Engine off operations

[VH-XXX]

Smart people, where would I find the regs for engine off operations in GA, as in yes or no and when or where and who?

Thanks!

[roundsounds]

Are you talking:
- multi or single?
- instruction or private operations
- to what end?

[VH-XXX]

That's where I'm headed... With or without instructor, private singles. Obviously single charter you are not going to deliberately glide and twins are obvious.

[Tankengine]

Gliding Federation?:E

If you don't want a specific answer sometimes it is best not to ask the question!
Especially from CASA!:eek:

[roundsounds]

I cannot find any specific reference to not shutting down a single in flight, except the aircraft is to be operated in accordance with the manufacturers procedures. A powered glider contains procedures for shutting down, restarting the engine in flight, whereas your typical aeroplane doesn't. You also cannot carry pax when simulating emergencies.

[Arm out the window]

Engine off operations for singles are approved in the event of engine failure, and may be required when curfews are in force at certain aerodromes - Ref: CAR 69

[truthinbeer]

Are you thinking in terms of Pipistrel Virus or Sinus? Prop feathers when engine is switched off.

[Ultralights]

i always thought it was possible, but only by a CFI.

[roundsounds]

Arm out the window, would that be CAR 69, subsection 181?

[roundsounds]

Ultralights - that's an RAAus procedure which has been approved by CASA by having it included in the Ops Manual. You'll find there are a few RAAus things covered by exemptions and/or inclusion in the ops manual.

[VH-XXX]

Yep... RAA is where I was headed.

So it seems in the GA world it's a no-no, however RAA have an exemption to do it only when a CFI is present.

Makes sense...

The Virus and Sinus are interesting as the POH allow it but the RAA say so. In the GA world, I believe that would be ok as it's a motorised glider.

[Tankengine]

Be careful if you think you can operate a motorised glider, engine off, as a GA aircraft.:hmm:

[Jabawocky]

Define "OFF"

And for how long?

[Capt Fathom]

Unless you tell, no one is going to know you turned your engine off! Mums the word! :ugh:

[Homesick-Angel]

Darwin's theory of evolution really does its best work in the world of aviation..

[Dora-9]

Tankengine,

Do you care to expand on this please?

Be careful if you think you can operate a motorised glider, engine off, as a GA aircraft.At my local airfield, we have an operator with Diamond 36's conducting joy-flights; their favorite trick is to shut down the engine on approach and feather the propellor, then declare themselves "gliders" thus gaining priority over all the powered aircraft in the circuit. I've certainly observed them cutting off others on base or final leg whilst using this ruse. While I've always thought this dreadful airmanship (why shut down a good engine in the circuit?) plus an abuse of the rules pertaining to gliders having right of way (they're not really gliders, are they?), are you saying that this is illegal also?

[Jabawocky]

Dora, do they not glide in from from further afield? I have never observed the practise you describe, I should be more observant :ooh:

Do you think this would help us out in the priority of circuit traffic ?:}

[ranmar850]

Not allowed in GA? Hmm, I know we simulate engine-out forced landings at idle, clearing the engine at regular intervals. I have, however, had an instructor actually the engine shut down completely in flight. Doing my Basic Aerobatics endorsement. It was requested I roll inverted (C150) , I complied, whereupon the engine was cut and the question asked, "what do you do now" . I simply rolled right way up, put the nose down a little, and re-started. She commented that it was amazing how many students tried to re-start when inverted, so it must have been a regular test.

[Aussie Bob]

Do you mean ops like this XXX? (http://www.backcountrypilot.org/community/forum/latest/where-did-you-fly-today-697?start=5300#p207092)

(Half way down page if link doesn't open correctly)

[Brian Abraham]

At the pre solo stage one of the exercises done was engine restart in flight (Chipmunk) - early 60's. No starter fitted, aircraft was slowed so that the prop came to a stop, and then nose lowered to note at what speed the prop started to rotate and restart. Seem to remember it taking quite a speed to get the prop moving again. Don't know if it was a required exercise at the time, or if the instructor was just showing what it takes.

