Expo 2014 Sywell

[sharpend]

For those of you who are flying in to Sywell for the Expo Fri/Sat/Sun, you will have noticed that arrivals are 1 -2 every minute. This can be just as dangerous as flying in the Battle of Britain. Mortality then was not too good. So can I ask you to:

1. Stick to your slot time.
2. Keep you eyes wide open.
3. Look with your ears. You know what this means.
4. Do not land on the numbers, then taxy all the way up the runway at 5 knots.
5. Be aware of what is behind you and be considerate.
6. Follow the instructions given in the NOTAM.
7. Above all, have Situational Awareness.
8. If you have to go-around due to someone not doing the above, then follow the rules above, yet again.

If we all do the above, hopefully will not be any tears. Or Air Rage.

Enjoy. See you there?

[BEagle]

....and do NOT pass your life history over the RT!

;)

See you, Blunty!

[robin]

.. and please, if you have a slow performance aircraft, like the gyrocopter that got in front of us last year, don't cut in on a shortened circuit.

My pilot was so shaken up by the arrival from the Pitford hold that he was a nervous wreck on finals, made worse by the gyrocopter struggling to keep a decent speed on approach.

If I had been driving I would have gone round, but he was in overload.

[this is my username]

.... and please don't post on forums afterwards about how your arrival was perfect but everyone else was too fast / slow / flew too large / small a circuit etc.

Always remember that you won't have seen the aircraft that you carved up on the way in!

[Jan Olieslagers]

If those concerns are real, then I know where NOT to fly.

[hegemon88]

I have a slot for Saturday but am having second thoughts now...

[thing]

Been asked to go but luckily have an excuse not to. Five squillion a/c all trying to land at once ain't my idea of fun.

[robin]

If those concerns are real, then I know where NOT to fly.

Its certainly worth going to and I'll be going again

I've happily been into many events where the skies are full in the circuit. My only problem with Sywell is that the instructions are massive and lots of people don't bother to read them.

I really don't like the Pitsford hold. It's worse than an OHJ and very difficult to spot traffic. The only radio call is on finals so you don't build up much of a picture of what's about.

Faster aircraft are mixing it with slower as they stream to the same finals position and only then do you know if the aircraft in front or alongside is positioning for the grass or the hard.

It's a real test for the Mk1 Eyeball!

[Echo Romeo]

I have a slot for Saturday but am having second thoughts now...



Ah yes, this sounds reminiscent of the LAA rally, I suspect the joining
procedure is the same.

On the 3 occasions I've flown into the rally, 95% of those attending adhered to the joining procedure, its the bloody 5% who don't, you need to worry about, the mavericks who just do their own thing regardless!

And yes, I'd include myself in the former. Good luck :ok:

[bingoboy]

I would ask is that folk who can approach v slowly maintain a reasonable speed until short finals and either land long if on hard or clear the runway as soon as safe if on grass.

[sharpend]

After last year's problems, I spoke to ATC who stated that they would not condone any other RT call than finals. Of course this means that, especially in less than perfect viz, one has no idea where other aircraft are. Add to this the problem of pilots not following the same approach path from the hold, arriving at the wrong time or worse still, arriving without a slot, not having read the NOTAM (that happened) and/or flying variable speeds (the one ahead of me was flying at 50 knots, my VAT is 65 its) was a recipe for problems.

95 % of us are professional, but it only needs one crow to scatter the pigeons.

Keep you eyes open.

[Mariner9]

Jeez, there are some doom merchants on this thread.

Yes, the skies are busy, and yes, some don't comply with the procedures.

Hasn't stopped me and thousands of other pilots flying in sucessfully each and every year though.

I'll be flying in on Saturday and Sunday, weather permitting.

[sharpend]

Mariner 9, if you think fore-warned is not fore-armed then continue to fly with your head in the clouds :=

I well believe in the phrase 'There are no old, bold pilots'. Just a little advice from someone who is old, has 10,000 hrs + under his belt, who has survived being shot at by SAMs, crashed, went solo in 1959, has flown everything from Chippies to Fast Jets, (with a few 4-engined airliners thrown in for good measure), might have something to say and something that the 100 hr PPL pilot might consider.

If just one inexperienced pilot reads my initial comment, thinks a little, then avoids hitting another this weekend, then personally I have achieved what I set out to do.

