A Cranwell education

[Phil_R]

A few years ago I had the pleasure of visiting Cranwell with an about-to-retire Wing Commander who had worked there for a while. As we strolled around soaking up the history of the prettier, red-brick parts of the campus (and marvelling at the architectural horror of the 1960s parts), it was discussed that there are occasionally foreign attendees, particularly in the context of the offspring of middle-eastern royalty.

So, how does this work, exactly? My assumption is it's some sort of officer exchange program with the student's national air force, albeit for people who aren't quite officers yet. I get the impression it was being viewed almost as something of a finishing school for people expecting the same sort of military career as, for instance, our own most famous sons of nobility.

Best

Phil

[Rossian]

.....did it not, that a Sandhurst course was a necessary foundation for running a succesful military coup in one's own country.

I often wonder what became of the Iraqi air force chaps who went through South Cerney at the same time as I did. Where are they now

One SO of my acquaintance still goes to reunion of his course at the Towers, where they are all flown in the private jet belonging to the ME chap who went through with them.

The Ancient Mariner

OK I give in how do you edit a typo in the title??

[Basil]

I often wonder what became of the Iraqi air force chaps
Whilst flying for Cathay I sat having a beer with an Iraqi and an Iranian who'd served in their respective air forces during the Iraq/Iran war.
Their good-humoured banter sounded just like a bunch of RAF guys.

[Roland Pulfrew]

My assumption is it's some sort of officer exchange program with the student's national air force

Phil

International Defence Training - they pay for it and it is (was) done from irreducible spare capacity. Not that we have much irreducible spare capacity left nowadays.

[Wander00]

ISTR that many years ago - early 70s - a bunch of Saudi students at the Towers set up the next best thing to a brothel in one of the Cadet wings.

[Phil_R]

International Defence Training

Thanks, that's probably the phrase I was looking for.

Still, sons of royalty!

[Hummingfrog]

I was there late 1974 til late 1975 and must have been so engrossed in the course that I didn't notice :{ their hobby :E

HF

[ricardian]

And there were Venezualan apprentices at Halton in the 1960s!

[MPN11]

Two Sudanese on my ATC course in 65, but no suggestion they were royalty. :cool:

[EngAl]

There were 2 Saudis on my OCTU course at Henlow in the mid 70s and it was understood from the outset that they were almost certainly going to pass as their government was paying. They weren't royalty either.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Still, sons of royalty!

Phil

In my time I have been on courses with or have taught personnel from the Lebanese, Kuwaiti, Omani, Kenyan, Belizian Air Forces/Air Wings. Also had students going through the system from Iraq, Saudi and UAE - none, as far as I knew, were sons of Royalty.

[Wander00]

Had an Omani student when I was a flt cdr on IOT. Son of a sergeant in the Omani Army so not rich by any means. Lovely guy - remember him totally blown away by Halton House OM. Still have the djebella he gave me on leaving.

[4fitter]

The lovely Fred Harbottle allocated a certain ME Prince to me at Bracknell. He didn't need my grammar, grace or culture - what a wonderful experperience

[Simplythebeast]

There were a couple of Scots on my Halton course. Couldnt understand what they were saying but they seemed fairly capable for third world nationals.

[matkat]

Beast, I would think they could not understand your accent either and marvelled at your legendary 'tightness' was married to a Geordie for 25 years (sorry a yorkie but all the same anyway) so know what I am talking about:ok:

[ursa_major]

Training foreign students at Cranwell isn't a new thing by any stretch of the imagination - Iranian & Turkish pilots were trained at Cranwell during WW2. The Turks in particular were sufficient in number to have their own liaison officer and disciplinary processes.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

One of the Iraqis who went through Cranwell and Valley in the 1980's did a bunk after getting his wings, rather than fly a Mirage F1 in another of Saddam's 'Operation Certain Death' raids.

Somebody bumped into him a year later - he was running a chip shop in Hull under a pseudonym.:D

[airborne_artist]

Dartmouth had plenty of International students in 1978. I remember a Barbadian, a Singaporean, an Irish lad (just as you'd expect, too ;)), Iranians, Iraquis, several from UAE and more. I'd guess they made up a good 20% of the total.

They varied hugely in motivation - for some it was a one year jolly but others took it very seriously and were clearly going far - the Singaporean I shared a cabin with was a good example.

[smujsmith]

Some of the nicest blokes going through Halton in my time (69- 71) were the Malaysian Air Force chaps. I was led to believe that most would graduate and then proceed to a pilots course at Cranwell. As a Staffordshire farming village lad, spending time chatting with such "exotic" characters was a real eye opener, and they were all great fun to be around. Interesting thread, I know that its thrust is toward Cranwell, but there are links throughout the RAF training system to our former Commonwealth and friendly allies.

Smudge:ok:

[NutLoose]

When I was at Saint Athans they had a bunch of African PTI trainees and they we're true Africans in every sense, watching them standing in the gym holding javelins and learning to throw them brought on more than a few giggles.

