/152s are aircraft that will not forgive poor rudder usage and punish poor aileron use near the stall, unlike a PA28 for example which can suffer much torment before it gives up.

A37575
20th Jun 2014, 13:55
Some years ago there was one Cessna 150 in the Melbourne area that was known for its severe wing drop at point of stall. The flying school was well aware of this defect and banned student solo flying in it. When CASA airworthiness staff investigated, the aircraft owner quickly removed the aircraft from flying and re-rigged the wings which rectified the problem.


Even if they were aware of a wing drop report, it is unlikely that an aircraft owner would bother pulling the aircraft off line for a rigging check - unless pressured by CASA.

MakeItHappenCaptain
21st Jun 2014, 04:39
The way the student was allowed to conduct the take-off has already been covered. Myself and many other instructors have probably done this on thousands of occasions without incident, with good risk management and vigilance it is no more dangerous than when they enter the circuit later for take-off and landing practice.

Second the motion.


Finally the stall, use of controls near the stall should be coordinated. The report seems to indicate only aileron use until stall was identified then the use of rudder. The initial roll to the left sounds like it was student induced, the sharp roll right was probably linked to stall. Using aileron only to stop the right roll at that point would have caused sharp adverse yaw and led to the situation the instructor observed, I have seen this many times during stalling in 150/152 where students insist on using aileron only to roll level. By the time he was instigating the rudder the nose had already dropped and rate of descent was beyond recovery.

Tip for newer instructors having difficulty with this;
In a benign handling aircraft such as a 152 or 172, a good way to encourage the use of rudders over aileron to the student is to hand over the rudders only while holding the aircraft into a fully developed stall. Get them to initially start steering the aircraft gently to the right or left, then back the other way. A tommyhawk would be a bit aggressive for this, but sometimes it takes a seeing is believing approach. Discuss with your CFI.:ok:

For the dickywhackers who want to jump on the "that's not how you recover" bandwagon, this is only to lead the student into using rudder to ARREST FURTHER ROLL.

43Inches
23rd Jun 2014, 05:19
I think Judd may have somehow responded to this on the wrong thread;

Using aileron only to stop the right roll at that point would have caused sharp adverse yaw

Maybe on wartime aircraft but not nowadays. However Frise ailerons were designed to prevent adverse yaw and I believe all Cessna singles are designed with Frise ailerons. Sharp adverse yaw should not occur. Especially as Cessna wing design and ailerons are designed to be effective below stalling speed.

I suggest you go to a flying school, hire a Cessna or Piper and play around with the controls. As you roll the wings back and forth see what the balance ball does, it will not stay centred if you don't help it with rudder.

Many trainers have design features to minimise the undesirable further effects of controls, but that is all they do, minimise them. PA28s have almost every design feature under the sun, frise and differential ailerons, washout, it will still slip when rolled into a turn without rudder, just not as much as some other types.

Frise and differential ailerons managed adverse yaw in different ways but their effectiveness will be airspeed dependant, so how much adverse yaw they eliminate depends on speed and angle of attack, probably designed to be as neutral as possible around normal cruise speed to make en-route cruising and navigating less work.

Compared to the efficiency of the rudder at managing yaw these aileron based fixes will increase drag more than needed resulting in more performance loss than if rudder was used correctly. Adding to the point about coordinated use of controls, any large control movement will slow the aircraft further and add to the risk of stall at low speed.

The situation described in the accident is exactly what I have seen when students try to pick up a wing with aileron only, the aircraft gets stuck in a wing low stalled situation almost as if it's moving sideways more than forwards, usually accompanied with a lot of buffet. Ease the nose down, apply a bit of rudder to straighten and away you go.

poonpossum
23rd Jun 2014, 11:54
I have an idea, why not rotate or pick up a climb angle at Vy, if you insist on climbing at that speed, when the aircraft reaches it?

It's always baffled me why flying schools teach to yank it off at Vr, take up some stupid climb out angle and then wait for it to get to Vy WHILE CLIMBING, all the while the stall warning horn is going mental in the background.

Try that in a fully loaded 206 in some 40 degree heat and see how long it takes for you to kill yourself.