Obviously you don't need my advice, but possibly some do. :)

[hoodie]

...arriving at the wrong time or worse still, arriving without a slot...

Times and slots are recommended and advisory, but - sensibly - not rigidly enforced. Of course it's a good idea to be as close to your planned slot time as you can - since arrivals will be spread out if everyone achieves it, but it's hardly a hanging offence if you don't.

From the Sywell email confirming your slot:

The slot system is intended to promote a smooth distribution of
traffic throughout the day; if you miss your slot e.g. due to a
weather delay, do not worry - [you] will not be turned away.

Do your best, but don't give up and stay away if e.g. you have to move more aircraft out of the way in the hangar than you'd anticipated in order to get your own aircraft out.

Also, when you do read and digest the procedure (http://www.aeroexpo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/AeroExpo-Flight-Procedures.pdf) you'll see it's actually very straightforward. The length of the doc is mostly due to the need to provide background context, and the need to cater for different wind directions to 2 runways in simultaneous use.

There's too much scaremongering in this thread, IMO.

It would be worse, not better, if everybody was calling at multiple points around the hold and the approach.

Oshkosh manages many times more aircraft every year with a similar technique - why can't we? (A: We can).

Have fun, stay safe, follow the procedure accurately, see you there.

[patowalker]

I suspect that flying into the Popham microlight fair provides more useful experience for a safe arrival at Sywell than flying fast jets, airliners and attracting missiles.

[Mariner9]

then continue to fly with your head in the clouds

I have an IR so may as well exercise the privileges lol :ok:

As for Aeroexpo - No need to be a sky god to fly in safely, read and comply with the procedures, and keep a good lookout is all that's needed IMHO

[hoodie]

Further to above: A very switched-on lady elsewhere once summarised the procedure (for the LAA Rally, but much the same here) as:

1. Fly to Pitsford reservoir.
2. Fly round it in a square until you see a sensible gap between you and the aircraft heading off in front of you.
3. Join on a sort of massively extended left base if it's 03 or a wide-ish right downwind if it's 21.
4. Keep your gob shut unless you're on final or on fire.
5. Park where the blokes in orange tell you to.

Yes, there's more to it than that, but not much and that's the essence. The instructions aren't "massive" if you digest them.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Fly round it in a square

Hm. Perhaps my mind is too straightforward for some certain environments, but could someone kindly explain how to fly ROUND in a SQUARE? This is one subject my poor little pilot's syllabus did not cover.

[Johnm]

Quote:
Fly round it in a square
Hm. Perhaps my mind is too straightforward for some certain environments, but could someone kindly explain how to fly ROUND in a SQUARE? This is one subject my poor little pilot's syllabus did not cover.


It's not a bad way to describe flying a holding pattern to a bunch of pilots with zero IFR knowledge or experience.

[DaveW]

Jan, yes - too literal. :} Try "fly around it in a square".

Of course, my Flemish (French? Dutch?) would have been more than up to the task if the situation was reversed... ;)

[Curlytips]

Anyone wanting to be an extra pair of eyes (and I've always enjoyed these busy arrivals) please see the "seats available/desired" thread!

[Helicopterdriverguy]

I was going to fly in but, the idea of meeting such a high volume of traffic in the hold and circuit didn't appeal well to my 120 Hour nature.

[patowalker]

What a ridiculous thread. Instead of encouraging pilots to attend an interesting event, it has just succeeded in putting many off going.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

To anyone who is worried about the traffic inbound to Aero Expo, you have probably already been exposed to heavier traffic flows. If you were doing circuits for your PPL on a sunny afternoon you may have had another three or four aircraft in the circuit. That equates to roughly one every minute or two landing or doing touch and goes.

Although the booking system appears to be giving 30 second arrivals, I’ve never encountered that sort of density at the LAA Rally or Aero Expo in recent years*. As mentioned above, there is a generous amount of information in the briefing document (I’ve laminated pages 13 – 16 for quick reference), but Leia’s summary is really all you need to know.

Hope to see you all there on Friday & Saturday. :ok:

* PFA Rally at Cranfield in the late 1990’s – OK, that was a different game…

[Sir George Cayley]

Maybe another card to hold up in the window?


SW

Scared witless :eek:

Proceeding straight to portaloos:ooh:

SGC

[hegemon88]

To anyone who is worried about the traffic inbound to Aero Expo, you have probably already been exposed to heavier traffic flows. If you were doing circuits for your PPL on a sunny afternoon you may have had another three or four aircraft in the circuit.


