The Drover - Question.

[parabellum]

Was the Drover capable of a two engine ferry?

[chimbu warrior]

I have never flown one, but I doubt it.

As I understand it, performance was far from startling even when all 3 were running.

Even when retrofitted with the O-360 Lycomings it seemed to perform at a level that avoided whiplash by a wide margin.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The fact that a number of Drovers crashed following the failure of one propeller suggests that the answer to your question is NO!

Dr :8

[tail wheel]

DHA-3 Mk. 2 Drover: 3 × Gipsy Major Mk-10 4-cylinder inverted engines, 145 hp (108 kW) each
Empty weight: 4,000 lb (1,815 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 6,500 lb (2,950 kg)

One could contemplate how 2,950 kg defies gravity with 3 x 145 HP operating? I'd imagine with one dead the other two would successfully take the aircraft to the scene of the crash. Only 20 built, many crashed.

Maximum speed: 137 knots (157 mph, 253 km/h)
Cruise speed: 108 knots (125 mph, 201.4 km/h)

Wow! A hot rocket! :ok:

[Capt Casper]

Lots about it here
de Havilland Australia DHA-3 Drover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Australia_DHA-3_Drover)
Apparently the Mk1F and Mk2 had fixed pitch props.
I suppose if the wing engines were going and the C/L prop was in the boot and the headwind for take off was about 50 knots and the runway was very long it may have been possible to get away with a short ferry!

[Jabawocky]

There is a Lawn ornament at YCAB and I dare say there it will stay, even with them Lyc's on it.

TW....you paint a really glowing sales brochure for them :}

[Pinky the pilot]

Was the Drover the a/c referred to in not so polite circles as `The Chunderbox?`

Seem to remember my late Father referring to an early a/c by that description.

Taily; You may know.

[PLovett]

Another one sits on a pole outside the old Connellan hangar at Alice Springs.

[allthecoolnamesarego]

But it looks cool!

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu65/coolnames/drover1.jpg (http://s634.photobucket.com/user/coolnames/media/drover1.jpg.html)

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu65/coolnames/Drover2.jpg (http://s634.photobucket.com/user/coolnames/media/Drover2.jpg.html)

[PLovett]

Another fine example of Australian aviation design and initiative. :hmm:

[On eyre]

Ozaggie would probably know the answer to the original question.

[Seagull V]

All any one might want to know about all of the Drovers and more here GEOFF GOODALL'S AVIATION HISTORY SITE (http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/drover/drover.htm)

[roundsounds]

The DHA3 Drover has 3 engines, cause it needs 3 engines!

[parabellum]

Thank you everyone! I'll take that as a 'No' then! :)

[ozaggie]

The Drover..... With no load, ie: pilot and minimum fuel, wing engines only, would fly. Not good assymetric, however, but who is? I recall a pilot being given his endorsement on Kangaroo Island way back in the never never, who suggested that, upon right wing ( number 3 ) failure, would like to hand over, being told, "Get on with it, this is the assymetric part of the endorsement"! Jim Hazelton, RIP, was there three days later in a Comanche, spare engine in the boot, to get the old girl going again. T'was ADN, ex TAA, from memory, had Lindeman Island, and "Capt ?? Angus or Horrie ?? on the side. Salad days indeed. Another note. When men were men, and women were glad of it, a certain aircraft captain, with a friendly cohort aboard, attempted to launch out of Yorketown on a sunny day, bound Kangaroo Island. By fair means or foul, the lack of power indications from number 2 Lycoming (in this case) were not detected at start, or for indeed, any of the takeoff roll. On completion of the groundloop at the end of the strip, the ever intrepid aviator reached into the breast pocket, and addressed his passengers with, "Anyhow, Have a Winfield" Hope this helps solve the mystery of Drover engine out performance.

[Jabawocky]

three tiget moths in formation.

Combined good and bad points it seems :eek:

[ozaggie]

Quite right Jaba, but a typically nice airframe to fly, from a 16 yo point of view. Heavy, solid, but forgiving. It was de Havilland, after all. I wonder if Squirrell or Wheatland have anything to add. Cant ask Jim......

[ozaggie]

I cant really have flown it, it only had one control seat.... Didn't it? :)

[Jabawocky]

Sadly JH would be the man to ask but.....nothing is forever. :sad:

[ozaggie]

Nothing sad about it Jaba. Blokes like JH and my old man left us great memories and experiences, which we can all reminisce about, and enjoy. I celebrate their lives, mentorship, and the odd cuff up the side of the head! I doubt anybody will ever think the same of me, and i dont wish for it.... I respect them for their sponsorship. Another name from the past....Des O'Driscoll, anybody, Nah, I'll start a new thread!

