WE177 from Sea King!

[ShotOne]

Several decades ago some RN chaps were explaining to a sceptical RAF type (me) how their helicopter was nuclear capable. Imagine my surprise when a trip to Hack Green secret nuclear bunker (well recommended if you're in the Crewe area) reveals this wasn't just dark-blue bar talk.

How did this work in practice and was there any chance of survival for those lucky enough to have been selected for such a mission?

[Just This Once...]

Sea King - meh. A somewhat smaller helicopter was also used…

http://nuclear-weapons.info/images/we177-wasp.jpg

[NutLoose]

Wessex and wasp wasn't it :)

[Wander00]

Cannot see that performing a LABS manoeuvre

[Yellow Sun]

Which Optask was it that detailed OSOR\ESOR?

YS

[Navaleye]

IThe 600 pounder. Quite a load for a Wasp.

[Pontius Navigator]

Sea King would not have had a survival issue as release speed, yield selection and weapon mode would give safe separation.

A Wasp was a far sportier proposition but still just feasible, they said.

YS, at the time I think it would have been Opgen as Optasks were later. Opgens Romeo and Whiskey strikes a cord.

[Navaleye]

The 600 pounder. Quite a load for a Wasp.

[anotherthing]

Having served on Lynx for a short spell with some hairy old Wasp pilots I understood it was a one man job - pilot only, due to weight and that it might involve a swim back!!

[Wander00]

I say back to the catapult and slingshot....................

[Phoney Tony]

Also, note doors on wasp removed to save weight!

Always wondered how the 2-man principle was enabled in ops with single crewman aircraft.

I think the Optask ASW had the Spec Wpns instruction for standoff ranges etc.

There was also an Optask Nuc, I think.


BEWARE BEWARE. DUSTBIN DUSTBIN.


Happy days.

[ScrewballScramble]

For those of us who were post-"Nu Labour" and only heard about the WE177 being chopped up, the single man options were considered "post-launch/post-authorisation"??

[Willard Whyte]

Anything that could carry a backpack is nuclear capable.

M388 Davy Crockett Operational Test - YouTube

[PapaDolmio]

Having served on Lynx for a short spell with some hairy old Wasp pilots I understood it was a one man job - pilot only, due to weight and that it might involve a swim back!!

At least the water would be nice and warm.

[MAINJAFAD]

Operation Swordfish in 1962 saw a 10-20 kT nuclear depth bomb tipped ASROC detonated 198 meters underwater less than 4000 meters from the ship that launched the weapon. The weapon exploded 40 seconds after impacting the water, the resulting spray dome was 3000 ft across and reached a max height of 2100 feet around 16 seconds after detonation. If the helicopter dropping the weapon was already moving at the drop point, it would have very likely outrun any weapons effects that broke the surface.

EV5q_mlhaiM

[NutLoose]

Always wondered how the 2-man principle was enabled in ops with single crewman aircraft.

Well the Jag was 3 man principal right up unto launch then single man crew. So was in effect single man, though in theory they couldn't launch until authorised.

[ORAC]

"Dustbin, Dustbin, Dustbin" - "Beware, Beware, Beware!!!"

[Yellow Sun]

I think the Optask ASW had the Spec Wpns instruction for standoff ranges etc.

There was also an Optask Nuc, I think.

Those ring a bell. I do recall that it was proposed to include those details in the Optask that never was; the Optask MPA. that would have made life simpler.

YS

[Sandy Parts]

Optask MPA? But what would I as an R4 have spent the pre-brief doing if it wasn't trawling through all the other Optasks to get the info we needed ?:p I mean, I couldn't have got the brews in, that was the third Wet's job:E

[Bengo]

And wasn't it a PITA to load on SK and Wasp. Only two options were available for use in ASW (DH and DL???) but you had to go through and test every bloody mode including all the fixed wing ones. Took hours.

On the Wasp it was loaded on the diagonal so a physical PITA as well, albeit not much worse than torpedoes.

Lynx was much easier. Only the two options to test and then throw it up on C-type with MACE, pointing forward and all easy to get at.

Never loaded a Wessex.