I couldn't agree more. I'm not intimidated by this. I'm intimidated by this:

4. Keep your gob shut unless you're on final or on fire.


A busy circuit isn't a problem when I can see and hear what's going on. Just as recently as last week I heard "deadside descending" a second before and a second after I said so myself. A few calls later we all knew where others were. We even decided in which order to enter the circuit :cool: Now, how do I get similar situational awareness in the square hold over Pitsford, honestly I don't know...



/h88

[philfurby]

This is so pathetic what some people in this thread are saying! People with "1000's of hours" who should be encouraging the next breed of pilot's, instead saying how horrible it is and trying to actively discourage people! := MAN UP!

iv been 3 times now! Now of course my "Pathetic" 108 hours.. How did I survive??!! Some people on here would call me crazy!

Oh thats it, I ignored all of the complete rubbish and negativity that people have said on here and did what i was taught as a PILOT! Iv never had a problem getting in and out of Sywell.. Just give a bit of Airmanship, Read up on on how it all works etc and its not that hard!

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[BabyBear]

From the Sywell website:

****NOTE**** RUNWAY 03R/21L (THE GRASS RUNWAY) CLOSED UNTIL AT LEAST 1700 SAT 30th MAY DUE TO WATERLOGGING -


BB

[thing]

Oh thats it, I ignored all of the complete rubbish and negativity that people have said on here and did what i was taught as a PILOT! Iv never had a problem getting in and out of Sywell.. Just give a bit of Airmanship, Read up on on how it all works etc and its not that hard!I don't believe anyone has asked you not to go. If you want to go then do so and have a good day. That's your decision as P1. It's just another day out at another airfield amongst hundreds of others each year. If people want to go and feel comfortable with it that's fine. If people don't want to go because they're not comfortable with it that's fine too, it will not impinge on your enjoyment of the day at all. It's a fly in, not a dick waving contest.

[mikehallam]

I agree with Hegemon88 substantially.

Hearing the correct calls o/hd, cross-wind, downwind & finals is what should be done. Even here for Sywell a downwind call would help one hear, as well as (possibly) see the other chaps.
Why Sywell can unilaterally (& with CAA blessing as it's the same as the LAA Rally nonsense) decide to ditch correct RT is a mystery. Obviously cluttered RT should be avoided but as it stands now we are all condemned to extra danger of Air to Air collision, because of their fear of a few numpties on the RT who could easily be advised by ATC to 'cut it'.
Add to that, an any speed, any height, any diameter 'circuit' over Pitsford and we have double trouble.

mike hallam.

[Mariner9]

Hearing the correct calls o/hd, cross-wind, downwind & finals is what should be done


Overhead joins? :ugh: Descent over a deadside which would be directly over the event and thus in contravention of the ANO :=


Chaos would definitely ensue. At least 4 times the current radio calls, and go arounds galore as aircraft no.1 on final can't get landing clearance due to the radio being swamped with overheaders, cross winders, downwinders, and nos 2-?? on final.

The current system has worked on previous occasions, and will work again.

[sharpend]

I agree with Mike. 'See with your ears' is not possible without RT.

Whatever, keep your eyes open today as it will be busy, especially with chaps turning up late due to duff weather early on, a busy single runway and pilot overshooting because of that.

[Mariner9]

4th bullet point on the promulgated procedures:

Radio transmissions are cut to an absolute minimum, enabling pilots to concentrate on flying and lockout.

:D

[mikehallam]

Agreed,

But 'Minimum' doesn't need to be none at all, in total contravention of normal procedures.

At Sywell this w/end I firmly believe once joining their revised circuit, a short call will help (if not prevent) pilots of a/c close to the same position to miss each other.

Lack of accidents (& conveniently excluding many close shaves uninvestigated in past mass fly-ins) is not the safety parameter it appears to be.

mike hallam.

[Jan Olieslagers]

The more I try to understand all of this, the more I get confused.

as aircraft no.1 on final can't get landing clearance
According to AIP*, this is class G airspace so how can there be a question of landing clearance? Perhaps the airspace is temporarily promoted to class D, for the event?

enabling pilots to concentrate on flying and lockout
Concentrating on flying just confirms the old adagio of "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate", nothing new there. But who must lock out whom and for what reason and under what ruling?