[On eyre]

Ozaggie either start that new thread or have another red - Boston Bay Shiraz preferably. Cheers.

[StallsandSpins]

DHA-3 Mk. 2 Drover: 3 × Gipsy Major Mk-10 4-cylinder inverted engines, 145 hp (108 kW) each
Empty weight: 4,000 lb (1,815 kg)
Max. takeoff weight: 6,500 lb (2,950 kg)

One could contemplate how 2,950 kg defies gravity with 3 x 145 HP operating? I'd imagine with one dead the other two would successfully take the aircraft to the scene of the crash. Only 20 built, many crashed.

Maximum speed: 137 knots (157 mph, 253 km/h)
Cruise speed: 108 knots (125 mph, 201.4 km/h)

Wow! A hot rocket!

I think it was originally designed as a simple and rugged replacement for the DH 84 dragon for flying doctor work. as bad as it's performance might seem it was an improvement on the DH 84:ok:

Went for many a ride in the back of VH FBC as a kid with Squirell and youngie. It made quite a sound with with "beating" of the three lycomings if they were a bit out sync. Interesting and unique machine!

[tail wheel]

Taily; You may know.

Steady on - I'm not that old! I was at school in the 1950s and in the Land of the Unexpected in the 1960s to the 1980s.

The first DHA-3 Mk. 1 Drover took to the air at Bankstown Airport on 23 January 1948 piloted by Brian (Black Jack) Walker, DHA's chief test pilot.

And Black Jack is no longer here to ask, although he'd fly anything (he had 136 type endorsements.) Black Jack was also the Test Pilot for and flew all 49 Australian built Canberra bombers.

The Drover was intended to be a DH84 Dragon replacement. The Drover would have a robust air frame, let down by being grossly underpowered with the original Tiger Moth engines. Even the Drover Mk. 3 with three Lycoming O-360-A1A engines (180 HP?) would still lack power.

[Feather #3]

Seemingly the only current Drover driver around at the moment, a few comments might be appropriate?

1. Ozaggie's surmise is probably correct, but not with me driving, thanks.

2. Having had 2 "precautionary shutdowns", she flies ok on 2 engines. Better if it's the centre engine failed as there's no drag from the rudder [85kt cruise{?}], but sits at 80kt with the centre and an outboard going.

3. It is NOT 3 Tiger Moths in close formation, but Chipmunks! The engine is the DH Gipsy Major 10 Mk2. Having refamiled the aerodynamicist and production manager with the olde girl, they had wanted to put American engines on her, but post-war cashflow [NOT] and British heritage won the day.

4. From the gent who was the Flight Test Engineer looking over Black Jack's shoulder, the DH variable pitch [two position; Fine/Coarse] prop was ok until it shed the odd blade causing two crashes. Not due to the engine failure but cutting through the side of the cockpit and disabling the pilot!!

5. Probably the most illuminating fact from the aerodynamicist [and these guys took some convincing to go for a quick circuit!:confused:] was when he asked how she flew as she's unstable.
I'd sorta worked this out, but I asked how Black Jack determined stability [given that FAR certification was a long way off in 1948!] and suggested maybe trim out and count to 10. "Yep, that's about right" was the answer.

So, there's some food for thought.

G'day ;)

PS The reason she didn't go so well with the Lycomings was the added 2,000lb of takeoff weight!!

[parabellum]

Maybe three PT6s next time around? ;)

[StallsandSpins]

here is what David Squirell had to say,

In regard to the engine out performance of the Drover, the mark 3 Lycoming engined version, would fly happily on two and just maintain height (straight and level only) on the front engine only. There was a height loss during manoeuvring!

In the gypsy engined version, I lost power on the front engine just after take-off from Albury. The vibration was so great that I had to reduce power to idle. After avoiding Monument Hill, I managed to coax it to four thousand feet. Considering from this altitude I would be within single engine range of airports on route, I continued the ferry to Bathurst.

In both of the above incidents, the aircraft was lightly loaded.

[Capt Fathom]

prop was ok until it shed the odd blade causing two crashes

I seem to recall a DCA chap who had lost half a foot after a Drover shed a blade? Fred Knudson?

Or am I on the completely wrong track here?

[aroa]

Interesting to read all about what happens engine/s out wise...now !!