[Tankengine]

Dora-9,
I was responding to XXX's comment about operating Pipistrels as motor gliders in "GA" config. I really do not know the answer on engine out ops but would think that extended engine out ops would come under "gliding" and therefore the GFA. (And for good reason):=

The Dimonas you mention are operated under GFA so engine out ops are no problem. I have never seen their ops but know one of the pilots, definitely a glider pilot.:ok:

The way I see it there are three "groups" you can fly aircraft with in Aus:
(More if you count hang gliders, para gliders, weight shift microlights and balloons)

1: CASA, VH registered aircraft (including SAAA and warbirds), need PPL+ and maintenance release by Lame or owner builder/approved person signed daily by licences pilot.

2: RAA, "number" registered aircraft, flying approvals and maintenance approvals by RAA. (Apologies if terminology wrong, I know little about the RAA)

3: GFA, VH registered gliders/motorgliders, approval to fly and maintain through GFA dispensations from CASA. (GPC etc, daily inspection, annual inspection etc)
When CASA finally gets part 61 through there may be licence changes.

To fly or sign out the daily inspection on the maintenance release of a glider/motorglider you need to do it through GFA. Obviously you can then launch (glider speak for take-off:E) , and at some stage of flight shut the engine down and glide.
Motorgliders come in various types from the two seat side by side "travelling MG" to what looks like a pure glider with retractable motors that may be piston, electric or Jet!:E

Can you shut down the engine if the "motorglider" is registered and flown under situation 1 or 2?:confused:

I don't know but would get legal advise before I did so!

You cannot jump into a GFA licenced and maintained VH motorglider and fly or sign it out just on a GA licence.:=


I am sure there must be something about stopping/starting engines inflight as part of GA,RAA training written somewhere?:confused:
(Which was XXX's initial question)

[john_tullamarine]

Engine off ops ?

Is that, for instance, when glider tug pilots finish launching for the morning, turn the noise off, and go wave soaring for an hour or two prior to landing off the final launch .. ?

Maybe folks don't do that sort of thing any more ?

Not that I'd know anything about such things, of course .. although I have it on good authority that other folks have done such things in the way distant past on wave camps ...

[Tankengine]

We do need a "like" button!:E:ok:

[rjtjrt]

Brian Abraham wrote At the pre solo stage one of the exercises done was engine restart in flight (Chipmunk) - early 60's. No starter fitted, aircraft was slowed so that the prop came to a stop, and then nose lowered to note at what speed the prop started to rotate and restart. Seem to remember it taking quite a speed to get the prop moving again. Don't know if it was a required exercise at the time, or if the instructor was just showing what it takes.

I had the same demo, both in a Chipmunk and a PA-28, many years ago.
John

[Brian Abraham]

turn the noise off, and go wave soaring for an hour or two prior to landingNow there is a cheap, cheap method to build time. Could it catch on?

[Ultralights]

maybe engine off is not permitted in GA aircraft because.... shock cooling? :}

[Dora-9]

At the pre solo stage one of the exercises done was engine restart in flight (Chipmunk) - early 60's. No starter fitted, aircraft was slowed so that the prop came to a stop, and then nose lowered to note at what speed the prop started to rotate and restart. Seem to remember it taking quite a speed to get the prop moving again.I remember this! As we rolled in, the instructor saying something like "at the speed we'll need to restart the engine any fool can pull the wings off, so you should have no trouble". Hmmm

[Pinky the pilot]

Is that, for instance, when glider tug pilots finish launching for the morning, turn the noise off, and go wave soaring for an hour or two prior to landing off the final launch

John; Way back in around 1965 I think, The National Gliding Competitions were held at Waikerie and just after launching one day, using Tiger Moths, Austers and one Chipmunk IIRC, the thermals really got going overhead the airfield.