Just a few more UK oddities, I suppose.


*http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-9AC629DFF1C4C13E63AFE6FC96813CCF/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGBK_en_2014-01-09.pdf

[hegemon88]

The more I try to understand all of this, the more I get confused.
[...]
Just a few more UK oddities, I suppose.



A mention of the landing clearance was an error. No clearance is needed/can be issued at Sywell, both within and outside the Aero Expo. To confuse matters more :} I don't think that the class of airspace around matters that much - Southend, Cranfield and Wycombe, to take a few, are all examples of airfields with ATC (i.e. you talk to Tower rather than Radio or Information) located wholly within Class G airspace. You will need a clearance from all of them.

Lockout is a typo, I wanted to make a joke based on it myself but got distracted at work :ugh: I would like to believe that the poster meant lookout.

OK, I printed all 24 pages of instructions, briefed wife into maintaining good lookout and am all set for flying in tomorrow! If it gets hot, go-around, divert Cranfield and lunch at Cafe Pacific :E



/h88

[Jan Olieslagers]

Thanks H88, I had some misgivings about the "lockout" being a typo. Still what you mention about Southend (and others) doesn't begin to clear my confusion. I still maintain that, as I was taught under ICAO ruling, the term "clearance" is void in uncontrolled airspace. Less surprised am I that, as I read on Southend's own website,


Pilots must keep an excellent look out (wow! surprise!), and should wherever practical maintain contact with ATC and use transponders. - See more at: Pilots Briefing Pack - Safety at London Southend | General Aviation | FBO | London Southend Airport (http://www.southendairport.com/airport-facilities/private-corporate-flights/pilots-briefing-pack/#Airspace)
which I take for a clear indication that neither radio nor transponder usage can be really legally binding requirements.

It goes without saying that it is to everybody's interest to use all available means to improve safety - but I find the wording so vague and confusing that I much wonder what will happen before court if a serious accident should happen.

[hoodie]

Come on, people! :sad:

Use some initiative, follow the simple procedure and look out of the damn' window!

It's not hard, and as has been said already Oshkosh manages every year with a single radio call, or none at all, with a far greater volume of traffic.

It is depressing that:

(a) Some people clearly believe that the radio is a primary flying control.
(b) Despite the clear procedures, some are still talking as if a standard circuit join applies.
(c) Some are more interested in the minutiae of (irrelevant) regulations and legalistic minutiae than applying some perfectly acceptable pragmatism.

We can be our own worst enemies, sometimes. :ouch:

hegemon88, that's the spirit! But If you do go around, don't divert to Cranfield - go back to Pitsford and have another go. :ok:

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Having 03 Grass available today (to sub 500Kg aircraft) helped. It might be available to all tomorrow. The lighter end of the spectrum tend to be slower, so having an alternative landing runway for them frees up the hard runway for faster traffic.

I heard a few less than subtle reminders to ‘not land on the numbers and then taxi all the way up 03 Hard’. In general I’d say 90% of the arrivals followed the procedure when I was listening. This probably made the few who didn’t, or had a discussion about who cut who up, more noticeable.

Tomorrow should offer better weather and probably more traffic. :ok:

[hegemon88]

Still having reservations about the Pitsford hold with no RT I set off this morning with a usual delay so it was clear at outset that the landing slot would be narrowly missed. Wife briefed in about the lookout, kids fighting on the back seats, business as usual. I count myself very lucky as when I arrived, there was nobody at Pitsford, just one aircraft already heading to the airfield. I followed them right to the final, made the call, landed long to allow them to vacate :E and that was it. 10 minutes later, when disembarking, I saw seven (7, no kidding) aircraft on final approach and three of them already going around :}

A cherry on top on way back was the Luton guys squeezing me in between two landing big tin cans. Helpful as ever, thanks a million if you're reading it.

Glad I did it, in spite of earlier worries I always planned to, but now I know it can be done. With a bit of luck.



/h88

[cessnapete]

Arrived Sywell midday today. Published procedures worked a treat.
Even with the odd pratt who had not RTFM.

AFIS very professional and courteous, even with the guy who left the procedures print out in his car!
A lot of previous ill informed comment on this thread by people who should know better.
Or perhaps they are ill informed and don't know any better!

[robin]

There was some weird radio traffic. Too many didn't have or have checked the procedures.

What was that guy doing asking for the procedure to be explained to him...