As a sprog I was along on a ferry flight of VP-PAG Air Melanesae Drover Mk 3 with pilot/engineer Barry Davis (anyone know if he's still about) in 1968.
Twas tops to sit in the little single cockpit and survey the wide blue Pacific when driving it towards the destinations, Tontouta and Pt Vila.
Barry did all the tricky stuff, take-off and landings, Brisbane Tontuta, Magenta and Vila and was OIC ferry tank switching. Hence the long goes up front on the major legs..:ok:
From memory TAS was 112 kts at 7500 Seemed very stable in the crz and gentle manoevering and all 3 Lycs did their thing admirably. We all arrived safely at Vila.

New Hebrides then it was, run by Brits and French Condominium /Pandemonium government and the Drover was the Brits answer to the Do 28 that rounded out a bit high and broke its back. I did notice that the French pilots drank wine with lunch, as is their custom, before heading out island hopping... 80cm between throttle and bottle?

Alas VP-PAG didnt last long... a brake problem? ground loop? whatever. it took to the bush somewhere and is probably still there as a house or storage shed. Anyone know?

[roundsounds]

Aroa, unfortunately Barry left us a few years ago. He was a great engineer and not too many people knew of his flying qualifications and abilities. In his Sydney based years he was really only known as an engineer, I was fortunate enough to do a few of his flight reviews and it was only when I browsed his log book and licence did I learn of his earlier flying history. Barry was a very capable pilot and engineer.

[aroa]

Aroma ?? No smell here...its CAsA that stinks.:mad::mad:

Barry was also well versed in the sound of round ones, as he once worked as an engineer on a survey B17 in the Arctic and had some interesting anecdotes about that. And a few other adventures as well.
RIP Barry. Well lived.
I bet he has his toolbox with him.

[tail wheel]

Capt Fathom

On 16 July 1951 the third Drover built (registration VH-EBQ in service with Qantas), crashed off the coast of New Guinea (in the Huon Gulf near the mouth of the Markham River) after the centre engine's propeller failed. The pilot and the six passengers on board were killed. As of August 2011 this was the last fatal accident suffered by Qantas. At the time of the crash the aircraft was only ten months old.

The prototype Drover VH-DHA operated by the Australian Department of Civil Aviation was ditched in the Bismarck Sea between Wewak and Manus Island on 16 April 1952. The port propeller failed, a propeller blade penetrated the fuselage and the pilot was rendered unconscious; the ditching was performed by a passenger. On this occasion the three occupants survived the ordeal to be rescued.

A third aircraft (VH-EBS, also owned by Qantas) suffered a propeller failure while still on the ground in September the same year.

Is the VH-DHA ditching the DCA incident you were thinking of? I didn't know Fred lost part of his foot? Been twenty years since I saw Fred, I guess he's passed away now?

The loss of VH-EBQ is still shrouded in the mystery of what happened to the consignment of gold that was rumoured to be on board.

Aroa

Bob Paul often laughed over the fact he wanted to register Air Melanesae in the Condominium as Air Condom but the Brits wouldn't allow it. I seem to recall it was originally New Hebrides Airways?

[Stationair8]

There was a Drover based out of Berwick, Tyabb or YMMB around about 1987 or so, seemed to do the airshow circuit for a while.

[Dog One]

There was one on King Island for a period in the 70's, not sure of the rego, but remember being asked to divert to overhead Three Hummocks Island to see if the aircraft was there.

[StallsandSpins]

There was a Drover based out of Berwick, Tyabb or YMMB around about 1987 or so, seemed to do the airshow circuit for a while.


That was VH FBC a mk3 version (i think it was the last drover built)with the lycoming engines. It was purchased in NZ and ferried to Aus by David Squirrell and Brett Young. It remained at Berwick for a couple years before being sold to the powerhouse museum. i believe it is now on display at the museum in bankstown. As a kid I was fortunate to go for many a ride in this aircraft when it was at berwick.

[Hempy]

Capt Fathom

On 16 July 1951 the third Drover built (registration VH-EBQ in service with Qantas), crashed off the coast of New Guinea (in the Huon Gulf near the mouth of the Markham River) after the centre engine's propeller failed. The pilot and the six passengers on board were killed. As of August 2011 this was the last fatal accident suffered by Qantas. At the time of the crash the aircraft was only ten months old.