N

[Lightning Mate]

"Always wondered how the 2-man principle was enabled in ops with single crewman aircraft."


The Nuclear Safety Committee was persuaded that the use of HF satisfied the requirement as far as the Jaguar was concerned, including recall capability.


We never got it to work in Germany, so we accepted that, once released from the HAS, we would be going all the way to the target.

[newt]

Seem to remember the HF was only useful for listening to Radio Two on a long transit to Deci! It was never questioned whether we would go to the target once released but it was certainly not for the faint hearted as we all knew there would be little left to return to!:ok:

[Lightning Mate]

Wotcha newt.

[Pontius Navigator]

And wasn't it a PITA to load on SK and Wasp. Only two options were available for use in ASW (DH and DL???) N

In no particular order:

DH - Depthbomb High Yield
DL - Depthbomb Low Yield
LW - Laydown Water
LL - Laydown Land
GP - Groundburst Primary
GA - Groundburst Alternate
AP - Airburst Primary
AA - Airburst Alternate
RP - Retarded Airburst Primary
RA - Retarded Airburst Secondary

This is the correct and full sequence from left through clockwise to the right.

[MAINJAFAD]

Thanks for that PN. An interesting web site with lots of photos and info on the WE.177 and other British buckets on instant sunshine can be found at nuclear-weapons.info (http://www.nuclear-weapons.info/vw.htm). The WE.177 section has photos of most (if not all) of the aircraft types trialed with the carriage or release of the weapon.

[ShotOne]

Thanks for the translation, pontius. Interesting answers but some of the may as well be written in binary.

Some shocking reminders of just how dangerous the thinking was during Cold War. I appreciate that swapping a Wasp and a Subbie for a SSBN would be a good deal. As someone amusingly pointed out, at least the water would be warm...but two "Davy Crockett" nuclear strikes to support a company level advance? Their boots would have been glowing!

[John Farley]

Normal Harrier pylons were removable but on the SHAR the requirement to use the WE177 meant the inboard pylons were non-removable so that the wiring to the store did not have a break at the wing/pylon interface.

[D Icing-Boot]

2-man rule for the single pilot Wasp was upheld by the Helicopter Controller (HC) in either a surface ship or a dipping helicopter (Wessex 3 or Sea King) running through lengthy challenge/response checks between controller and attacker, whilst also directing the Wasp to the correct release position. Quite a busy time and practised ad nauseum in the simulator! Appropriate Stand-Off Ranges were calculated taking into account windspeed and direction, and escape instructions were given to the dropping a/c (which could also have been another Sea King or Wessex) to try and give it a survival chance...

[Pontius Navigator]

Any single pilot operated aircraft only paid lip service to the 2-man principle.

Once alone he can enable or disable the system. Even a 2-crew aircraft like the Buccaneer was not immune, although it was probably safe from an unauthorised release.

I once monitored a crew where the Nav got all the correct light reactions to the check list but ended up with the weapon safe and not armed. The simulator had side-by-side seats so the pilot intervened. As the aircraft was tandem that crew failed the check.

[Pontius Navigator]

I have amended my post above to show the proper sequence and all 10 weapon delivery and yield options.

When WE177B first entered service only LL was authorised for selection and we understood the radar was not operable at that time. Later we were given one target where the DGZ was in the bottom of a ravine and the attack track on the normal to the ravine. It would have been impossible for the aircraft to descend to 500 feet and deliver the weapon and getting out again would have been impossible too. We told the crew to use RP. Now whether that would have worked we have no idea.

[OafOrfUxAche]

Hack Green secret nuclear bunker (well recommended if you're in the Crewe
area)


Beadwindow!

[david parry]

Operation Rhino on the Wasp flight :mad:

[500N]

Oaf

A sign exists to the "secret bunker" on the road to it that says, wait for it:-

"Secret Bunker" ! :rolleyes:

[Willard Whyte]

Hack Green (http://www.hackgreen.co.uk)

[kaitakbowler]

Interesting place, Hack Green. When I visited there was a 177 in the foyer, and a video of a Wasp on 177 release trials, however I suspect the most interesting part of the complex is in those lower floors locked to public access.

PM;)