Did have a question whether 03 might have been better. Seemed to have had a tailwind on takeoff and landing

[Mariner9]

Arrived Sywell midday today

Me too (well, 12:03 actually)

Managed to avoid hitting cessnapete (or anyone) despite no radio calls in the hold :p

A few numpties on the radio as always (including a helicopter routing outside the RAT calling for a basic service - WTF "service" did he expect from an ATC dealing flat out with landing Sywell traffic? :ugh:

[PA28181]

i flew past it yesterday, and was listening out as it was a very busy bit of sky all around, I don't know for sure but the guy working the radio sounded very much like an ATCer to me, If not he was doing a good job IMHO.

[mikehallam]

I agree with the writer - the procedure we were compelled to use contained long radio gaps which could have contained truncated position calls. Their ATS showed capability in telling verbose pilots to shut it.
BTW. It is Pilots not aeroplanes, who one way or another are the secondary cause of danger.

mik hallam.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Having flown in on Friday and Saturday I feel that the procedures as laid down worked well; it just needed people to have read and understood them. I suspect some of the problems on Friday were due to the initial lack of the grass runway and its subsequent restricted use by sub 550Kg aircraft. Having the grass runway available on Saturday there was some separation of faster and slower traffic.

The system is to a certain extent self-regulating, in that people who are not comfortable in operating the system go by road. I know of experienced pilots who refused to go, although I’m sure it was well within their capabilities. Perhaps one aspect of the perceived danger is that people are more alert. We all have a personal risk level. If we feel the situation is ‘risky’ we will take more care, or avoid additional risk.

Full ATC has been tried at the PFA Rally in earlier years and was swamped. The arrivals were eventually told that ATC was closing and to ‘sort yourselves out’, that worked. You would end up needing multiple frequencies, so people would be ‘head down’ changing channels when they should be flying / looking out for traffic. Everyone needs to remember that the aircraft flies by Bernoulli not Marconi.

The system at Sywell has run in this form for a couple of years now, including Aero Expo and the LAA Rally. The LAA Rally has two or more times the participating aircraft than does Aero Expo. I’m not sure how many arrivals could be accommodated if a rigid ATC / Slot system was enforced. Certainly less than can operate with the present system. While this might be ok for Aero Expo, it would not work for the LAA Rally. In the dim and distant past I remember reading that ‘Every airfield has an ATIS’. Basically you listen out to what is happening on the radio and form your own view of the airfield conditions. Ok, it won’t tell you how many are in the Pitsford Hold, but it does show the arrival rate at the field.

Interesting to see the Oshkosh VFR Arrival Procedure, (http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/eaa-fly-in-flying-to-oshkosh/oshkosh-air-traffic-control/visual-flight-rules-hints-and-tips/basics-of-visual-flight-rules-arrival) where there are an order of magnitude more participants, although an admittedly greater ATC element.

[hegemon88]

A lot of previous ill informed comment on this thread

Although I went there, landed OK and liked the experience, I still think that both camps have a point here. To me the single call procedure isn't ideal, I perceive it as increased risk but other people don't and that's fine with me. Two things were said in a parallel thread (mods: a thread merge can be in order?)

1) the system is self-regulated as those who consider proc risky travel by car :D
2) perceived increased risk, true or not, makes us sit at the edge of our seats and look out like never before

Hard to argue, and even if I'm not a great fan of adopted proc, effectively EOT for me.

2015 dates are out, I guess once I have posted this, I book the group aircraft for next year :cool:



/h88

[robin]

The slot system is never that rigid but only a means of controlling numbers.

The idea of flying VFR in sometimes marginal weather to arrive within a minute of your slot is a challenge. We had a long slog through low cloud and poor viz on our 150 km trip yesterday, Frankly, the idea of arriving on the slot time went out of the window quite early

[A and C]

Having not gone to the Aero Expo having decided to get involved with another form of mechanical entertainment on the Isle of Man I can't comment on the goings on at Aero expo but as said above the problems seem to come from two sources.

Those who don't read or fail to understand the issued instructions ( just like the guy at the PFA rally who was trying to talk to the ATIS recorded message)


Those who are unable to fly a variable approach speed, you need to be happy with anything between 65 & 80KTS for the Initial approach to enable you to space yourself from the aircraft ahead and be of the attitude that a go-around is the likely outcome of any approach at this sort of event.

[cessnapete]

One other point to mention. Due to the advance slot requirement at these events and the vagaries of the English weather, many people book at least slots for two days sometimes all three. You then pick the best weather day for your visit. There is never as much traffic as the booking list shows. In my past 3 visits I have never experienced a hold at Pitsfor,d and joined the queue direct to downwind.

[soaringhigh650]

Oshkosh does have ATC and works fine. They CAN see the traffic, tell you whether the hold is in use, which marker to land on the runway and more.

It sounds like ATC procedures were suboptimal at the PFA rally, but that shouldn't be a reason to get rid of it.

If these events get busier one day someone is gonna get involved in a mid-air.

I only hope this doesn't happen before ATC is brought in.

[Bob Upanddown]

Now the expo has finished, I hope my comments won't be considered as try to persuade people against flying in.

I have more than a few hours in my log books and have been to many of these (PFA rally, Aero Expo, etc) over the years but a few years ago I decided - Never Again. I steer away from other fly-ins as well.

I have seen too many near misses and too many idiots in the air. There have been incidents over the years, I remember one aircraft going down on short finals at a PFA rally just in front of me and being told to land over it (Cranfield I think).

It has already been mentioned that it is a smallish minority that fail to read the instructions. (The same ones who fly through Red Arrows displays, I suspect). However, in my opinion, it is a much larger proportion of pilots who fail to demonstrate good airmanship and cut up other aircraft, stop on the runway to read the next instruction, etc..
Then there are the difficulties of mixing aircraft of very different performance. A&C suggests it is easy as long as you all stick at 65-80 kts. In a Saratoga, you will be near to falling out of the sky at those speeds and so one minor problem that causes you to take your eye off the ASI and you will stall in. This show needs a better system for slow and fast aircraft.

Full ATC would be possible. Anyone who flew to the last fly-in at Filton had full ATC and I didn't hear any complaints. I did go to that and the aircraft were "landing after" in many cases so landing as frequently as possible. Yes, there were instances of people passing their date of birth and inside leg measurement over the RT but it still worked.

It is my firm belief that the lack of ATC is because they are simply unable to cope and have thrown their hands up to let the pilots get on with it.

It is bad enough some days just trying to join the circuit at a busy grass airfield. I have met aircraft flying the wrong way round the circuit, calling left base instead of right downwind, lining up to take off with me on finals at 100 ft, you name it. Are these the same people who load the wife, 2 kids, a huge picnic and full fuel to travel to Sywell (I saw two pilots do this on Saturday).

One day, there will be a mid-air at one of these shows. The risk is not insignificant, in my opinion, I just don't want to be part of it.

[sharpend]

I agree with you Bob.

We decided to give Friday a miss due to bad weather considering that poor vizability and late arrivals due to the weather increased the risk beyond my pay grade.

We went on Saturday and arrived about midday to a very quiet circuit. No problems. We however chuckled when we heard the call from the pilot who had left the procedures in his car and had not yet read them. Obviously he was going to read them on finals and hoped that others would avoid him.:)

As for the 'chap' who suggests that those who publish the benefit of their years of experience are 'SW, scared witless' is not only incredibly rude, but perhaps does not quite understand the phrase 'No old, bold pilots'. Moreover, to be careful is not be be pathetically wimpish, it is just wishing to minimise risk, yet still having a good time. All flying is risky; one just needs to leant from history to live to fly another day.

[JSAG]

Arrived Friday with 3 pairs of Mk1 eyeball. One circuit of hold and followed plane in front in. One of four on final. It's the one place where everybody is on the lookout. I thought Sywell was great. Loved the Fox Moth - pilot sits outside, 3 passengers in the forward cabin. Like a handsom cab.

Oshkosh has complete radio silence (apart from the odd numpty). Thers's a bloke on the hill with radio and binos. All you hear is "PA28 with red wing stripe wangle your wings" You waggle and are identified. "Line up final you're 3rd"

They'll also land two simultaneously one short, one long. Seems hairy.

[chrisbl]

Oshkosh is not hairy, just follow the procedure and it just goes incredibly well.


WRT to Sywell, I was surprised and disappointed at the number of people who either had not bothered the read the procedures or who felt they ought to disregard them and seemingly happy to publicly demonstrate it.

[Mariner9]

Just a little advice from someone who is old, has 10,000 hrs + under his belt, who has survived being shot at by SAMs, crashed....

That makes you an old, bold pilot in my view Sharpend lol :D :ok:

[Dan Dare]

It is my firm belief that the lack of ATC is because they are simply unable to cope and have thrown their hands up to let the pilots get on with it.


It is my firm belief that lack of ATC saves rather a lot of money - even if you were to find the ATCOs willing to give up their time to do such a thing you would still have to cover their costs and the astronomical CAA charges. You would still be unlikely to get a signifficantly safer service than that provided by the Sywell FISOs.

The special procedures for the event mitigate some of the risks and are probably tweaked each time, but 100s of aircraft converging on an airfield involves some risk. You just have to balance the risk against the the pleasure of flying to an airfield with 100s of aircraft there. If the risk feels too great then don't go.

[PENNINE BOY]

Pitsford Hold is an accident waiting to happen!

Flew in last year and this year on the friday for a 0900 local slot.

Weather around Sywell on both occasions was low cloud tops around 2800 and the bottom about 800.

You have aircraft joining from all directions to Pitsford descending to remain VFR, with no rt calls being made on entry to the VRP. and at what height?

It needs to have another frequency for arrivals to help with situational awareness. And to help the stream of arrivals into Sywell.

PB

[soaringhigh650]

You would still be unlikely to get a significantly safer service [with ATC] than that provided by the Sywell FISOs.

The key is that traffic information should be issued so that you can look for it in the right direction, then see it and avoid it.

At Oshkosh, ATC does issue information about whether the hold is being used or is saturated. They use traffic monitors.

[G-ARZG]

Drama (or non-drama) of flying-in aside, was it worth the effort?

(didn't go this year, or last year - AERO FDH Germany beats this hands down)
(hans down ???)

[sharpend]

Actually I was a little disappointed this year. I have been to the last 5, but somehow this year seemed less spectacular. More GA visitors there though.

[cessnapete]

A non drama if a drop of common sense used. For all the Drama Queens on the thread, just don't go!!!

[Bob Bevan]

We were rushed off our feet for all three days. Did not even get the chance to walk around the show ground which was a shame.

[jxc]

I went Friday first time I have flown in and thought of it as pretty much a non event except for the baron deciding to cut in front of me on finals but I have no lights and in a rutan so I may not have been easy to see.
Must say I loved it and will do it again next year.

[LowNSlow]

I pitched up on Sunday morning to an empty Pitsford hold but suddenly had two in front of me as I headed toward the runway. I can only assume that they were on the downwind for 21 as they were well to my right. No drama as they were easily spotted. I slowed down to remain behind the PA-28 that was headed for the hard while the 172 went for the grass. Big deal, not.

This is my second visit to Aerofair and I basically went to drop some Auster bits off to the current keeper of my former Auster and also to chew the fat with the ex-owner of my current steed.

According to my friend who was displaying there Friday was flat, Saturday was busy and they had done as much business by lunchtime Sunday as on the previous two days!

So it's a good place to do aviation related business if your products are good. From a visiting / sight seeing point of view I wasn't so convinced but then again I wasn't in the market for anything other than some LED strobe bulbs that I couldn't find.

Could I have bought an aircraft there? Definitely, with pretty much everything covered from e-go to baby jets via SSDRs, autogyros, diesel PA-28s and a delicious Beech 18.

Was it it a lifestyle demo? Possibly, with powerboats and expensive cars on sale / show. As a friend commented, what next, a catwalk alongside the boat?

If I had been with my family then it might have been more interesting but that's down to me rather than the show.

I did feel sorry for the chaps with the mobile bar (which looked very impressive). What were they thinking bringing a bar to a venue that a) already has a bar and b) is mostly populated by people who have driven or flown there? Ah well, I hope they covered their costs at least!

[flybymike]

what next, a catwalk alongside the boat?
There was in fact a catwalk there on the Saturday ( although they called it a "runway")
Various rather attractive girls showing off flight jackets.

[fernytickles]

Flybymike,

That's an interesting concept. If a pretty girl looks good (aka sexy) in a particular flight jacket, does that make a bloke rush off & buy one to wear hisself? :confused:

[thing]

No it makes you rush off and buy one for the missus and then await the inevitable disappointment.

[flybymike]

Oh dear, I was just thinking of buying her one as well.....:)

[Crash one]

No, it just makes you wish she would take it off.