The prototype Drover VH-DHA operated by the Australian Department of Civil Aviation was ditched in the Bismarck Sea between Wewak and Manus Island on 16 April 1952. The port propeller failed, a propeller blade penetrated the fuselage and the pilot was rendered unconscious; the ditching was performed by a passenger. On this occasion the three occupants survived the ordeal to be rescued.

A third aircraft (VH-EBS, also owned by Qantas) suffered a propeller failure while still on the ground in September the same year.

Is the VH-DHA ditching the DCA incident you were thinking of? I didn't know Fred lost part of his foot? Been twenty years since I saw Fred, I guess he's passed away now?

Think there's some confusion.

VH-DCA

Ditched in sea 100 miles from Wewak, New Guinea. During an over-water flight from Wewak to Momote, Manus Island, the port propeller sheared off in flight and penetrated the cockpit. DCA pilot Clarrie R. Hibbert's foot was severely injured and passenger DCA inspector Tom Drury took over the controls for a controlled ditching. Drover sank. The three occupants in an emergency dingy were picked up next morning by Qantas Catalina VH-EBD, which landed alongside them at sea.

[Hempy]

I recall a pilot being given his endorsement on Kangaroo Island way back in the never never, who suggested that, upon right wing ( number 3 ) failure, would like to hand over, being told, "Get on with it, this is the assymetric part of the endorsement"! Jim Hazelton, RIP, was there three days later in a Comanche, spare engine in the boot, to get the old girl going again. T'was ADN, ex TAA, from memory, had Lindeman Island, and "Capt ?? Angus or Horrie ?? on the side. Salad days indeed

"Angus Nicolson"?

I think this aircraft is still airworthy and owned by Charlie Camillerei in Bathurst

[Capt Fathom]

Or am I on the completely wrong track here?

Sorry Fred! Wrong foot!

[cac_sabre]

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3896/14282599010_0120e917e5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/nL7465)

FBC arrival at Jandakot, I don't remember the engine problem, it looks ok in the picture

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3913/14489362233_4d0ddf7e05_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/o5nLAe)

[hiwaytohell]

I saw Bruce Towers ferry VH-ADN (Gypsy 10s I think) with the centre engine inoperative around the late 70s. Seemed to get off the ground OK and the old girl still got along at about 90kts.

[patagonianworelaud]

"There was one on King Island for a period in the 70's, not sure of the rego, but remember being asked to divert to overhead Three Hummocks Island to see if the aircraft was there."


Too right there was, operated by one of the original Dodgy Brothers.


I also was asked to look for it, this time on Trefoil Island, where it had landed with a bunch of YMKI scouts when it ran out of light to get to Wynyard. They simply set up camp and departed next morning at first light. No plan, and it didn't carry a serviceable radio - like I said, one of the original Dodgy Brothers.


In the meantime there was a local charter operation that was subjected to regular surveillance by the then DCA, as was everybody with an AOC. Not having one meant no surveillance.

[pithblot]

Even the long runway at Trefoil Island is too short and rough for most twins, so the Drover must have been pretty capable in that regard. Austers and 185s were often used on Trefoil, and 206s when the strip was slashed and smooth. (And the Mutton Bird rookery didn't extend into the strip.)

That said, didn't a Drover come to grief on Trefoil in the 70s, ended up, I think, in a shed in Wynyard?

Always thought a Twin Pioneer would have been useful machine around the Hunter Group.

[tail wheel]

Twin Pin - the "Flying Oil Spot"?

Probably would, but the crew would need a tent and a box full of cut lunches to get there - provided they carry enough oil for the Alvis Leonides 531 radial engines!

:} :}

Good machine for short strips but very dated now.

[Fris B. Fairing]

pithblot

The Trefoil Island Drover would have been VH-FDS (http://www.qam.com.au/aircraft/drover-fds/VH-FDS.htm)

Rgds

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Trefoil Island has claimed many aircraft over the years.

One of the old Heron skippers used to tell the story about the brand new C207 and a brand new CPL being sent down to do the mutton bird season, to show the locals how to do it!

Unfortunately it ended in a bent airframe, damaged ego, an unhappy insurance company and a hefty bill left unpaid!

Didn't Schutts have a Drover on line or for sale in the early 1970's?

[prospector]

There was a Drover operating for Mercury Bay Airservices doing a scheduled run I believe from Whitianga to Mangere, with other stops as required enroute. The main driver's name was Dave ????. Was back in the middle seventies, appeared to be a fairly well patronised run for a few years.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

When DH(A) did the design work on the Drover, was it based around using any components from the Dove?

Was the production run designed around only twenty or so airframes, or was planned for a larger production number?