The late Helmut Appitz had just refuelled his Tiger Moth and happened to look at the sky and thought that it would be fun to have a glide himself. So he took off in the Tiger, climbed to 2,000` and shut down the engine and commenced soaring.

Stayed up for well over an hour and climbed to over 5,000` if I remember correctly.
(I was only 11 at the time.)

[Kharon]

JaT # 22 –"Is that, for instance, when glider tug pilots finish launching for the morning, turn the noise off, and go wave soaring for an hour or two prior to landing off the final launch .. ?"

Well I'm shocked; shocked do you hear! The very idea that tug pilots would contemplate taking such a appalling risks – the risk that they may have fun, learn something of aerodynamics, develop confidence and learn to trust their own judgement – simply horrifies me...

Without at least 25 approved pages in the manual, clearly defining how, where , when and in what sequence these highly dangerous activities may (in certain circumstances) be conducted; supported by blood chilling reminders of 'strict liability' penalty clauses and strict monitoring of the operation under ADSB; these, humble, joyful pursuits of piloting are strictly verboten: I'm sure you know this.

We will arrive tomorrow morning 0830 sharp, with a search warrant to make absolutely certain, that we are totally satisfied that no one has any fun: ever..

The very idea – pilots having fun.....indeed..(has to stop)..

[Andy_RR]

We will arrive tomorrow morning 0830 sharp, with a search warrant to make absolutely certain...

Don't bother to get out of bed so quickly Kharon. Just send a fax by 1630. That'll fix the problem...

[john_tullamarine]

Could it catch on?

Oh, indeed ..

the risk that they may have fun

It was often observed that one of the best ways to have fun with one's clothes on .. involved SuperCubs on wave camps ... of those other dreadful chaps of my acquaintance who would do such wicked things .. C* was a master at wave soaring ... but, then he was an experienced sailplane fellow.

as an aside ... heading back from Berridale to Camden one time ... I didn't recognise the voice on FS as being one of the gliding folk ... took me quite by surprise when he asked, rather quietly ... "How's the mag drop going .. ?"

[dubbleyew eight]

one of my mates stood a bollocking at the flying school I learnt at.

"you've been out for over 2 hours, why does the tacho indicate 45 minutes? where did you land? you aren't authorised for outfield landings yet"

what he'd done is climb out over the murray river where the thermals were strongest, shut down the engine and glided around in the thermals for over an hour. done a mid air restart and flown back.
he took the bollocking for an outfield landing because to admit what he'd done would have seen a bigger bollocking.

[truthinbeer]

Do you mean to fly like this? Engine off from 5 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J9v433C0nM
The plane is a Rans S-7S.

[truthinbeer]

This bloke does some thermaling in his Taylorcraft, lands and parks in front of his hangar all engine out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-u-MCDi7Gk

[VH-XXX]

So you're telling me that when he have landing comps at my local airfield I'm not meant to shut the engine down on downwind ? :{

[Ultralights]

What about an entire flight with the engine off?

take off to landing..

jeQP-H_31JQ

[truthinbeer]

That vid is nothing...the tricky bit is making sure you can jump in after the initial push. :rolleyes:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

maybe engine off is not permitted in GA aircraft because.... shock cooling?


Maybe it isn't a problem. Done quite a bit during multi-engine training and that doesn't matter. Just not done after a full power application (ie when engine is HOT) and zero thrust is used until temp returns.:E

[LeadSled]

At the pre solo stage one of the exercises done was engine restart in flight (Chipmunk) - early 60's. No starter fitted, aircraft was slowed so that the prop came to a stop, and then nose lowered to note at what speed the prop started to rotate and restart. Seem to remember it taking quite a speed to get the prop moving again. Don't know if it was a required exercise at the time, or if the instructor was just showing what it takes.

I had the same demo, both in a Chipmunk and a PA-28, many years ago.It was in the syllabus. Having a prop stop for real was a not uncommon occurrence during slow flight or aeros, for anything with a Gypsy engine, largely because normal landings were full stall, these were impeded if the idle speed was too high. We still demonstrated it in any training aircraft, and the student had to demonstrated to proficiency an air re-start.
As I recall, many students were very reluctant to push the nose down hard enough when the aircraft was a PA 28.
Tootle pip!!

PS: Used to have a girlfriend up NW NSW, in the days when I had a "big tank" (24Gal.) Chipmunk. With SW winds, with luck I got about 90min. at idle, IAS 120 or so at 8-10,00ft. over the western slopes, and it made a two sector trip, instead of three.
The New Zealanders are the experts at using the lee waves and rotors, came back from Wanaka to Wellington one afternoon in an AC500A, for about two hours at 13,000 ft, we had an IAS top of the green, engines at idle, gives great NAMP.

[jdeakin]

At the pre solo stage one of the exercises done was engine restart in flight (Chipmunk) - early 60's.Just in case anyone is wondering, a V-Tail Bonanza prop can be stopped in-flight, and will windmill again at about 90 knots.

(Mine had the Robertson STOL kit, which reduced stall speed by about 10 knots. It was very difficult to stop the prop, had to fly fully stalled, below 55 knots or so. I don't know if you could do it without the STOL kit.)

John Deakin

[triadic]

Engine restart in flight was in the syllabus when I learnt to fly many moons ago. Knew one instructor that would make students conduct at least one dead stick landing during training in order to demonstrate difference in elevator effect during the flare - he always had a long runway to play with. As I recall demo was very effective as elevator control with prop stopped was very different.

[Centaurus]

we have an operator with Diamond 36's conducting joy-flights; their favorite trick is to shut down the engine on approach and feather the propellor, then declare themselves "gliders" thus gaining priority over all the powered aircraft in the circuit

That is a classic example of an operator that needs to be shut down (no pun intended). Obviously CASA is not aware of the practice otherwise heads would roll and quite rightly so.

Those of us who learned to fly on Tiger Moths (no starter motor) both in the RAAF and aero clubs, were given dual instruction before first solo, on diving to get the prop turning. This was because during aerobatics and stalling practice the Tiger Moth prop was known to stop. On one occasion, this time in a C150, I had the prop stop 1500 ft while practicing gliding with a student. It happened quite subtly with a gradual reduction in RPM before I realised it didn't look right as we could see the individual blades of the prop as RPM decayed.

We prepared to ditch alongside a couple of small boats at the mouth of the Werribee River but after a couple of primes used the starter motor to get the engine going at 500 ft. Turned out a previous instructor had the same problem this time at 3000 ft during stalling, but decided to dive and got the prop windmilling and started. Unfortunately the newly graduated instructor elected for job security reasons not to report it verbally or write it up in the maintenance release. That decision could have cost us wet feet or worse.

[Judd]

Using aileron only to stop the right roll at that point would have caused sharp adverse yaw


Maybe on wartime aircraft but not nowadays. However Frise ailerons were designed to prevent adverse yaw and I believe all Cessna singles are designed with Frise ailerons. Sharp adverse yaw should not occur. Especially as Cessna wing design and ailerons are designed to be effective below stalling speed.

[flywatcher]

Used to do intentional engine shut down in flight in a single at a couple of airshows in the 80's and 90's, with departmental approval, and not venturing above 500 feet at any time. Good fun

[Brian Abraham]

Used to do intentional engine shut down in flight in a single at a couple of airshows in the 80's and 90's, with departmental approval, and not venturing above 500 feet at any timeNot forgetting Bob Hoovers Aero Commander aero shows sans engines. One time where CASA deserves a thumbs up, courtesy of Barry Diamond, who gave him approval when the FAA had grounded Bob.

[flywatcher]

I followed Bob's performance. From the sublime to the ridiculous!