My dad - super nav' or just lucky?

[Landroger]

My late father joined up from a reserved occupation in about 1942 and wanted to be a navigator. He was thus one of the few of his intake who got what he wanted. After that, it gets a bit vague.

I know he trained in South Africa - Kyalami and East London I think - gaining his N wings. I know that ordinarily he would have been posted to a squadron and that, given the loss rate in '43, I would probably not be here. However, I think my dad had been found to be rather good a navigating and he was chosen to do the next big thing; 'Master bomber'. Mum and dad were married about a week after the Dam Busters raid.

After that, he still wasn't posted to a squadron, but sent for Pathfinder training. After that, low level a la Armiens and Shell Copenhagen - which he hated, with tour served Mosquito and Beaufighter drivers being told to fly at naught feet to test dad with 'left at the Red Cow' and 'Right at St. Andrews'. Still no squadron and then on to 'Long Distance Over Water', which could only mean the Far East.

Then they dropped the bomb and dad did 'Copper Beating' until he was demobbed in late '45 or early '46. I was born in December '46! It wasn't until we lost him in 1996 that I realised just how meticulous he was and why he was obviously such a skilled navigator. Why he didn't go to BOAC or any other airline post war, I don't know. They had plenty of top pilots, but probably not too many top navigators.

The thing is, where and how do I start looking for records? So far as I know, he didn't keep his log book - I assume Nav's had them too? - but I would love to know what aircraft he flew and from where.

Also there is one intriguing story from his time in South Africa. On one or perhaps his final cross country navex the pilot - a SAAF Afrikaans pilot - deviated from dads instructions, to do a low level beat up of his family farm ..... and crashed the aeroplane. The pilot demanded that dad falsify his navigation plot to show they should have been over the farm, but dad refused and I believe there was a frightful row. The pilot went on to become a noted South African golfer on the international circuit, but it wasn't Gary Player. Any idea who?

After he was demobbed, dad never flew again until BEA took him to somewhere in German in the late fifties or even sixties, but I guess you could say he had a good war?

Roger

[smujsmith]

Roger,

Your dad falls right in the era covered in the Military forums "premier thread" - Gaining a Pilots Brevet in WW2. Don't worry about the title, its a very gregarious thread. I would suggest that posting this on that thread may well elicit a good response from people who were there. I'm sure too that the current contributors would welcome your input re your fathers training and further experience.

Smudge:ok:

[Landroger]

Thank you Smudge, I shall move it directly.

Roger

[Basil]

Landroger, I'm surprised that his logbook wasn't stashed away somewhere in his belongings. I guess it's too late now to have a careful search.
As I get older I regret not speaking to older people and/or family who were in WW1 & 2. Ref para 1 - too late now.
Good luck.

[Landroger]

I know exactly what you mean Basil and there is just a chance that it's upstairs i the loft somewhere, but I certainly don't remember seeing anything like a log book.

Tell me about not talking to people! Mum and dad died nearly twenty years ago, but hardy a week goes by when I don't think of something I want to ask mum. :sad: Thanks for the thought.

Roger

[Hempy]

Can't help you otherwise, but I've heard that Bobby Locke was a bit of a handful to deal with!

[Landroger]

Can't help you otherwise, but I've heard that Bobby Locke was a bit of a handful to deal with!

Ah, now! That really is a name to conjure with. Thank you.

Roger

[Landroger]

The very quickest of Googles and I get this:

His career was interrupted by World War II, during which he served in the South African Air Force.

Suddenly, I really think you've given me gold dust Hempy - I just know it was him! I have a Saffa friend, I must get him to find out a bit more. Thanks again.

Roger

[GalleyTeapot]

Would the Disclosures branch at Cranwell be able to help?

[pzu]

OK it's from Wikipedia, but I believe it's reasonably accurate

Locke was an SAAF pilot and from Dec '44 - May '45 was at Aqir in Palestine at an HCU(?) then from May '45 to 31 SAAF at Foggia as a second pilot on Liberators, with the war being over 31 was by then primarily on Transport duties

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Bobby Locke War Record?? - goo Wikipedia (???????) (http://wpedia.goo.ne.jp/enwiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Bobby_Locke_War_Record)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[Archimedes]

HCU = Heavy Conversion Unit, i.e. a training unit for those converting to 'heavies', as Locke did (forgive me if the question mark was cut and pasted in from Wiki).

[Hipper]

The RAF Disclosure unit mentioned is here:


RAF Community - Request for Information from Service Records (http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/support/requestforinformationfromservicerecords.cfm)


Some years ago it was at Innsworth and I was able to get my father's service record, costing £30. It was worth it. I got five A3 sheets of info covering his twenty-two year career, including courses attended, promotions, squadrons etc..


They contain a lot of acronyms some of which I still don't know what they mean but this site will help:


RAFRA - Royal Air Force Acronyms and Abbreviations (http://www.associations.rafinfo.org.uk/acronyms.htm)


From this I was able to put together a CV of his RAF career. I also had access to his log book which tells you all his flights, aircraft and name of pilot. Finding that log book would be the best thing you can do.


RAF Operations Record Books (ORBs) are on microfilm at The National Archive, Kew, and they have logbook type lists plus additional notes on those flights including probably all the crew as well as other squadron info.


Once you know a squadron there may be a squadron association or historian.


My father did thirty Bomber Command sorties in 1942/43 and I asked a historian if there was anything significant about any of that and he said 'no, except he survived'.

[GlobalNav]

Quote: "My father did thirty Bomber Command sorties in 1942/43 and I asked a historian if there was anything significant about any of that and he said 'no, except he survived'."

My goodness. Thank you to your father and all the men who climbed back on after their first combat sortie and then did it over and over and over again - I don't know how they did it. But to me THAT and their combat skill is what is significant - "historian" my A$$.

On this day, June 6, we remember those who put it all on the line in Normandy.

All I can say is THANK YOU and WELL DONE!

[pzu]

My Dad had a saying about his War service

"Had a Good war, a) I survived & b) They made me an 'Officer & Gentleman' "

Volunteered for RAF to avoid 'the trenches' - he was from Burnley and lots of his school pals had family that had served in WW1 (East Lancs etc)

Was AC2 then LAC at Driffield (15 Aug 1940), to M/East as an Aerial Rigger on 401 AMES then back to UK for A/G training then to M/East again to 1675HCU and then to £$ & 31SAAF on Liberators ops included Ploesti (by night), Danube (mining), Warsaw (supplies) and a few others

Demobbed & then rejoined and became an ATCO

Not bad for a 'pattern maker' from Burnley

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[Archimedes]

As an aside, a fair number of the squadron record books are now digitised and can be downloaded in pdf format for the grand sum of £3.30 (which is less than a coffee and a rather dry piece of chocolate cake in the cafe at Kew).

For instance - as we mentioned Bobby Locke's squadron -

31 Squadron SAAF Summary of events (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D8410665)

[Hipper]

GlobalNav - the historian didn't mean that phrase 'no, except he survived' in a bad way. Nor did I intend it to show the historian in a bad way. He was a squadron historian so understood what went on.


Losses were so high that to survive was significant. It was the 'survived' aspect that I wanted to emphasize for Landroger and his dad. His father going into Pathfinders, which was voluntary wasn't it, meant doing a minimum of forty five ops to complete a tour I believe.


Combat skill, as I understand it, got you so far, but you needed a lot more then that to survive.


I agree with your sentiments about how on earth they got back in the aircraft after their first sortie. I assume a lot of it was that they did not want to let their crew mates down.

[GlobalNav]

Hipper - Sorry I reacted precipitously to your historian's response.

Kudos and great thanks your father, mine and the others who faithfully did their duty. Thankfully, like your father and mine, they also survived the great ordeal long enough to become fathers.