[Flt.Lt Zed]

Prospector.
The Mercury Bay Drover I believe was ZK-DDD. flown by Dave Wyborn. Drovers fate unknown. Dave moved on to ATC Rotorua and Auckland.

[Stanwell]

tail wheel,
You are so unkind.
re the Twin Pins and their Leonides, they weren't THAT bad - compared to, say, Wright 3350 aircraft.
"Fill 'er up with oil and top up the gas, will ya?"


I also, would like to hear how much (or little) the Drover had in common with the Dove.




p.s. Twin Pin VH-EVB is still going strong.

[Brian Abraham]

I also, would like to hear how much (or little) the Drover had in common with the DoveFrom GEOFF GOODALL'S AVIATION HISTORY SITE (http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/drover/drover.htm)

Chief Designer Bill Downes acknowledged the parent company’s DH.104 Dove design provided the basic concept from which the Drover evolved

"Basic concept" could mean anything I guess, although I'm sure if Dove components were used it would have been mentioned here.

de havilland | 1948 | 0562 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1948/1948%20-%200562.html?search=drover)

Other references in "Flight" say the Drovers structural design was based on Dove principles.

[LeadSled]

Twin Pin VH-EVB is still going strong.

Folks,
And Sy has enough spare parts, including a spare aeroplane, to keep it going for ever.
Tootle pip!!

[prospector]

Flt.Lt Zed,
Thanks for that info.

[Stanwell]

LeadSled,
Not to mention a collection of Alvis Leonides.
The magnesium alloy prop supply is a worry, though.
One can hear them sizzling after being wetted.


Brian, thanks for the link to Flight archives re the Drover.

[tail wheel]

That would be one of the two Twin Pins that was at Coolangatta 20 years ago. I recall the covers over the tyres to strop the rubber rotting from the oil drips! :}

Where is the remaining Twin Pin now?

An amazing STOL aircraft.

[Lancair70]

Fred Knudsen is a name I havent heard in a long while.
I didnt know he'd lost part of his foot though. I knew he'd had an ejection resulting in a broken back, the reason he was a fitness fanatic. He competed in triathlon events and cycled to the airport every day. Unfortunately I had only a few flights with him as my instructor but I learnt a lot from those flights and from talking to him. Im not 100% but surely he's passed away by now.

[Stanwell]

Taily,
AFAIK, VH-AIS was parked on Bradfield private airstrip (Lockyer Valley, QLD) 3-4 years ago looking a bit neglected.
A bit of a shame because she'd had a bit of money spent on her some years back.


Sy would be sure to know the current state of things with AIS.
I'll make a point of asking him

[Stanwell]

Re my last, I had a brief chat with Sy and he confirms VH-AIS is still sitting at Bradfield strip "rotting away".
In view of it having had over a million dollars spent on its most recent refurbishment, that's a real shame.
I understand she's jointly owned by Air Atlantique and a Qld. resident.
Hope that helps.


Re the Drover Mk3's tailplane dihedral mod, I wonder if that helped with the directional stability problem. I'm told they used to 'wander' quite a bit.
Anybody know about that?

[pithblot]

Thanks Fris B.

Any idea about the gate guard outside the aviation museum in Alice Springs?
I think it's painted in RFDS colours (or FDS colours?) but was not used by them in Alice.

Thanks for the input on the Twin Pin folks. Good thread drift :ok:

[Hempy]

Thanks Fris B.

Any idea about the gate guard outside the aviation museum in Alice Springs?
I think it's painted in RFDS colours (or FDS colours?) but was not used by them in Alice

The Drover on the pole at CAAM is VH-FDC. It was originally with the RFDS, but based at BHI. Interestingly it is adorned with 'John Flynn', but I'm pretty sure that was FDR.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

A few thoughts on the Drover from the JT OFG - Old Fliers Group....

Editing Courtesy of Steve Rogers, Co-ordinator OFG.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHPP5pYQgac

Cheers,
And if you are in or near JT on the last Friday of the month, any month except December, around mid-day upstairs in the RACWA lounge, for a get-together, a beer and a meal.....:ok:

[Aye Ess]

VH-FDC.....my painting....

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a401/alan_spears/droverscan.jpg (http://s1032.photobucket.com/user/alan_spears/media/droverscan.jpg.html)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And some more thoughts from Capt Harry O'Neil - again at the JT OFG meeting....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf7daeKdi5c

And edited by Steve Rogers.
Cheers Steve...:ok: