Al Qaeda takes control in Iraqi city

[ShotOne]

Islamist group ISIS have taken control of major Iraqi cities of Mosul and Tikrit. Army and police mostly done a runner. "Informal request" for US air and drone strikes from Iraqi govt. Given the pages and pages that have been posted with details of various GW missions, I'm kind of surprised it hasn't attracted any comment here.

Where to from here? Answers on postcard to Pres. G W Bush (ret'd)

[ORAC]

Remind me again who pulled the troops out....

G9Z7tdukQuo

Middle East Chaos (http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/06/11/middle-east-chaos/)

[onetrack]

It's a shame there's no font named "sarcasm" ...

http://oi60.tinypic.com/140k8s3.jpg

[Thomas coupling]

You've just insulted Al Qaeda! ISIS are NOT AQ...They had a massive bust up with AQ about 2 years ago. AQ fell out with them because they were too Barbaric! [This includes on the spot fines for breaking the Islamic Code (on the spot public beheading or shooting)].They are extremist Islamists intent on only ONE thing: an independent state straddling Syria and Iraq.

They are a ruthless mix of thugs led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi who has recently adopted organised military strategies designed to take on a weakened Syria and Iraq.
The worry for the West is that this group is acting as a magnet for anyone from the rest of the world who wants to fight in a Jihadist struggle. Thus their numbers are swelling enormously - out of control - and spilling over into neighbouring countries perhaps.
It needs to be decapitated immediately....(a tsate of its own medicine perhaps).:E

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

No Thomas,it is you who is missing the point entirely. Any culture which is this violent and fails to use half of its population (women) will fail economically. Just leave them alone, and cut off the oxygen of oil money. The sooner the west is energy-independent, the better.


Looks like Kurdistan will soon exist!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27809051

[skydiver69]

Looks like Kurdistan will soon exist!
BBC News - Iraqi Kurds 'fully control Kirkuk' as army flees (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27809051)

Which will no doubt impress both Iran and our NATO allie Turkey.

[Hempy]

I reckon it's all going beautifully over there, or at least to 'plan'. I think the Israeli's are going to start feeling a bit gyped one day though.

I've said from the start that regional destabilisation was the end game goal. 'If they are killing each other they are not killing us'. Iraq was the perfect choice..Dictatorial, centrally located, Secular, and in the bad books already after the Kuwait adventure (also providing a free beachhead 13 years later).

All 'we' had to do was walk in, lop the top off the ants nest, destroy any political and military infrastructure (next best thing to bombing them all back to the stone age...do it figuratively instead), and then just let them at each other. There was a reason Iraq once had a long term (read 'successful') hard-line Dictator...THEY NEEDED IT! They'd all have killed each other without him.

Oh. Hang on..

Throw some support to opposing sides occasionally to keep the fires stoked, add Syria, Iran etc into the mix to keep them occupied, and the short to medium term terrorist threat at home is significantly reduced. Long term is TBA. However it turns out, I'm tipping Israel would like Saddam back..

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Yes skydiver, Turkey will be able to join the fun then as well. NATO will not be involved, as legally it will be an internal problem.

Hempy - don't forget the mullahs want to live in the stone age.

[glum]

But let us also not forget that there are thousands (millions I assume) of people living in those countries who don't want further war and bloodshed. Mostly women I suspect who're really rather fed up of their sons and husbands being killed, of being denied education and respect, of being treated like dirt.

I think the allies have lost less than 10,000 servicemen throughout the entire middle eastern conflict, whilst it is reported that 120-130,000 civilians have died.

Warmongering for our own ends is one thing, but let us not tarnish all those living in that area with the same brush.

[Hempy]

Hempy - don't forget the mullahs want to live in the stone age.

And thats 'good' too, because while they are living in the stone age and fighting each other with rusty old AK's, RPG's and PKM's they AREN'T organising themselves together to form the ability to amass some REAL military hardware, and really become a threat.

Seriously, if the gloves really came off one day, the whole middle east could be turned into smoking glass pit in a heartbeat. They can sting at the moment, but they can't run with the big dogs and return that favour, not now and not for the foreseeable future.

We took their dictator away, they don't want Democracy, and no one faction is strong enough to cement power (and once in 'power' likely wont keep it for any length of time). There is too much disharmony inside their religion.

Saddam was the only organised 'threat' in the whole region, Iran aside (but it was too hard to get to) - perceived or actual no matter. Who is a 'threat' now?

[Hempy]

p.s despite any lip service, the US (and by extension her allies) does what the US does for the US NATIONAL INTEREST. The mothers and peace loving folk you mention are NOT in the national interest...aka 'tough luck'.

[effortless]

I wonder what would happen if NATO forces were demobbed, sent home without wages or work and allowed to keep their weapons?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

To a large extent, the only issue the US (and for that matter the rest of us) really need worry about is Islamic extremists getting hold of buckets of instant sunshine - Pakistan is the Mammoth in the broom closet.

[Boudreaux Bob]

I am getting to the point that what happens in Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/Bahrain/Qatar/Iraq/Syria/Yemen/Somalia/Nigeria/Afghanistan/Pakistan/Dafur/Sudan/Mali/Egypt/Jordan and any other place inhabited by radical Islamists should be a Spectator Sport for the United States.

If we just simply write off that part of the World and make nice with Canada, Mexico, and South American Oil Producers then We would be far better off. Perhaps that would then cause us to focus upon becoming Energy Independent and we could eliminate all those entanglements that come with our presence and relations with those countries that are embroiled with this Islam thing.

Western Europe would have to make nice with Mr. Putin and form up a nice friendly coalition with the Russians and gain reliable access to all the Energy Resources they have.

That would leave China and Japan to deal with the Islamists. I would place my bets on the Chinese in the successful outcome of that.

[dctyke]

Any comment Mr Blair?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

make nice with Canada
Pipeline approval, please! You know it makes sense.

Meanwhile, back at the UK ranch,
BBC News - UK rules out taking military action in Iraq (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27809922)

[NutLoose]

Handing out weapons to everyone, you will be back to immediate post war.. Looks like the US might be getting embroiled again.

[Heathrow Harry]

what Iraq needs is a strong leader with strong military connections who takes no s*** from the religious

unfortunately we hanged him a few years back.......................

:(:(

[Lonewolf_50]

Harry, I beg to differ.

Maybe Iraq needs to break up. Maybe, like Yugoslavia, it is an artifact of WW I that is long past its expiry date.

See the book published in 2006 called "The End of Iraq."

Some interesting thoughts about American efforts leading, perhaps unwittingly, to the establishment of an independent Kurdish homeland, made by someone familiar with the area.

[NutLoose]

Iran has entered Iraq to assist the Iraqi Government..

[Lonewolf_50]

WTF?

Must check breaking news, thanks for the tip, Nutloose. :eek:

[MPN11]

Oh, unhappy Iraq (and others). My simple (and undoubtedly wrong) solution is for everyone else to just let them all (Syria, Iraq and Iran) get on with it, and establish SunniLand, ShiaLand, KurdLand and LooneyLand. If there's anyone one left alive to populate a completely dysfunctional ****-land with zero resources, they can get on with it.

Syria, Iraq and Iran can happily fragment back to the Dark Ages ... That's where they seem to want to be. Same for some 'Stans, and a fair few other semi-Nations, actually.

Let us remember that all these 'countries' were actually just lines drawn on maps (mainly by the British) in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. They're not, and never have been, fully functional entities ... unless there was a strong dictator to make it so.

And please spare us any Obama/Blair flashes of inspiration. :=

[Robert Cooper]

Being reported here that three planeloads of Americans are being evacuated from a major Iraqi air base in Sunni territory north of Baghdad to escape potential threats from a fast-moving insurgency.

A former senior Obama administration official say that means the American training mission at the air field in Balad has been grounded indefinitely.

Bob C

[Boudreaux Bob]

Nutty,

Do you mean Iranian Shia Muslims have crossed their common border to assist Iraqi Shia's against Sunni Insurgents and Sunni Islamist Terrorists?

The two groups have been fighting since 632 so this is nothing new except the way they are armed and equipped and perhaps funded by OIL MONEY.

Had we simply subjugated them and actually stolen their Oil all those years ago when we found how Allah had blessed them with such mineral wealth, perhaps all this could have been avoided.

[MPN11]

Hahahahaha :ok:

And Somali input registered?

[Lonewolf_50]

The further south and the further into more 'shia' areas these ISIS folk go, the more trouble they'll have. They are in mostly neutral to friendly turf at the moment.

Those predicting the fall of Baghdad need to take a chill pill.

[Robert Cooper]

Iran has deployed an elite unit of its Revolutionary Guard to help the Iraqi government take on ISIL, the Sunni militant group that has seized several areas in the northern part of the country.

Two battalions of the Quds Forces are already making progress in their fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant, or ISIL, the Wall Street Journal reported. The militant group took control of Saddam Hussein’s hometown of Tikrit on Wednesday, but Revolutionary Guard and Iraqi troops overtook 85 percent of the city on Thursday, Iraqi and Iranian security forces told the WSJ.

Bob C

[Robert Cooper]

It's interesting that the US delivered the first of 36 F-16 fighter jets to Iraq a couple of weeks back, and earlier in March we provided Iraq with some 100 Hellfire missiles as well as assault rifles and other ammunition. In April we sent more arms, providing Iraq with 11 million rounds of ammunition and other supplies.

What we don’t know is how many of these have fallen into Al Qaeda/ISIS hands (we do know that at least one Iraqi Black Hawk chopper was captured during the rush for Mosul, and was seen flying over Mosul). PBS Frontline reported that the same ISIS militants we armed in Syria have crossed the border and are now fighting in Iraq...

Bob C

[Boudreaux Bob]

I am so comforted to know the Obama Regime "will not do anything stupid"!


Americans being evacuated from Iraqi air base as militants advance | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/12/americans-being-evacuated-from-iraqi-air-base/)









Like we can believe the statement and the Record of the Obama Regime when it comes to critical decisions like this.

[NutLoose]

Iran vows to combat 'terrorism' in Iraq - Middle East - Al Jazeera English (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/iran-vows-combat-terrorism-iraq-2014612113247864941.html)

You do get the feeling it would be better to stand back and let them kill each other off and then take on the "winner" The US will be wondering where it all went wrong, the last thing they will want is Iran in Country, especially after pouring all the money into the Country. The people I feel sorry for are those people that are struggling in the northern cities to have these bunch of nutters descend on them.

[Boudreaux Bob]

I am so glad Obama has pivoted to Asia and has decided the Middle East is of little importance anymore. Can you imagine if he was paying attention to the Middle East how messed up it would be?

http://www.foreignpolicyi.org/content/obama-administrations-pivot-asia

[NutLoose]

Perhaps one of the worst fears now is they are well funded having relieved the banks in Mosul of funds

The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Shams (Isis) has become the richest terror group ever after looting 500 billion Iraqi dinars - the equivalent of $429m (£256m) - from Mosul's central bank, according to the regional governor.



Mosul Seized: Jihadis Loot $429m from City's Central Bank to Make Isis World's Richest Terror Force (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3166330/posts?page=13)

You can fund a hell of a lot of terror with that, regardless of the rest... Do you think Iraq would be better off changing the paper currency to prevent it being used Worldwide?, after all they must have done it post Saddam, it then only becomes toilet paper, though they did secure gold as well.


https://missiongalacticfreedom.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/iraqi-dinar1.jpg

[tonker]

"Mission unaccomplished"

[Rick777]

There have been several posts complaining about Obama and his lack of action in Iraq. I'd like to hear what the policy geniuses on here think he should do. Nuke em all and let Allah sort it out? Just kill a few hundred thousand more? Send the army back in and get a few thousand more Americans killed for no good reason? What are you suggesting?

[West Coast]

What are you suggesting?

When we had some leverage over Nouri al-Maliki, the President should have pushed him to include the Sunni in the government along with treating them better in general. It wouldn't have eliminated current events but the impact wouldn't be as great

[rh200]

When we had some leverage over Nouri al-Maliki, the President should have pushed him to include the Shiite in the government along with treating them better in general.

Umm I think you man Sunni.

There have been several posts complaining about Obama and his lack of action in Iraq. I'd like to hear what the policy geniuses on here think he should do.

There's most likely not much he can do now that won't be messy. Before it was easy, a couple of semi permanent American bases out in the desert, out of site out of mind in the Sunni areas would have done wonders.

The fact is, nothing extremely spectacular is happening at the moment, the Sunni areas where always going to be problematic. As I have always said, these are generational issues, and you have to maintain some resemblance of stability for several generations for stability to take hold.

The ****es and Kurds make up around 80% of the population, they have the manpower if they take the gloves off to deal with the Sunni. Frankly if they used the same tactics the Sunni where using it would be all over. It comes down to fear and consequences. At the moment the locals fear the reprisals from the Sunni extremist more.

At the end of the day the Iraqi army is mainly full the wanna bee's. The best fighters the Kurds and ****es keep to themselves. What that means is in potentially hostile territory, you have a not very well trained and equipped force confronting extremists without any real backup. This means they where always going to run, its called self preservation.

All what was needed, would be some well equipped backup, out of site and mind to have kept this from happening, and not f#$% with Syria in the first place. If you look at any large western city, and a few thousand armed terrorists manage to infiltrate, I can guarantee what will happen, the police would run. The local reservists if they didn't get leadership would too. So frankly its no different.

What will be telling, is if they can pull together enough forces to deal with it, logistically this takes time, so you loose ground till you set it up.

The F@#k wit in the white house gets the blame for a simple reason, its his pissing contest that is to blame. Like it or lump it, Bush did what he did, what was needed was to not rock the apple cart for a few generations. But no, Obama had to get a hard on and show the right how to really free people with encouraging uprisings around the middle east. More importantly the terrorists are our defacto allies in another country.

[West Coast]

Thanks RH. Fingers work faster than they should at times.

[onetrack]

these are generational issues, and you have to maintain some resemblance of stability for several generations for stability to take hold.You conveniently seem to forget these people have had nearly 1400 yrs to sort out their "stability problems" - and they are no more stable today than they were in the year 632. The ruthlessness and savagery of some of the Middle Eastern tribes is legendary, even today.

In the year 750, a revolt led by Abbas, a governor of Persia, overthrew the Ummayads and established the Abassid Dynasty (750-1258). Abbas was a ruthless man who worked to exterminate the Umayyad clan to a man. He even invited eighty Umayyads to a banquet and had them murdered at the table, then covering the bodies so he could finish his meal in peace.

The country of Iraq as we know it today is merely a group of tribes and sects (who hate each others guts with an enmity we in the West can barely understand), that were pushed together by the British in the early 1920's to relieve themselves of the costs of their colonies after WW1.

The fact that "modern" Iraq, as a cobbled-together country, has lasted nearly 90 years before it has once again broken up into its normal bitterly-divided condition, is probably a record for the ME.

[West Coast]

Yes, but bear in mind the engine driving this is foreign fighters. Take that away and it's questionable if ISIS would be marching on Baghdad.

Heard some positive press reports that some gov troops have successfully been fighting back.

[TBM-Legend]

Payback for colonial post WW1 states in the area methinks...

[Wander00]

Read the new book "Lawrence in Arabia" - lots about the notorious Sykes-Picot agreement, which forms a basis for what has gone wrong in the Middle East, and also the roots of Al-Quaeda.

[rh200]

Most of those countrys in one form or another have managed to be kept together in the past by a firm hand.

BBC News - Iraq conflict: Sistani 'issues' Shia call to arms against militants (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27834462)

I think the Sunni extremists may have bitten of more than they can chew, Sistani has issued a call to arms. I suppose it really depends on how much largess he's feeling in how he is going to deal with them.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Extremists going to extremes? Whatever next?

Seriously though, it is inevitable that extremists will go too far; it's just a question of when and how. When the mass of the people live under inequality and corruption, then extremism is more likely. Western bankers ought to remember that.

[bcgallacher]

The Islamic world has always been a violent mess - the so - called 'Jihadists' are just a modern manifestation of the ignorant fanatics that have always existed to a greater or lesser degree. Let the Islamic world deal with its own problems - we cannot impose western values on societies that do not have the slightest idea what western concepts of justice,morality and democracy really mean.As long as we in the West are not directly affected let them slaughter each other without hindrance - there is no point in wringing our hands at the daily atrocities. At the same time we must be prepared and capable of extreme violence to be visited upon the fanatics if they make any attempt to harm our societies.What we should be doing at this time is making sure that our own Islamic communities who harbour a minority of fanatics are under no illusion that we will not tolerate any kind of extremists in our own countries - something that successive governments have failed to do under the guise of 'multi - culturalism'

[ORAC]

I think the Sunni extremists may have bitten of more than they can chew, Sistani has issued a call to arms. I suppose it really depends on how much largess he's feeling in how he is going to deal with them. And if Iran piles in on the side of the Shia, who's going to stop the Saudis going in to help out the Sunni. They might not like ISIS, but the "Shia Crescent" is a red line in the sand.....

[Boudreaux Bob]

There have been several posts complaining about Obama and his lack of action in Iraq. I'd like to hear what the policy geniuses on here think he should do.

It is the putting the Cat back into the Sack that is the trick!

Obama/Biden/Clinton FAILED to negotiate a SOFA that would have kept US Forces in Iraq to oversee the buildup and maturing of Iraqi Defense Forces and Intelligence Operations and FAILED to apply political and diplomatic efforts to ensure a stable security situation.

All they wanted was a domestically palatable outcome that made their supporters happy come election time every two years and particularly when Obama was up for Re-election. Once those Benchmarks were passed without a blow up as we have seen recently then it was all good for Obama.

What we see is the direct results of the FAILURES that were promised to Obama by the Military should those certain and distinct things not be done.

There is no re-writing of history or spinning going to change those facts.

When you make Foreign Policy decisions based upon purely domestic partisan political considerations you are bound to see your foreign policy fail.

[rh200]

And if Iran piles in on the side of the Shia, who's going to stop the Saudis going in to help out the Sunni. They might not like ISIS, but the "Shia Crescent" is a red line in the sand.....

Iran would love to help the Iraqi Shia, but it comes down to how much they actually want from them. From my poor understanding I am told that Arabs have no love lost between them for Persians. So its its not all lovey dovey, but yes they are ideologically close.

If Sistani pulls in all his and Sadrs supporters, there won't be a problem. Basically though out the whole war side of things, we only had to deal with Sadrs supporters, Sistani's are an order of magnitude greater and stayed neutral. or so I'm told.

[Heliringer]

Let them fight and don't get involved.

The only downside I see is more refugees who will peddle their religious ideology and protest that we are racist and hate Islam whilst enjoying our liberal benefits and culture. However, we should be telling them that they should be at home fighting for those beliefs and not hiding in the west?:=

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

bcgallacher....... well said sir:ok::ok:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Saudis going in to help out


Foxtrot Alpha liklihood of that..........they may pay somebody though!

[Lonewolf_50]

Basically though out the whole war side of things, we only had to deal with Sadrs supporters, Sistani's are an order of magnitude greater and stayed neutral. or so I'm told.
That was the brief back when I was in theater, but it's been a few years. Al Sadr has been working hard to make his slice of the pie a bit bigger.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I think a lot more people are going to start realising why the House of Saud has an IRBM launch site pointing at Tehran.

[Flash2001]

I just watched a rather well done Al Jazeera documentary called "Killing the Count." It gives a bit of insight into the present day middle east situation.

After an excellent landing etc...

[500N]

Heliringer

Australia solved that problem, don't let them in and ship those that arrive off to a shyte hole island. the don't like it so stopped coming.

[Robert Cooper]

One thing that Obama could do is rescue the 200 Americans trapped in Balad AFB.

According to reports by private contractors recently evacuated from Iraq, there are about 200 American contractors still trapped at Balad Air Force Base who are fighting for their lives against an army of ISIS jihadists surrounding the base. They are reported to be under fire from small arms and rocket propelled grenades, but are fighting back with weapons the fleeing private security forces and Iraqi military left behind.

Those on the scene report it is only a matter of time before the ISIS terrorists succeed in breaking through the perimeter, and they expressed concern that the contractors would be harshly dealt with when the ISIS final capture them.

Meanwhile, Obama is jetting off to the West Coast for some "fun and sun"

I just hope that this is not another “Benghazi” in the making.

Bob C

[zetec2]

bcgallacher, likewise - well said that man, thanks.

[bcgallacher]

I lived and worked in the region for many years and have a little knowledge of the way things are. They hate us and they hate each other with an intensity that I have found nowhere else. I read of Saudi help for various factions - I can only laugh at that as a more incompetent race of people one would be hard pressed to find.They have been inbreeding for generations with the resulting mental and physical genetic problems that the practice causes.Leave the buggers to get on with it - if they are busy slaughtering each other in the name of the religion of peace and tolerance they are not bothering us.We have lost enough of our young men in the Middle East and Afghanistan in futile attempts to bring 'Democracy'. Our politicians and their advisors have absolutely no idea what they are dealing with and are completely out of their depth. The most important thing to know is the old arab saying -if you do not have your foot on his neck he will have his foot on yours.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Fund Raising and Golf are the Bamster's priorities you know and besides the problem in Iraq is for the Iraqi's to solve not His!

4 Americans in Benghazi....at this point who cares.....when it is 200 in Balad!

Perhaps John (Who served in Vietnam as you may recall) Kerry will take Swift Action on this and save the day.

[Rosevidney1]

John Kerry could give them his basilisk stare - and a jolly good talking to!

[The Sultan]

BB

Anybody but a moron knows that this was the logical end game of the bogus 2003 need to invade except Shrub and his Chickenhawk neocons. Powell and Shinseki told them. There have always been three factions that hated each other. Reagan may have had it right to support Sadam after all.

RC

If there were 200 Americans trapped why isn't Fox freaking? If there are why we're they too stupid not to get out and be left behind? Why risk one soldier to save a civilian contractor who chose to be there?

The Sultan

[Robert Cooper]

Apparently the Iraqi Air force is now airlifting them out, according to news reports here.

Bob C

[Heathrow Harry]

Sultan is right - there was NEVER a good case for invading Iraq - Saddam was a b***** but no threat to the West - in fact he was no friend of AQ

Now we've destabilised the whole region for a generation

[Simplythebeast]

Iraqi Air Force evacuating besieged U.S. contractors (http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/200-u-s-contractors-surrounded-by-jihadists-in-iraq/)

[ORAC]

The Commentator: From Iraq to Ukraine: The disaster of Obama's world (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5018/from_iraq_to_ukraine_the_disaster_of_obama_s_world)

Well, we now have a pretty good idea of what the world looks like when American leadership is withdrawn. We are simultaneously reminded of what happens when a power vacuum opens up: it gets filled. From Ukraine, through Afghanistan and Iraq all the way to the East China Sea, the world's dictatorships and terror groups smell weakness in Washington. They have adjusted their posture accordingly.

To be sure, any one of those conflict zones, and all the others besides, were problematic to start with. On that most toxic of all modern conflicts, the Iraq war, we have long been of the opinion that reasonable people can disagree about whether the 2003 intervention was the right course of action or whether aggressive containment might have been a better option. But simply washing one's hands of Iraq would have been as irresponsible in 2003 as it is today, when the increasingly hopeless Obama administration appears to have been taken by surprise at the consequences of its own incompetence.

There were never going to be any easy options in Iraq, or for that matter in Ukraine, Afghanistan and elsewhere. Leadership is not about things being easy. It's about taking the really tough decisions, and sometimes getting things wrong. But above all else it's about being there, having your hand firmly on the rudder, and letting everyone know what you stand for and what you won't stand for.

Sound like Barack Obama? No, actually, it doesn't. And that's the core problem. No-one is blaming Obama for the existence of ISIS, the Islamist terror group now running riot in Iraq, where we did intervene, and in Syria where we didn't. It's not that ISIS exists, it's what they have become in response to the power vacuums that Obama has allowed to be created. Maybe there is nothing we could have done. But throwing one's hands in the air and shrugging one's shoulders is a sure fire way to guarantee the ascendance of the bad guys.

That applies to ISIS. It applies to the Taliban. It applies to Vladimir Putin's Russia, and it applies to China.

Again, don't expect a world with strong American leadership to be easy. Don't expect straight lines or an absence of complexity.

But without American leadership, do expect things to deteriorate rapidly. Don't take our word for it. Just look around you.

[Simplythebeast]

Did you say American Leadership?

[bcgallacher]

ORAC - Ithink you should take a look at the history of American military intervention before doing the usual American right wing rant against Obama - he is no worse than previous American leaders.
Vietnam - complete disaster,cost over 50,000 American lives and 3 million Vietnamese.
Lebanon - another screw up and ignominious retreat.
Somalia - Ditto
Panama - illegal invasion to arrest the CIA puppet president.
Nicaragua - arming a terrorist group to depose a popular leader - failed.
2003 Iraq war - got rid of one regime and replaced it with something worse at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives.
Afghanistan - cost thousands of American lives,huge number of Afghan civilian lives,established torture chambers in POW camps.On the exit of foreign forces the country will revert to what it was - the lamp posts will be decorated with hanging bodies and beheading will become a national sport.
Libya - this can be blamed on the Obama administration - turned a badly run country into a complete ungovernable mess.
You want the rest of the world to consider the USA as our leader? That stopped being the case some years ago but you continue to fool yourselves.

[Simplythebeast]

Iran have now offered to join the USA in efforts to sort this mess, thats interesting....I wonder what they would see as payback? How would Israel see a joint US/Iranian effort?
Iraq president now threatens deserters will be executed.....
We live in interesting times.....meanwhile I would imagine a certain Mr Putin will probably take advantage of this distraction to grab a bit more of Ukraine.

[Rick777]

Bob, you are right about putting the cat back into the bag, but rather than saying that Obama failed to negotiate a SOFA, I would say he just chose not to. We only went onto Iraq to finish W's daddy's unfinished business and make Cheney's company some oil money anyway. Why should we leave more Americans in harms way? As the peaceniks used to say "We are not the cops of the world". Suni and Shia have hated each other since long before we came along and probably will long after we are gone.

[mini]

Well, I guess the American war generated industry has stuffed itself silly after the last invasion.

Sorting this mess out looks iffy.

Nah, we'll pass. Might toss you a few airstrikes.

[Boudreaux Bob]

It is a very full Moon, confirmed by looking out the Window and reading some of the Lefty Loon's posts showing up here. Must be a change in the weather and the government checks showing up in the mailbox adding to the surge.

[Danny42C]

....... take with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, ....... and the last state of that man is worse than the first”.....(Matt 12:45).

About sums it up.

D.

[onetrack]

ORAC - Please remind me again about how many completely successful wars, America has prosecuted since 1950 - due to the excellent strategies American political and military leadership have indulged in, during the promotion of all those wars.

American taxpayers in general have been "led up the garden path", and now face the paydown of a national debt of unparalleled size - brought about by the defence industries/military groups/corporate control of the nation, and their "economy-building forays" into unnecessary wars, for over 65 yrs.

[rh200]

American taxpayers in general have been "led up the garden path", and now face the paydown of a national debt of unparalleled size - brought about by the defence industries/military groups/corporate control of the nation, and their "economy-building forays" into unnecessary wars, for over 65 yrs.

Actually as I have said before, I think the Iraqi one was extremely successful until the next half wit came along and decided to show how to free the middle east. The Shia and Kurds where doing very nicely thank you very much. For those of you who don't agree, do I need to remind you about N.I. and how hard it is.

Its amazing how 80% of the population are irrelevant if they don't conform to your social view point.

[The Sultan]

Just saw on BBC that Blair stated the current chaos in Iraq is not his or Shrub's fault. It is caused by not supporting the anti Assad forces in Syria. Guess what Tony! Those are the guys behind this.

The Sultan

[GreenKnight121]

No - the anti-Assad forces he is talking about are the moderate rebels.

These are the radical anti-Assad rebel forces, which we wouldn't have been arming.

Except that in many cases arms meant for one group ended up with a different group - and this happened with both aid for moderates ending up with radicals and aid for radicals ending up with moderates.

Hence the reason we didn't send arms to anyone.

[Brian Abraham]

What can one say?

LiveLeak.com - Horror in Iraqi Roads - Isis Death Squads Killing without mercy. Video not for all (18+)

[500N]

That's thrill killing, nothing more.

When they interrogate people and then execute them, they can say they have a reason but just drive by shooting up civilian cars,
they are doing it for thrills.

[Tourist]

Brian

How is what they are doing in the video different from when we drop a bomb on somebody or chew them up with 30mm cannon from an Apache?

For all we know those are selected targets from a robust process designed to reduce enemy capability signed off at the highest level.

Honest question.

[VinRouge]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a1b_1402780223

[500N]

On one video, it states (via sub titles) that it is them eliminating Safawi army on the way to join their militia units.

[Ronald Reagan]

Best way to prevent the spread of terrorist groups in the region would be to have left Saddam in power in Iraq and Gaddafi in Libya. The west could have helped Assad in Syria. The result would have been three stable dictatorships with minimal chance of terrorist groups being able to operate within said countries easily. But as usual the west had to ruin things totally. Western leaders really are fools.

[VinRouge]

The cynic in me says that actually, a load of wahabbis wiping each other out in the sand pit keeps em distracted and therefore stops problems on our doorstep. Absolutely tragic for the civilians caught up in it all, but its not our problem a 1400 year old spat over accession is manifesting itself today.

Hopefully, the large number of Brit born wannabe wahabbis will end up in a similar unmarked sandy hole in the near future too, preferably with a hole in the head, rather than blowing themselves up on a bus or a tube.

Looks as if Iran are going to be distracted for a while now too.

[West Coast]

RR

Throw Russia in the mix as a somewhat stable dictatorship as well. Now we just have to figure out how to keep him in a (non expanding) box.

[atpcliff]

The problem is The West still uses oil as its main transportation fuel.

Total world excess output: 2.5m barrels/day.
Total Iraqi output: 2.5m barrels/day.

If the Iraqi oil output declines significantly, oil prices will skyrocket.

[500N]

"Hopefully, the large number of Brit born wannabe wahabbis will end up in a similar unmarked sandy hole in the near future too, preferably with a hole in the head,"

If they try to get too pushy in the UK, they might not even need to go to a sand pit to get one of those after the masses rise up and take action.

But it would be good if they all went off to the sand pit to "do their bit" !

[Willard Whyte]

RR

Best way to prevent the spread of terrorist groups...

...to have left Saddam in power in Iraq and Gaddafi in Libya.

You can't prevent something in the present by altering something in the past.

You're as bad as that frightful woman on question time last week.

[Boudreaux Bob]

If we could do that, would the Obama worshipers have been such zealots?:rolleyes:

[ShotOne]

"You can't prevent something in the present by altering something in the past"
On the contrary Willard you can't prevent anything by offering a wilfully false view of the past then using it to justify present day actions.

Are you honestly backing Tony Blair's deranged claim that Iraq's ability to resist extremism was not affected by us smashing and disbanding their armed forces, most of their police and dismantling almost every vestige of government?

[ORAC]

Washington Post: Obama’s Iraq disaster (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-obamas-iraq-disaster/2014/06/16/7151391e-f55b-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html)

In 2011, the situation in Iraq was so good that the Obama administration was actually trying to take credit for it, with Vice President Joe Biden declaring that Iraq “could be one of the great achievements of this administration.” Now in 2014, as Iraq descends into chaos, Democrats are trying to blame the fiasco on — you guessed it — George W. Bush. “I don’t think this is our responsibility (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06/12/pelosi-i-dont-think-this-is-our-responsibility-to-save-iraq/),” said House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, declaring that the unfolding disaster in Iraq “represents the failed policies that took us down this path 10 years ago.”

Sorry, but this is a mess of President Obama’s making.

When Obama took office he inherited a pacified Iraq, where the terrorists had been defeated both militarily and ideologically. Militarily, thanks to Bush’s surge, coupled with the Sunni Awakening, al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI, now the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, or ISIS) was driven from the strongholds it had established in Anbar and other Iraqi provinces. It controlled no major territory, and its top leader — Abu Musab al-Zarqawi — had been killed by U.S. Special Operations forces. Ideologically, the terrorists had suffered a popular rejection. Iraq was supposed to be a place where al-Qaeda rallied the Sunni masses to drive America out, but instead, the Sunnis joined with Americans to drive al-Qaeda out — a massive ideological defeat.

Obama took that inheritance and squandered it, with two catastrophic mistakes:

First, he withdrew all U.S. forces from Iraq — allowing the defeated terrorists to regroup and reconstitute themselves. Second, he failed to support the moderate, pro-Western opposition in neighboring Syria — creating room for ISIS to fill the security vacuum. ISIS took over large swaths of Syrian territory, established a safe haven, used it to recruit and train thousands of jihadists, and prepared their current offensive in Iraq. The result: When Obama took office, the terrorists had been driven from their safe havens; now they are on threatening to take control of a nation. Iraq is on the cusp of turning into what Afghanistan was in the 1990s — a safe haven from which to plan attacks on America and its allies.

It did not have to be this way. In 2011, the U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. Lloyd J. Austin III, recommended keeping between 14,000 and 18,000 troops in Iraq (down from 45,000). The White House rejected Austin’s recommendation (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/06/sources-obama-administration-to-drop-troop-levels-in-iraq-to-3000/#ixzz1b3R6hETC), worried about “the cost and the political optics.” So our commanders reduced their request to 10,000 — a number commanders said might be able to work “in extremis.” But the White House rejected this as well, insisting the number be cut to between 3,000 to 4,000 troops — a level insufficient to provide force protection and train Iraqis, much less to counterbalance Iran.

Iraqi leaders saw that the United States has headed for the exits — and decided that the tiny U.S. force Obama was willing to leave behind was not worth the political costs of giving Americans immunity from prosecution in the Iraqi judicial system. So Iraq rejected Obama’s offer, and the United States withdrew all its forces. And now ISIS is taking back cities that were liberated with American blood. It has taken control of Mosul, Tikrit and Tal Afar and is nearing the outskirts of Baghdad.

ISIS is not the only U.S. enemy taking advantage of the power vacuum Obama left in the region. So is Iran.

A month ago, Iraqi leaders asked the United States to carry out air strikes against ISIS positions but were rebuffed by Obama (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/world/middleeast/iraq-asked-us-for-airstrikes-on-militants-officials-say.html?_r=1&gwh=2DCED52236B0A470EC67F0345EA6EDFA&gwt=pay&assetType=nyt_now). So the Iraqis have turned to Iran for help. This weekend, the brutal commander of Iran’s notorious Quds Force, Gen. Quasim Suleiman, flew to Baghdad to advise the Iraqis on the defense of Baghdad. This is the man who organized and funded the Shia militias in Iraq, and armed them with EFPs (explosively formed penetrators) — sophisticated armor-piercing roadside bombs that killed hundreds of U.S. troops.

And, if you thought matters could not get any worse, the Wall Street Journal reports that Obama “is preparing to open direct talks with Iran (http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-preparing-to-discuss-iraqs-woes-with-iran-1402871232?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories) on how the two longtime foes can counter the insurgents.” Yes, you read that right. Obama is planning to work with Iran (http://www.aei-ideas.org/2014/06/iran-offers-help-in-iraq-say-no/) to counter ISIS in Iraq. In other words, our troops may soon be providing air cover for the very Iranians who were killing them.

If Obama had listened to the advice of his commanders on the ground, ISIS would probably not be marching on Baghdad today, and Iran would not be stepping in to fill the void left by the U.S. withdrawal. Thanks to Obama, we may soon have a situation where we are helping our Shia extremist enemies (Iran) fight our Sunni extremist enemies (ISIS) for control of Iraq.

That’s quite an “achievement.”

[Basil]

Iraq: ISIS Fighter Forces Iraqi Soldiers To Chant Slogan - YouTube

[Ronald Reagan]

How on Earth could the Iraqi military be defeated so easily. It has had so much money spent on it and it has some amazing kit. All they have to do is to stand and fight. Their air force controls the skies! Lets be honest, if your a soldier in this situation, allowing yourself to be taken prisoner is a non option. They should have been able to wipe out such a small amount of terrorists. Its almost like the ARVN all over again, BUT this time there are apparently so few terrorists. It does at least seem that Assad's military is up to the job, good job they still exist! (if up to Cameron, Hollande and Obama they would likely not still exist)

[500N]

10 men with a head will beat 100 without any day of the week.

[satpak77]

Hopefully friendly aka US/UK/etc military assets are spotted soon in the skies overhead....

[The Sultan]

RR

First Saddam should have been left alone. As to Qdaffy Pan Am 103 is the only thing needed to eliminate him. Reagan was too weak, Condi and McCain sucked (up to?) him, but the President got us a great video of QD being sodomized. Victory!

Second, the Iraqi forces collapse rivals the Brits in Singapore and MacArthur's loss of the Philippines to far numerically inferior forces.

The Sultan

[Boudreaux Bob]

Basil, you do know they were all shot dead starting with the Officer. He left behind a Wife and three Children and his body has not been recovered.

[parabellum]

If Iran enters this fray they will come in via the South West corner of Iraq, do what is required of them to support their fellow Shi'as and they will then move back to the South West corner but remain in control of that part of Iraq, much of which they have claimed as theirs for a very long time, just happens that corner also has several oil producing areas.


Iran aren't coming in to support any American effort, they are putting right what they perceive as a long standing wrong.


Sultan - The British in Singapore were running out of ammunition, food and water. Suggest you read a book or two on the fall of Singapore.

[ShotOne]

Sultan the reason we lost Singapore is that Britain was engaged in a desperate battle for national survival against an all-conquering Nazi war machine. The defences were never designed to withstand a land assault. Even then we should have made a better show, but it would have been a show; the most determined defence wouldn't have changed the end result and would have caused massive civilian casualties.

Let's not forget the Iraqis HAD an army that would easily have crushed ISIS. The one being criticised here is the one we left them with!

[Heathrow Harry]

"Sorry, but this is a mess of President Obama’s making.

When Obama took office he inherited a pacified Iraq, where the terrorists had been defeated both militarily and ideologically."

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

so well defeated that they're back as soon as the Yanks leave eh?

Bush & Bliar are responsible for turning Iraq into a madhouse where hundreds of thousands of people have been killed for no apparent gain to anyone

[Simplythebeast]

Im not sure why so many people are so intent on telling us whos fault it is? Surely what we actually need is people who can tell us how best to retrieve the situation. Perhaps if all the armchair experts and those with exceptional hindsight could get together they could, between them sort this issue out easily by tomorrow morning.

[rh200]

o well defeated that they're back as soon as the Yanks leave eh?

No, going so well until they stirred things up in Syria. And the Yanks should never have left so early. All this was talked about and predicted. Again it takes decades to solidify these things, and you don't go stirring things up next door.

[Basil]

Basil, you do know they were all shot dead starting with the Officer.
No, I didn't. I thought he'd get it for refusing to swear allegiance to an Islamic Republic but was unaware they'd topped the lot.
Personally, I think I'd have said "Yeah, whatever; good idea, this Islamic Republic."

Puts a couple of recent minor Brit incidents into perspective.

[eastern wiseguy]

Boudreaux Bob

Obama/Biden/Clinton FAILED to negotiate a SOFA that would have kept US Forces in Iraq

Do you mean RE-NEGOTIATE?

Okay, well it’s true that in December of 2011 we did pull all of our troops out of Iraq. But we didn’t do it because of President Obama’s policies – we did it because of a Status of Forces Agreement (sometimes called SOFA) that was signed while George W. Bush was still president. This agreement, again signed by George W. Bush, set deadlines for the end of U.S. combat operations as June 30, 2009 and for all U.S. forces to be pulled out of Iraq by December 30, 2011. So when they say “Obama pulled U.S. forces out of Iraq in 2011 leaving the country to fall into the hands of terrorists,” the reality is he was following an agreement that George W. Bush had already signed well before he became president. - See more at: There's One Fact Republicans Blaming Obama for Iraq Don't Want Americans to Know About (http://www.forwardprogressives.com/one-fact-republicans-blaming-obama-iraq-dont-want-americans-know/#sthash.IuYATDfF.dpuf)

[Boudreaux Bob]

Parse words how you want. Obama/Biden/Clinton FAILED. We see the cost of that on TV each day now.

You will this done again when we leave Afghanistan as well.

Hide and Watch!

[eastern wiseguy]

Bob

It is nothing short of ABSURD to try to follow your line of argument.

What would you have the president do? Retain forces in Iraq/Afghanistan for an undefined amount of time?

How would that play out in the US?

Moreover was there ever the slightest doubt that this was what would happen when the US left? As they say in my home town of Belfast "sure the bloody dogs in the street could have told you that"

[skydiver69]

I can't believe that we look as if we are encouraging Iran to get involved in Iraq, although I'm sure that they would get involved without our assistance, however we are giving them legitimacy by doing so. Hague has used the situation to justify the speeding up of the reopening of our embassy in Tehran with suggestions that it could be used for behind the scenes talks between America and Iran.

When Iran assists Syria we condemn it so what is the difference with their potential involvement in Iraq ;) There is also a good chance that it will make the situation worse given the ISIS hatred of Shiites in general and Iranian Shiites in particular and therefore might accelerate the path to all out civil war and the break up of the country into three parts.

[satpak77]

Parse words how you want. Obama/Biden/Clinton FAILED. We see the cost of that on TV each day now.

You will this done again when we leave Afghanistan as well.

Hide and Watch!

Is this just a "Democrat" problem ? All the idiot politicians failed. Both parties. You might talk to Colin Powell on why he resigned.

If you think any political party is exempt from deception, trickery, and outright fooling the people, well, you are fooled.

By the way, Afghan was much more needed/justified than any combat action in Iraq. Leave Saddam in place, he could have kept a lid on the trashcan. Afghan, different situation (terrorism, etc).

[Heathrow Harry]

trouble is too many Americans views are so polarised that they can only blame the opposition

they can see no harm in their own side and its all the other guys fault

Quite a few US posters on here really can't accept that Bush has a great deal of responsibility for what went wrong and that Obama was elected to AVOID more "interventions"

[West Coast]

Quite a few US posters on here really can't accept that Bush has a great deal of responsibility for what went wrong and that Obama was elected to AVOID more "interventions"

And quite a few euros want to revisit 2003 when the pressing question is what the US response should be to the situation at hand.

History will judge the past, if you choose to offer opinion then it should be of impending action.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Seems the Democrats and former Cabinet Staff are beginning to see the need to step away from Obama as their very own personal reputations are at grave risk.

Douglas E. Schoen: The Democrats Every Republican Should Quote - WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/articles/douglas-e-schoen-the-democrats-every-republican-should-quote-1402961606)

[Ronald Reagan]

Maybe the west can supply Iran and Assad's Syria with all kinds of sophisticated weapons to fight the terrorists with! Then we in the west won't need to do anything else.
I always knew our foolish leaders in the west were supporting the wrong side in the Syrian civil war. How long have I been saying it for on here?!
Just imagine if Assad had fallen due to the west, then these terrorists would control even more of Syria than they currently do and likely be even stronger!
We now have Iran and Assad as the vanguard of the war on terror fighting terrorists which the west have hugely helped through our foolish actions. The whole thing is like some badly written novel that no one would believe as it simply cannot be true except it is!

[NutLoose]

I must admit, watching the news of these ISIS chaps popping off the opposition that had surrendered, it isn't exactly smart, the rest are not going to surrender now they know it means an instant death sentence. Talk about making a rod for your own back.

[West Coast]

I must admit, watching the news of these ISIS chaps popping off the opposition that had surrendered, it isn't exactly smart

Agreed. There was a point in the war when the Sunni's in Iraq rose up against AQ due to the wholesale killing of Muslims not deemed fanatical enough.

[The Sultan]

Para

Churchill did not agree with your position. Told the Brits to fight, they had 70000 first line troops against a far inferior Japanese ground force. In the standard ratio of 5 attackers required to overcome a competent defense the Brits should have at least held out for more than a week!

The Sultan

[rh200]

What would you have the president do? Retain forces in Iraq/Afghanistan for an undefined amount of time?

Umm yea, basically you fix it until it can go by itself. That is you try something, look at a trend, if its not working try something else. Basically the system was working until we stirred up Syria.

Cultures have been taking over, or modifying others for thousands of years, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. There's no rocket science in it. Just how far you are prepared to go.

Some here where happy to leave Saddam in power to carry out the odd genocidal act if anyone rose up, because it gave them deny-ability and an illusion of some western resemblance in Baghdad. This was irrespective of 80% of the population being suppressed. Well actually 60% the Kurds managed to have their whole Clayton's state thing going.

How would that play out in the US?

Cr@p!

We in the west have become weak, brainwashed by hollywood and other leftists. The thought of a quick fix resembles our lives of not wanting to become inconvenienced, and everything revolves around me.

[parabellum]

Sultan - All very well if you have ammunition, water and food. Without ammunition it really doesn't matter if you have odds of 10 to 1, you are going to lose! The surrender was ordered to save lives, both military and civilian. My late father in law was there at the time and I can vouch for the lack if vital supplies and none coming in.

[eastern wiseguy]

Umm yea, basically you fix it until it can go by itself. That is you try something, look at a trend, if its not working try something else. Basically the system was working until we stirred up Syria.

A few points.

The general US population is sick sore and tired of wars ( in the Iraqi case a SPURIOUS and UNNECCESSARY excursion) They are tired of the body count....they are tired of funding war.

Fix it until it can go by itself. If you believe that that is likely to produce ANY sort of lasting consensus given the nature of the beast...call me...i have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in.

Syria was working well ....as was Iraq ...because the local hardman had kept a lid on the sectarian hatred and brooked no nonsense ...until.....

If the local population wanted rid of him.....that should be up to them.

Al Malaki is an idiot. He has squandered the chance (albeit a very slim one) by alienating the Sunnis of making the place work.....

[rh200]

The general US population is sick sore and tired of wars ( in the Iraqi case a SPURIOUS and UNNECCESSARY excursion) They are tired of the body count....they are tired of funding war.

Then you shouldn't start them. Become isolationist and see where it gets you in 50 years. The fact is there will always be a power vacuum on all levels that some one will fill, its nature. You may not like who fills it.

Fix it until it can go by itself. If you believe that that is likely to produce ANY sort of lasting consensus given the nature of the beast...call me...i have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in.


You chose to go in there, whether you liked it or not, once that was done, it would be the right thing to make sure it worked. But the left didn't like that, it had to fail otherwise Bush might be right.

Syria was working well ....as was Iraq ...because the local hardman had kept a lid on the sectarian hatred and brooked no nonsense ...until.....

I wouldn't say Syria was working well, something you would put up with maybe, in two or three decades it may have been alright. definitely it didn't need to be stuffed with, especially whilst trying to keep a lid on the Sunnis in Iraqi.

If the local population wanted rid of him.....that should be up to them.

That would be fine, but in the real world their is no real local, every one is influenced and assisted by the outside. Bit hard to get rid of him if the oppressor is supplied with various outside weapons including gas.

Al Malaki is an idiot. He has squandered the chance (albeit a very slim one) by alienating the Sunnis of making the place work.....

You seem to have no understanding of basic social dynamics and orders of magnitude of the problems. The Shia make up the vast majority of the population. They have just as many extremists as a percentage of their respective groups. Hence its a balancing act of satisfying groups. Some one was always going to miss out and be pissed off.

[West Coast]

Some one was always going to miss out and be pissed off.

In general terms, a rather loose definition of a democracy I'd say. As I said, in general terms.

I don't think his understanding is off. Al Malaki could have tried to play it right down the middle, he choose not to.

[rh200]

I don't think his understanding is off. Al Malaki could have tried to play it right down the middle, he choose not to.

I have no actually idea behind his reasoning, but I wouldn't be surprised it was more to do with keeping their extremists under wraps.

You can only make various tactical decisions with the information you have at the time. Trying to make forward judgments on whether neighboring countries are going to be destabilized or not can be hard. Convolve that with various other democratic bureaucratic nonsense and its a bit of a lotto draw.

Or he could just be an @rsehole:p

[Basil]

British ISIS fighter urges Muslims to avenge murder of Saudi woman in Colchester | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2661933/British-jihadist-claims-terrorists-heading-home-Iraq-Syria-mission-kill-orders-Al-Qaeda-inspired-ISIS-leader.html)

Now, following the brutal murder of a Saudi woman of Ms Almanea in Colchester yesterday - which police believed may have been inspired to her conservative Muslim clothing - Abu Rashash Britani called for revenge attacks.

'These kuffar getting out of hand, dare they touch a #Muslimah. I call upon any brother to take up a knife and kill as they did #colchester,' he posted on Twitter.

[ShotOne]

If the fellow making that threat has taken himself off for a sunny (or Sunni) holiday in Iraq, at least there's a bit of a silver lining.

I read that ISIS have got their hands on a Saddam era chemical weapons store. How on earth...!?? So we spent an enormous pile of blood and treasure to remove WMD's...only for some murderous fanatics to get them. Great job,!

[500N]

Shot one

I read the article on that and a US spokesperson said "if we knew this would happen then we wouldn't have left the stockpiles there" :rolleyes:

Why the hell did they leave the chemicals there in bulk, full stop ?

[Torque Tonight]

I find this whole situation rather depressing. As one who served on Op Telic, it does appear that all our efforts, £ billions, time and lives were wasted. BritMil undertook their duties honourably and decisively but were grossly let down by the politicians who had no plan for the long game. Bush and Blair created a power vacuum, failed to fill it with anything viable, and now it is being filled with something far worse than we started with. For Obama and Blair, the ironically appointed Middle East peace envoy, to declare that it is not their problem / fault is deplorable hypocrisy. The footage of western trained and equipped troops being systematically executed in their thousands is an inglorious event in history.

Hard-ass dictators like Saddam, Assad and Gadaffi may have been a thorn in the side to the West, but at least they were more or less secular and managed to keep a lid on these volatile sh1tholes. I would have to select a secular dictatorship with zero human rights every time over fundamentalist anarchy with zero human rights.

We now have the delightful prospect of fundamentalist terrorists having effective sovereignty over vast swathes of land and nation status. Furthermore these d1ckheads are increasingly well established and organised from the 'Stans in the east to Nigeria in the west. I am concerned for what the future holds and I suspect that our experience in Northern Ireland will pale into insignificance compared to what's in store for the UK in years to come.

[500N]

"Hard-ass dictators like Saddam, Assad and Gadaffi may have been a thorn in the side to the West,"


Apart from Gadaffi supplying arms to the IRA and Lockerbie, and maybe Saddam invading Kuwait, what have they really done that made them such a thorn, or did they just piss off the wrong people ?

[Torque Tonight]

I think there was a notion that all these countries would eagerly transform into nice little European-style liberal democracies, and all those nasty human rights issues would be a thing of the past. Look how that turned out.

I suspect the root cause of Gulf War 2 was Dubya wanting to avenge daddy, and Blair wanting to be his obedient servant, although the truth will probably never come out.

If we could have established a 'don't f*** with us and we won't f*** with you' relationship with Saddam and Gadaffi the world would probably now be a safer place. These dictators had woodchippers and meathooks to deal with the kind of people that are now commanding territory across Syria and Iraq.

[ShotOne]

We'd done just that, torque, particularly with Gadhaffi. Right down to mutual prisoner torture-swaps. He'd handed over most WMD nasties too. If he'd kept them he might still be around!

[West Coast]

I think there was a notion that all these countries would eagerly transform into nice little European-style liberal democracies

Perhaps amongst some, certainly not universally.

[NutLoose]

This is why they went into Iraq...... Petrodollars

The Petrodollar Wars | The Iraq Petrodollar Connection (http://ftmdaily.com/preparing-for-the-collapse-of-the-petrodollar-system-part-3/)

[500N]

Torque

I think you are correct with everything.


The "'don't f*** with us and we won't f*** with you' relationship" has one hell of a lot going for it.


The UK still had the Murdered PC to sort out but I still reckon that could have been done.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Torque Tonight....

There are many on here just like you, proud to serve, Queen and Country etc etc they thought it was a great idea at the time, don't question......

Please remember that millions thought it was a stupid idea without the benefit of hindsight.

Everything that's happening now could be logically reasoned before the Iraq wmd/terrrorist/democracy debacle commenced. It's literally not rocket science. I think the military are often too close to the **** to see the horse's arse, but please crack on regardless.

:ok:

[rh200]

It's literally not rocket science.

Your right it isn't rocket science, so why go f%$^ with things when you still have a work in progress going on in Iraqi?

I think the military are often too close to the **** to see the horse's arse, but please crack on regardless.

The military have no choice, its their duty whether they think its a good idea or not. I know some of th left have some magical dreams about them refusing to do this and that when the "cause" isn't just, but thats a slippery slope.

[parabellum]

Shot One: WMD Stockpile of chemicals. US intelligence has satellite imagery that suggests Saddam sent his stockpile to Syria, it is possible, due to the upheaval in Syria, that these chemicals have come back to Iraq - probably long time expired but still lethal.


Nut Loose - Iraqi oil, if Iraq never produced another barrel the cost of petrol at the pump would go up by no more than a cent or two per litre and probably not in the USA who don't depend on Middle Eastern oil anyway. Do you seriously think the USA would commit hundreds of thousands of men and billions of dollars to Iraq in order to save the rest of the world from a two cent rise in the price of petrol?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I see the Police have gone from the PC "We think this may be a hate crime due to her dress" to the "We have no positive evidence at all". I wonder if this might be connected to the revenge tweet in between?

Political Correctness - bringing random murders by extremists to your neighbourhood, aided by social media - aren't they both lovely

[ShotOne]

Much as I'm irritated by the PC brigade, fox, we can hardly blame them because some nut-job murders a stranger whether it was because of how she's dressed or because a hatstand told him to.

Parabellum, read nutlooses link. The petrodollar doesn't depend on physical control of a given bit of oil, rather the currency in which it's traded worldwide. Whether or not that was the cause of the war, though is another argument.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I feel the PC brigade has been calling so many things a hate crime, for so long, which weren't, that it is now an automatic reaction. This has consequences. If there was no evidence, then why was the initial statement issued? So, I feel we can blame the PC crowd for this one. I did say bringing, not carrying out. Extremists are now a reality, and nothing should be done to inflame them without evidence. The previous vicious stabbing in Colchester 3 months before was of a vulnerable white male. There would seem to be zero basis for making the initial statement about Islamic dress, other than PC. If anything, the statement should have been about vulnerable persons in general. I'm not blaming them for the stabbing; but they've clearly caused the incitement for revenge stabbings by Islamic extremists.

[TEEEJ]

500N wrote

Why the hell did they leave the chemicals there in bulk, full stop ?

It appears that it was down to the state of the munitons in the bunkers at the Muthanna complex. They were sealed in the already bombed bunkers in the 1990s.

12. A bunker at the storage area of the Muthanna State Establishment containing hundreds of artillery rockets filled with nerve agents was destroyed in part through coalition aerial bombardment in 1991. Because of the collapsed roof of the structure it was not possible to determine the exact extent of the destruction of munitions, nor their exact quantity (Iraq claimed that there were 2,500 munitions in the bunker). In order to prevent further contamination of the area with nerve agents from damaged rockets, Iraq, under the supervision of United Nations inspectors, sealed the structure with reinforced concrete and brick walls covered with earth. In 1994, Iraq
signed a protocol with the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) by
which it undertook to inspect the sealed bunker at least once a month to ensure that the seals were intact and the warning signs were not removed, damaged or defaced.

Iraq also agreed to seek the approval of the United Nations inspectors prior to
opening or entering the bunker as long as Security Council resolution 715 (1991) remained in force. There were also 16 other sealed structures and areas at the Muthanna State Establishment that contained potentially hazardous items and materials covered by the same protocol. UNMOVIC does not know whether these procedures have been followed up by the coalition forces after the withdrawal of UNMOVIC from Iraq in March 2003 or recently pursued by the Interim Government of Iraq.

http://www.un.org/depts/unmovic/new/documents/technical_documents/s-2004-693-handling_of_cbw_munitions.pdf

The current Iraqi Government signed the Chemical Convention and made plans for the destruction of those chemical weapons at Muthanna.

In accordance with Article III of the Convention and Part IV(A) of the Verification Annex to the Convention (hereinafter “the Verification Annex”), Iraq declared that the Category 1 chemical weapons it possessed were remnants—a result of 1991 military operations; in addition, this State Party committed to submit the general plan for the destruction of those chemical weapons to the Secretariat as soon as possible.

Progress on the preparation of the destruction plan approach for Al Muthanna bunkers

6. Further to that, the Iraqi authorities are interested in informing the Council of the progress that has been made during the intersessional period (from February to 30 April 2012) at the national level towards the disposal of the remnants of chemical weapons at the Al Muthanna site, in particular those in bunkers 13 and 41, which have involved a number of measures and activities

https://www.opcw.org/index.php?eID=dam_frontend_push&docID=15487

At least one of the bunkers was assessed as being too hazardous and plans were made to encapsulate it in more concrete.


Due to Iraq's unique circumstances, a final destruction deadline has not been set for the country. In February 2012, Iraq submitted to the OPCW a national paper detailing its approach towards the destruction of the contents in the Al Muthanna bunkers. In May 2012, Iraq amended its submission, noting that the remnants in Bunker 13 were especially hazardous and that the lowest risk course of action would be to irreversibly encapsulate in concrete the bunker contents.

Defense Treaty Inspection Readiness Program | Treaty Information Center (http://dtirp.dtra.mil/TIC/synopses/cwc.aspx)

After the invasion the Iraq Survey Group made assessments at Al Muthanna and found that looting and razing had taken place.

Exploitations of Al Muthanna
ISG conducted multiple exploitations of the Al Muthanna site to determine whether old chemical weapons, equipment, or toxic chemicals had been looted or tampered with since the last UN visit to the site. ISG is unable to unambiguously determine the complete fate of old munitions, materials, and chemicals produced and stored there.The matter is further complicated by the looting and razing done by the Iraqis.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/2004/isg-final-report/isg-final-report_vol3_cw-anx-b.htm

[500N]

TEEEJ

Thanks for that.

What I was reading the other day was that some chemicals remained in BULK storage with the comment they didn't think that ISIS could make any chem weapons but the fact that they were left caused concern.

I need to do a bit of research as it was only in the papers for a day, if that.

[TEEEJ]

No problem, 500N.

[Lonewolf_50]

Was this the strategy all along?

"Free them to kill each other, more or less their favorite hobby, and they'll leave others well enough alone."


Was that Bush's / Wolfowitz's / Rumsfeld's plan all along? :confused:

In this regard, the "Arab Spring" has been an immense success, as a serial strategy.

If there was one. (Not betting the house payment on that ... )

[AtomKraft]

Lone wolf.

No.

They could never think that far ahead.

Personally, I think the strategy was a very unfounded idea about 'kicking ass' as ones dad had failed to do.

There may be better theories, and if so, let's hear em.

It's easy to poke a hornets nest. Not so easy to stop them stinging.

[Lonewolf_50]

As I said: not betting the house payment on it. ;)

Redrawing lines on a map: often costs ample blood to achieve. Some things don't change.

[ShotOne]

Strategy? Being as the WMD strategy was apparently to bomb them into a lethally hazardous state, leave them where they are, then let murderous fanatics who hate us get hold of them, I wouldn't bet my own house on any particularly inspiring strategy.

[rh200]

They could never think that far ahead.

Actually I think you will find they where thinking far ahead, in this game its decades, 50 or a 100 years. The trouble is, people here are on the what i call Fast food thinking, another words there's a quick fix.

Iraqi was a perfect choice if you where going to do a democratic experiment, due to its unique demographics. The fact a d!ckhead got elected to the white house and had to go stuffing with things has upset the extremely delicate apple cart. Thats not to say it wouldn't have failed anyway.

All is not lost yet, it really depends on whether the Shia want to play hardball or not, and what, Jordan, Turkey and Iran's secret little long term plans are. I suspect though the Shia may not play it hard enough.

[ShotOne]

A number of reasons were put forward for the Iraq invasion but don't recall "democratic experiment" being amongst them. I'd be delighted to see evidence of that 50/100 year forward thinking, rh!

[onetrack]

rh200:The fact a d!ckhead got elected to the white house and had to go stuffing with things has upset the extremely delicate apple cartWhich d!ckhead are you referring to? That'd be Geedubya then? :E
Iraq's never been a balanced apple cart. A cart full of fruitcakes that's permanently unbalanced, is a better description.

[500N]

A cart full of fruitcakes that's permanently unbalanced, is a better description.

That was held together for years by another fruitcake but it worked !!!

[ORAC]

That was held together for years by another fruitcake but it worked !!! If genocide against the Kurds in the North and the Marsh Arabs in the south; an 8 year Iran-Iraq war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War) including the use of chemical weapons and a million war dead (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/23/iran-iraq-war-anniversary); then an invasion of Kuwait leading to GW I, 10 years of sanctions then GW II; let alone the brutality of the regime, is your definition of a successful regime, then it's a pretty sad reflection on the whole state of the region.

[500N]

You forgot to add (up until the invasion of Kuwait), fully supported by the US !!!

zaP7ZrmkcuU

[rh200]

but don't recall "democratic experiment" being amongst them.

Yes I could see that working as a method garnering support.

[rh200]

BBC News - Iraq confirms Syrian air strikes against Isis militants (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28033684)

A classic example of if you don't help your enemys will, never let a good crisis go to waste.

Speaking to the BBC, Mr Maliki said Iraq was buying Russian warplanes, which would arrive in a few days, as the US kept delaying the sale of F16 jets.

Who needs enemies when you have friends like Obama. Nope, delay weapons for Iraqi, nope won't help. No weapons for Ukraine, nope won't help.

Pity he couldn't blame the Ukraine situation on GWB, like he's trying to with Iraqi instead of his bumbling excuse of a presidency. F#$% me he has to be worse than Carter.

[Heathrow Harry]

70% of Americans support Obama on this one - no troops, maybe airstrikes

[NutLoose]

What I cannot get my head around is the west is siding with the rebels in Syria, but against them in Iraq, when they are one and the same, or part thereof..


BBC News - Syria hit Isis in Iraq with air strikes - Nouri Maliki (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28033684)

[500N]

Nutloose

I thought that was a bit strange as well.

[rh200]

What I cannot get my head around is the west is siding with the rebels in Syria, but against them in Iraq, when they are one and the same, or part thereof..

Nothing confusing at all. They are only supporting the "good" rebels. That is like minded rebels who only have goodness and democracy in their hearts. These are the same ones who are to take down the evil Syrian regime and vanquish the extremists.

F#$% there really needs to be a pissing yourself laughing icon.

[Hempy]

Mr Maliki also said that Iraq had bought a number of used Sukhoi fighter jets from Russia and Belarus.

He said the aircraft could be flying missions in Iraq "within a few days".

:eek: Here's some shiny new jets Brothers. You have 'a few days'!

[Stanwell]

Gentlemen,
May I refer you to some of T E Lawrence's (a/c Shaw) observations on this question?
IMHO, he got it pretty well right.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

'Seven Pillars of Wisdom' was in my aircrew kitbag for the Gulf War, and I wasn't the only one.

[NutLoose]

Quote:
Mr Maliki also said that Iraq had bought a number of used Sukhoi fighter jets from Russia and Belarus.

He said the aircraft could be flying missions in Iraq "within a few days".


So who's going to fly them? One does get the feeling there will be a cost involved from Russia, far above their price, it also treads on the USA's perceived sphere of influence, would be ironic if after pouring all that money into the Country, to find them turning back towards Russia. Serves the USA right for stalling over the supply if F16's

[rh200]

would be ironic if after pouring all that money into the Country, to find them turning back towards Russia. Serves the USA right for stalling over the supply if F16's

Yep, leave a power vacuum, and your potential enemy's will try and fill the void.

What worries me is there could be a significant amount of ex Saddam era forces who have a short learning curve on Russian gear. Hence if they get hold of it could utilise it quickly.

On the other hand with the F16's etc it would be a lot harder without outside support. Hence if the Shia had and could use high tech American equipment they could control the sky's indefinitely. Whilst the Sunni's are stuck on the ground then they just become a terrorist sub group than can be reasonable contained.

[TEEEJ]

Su-25s being airlifted into Iraq.

6zr3fnVXC4U&feature=related

[Boudreaux Bob]

The Russians seem to be doing a wonderful amount of Arms Deals thanks to Messrs Obama and Kerry's wonderful handling of International Affairs.:D

[The Sultan]

BB

I know it is hard for you to accept that after $3T and uncountable human cost Cheney's war for personal gain ended up as it has.

Any arms going to Iraq will eventually end up in Iran, so I guess you are an Iranian sympathizer? Neither side is worth one more dollar or a stubbed toe of our countrymen. Let the Russians destroy their economy for a change.

The Sultan

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

So, Iraq has half a million troops and more heavy armor than Luis Suarez could eat, facing about 4,000 nutters with AKs, yet are in "dire need" for a few fighter pilots to make the difference?

Despite the lack of modesty for which we are renowned, I imagine quite a few fighter pilots are thinking "hmmm....maybe not"



I mean, obviously, we each know we could personally make the difference;)...but Iraqi fighter pilots? ...I think not.

[aw ditor]

Perhaps we should send some Bristol Fighters. Worked well in Iraq a few years ago.

[NutLoose]

At least the Russians are playing one side, supporting the Syrian Government against the terrorists and the Iraqi Government against them too, unlike the west that supports the opposition in Syria, but the Government in Iraq, so are in effect playing both sides of the field.

I still cannot get my head around the fact the US and UK went into Iraq to get rid of Saddam and bring them democracy, now they have a "democratically" elected Government the US are not happy with the way it is working out sharing power and such, so want changes to it before they will help out.... So much for democracy. Listening to Hague on the news, what a slimy toad he is.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Sultan,

As usual the truth of a situation is missed by you.

Russia is playing it smart by SELLING Arms and Equipment.

Perhaps the concept escapes you but that is a simple business deal where one produces a product, markets it, locates customers who will pay money for it, and then a Deal is struck where the Seller profits from the transaction.

Do you see any Russians engaging in combat in Syria or Iraq?

As I recall, your pay check seems to show up on time and is based upon the continued sales of certain items to the US Government.

I would not be so quick to bite the Hand that is feeding you if I were you.

Perhaps if you were so opposed to all that you would have resigned your employment and volunteered for Occupy Wall Street or put on a Pink Dress.


Nutty,

What you are seeing is the Obama/Clinton/Kerry Foreign Policy in action!

When one is philosophically allied with a religious view it warps one's thinking.

One can argue that Obama is not as well founded in traditional American Values as we might desire and as such lacks an adequate Moral Compass by which to steer his actions.

For example, the US Supreme Court has voted Twelve times declaring Obama as violated the Constitution and the House of Representatives are moving forward on a Civil Suit re his failure to faithfully execute Federal Laws.

Former DNI, Michael Hayden, just this morning on Fox News Sunday, leaked the fact that Obama and his Attorney General Eric Holder (who himself is in Contempt of Congress), have decided to target only those Terrorists that can be tried in US Federal Court. That decision according to Hayden was made as a result of a policy of no longer sending ANYONE to Gitmo for interrogation or incarceration. That is a huge issue that we shall hear more of when the significance of that strikes home.

Hayden also brought up the historical division of the area by Europeans and that we are seeing a de facto division of the area along traditional tribal areas. He also suggested he did not see the current Iraqi government having the ability or motivation to restore the lost areas to their control.

[Mal Drop]

Ah, Fox news, that paragon of journalistic integrity, that would explain your massive lack of any actual idea and simplistic parroting of the daily GOP talking points.

As for being philosophically aligned with a religious view, the bible-waving chickenhawks of the GOP are going to find that their faux-christian views are dying out along with their base. Still, there is some good news for BB and his ilk - the next president will be white: what may not make him so happy is that she will be a Clinton.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Drunk already are you?

In case you have missed it, which if you are watching the DNC Propaganda outlets which most of you Progressives confuse as being "News", "Cankles" has let her rachet jaw get her into a lot trouble. She claimed to have been dead broke and struggling to get by. That flopped.

Her Book flopped and is going to cost her Publisher a wad of money.

Benghazi continues to expose her incompetence and deceit.

Chelsea's $600,000 Contract with one of your "News" outlets has been shown to be a Bribe of some sort to the Clintons.

Oh, do tell us about Fox being such a poor source of "News" as it is the Top Rated News Channel in the Country.

Odd how that can be with all the competition from the Left isn't it?

We have no fear of Cankles and Bubba moving back into the Big House, but perhaps we should have some concern how the One is forced to vacate the Premises in January '17.

[Mal Drop]

Fox is also the least trusted news outlet, so keep chugging that Republitard Kool-Aid BB. As for not worrying about Hillary? The GOP are going to be sh*tting themsleves in 2016 before a desperate search for scapegoats when they lose another presidential election - I just hope we get treated to live coverage of another Karl Rove meltdown, the last one was priceless.

[West Coast]

Ah, Fox news, that paragon of journalistic integrity, that would explain your massive lack of any actual idea and simplistic parroting of the daily GOP talking points.

Never a shortage of those willing to toss the brown stuff at Fox. A critical shortage of folks willing to back it up with a cogent argument laced with facts.

You're entitled to an opinion of course, it just doesn't appear to be an informed one and extends only to talking points oft repeated.

[Heathrow Harry]

" That decision according to Hayden was made as a result of a policy of no longer sending ANYONE to Gitmo"

didn't Obama stop referrals to GB in 2009 ????

and he was re-elected in 2012.............................

some people don't like the smell of democracy in action

the problem with GB is that CONGRESS refuses to allow prisoners there to be moved to the USA

[Stanwell]

Fox3,
Seven Pillars, in particular, should be 'required reading' before people start commenting on what's going on over there.
Not that's going to give us the answers when vested interests and shonky politicians are involved, of course.
'Twas ever thus.


Nutty,
The Russians have a huge 'Bargain Basement' sale going at the moment.
A couple of dozen F16s versus a hundred or so Su25s and Su31s ? - I think I know which store I'd be heading toward at the moment.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Well now I would have to beg to differ with those who see FOX in a negative light.

Now we know facts and the truth never interfere with a Libtard's Rant or World View but perhaps these stats might prove to be "an Inconvenient Truth" to our Lefties here.

PPP Poll: Fox News Most Trusted TV News Source for Fifth Straight Year (http://www.newsmax.com/US/media-poll-fox-TV/2014/01/31/id/550236/)

Granted FOX only garners a 35% Trust level but compare that to CNN and MSDNC folks. The numbers don't lie.


http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2014/06/27/cable-news-ratings-for-thursday-june-26-2014/277436/

[Mal Drop]

The PPP article which features that poll states that Fox is also the LEAST trusted. Direct from the PPP site (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2014/01/fox-news-once-again-most-and-least-trusted-name-in-news.html)

'Fox News also leads the 'least trusted' list in our annual poll. 33% give it that designation to 19% for MSNBC, 14% for Comedy Central, 11% for CNN, 5% for ABC, 4% for CBS, and 2% each for NBC and PBS.'

BB seems to be suffering from an acute case of Teavangelism and only seeing the side of the figures he likes.

[rh200]

Re News.

I generally find all the major news organizations about the same. That is they generally have the same stuff on in regards to major items, but they just put in a spin for their preferred readers.

This is just basic commerce at work, nothing insidious about it. If your a news organization and your preferred readership is from one side, do you write it in such away that the other side finds acceptable?


The sale of Russian hardware on a large scale is a bad thing long term, Why. The use and continued mentoring of Iraqi armned forces ove the next two or three decades was imperative, if Iraqi was going to solidify into a viable democratic state sometime in the last half of this century.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Drop,

The "Trust" factor is explained in this Polling Data.

Liberals trust the Media at double the rate Conservatives and Independents do. Now why ever would that be you wonder? Could it be the Media has a Liberal Bias?

Actually, that has been well documented to be the case. So it would patently obvious to a dull Third Grader why FOX would not be trusted by those on the Left.....just as why all of the major Media outlets are not trusted by Conservatives and Independents.

Exhibit 2-5: Gallup Polls on Media Bias | Media Research Center (http://www.mrc.org/media-bias-101/exhibit-2-5-gallup-polls-media-bias)


The problem with most folks is they fail to grasp the difference between FOX News programs and FOX Commentary Programming because at the other outlets there is no difference as all of their programming is thought to be "News" when it surely isn't.

Anyone that can construe Al Sharpton as being anything but a Black Racist and thinks anything he has to say is credible really must get out more. CNN, which we know as the Clinton News Network has about as many viewers total as that British fellow Piers Morgan or whatever his name was did.....and he got canned because any Pee Wee League Football Team pulled bigger audiences than he did.

CBS and Dan Blather set the standard for False Reporting as you may recall when Danny Boy knowingly ran a false story about Dubya just in time to cause problems in the upcoming election and finally got the Sack for having done so.

NBC well enough said already when they push Sharpton and that Ed guy on the American Public.

You do have to admit FOX does not seem to have such scandals in their News Programs.

[rh200]

CNN, which we know as the Clinton News Network has about as many viewers total as that British fellow Piers Morgan or whatever his name was did.....and he got canned because any Pee Wee League Football Team pulled bigger audiences than he did.

Clinton News Network, thats good:ok:

Anyway speaking of CNN, I see they had a piece on Obama and if he dropped the ball and created the current issue in Iraqi! Didn't bother reading it, but thought it was interesting they would even ask such a thing.

[Boudreaux Bob]

This article will give a bit of perspective on how the Liberal Media covers the News.

ABC, CBS, NBC cover up IRS, VA scandals but love Christie's bridge troubles | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/06/25/abc-cbs-nbc-cover-up-irs-va-scandals-but-love-christie-bridge-troubles/)

[Mal Drop]

And there you go again BB, picking massively biased sources to try and prop up your false arguments. The 'Media Research Centre' you cite in the first link is a right-wing organisation obsessed with 'liberal media' conspiracy theories.

To try and defend Fox News you then cite one of its own articles about the 'liberal media'. What you don't seem to understand BB, is that reality has a liberal bias.

As you have consistently failed to provide any evidence from credible sources to back up your deeply flawed 'arguments' it's not even worth my while continuing to point out what would be obvious to my neighbours spectacularly idiotic dog. The right are a busted flush and their blinkered political mindset is going the way of the dinosaurs. Give it a few generations and kids will be asking their parents if there really were Republicans.

Have fun on Tinfoil Hat Island.

[Heathrow Harry]

when the republican right has to bus in black Democrat voters to ensure their man wins a Republican Senate primary against the drooling, swivel eyed Tea party candidate you know they've reached the end of the line............. :cool::cool:

[Lonewolf_50]

And there you go again BB, picking massively biased sources Your own bias is pretty blatant. Each news organization has its own editorial spin. It has ever been thus.

[Hempy]

It's funny how every thread that is not directly related to aircraft turns into some Right Wing "Commo, Greenie, Leftie Socialists Are To Blame For Everything" wankfest perpetuated by a handful of repeat offenders. "The dogs that bark the loudest are the ones that are most afraid"...you guys must be terrified!

Can we give it a spell? Get a room and slather each other in loving kisses and get it out of your system. Just check your wallets when you leave..

[500N]

Get a room and slather each other in loving kisses

That's what the "Commo, Greenie, Leftie, fluffy luvvie socialists" do ;) :O

[Boudreaux Bob]

Harry, do get your facts straight please.

The RNC/GOP is not "the Right". They are Progressives and that is why they had to buy Black Democrat Votes in their effort to maintain that Senate Seat.

The "Tea Party", which is not a "Party" but rather a grass roots movement by Citizens who have a genuine "Conservative" view of politics and how our Government should be funded, run, and limited are the "Right" in this situation.

I certainly agree with the Conservative Movement within the Republican Party as I see both National Parties to be Progressives and consider that very bad for the future of this Nation.

Even in the UK and Europe, as well as here in the USA, we are seeing Push Back by those in our societies that see the damage done by Socialist/Progressive/Liberal agendas.

[West Coast]

Forgive them Bob, news snippets and they're suddenly experts running to log in.

[500N]

The US naming convention is very convoluted.

[West Coast]

With regard to what?

[Boudreaux Bob]

Please to remember we have our own problems understanding the Parliamentary System, Royalty, Tory's, Labour, Whig's, Wigs, Lords, MP's, Ministers, Counties, Territories, Councils, and all that to which you lot cling.:=

[Lonewolf_50]

Wasn't this thread originally about Al Qaeda and=or other various miscreants taking control of an Iraqi city? Fox news reporting that does not make it false, regardless of how it is spun.

[Stanwell]

Hempy, your post #183..
Thanks for that really good laugh. I can go to bed now.

[Robert Cooper]

Apparently it's not just cities anymore. ISIS have now declared a Muslim State in Iraq and Syria with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as Caliph.

Bob C

[500N]

Something more important than that, and that is that they have said all other groups must pay allegiance to the Islamic state, something I don't think will happen.

AQ unlikely.

That sets up a possible big clash between the two major groups.

[Lonewolf_50]

Something more important than that, and that is that they have said all other groups must pay allegiance to the Islamic state, something I don't think will happen.

AQ unlikely.

That sets up a possible big clash between the two major groups.

Arm them both to the teeth and watch, with much popcorn to hand. :ok:

[Boudreaux Bob]

Most of that "State" they are claiming they are very welcome to have!:E

[NutLoose]

Rumsfeld Claims a Trained Ape is Better Than President Obama ? Latest (http://latest.com/2014/03/rumsfeld-claims-a-trained-ape-is-better-than-president-obama/?utm_source=Outbrain_Geo)

:E

[rh200]

The way he speaks sounds like he is a cranky old man who wants everyone to know his opinion.

Umm, hasn't he always been like that.

That is not the way to get your point across in this day and age

Yep we are starting to see the problem with the new approach.

To maintain your credibility in the public eye, it is important to speak strongly but with an heir of respect and grace.

What like Obama,

Something Rumsfeld has not yet been able to master.
You keep going Rumstud, less bullsh!t is whats needed.:ok:

[Boudreaux Bob]

Actually, I find his remarks insulting to Apes.

I sometimes find myself agreeing with Mark Twain when he suggested God may have made the Monkey because he was so disappointed with Man.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Drop,

Check out the Viewer Stats......Who watches something they do not trust?


Second-Quarter 2014 Primetime Averages

FNC: 1,596,000 viewers, down 16 percent (267,000 adults 25-54, down 16 percent)
CNN: 459,000 viewers, down 31 percent (157,000 adults 25-54, down 31 percent)
MSNBC: 577,000 viewers, flat (160,000 adults 25-54, down 16 percent)
HLN: 338,000 viewers, down 35 percent (124,000 adults 25-54, down 30 percent)

Fox News Hits 50-Quarter Ratings Streak With Megyn Kelly on the Rise, Benghazi Still a Hot Topic (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/fox-news-exec-talks-50-715660)

[Heathrow Harry]

BB

Sorry but the rest of the world (and a lot of people in the USA) see the Tea party (their name not mine) as a bunch of swivel-eyed loons who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near any position of authority

[Boudreaux Bob]

That is because some are too willing to gulp down the Kool Aid that is peddled by the American Media without taking any time to consider the swill they produce.

Do you reckon the Media (being Liberal/Progressive), the Democrat Party (being Liberal/Progressive), the Republican Party (being controlled by Progressives), Wall Street (who are joined at the Hip with both the Democrats and Republican Party Leadership), all see the Tea Party Movement as a huge threat to their Agenda's and Control of far too much Money?

An example, Obama has been dealt twelve Unanimous Verdicts by the Supreme Court that declared his actions Un-Constitutional. Which on its face corroborates the Tea Party concern with the Federal Government taking on powers it does not have which was proved correct by the Supreme Court Decisions.

Who is the Loon here......the Tea Party Movement.....or those who fail to grasp the Truth?

The 2010 Elections were a disaster for the Democrats due to the Tea Party Movement. Both Political Parties immediately attacked the Tea Party Movement.

The RNC joined with the Better Business Bureau in a 50 Million Dollar campaign recently to attack the Tea Party Movement.

Yet, the Tea Party Movement inside the State of Virginia defeated Eric Cantor, the Second most powerful establishment Republican in the House of Representatives. The Tea Party Candidate's entire Campaign fund equalled the amount of money the Cantor Campaign spent on Dinners in swank Steak Houses.

Down in Mississippi, we see another Tea Party Candidate battling it out with a long term Sitting Senator who is very much an Establishment Republican. That fight is not over now that there are complaints of "Vote Buying" which could lead to the Senator being removed from the Election or even from his Office.

Again......who is the Loon?

The Tea Party Movement is a grass roots movement that is a direct challenge to the Progressives in both Parties which do not want to give up their control. As the current polling show over 70% of the American People see this Country going in the wrong direction, Government having an approval rating in the single digits, Congress itself having an approval rating that is hardly worth measuring, and a Media whose approval rating is not much above that of Congress and the Government......again who is the Loon?

I attended the first Tea Party Gathering in Washington DC.....along with well over a Million other people. There were some Loons there but only a hand full. The very great majority were ordinary folk who care about the future of this Nation and do so in a polite, healthy, quiet, dignified way.

We have worked to elect Candidates to Public Office that share our views, we attend our local government meetings and engage our public officials as they carry out their duties, and we do so in a polite way.

When Leftist Radicals threatened to deface Memorials in Washington DC, we went there and protected the Memorials....peacefully. When Obama ordered all the War Memorials shut down preventing WWII Honor Flight Participants from gaining access to their Memorial.....we removed the Barrycades....peacefully.

The Movement is growing, the Courts are confirming we are right in our thinking, and anyone that thinks we are just a bunch of Loons......are Loons.

When supporting the Rule of Law, obeying the Constitution, protecting our borders, limiting the power of the government, and protecting individual freedom is seen to be something that only a Loon could embrace.....then I suggest those that think that are the real Loons.

[Hempy]

Fcuk this world is a scary place...

[Boudreaux Bob]

When folks talk about shooting politicians I suggest they are quite wrong in their thinking.

I would start with shooting Journalists.

The foundation of any democratic society is a well informed Citizenry.


Current trust in Media of any form in the USA does not rise above 22%

Dig this......MSDNC even is complaining about the lack of coverage of scandal stories. Which is definitely the Pot calling the Kettle.

Morning Joe Spells Out Why Conservatives Don’t Trust National Newspapers and Broadcast News (http://www.ijreview.com/2014/06/151220-morning-joe-spells-conservatives-dont-trust-national-newspapers-broadcast-news/)

[Lonewolf_50]

BB

Sorry but the rest of the world (and a lot of people in the USA) see the Tea party (their name not mine) as a bunch of swivel-eyed loons who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near any position of authorityHow is that different from your Parliament?

Here's a hint: it isn't. ;)

Back on topic, it appears that Mr Al Maliki may be nearing the end of his time in office.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10937587/Nouri-al-Malikis-future-in-doubt-as-Iraq-parliament-fails-to-elect-new-leadership.html

This little insurrection from the lads in ISIS/ISIL have not helped him in the polls.
Sucks to be him.

[Lonewolf_50]

Samarra
Samarra
They'll bomb it
Tomorrow
It's only one round away ...

NBC News - Breaking News & Top Stories - Latest World, US & Local News (http://www.nbcnews.com/#/storyline/iraq-turmoil/mortars-fired-samarra-mosque-stoke-fears-renewed-iraq-civil-war-n145101)

Looks like some deja vu all over again, with Samarra once again being a center of peace, love, and understanding for the Iraqis to disagree upon.

Lay on, MacDuff (or Ali or Abdul)
And damned be he who first cries:

Hold! Enough!

EDIT: IT gets better (http://www.nbcnews.com/#/storyline/iraq-turmoil/mortars-fired-samarra-mosque-stoke-fears-renewed-iraq-civil-war-n145101).
The leader of Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham, the Sunni insurgent group rampaging across Iraq, called on Muslims on Tuesday to join his fight. “Rush O Muslims to your state. Yes, it is your state,” Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi said. He said that terrorism is a way for Muslims to live honorably and “insist upon your rights.” He also said the world is split between Islam and the forces of “disbelief and hypocrisy,” including the United States, Russia and Jews. Yep, the problems are all from non Muslims from somewhere else. Stick to the script, Abu, you are a child of your environment.

The statement, described as a Ramadan message, was released by a jihadist website and translated by a media arm of ISIS, which announced over the weekend that it would shorten its name. “The Muslims today have a loud, thundering statement, and possess heavy boots,” the statement said. “They have a statement that will cause the world to hear and understand the meaning of terrorism, and boots that will trample the idol of nationalism, destroy the idol of democracy and uncover its deviant nature.”
If not covering my womenfolk in burlap bags is deviant, then let deviance reign!

[Boudreaux Bob]

The Tea Party is getting a bit Stroppy it would appear!

Americans Fight Back - Protesters Block Obama's Buses Transferring Illegals, Force Them to Retreat (Video) | Top Right NewsTop Right News (http://toprightnews.com/?p=4170)

[eastern wiseguy]

Why has this not been dispatched to Jet Blast 'cos the gang's all here.?

[Lonewolf_50]

The Tea Party is getting a bit Stroppy it would appear!

Americans Fight Back - Protesters Block Obama's Buses Transferring Illegals, Force Them to Retreat (Video) | Top Right NewsTop Right News (http://toprightnews.com/?p=4170)

Bob, what has that to do with Iraq and various goings on of militant Islamists, which is the topic of this thread ... allegedly. :confused:

[Boudreaux Bob]

For a start perhaps say maybe "Border Security"?

[Lonewolf_50]

Bob, Iraq had no border security about ten years ago when I was in theater, and there was a coordinated US air and ground effort to establish/enforce same.

There is no reason to believe that with us gone, the nitwits who live there locally can, without a coherent air/ground effort, achieve same. They are at best hapless, despite the best efforts of a lot of US and coalition folks to train them and teach them to be professionals. Think ARVN, without the solid Viet Namese work ethic.

This problem in Iraq has bloody fk all to do with our border issues, which are profound and are worthy of their own thread in JB. (Or in the politics hamster wheel).

Iraq's current government is dealing with a sizeable "enemy within" who are armed and pissed off, having been disenfranchised when Saddam was taken down, and having been abused by Maliki and his cronies for the past few years. Standard Middle East corruption. These annoyed citizens provide fertile ground for the radicals to swim among (per Mao's red book) and to recruit from and to get aid from in conducting a rebellion.

My sincer hope is that this civil war goes on with greater intensity, not less, and that they slaughter one another until they are sick of it. Once that end state is reached, that they are sick of killing one another, they can rebuild a nation together, or put together a few nations together.

They aren't tired of the fight, so let the fight continue.

Invest in body bag futures.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Better yet AK ammo and RPG Warhead factories!

As you rightly suggest the only way they will give it up is when they finally realize the Eye for an Eye thing only results in lots of Blind folk. As this has been going on since 632AD we can only hope that technology and loads of Oil Money fuels the process so they can become very efficient in their endeavors to slay one another!

Every time I watch yet another video of public executions of the other side by whoever happens to win in a local fuss, I cannot help but wonder just why they remain so resilient. Most folks after seeing a few hundred thousand of their fellows offed by the Oppo's would realize the futility of it all.

Does that make them dedicated or just plain stupid as a Race of People?

[Ronald Reagan]

RAW: Russian Sukhoi jets land in Baghdad to boost fight against ISIS - YouTube (http://youtu.be/WnXPQsUn8Ak)

[Trim Stab]

The USA has been backing the wrong horses in the Middle East for the past forty years at least - two diametrically opposite fundamentalist groups - the Sunni Arabs in the Gulf States and the racist state of Israel.

If the USA had chosen to back the real voice of moderate Islam in the Middle East - the Shiites - thirty years ago when the last Shah of Iran was overthrown we would not have these conflicts.

[500N]

Is that a Russian Airforce jet to be flown by Russian pilots
or a Russian jet to be flown by Iraqis pilots ?

[TEEEJ]

That RT video shows Iranian Revolutionary Guard Su-25 arriving in Iraq.

The national markings have been painted over, but the nose numbers have been left on.

ah7HP6d42m8&feature=related

[500N]

Thanks.

What a turn up, Iran and Iraq !

[TEEEJ]

No problem, 500N. The Iranians have painted out the national insignia and tail-serials but left the nose numbers on.

56 is serial 15-2456

Photos: Sukhoi Su-25K Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Iran---Revolutionary/Sukhoi-Su-25K/2067691/L)

[500N]

You have to wonder why they bother considering how easy it is for those to look it up.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how long before they are put to work !

Israel won't be happy !

[Lonewolf_50]

You have to wonder why they bother considering how easy it is for those to look it up.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how long before they are put to work !

Israel won't be happy !
Sure they will.

More target practice. :p

Trim Stab: nice moderates, the Shia, like Hezbollah. Where do you come up with this stuff?

Your oversimplification is wrong on a lot of levels, but you are correct about the tension between old associated and new associates.

It is very easily explained;
Oil Embargo, 1973.
There was a sea change in policy and relationships from that.

[Trim Stab]

Lonewolf - history will judge in the long-term that Churchill was correct to oppose Roosevelt's judgement to create the state of Israel after WW2. We have paid the penalty for that for decades, and will go on paying the penalty for centuries. We should have pursued Churchill's plan to reintegrate displaced diaspora into their homelands after WW2.

"Hizbollah" - or whatever you want to call it - is just the tip of an iceberg of a very justifiable reaction against the appalling misjudgement of Roosevelt after WW2.

If the USA wants to have peace in the ME they just need to tell Israel to shut the **** up, recognise Palestinian state-hood, stay within their borders, and stop antagonising their neighbours.

If the US treats Iran with the respect that it deserves, the relationship will be recipricol.

[rh200]

rim Stab: nice moderates, the Shia, like Hezbollah. Where do you come up with this stuff?

Actually its all an over simplification. The Whole Iraqi thing revolved around the Arab ****e's being a bit more amenable than the Persian ones. Taking into account the whole we freed you thing.

On a whole thats been roughly true, but practicalities are a funny thing. In reality there is no loyalty, there is only convenience at the time. Hence Iran and the Russki's are on the rise. It comes down to the old adage, if you don't support your national interests, then your enemy will support their's.

"Hizbollah" - or whatever you want to call it - is just the tip of an iceberg of a very justifiable reaction against the appalling misjudgement of Roosevelt after WW2.

Thats your opinion, but frankly their the only nation in an area of what can only be called full of savages (statistically) that has any resemblance civility. That alone is worth putting up with the cr@p that goes with it.

If the USA wants to have peace in the ME they just need to tell Israel to shut the **** up, recognise Palestinian state-hood, stay within their borders, and stop antagonising their neighbours.

Simple chicken or the egg syndrome. Question is you have to choose. I choose not to reward savagery and terrorism. Its simple when start acting like civilized human beings you will get treated like one. Until then Israel can do what they like.

Good clear boundary conditions are whats needed.

[parabellum]

If the USA wants to have peace in the ME they just need to tell Israel to shut the **** up, recognise Palestinian state-hood, stay within their borders, and stop antagonising their neighbours.


Trim Stab - You seem to have conveniently forgotten that, more than once, but particularly at Camp David, Yasser Arafat was offered over 90% of their demands, some say 95%, but refused to compromise. Israel has already accepted Palestinian statehood, offered it to them on a plate and the PLO, backed by terrorist organisations like Hezbollah, turned it down. If you think that hiding behind the skirts of your women folk and the prams of your children whilst carrying out bombings of civilians, kidnap and murder is a, "very justifiable reaction" then one can only feel sorry for your very twisted comprehension.


The Jews have lived in what is now called Israel for 3000 years and their descendants have as much right to be there as the descendants of the Palestinians.

[Robert Cooper]

As I see it, Israel is the only country in the region that permits citizens of all faiths to worship freely and openly; around 20 percent of Israeli citizens are not Jewish, with most of them being Arab; and while Jews are not permitted to live in many Arab countries, Arabs are granted full citizenship, have the right to vote in Israel, and have served in the Knesset. Consider this: Arabs living in Israel have more rights and are freer than most Arabs living in Arab countries, with Arab women in Israel enjoying the same rights and status as men.

As for a two-state solution: Israel has repeatedly offered the Palestinians their own homeland–at Camp David in 2000, in Taba in 2001, and again (from Ehud Olmert) in 2008. The offers were enormously generous: Palestinian statehood, the West Bank, Gaza, the division of Jerusalem, and more. The reaction? Palestinian rejection, followed in some cases by a new intifada. That rejection still exists to this day.

On the matter of “land for peace,” Israel has shown its good faith repeatedly. For example, Israel offered to return all the land it captured during the 1967 war in exchange for peace and normal relations. The offer was rejected in August 1967, when Arab leaders met in Khartoum and adopted a formula that became known as the “three no’s”: no peace with Israel, no negotiation with Israel, and no recognition of Israel.

Bob C

[The Sultan]

BB wrote:

Russia is playing it smart by SELLING Arms and Equipment.

What is your point BB? Selling weapons is way down on the priority list versus not sending our troops into war to keep the original 2003 invasion based upon false pretenses with all the costs in fortune and lives not being seen for what it was: THE LARGEST OMNI SHAMBLES IN US HISTORY! It is clear to all that the neocon invasion of Iraq was a mistake which Shrub did not comprehended (dad and Colin did!). Cheney just took his profits to offshore accounts.

The Sultan

[Boudreaux Bob]

Working for a Defense Contractor and dissing the folks that keep you employed sounds a bit unkind there Sultan.:=

If you really believed that crap you would have sought alternative employment I would have thought.

Perhaps your convictions are not as strong as you would have us think.

[GreenKnight121]

Trim Stab
What about the establishment of the Palestinian Mandate post -WW1 in a bi-lateral action between the UK and France - after the US wisely wanted no part of such a stupid idea.

And the British promises to the Jewish factions that they would have their own nation - which set off the Zionist expansions in the 1920s & 30s, and directly created the situation in Palestine/Israel in 1947-49?

Trying real hard to shift the blame that properly lies on the UK to the US just won't work.

[Hempy]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Balfour_portrait_and_declaration.JPG

Considering the promises the British made to the Arabs through Lawrence in order to garner their armed support against the Turks, this pretty much 'started it all' in regards to the situation there now.

Although the US has supported Israel since it's inception, it's more due to powerful Jewish American lobby groups and the need for a regional 'safety valve' * than it is for their human rights record....

* Although various Muslims sects might hate each other, they unite under a common hatred of the Jews. Israel would need to fall before any future threat/conflict extended beyond the Middle East.

Both sides would demand it for their own security/philosophy.

[AtomKraft]

Hempy
That declaration had one simple purpose: to screw the French in the Great Game.

In this, it succeeded.......but at what a cost. :(

[enginesuck]

Saudi Arabia 'Deploys Troops To Iraq Border'

Last Updated 09:19 03/07/2014
Saudi Arabia has deployed 30,000 troops to its border with Iraq, according to reports.

The move comes after Iraqi soldiers withdrew from the area, news agency Reuters reported, quoting Saudi-owned Al Arabiya TV.

The Dubai-based satellite channel showed a video on its website which it said showed some 2,500 Iraqi soldiers in the desert area east of the Iraqi city of Karbala after they abandoned their posts, leaving the border area with Saudi Arabia and Syria unguarded.

An Iraqi officer in the video said the Iraqi soldiers had been ordered to quit their posts for no apparent reason.

"We received an order to withdraw, we didn't know why," he said.

The authenticity of the recording has not been independently verified.

The world's top oil exporter shares an 800-km (500-mile) border with Iraq, where ISIS insurgents and other Sunni Muslim militant groups seized towns and cities in a lightning advance last month.

Saudi's King Abdullah has ordered "all necessary measures" to protect the kingdom against potential "terrorist threats", state news agency SPA reported.

More follows...

[Hempy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/01/isis-destroy-kaaba-mecca_n_5547635.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

Probably because they're moving on the Saudi border. I 'admire' the pluck, but this is starting to look like Barbarossa. A couple of thousand ISIS fighters might scare an Iraqi army that couldn't be described as elite, but they'll be biting off more than they can chew if they give Iran and/or the Saudis an excuse to come on in.

[Boudreaux Bob]

Three Arrests of Persons on a Terrorist Watch List was announced last night.

All were apprehended after they entered the USA from Mexico.

Knowing the success rate our Customs, Immigration, and Border Control Operations have, the question begged is how many thousand were not apprehended over the past few Years.

[500N]

Hempy

I really don't get that or what they are trying to achieve/

"If Allah wills, we will kill those who worship stones in Mecca and destroy the Kaaba. People go to Mecca to touch the stones, not for Allah."

Especially as "If indeed the statement is from an ISIS member, it's a shocking one even for them, considering that ISIS has been attempting to increase recruitment from Muslims worldwide by declaring the restoration of an Islamic Caliphate."

According to John L. Esposito, Professor of Religion and International Affairs and of Islamic Studies at Georgetown University, "In terms of legitimacy- unless you're someone who's ready to join a terrorist group at this point, for the vast majority of Muslims there is no legitimacy with this group." This most recent threat reinforces Esposito's point, particularly as it comes during the holy month of Ramadan.

[Lonewolf_50]

This young man (http://www.nbcnews.com/#/storyline/iraq-turmoil/british-jihadist-abdul-raqib-amin-recounts-journey-join-isis-n149431)explains why he goes to ISIS and fights.

Fits the typical terrorist profile: educated, middle class, has a chip on his shoulder.

[melmothtw]

It's just pure narcissism. Radical Islam endows the otherwise seemingly meaningless lives of a particular strata of young men with a sense that they somehow have a higher purpose. If there wasn't global jihadism to latch on to, they would just as quickly find some other cause with which to allign themselves.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

This may interest:
The life of a jihadi wife: Why one Canadian woman joined ISIS's Islamic state - World - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/the-life-of-a-jihadi-wife-why-one-canadian-woman-joined-isis-s-islamic-state-1.2696385)

I note that her husband died when his hidden suicide belt was triggered by the other party detonating a hidden suicide belt, and this is two Sunni Islamist groups reportedly finalising a peace treaty.

I find it difficult to think of the term "higher purpose" when reading of such actions as bringing suicide belts to a peace treaty between 'fellow' believers.

[NutLoose]

Blimey, the Arab world would have been up in arms if we did this

BBC News - In pictures: Isis destroys Iraq shrines (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28177841)

[melmothtw]

I find it difficult to think of the term "higher purpose" when reading of
such actions as bringing suicide belts to a peace treaty between 'fellow'
believers.


By 'higher purpose' I mean a cause that is bigger than their own individual selves, not that it is superior or enlightended in any way. Definitely not that.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I think I got your meaning; but this is not a logical application of the Koran, and therefore has no purpose, never mind no "higher purpose". The conflict against the Shia has a purpose for some Sunni, as it is possible to conceive of the Shia as heretics, and therefore non-muslim, but there's no excuse/justification for turning up to a peace treaty with fellow Sunni, wearing a suicide belt

[Torque Tonight]

Blimey, the Arab world would have been up in arms if we did this


Don't worry, I'm sure we'll get blamed for it anyway.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

There is no muslim country in the Arab world which allows full freedom of religion.

[TEEEJ]

TEHRAN — State media reported Saturday that an Iranian military pilot was killed in Iraq, the first confirmation that Iranian forces are involved in the Iraqi government’s battle to repel an offensive by al-Qaeda-inspired extremists.

IRNA, Iran’s official news agency, did not provide details of how or when the pilot was killed but said he died defending holy places in the Iraqi city of Samarra, which is home to an important Shiite pilgrimage site.

Iran confirms death of Iranian pilot in Iraq - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/iran-confirms-death-of-iranian-pilot-in-iraq/2014/07/05/67d3cb91-af7d-4efd-9fdb-97a28a5965af_story.html)

[Lonewolf_50]

On the one hand, that's a fellow pilot, doing his duty, and getting hit while on a mission. Sort of like any of us.

On the other hand, that's what Iran gets for meddling in Iraq, regardless of motive or need.

Welcome to the scrum, friends in Iran, may you have as much joy of it as we did.

[500N]

I would think being in the IG you expect casualties, as do most combat units.

Will be interesting to here how it occurred.

[Lonewolf_50]

BBC News - In pictures: Isis destroys Iraq shrines (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28177841)

In other news, ISIS is desecrating and destroying mosques in Iraq.

I note the cricket chirping from the global community.

Had the coalition done such while I was over there, the outrage all over the planet would have created global warming without a single fossil fuel droplet being burned.

World heritage sites and all ... the Islamists in this group really don't care.
Lay on MacDuff, a whole bucket load of you all wanted us out of Iraq.
We are out.
You are welcome to the inevitable result.

Dear Mr Maliki and your cronies:
You were not willing to accept a standard SOFA that we have with most of our our allies.
So we left and you were left to sit there with your pride intact.
You reap what you sow, lad, wallow in it.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

ISIS are not desecrating anything but idolatrous symbols; to radical Sunni, the Shia are heretics.

However, I agree with your other points Lone, should be interesting to see how the PC crowd react to this one. A glorious silence I expect.

..and damned be he who first cries "Hold, enough!"

Exeunt, fighting. Alarums.

[skydiver69]

Coalition forces also tried to avoid fighting during Ramadan to minimise offence to Muslims, yet ISIS see the period as a virtuous time to fight.

[ORAC]

Islamic State seizes major Syrian oil fields, aids Assad regime (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/07/18/233776/islamic-state-seizes-major-syrian.html?sp=/99/100/&ihp=1)

ISTANBUL — Extremist fighters of the Islamic State, already in control of a third of Iraqi territory, are on the attack in Syria, where they’ve seized more oil fields, facilitated the Assad regime’s advance in Aleppo and started a new offensive against Kurds, Syrian opposition figures say.

The Islamic State now controls more than 35 percent of Syrian territory, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a London-based pro-rebel group, reported Friday. Its holdings include nearly all of Syria’s oil and gas fields. The latest gain of the self-proclaimed “caliphate” was the seizure Thursday of the oil field in the desert at Palmyra, after the takeover of the country’s biggest oil fields, in Deir el Zour in eastern Syria, earlier in the week.........

The other major front in northern Syria is around the predominantly Kurdish border town of Ain al Arab, or Kobane in Kurdish, where Islamic State forces are said to be attacking from three directions.

In an assault that started at the beginning of July and apparently is aimed at splitting the predominantly Kurdish Rojava region and seizing another border crossing with Turkey, the Islamic State has been deploying tanks, rockets, heavy machine guns and U.S.-supplied Humvees the group took from the Iraqi army when it overran Mosul and other cities in northern Iraq in early June.......

Idriss Nassan, the deputy foreign affairs minister in the self-proclaimed Kurdish canton of Kobane, said the Islamic State..... had attacked and seized Kurdish villages in its path.... [and] that at least four of their fighters had died after the Islamic State deployed chemical weapons, and they’ve sent tissue samples to Turkish labs to be examined.

Nassan said the entire adult population of 500,000 in the region had been mobilized and everyone was armed or would be. In addition, he said hundreds of fighters from the Kurdistan Workers’ Party _ the PKK in its Kurdish initials _ and other volunteers had crossed in from Turkey to support the fight.........