Likewise there was a course of Arabs at Halton, only one spoke English so had to translate everything for them, including the exam questions :E surprisingly most of their results were similar.

[HTB]

AA

Dartmouth January 1969 term had Malaysians as well as all the others you mentioned. Was the Singaporean you shared a cabin with of Indian ethnicity? I too shared a cabin (along with 5 other cadets) with a Singaporean (Indian) for the first 6 months of '69 - what a coincidence.

As for the Royal Air Force side, I attended OCTU Henlow from February 1972 for 3 or 4 months; there were several Nigerian cadets there at the time (Green/Brown squadron), some of whom gave the impression of being related to some form of royalty, or tribal chiefs (along with some who were not). The first bunch, tall indolent and arrogant fellows, needed a lot of motivation to become team players.

Mister B

[thing]

At Cosford I had Omanis, Malays Saudis and Nigerians on the techy courses. They may have been others that I can't remember. Omanis were great guys, all drank like fish; Malays were equally great and excellent at table football and badminton. Funnily enough when at Italian AF bases I always found the Italians excellent at table football as well.

Phil, didn't you know that all Saudis are related to some prince or other?...:) Or so they like to tell you. They were OK but keen to try and er, offer financial incentives...The Nigerians on the whole always seemed to me like they didn't want to be there. They didn't smile a lot and kept very much to themeselves. As HTB says a bit of an arrogant bunch, although what they had to be arrogant about was a little bemusing.

[Whenurhappy]

To answer the question, The MOD, as part of a wider cross-government initiative, identifies countries that we want to be/need to be close to for strategic reasons. Through 'International defence Training' places at BRNC/RMAS/RAFC/ACSC/RCDS are offered to a number of countries. Some places are free - for poorer countries; some are charged at the full whack (ACSC is GBP60,000, I believe). RMAS also offer private places for the kids of wealthy despots but they still have to meet the entry criteria and to pass - apparently. Clearly, the Middle East is a big market, but so to is Afghanistan and parts of Africa. The students should meet UK entry standards, and there is particular emphasis on English Language competency - students are held back or sent home if they don't reach an appropriate functional standard.


25% of ACSC is allocated to foreign students; 75% of RCDS members are outwith the UK. Clearly, the IOT courses are a long-term investment from an influence perspective; RCDS returns are a bit closer.

Furthermore, there are exchange students and DS slots at ACSC level with the AUSCANZUK community, the wider Commonwealth and a number of other NATO partners, especially France.

[teeteringhead]

One recalls some Singaporean ATC students at Shawbs. They were keen as mustard, very good and amazingly hardworking - spending as much spare time in the Sims as they could.

Turns out they had to lodge a bond with the Singers Government for the cost of the course - about £50k then IIRC - and if they failed the course, they paid for it!! Now that's what I call an incentive to succeed! :ok:

[relight9]

Whilst tracking down pilots of our JP XS186 we found several Manby instructors that noted mainly Saudi trainees at RAF Manby in the 60's, training up on the Mk4 JP's before going onto Lightning courses, i assume back home?

We recorded one story for posterity that noted a trip out over the Humber and North Yorks coast, as was often the case. The student had a fairly limiting aptitude and was asked to turn back to Manby, only to head off north-east towards Norway......luckily the instructor was watching...........

Our intrepid instructor refused to progress the student, but by means unknown he went on to pass.
The instructor learned that a couple of years on from the guys departure he had been executed for treason........

[pamac51]

1969 at Colerne we had 2 Nigerian officers, a Major and a Lieutenant. The Major wore a No 1 similar to our own but with a dazzling array of bling. The Lt wore a 'hairy mary' battle dress same as us erks! Word was that the Major belonged to a higher caste and regardless that they were the only Nigerians around for miles, they never walked alongside each other with the Lt trailing at a respectful distance behind

[Hempy]

"and it is never to be used for private Polish chit-chat!"

[thing]

Wasn't Bob Prest Nigerian? Or his dad was anyway.

[Wander00]

TH - Isn't that what we now call "student loan"?

[Fitter2]

Whilst tracking down pilots of our JP XS186 we found several Manby instructors that noted mainly Saudi trainees at RAF Manby in the 60's, training up on the Mk4 JP's before going onto Lightning courses, i assume back home?


No, they did their conversions at 226 OCU 1968/9 at Coltishall. Never seen an Officers' Mess car park so full of Ferraris, Maseratis and Lamborghinis. And the parties when one went solo! Of course they were such devout followers of Islam that alcohol turned to water as it touched their lips.


At Yatesbury in '61 their was a Middle Eastern course, and during it there was a coup at home. They were confined to their hut and marched under guard to meals until a diplomat and Imam from the new regime arrived, had them paraded on the square and one by one had them swear loyalty to the new lot on the Q'ran; all resumed then to normality.

[Shiny10]

I had a class of ‘Foreign Nationals’ at Halton which included several Malays.

Six of them cooked my wife and me a traditional Malay curry and insisted we ate it with our fingers, it was delicious, they were great people.

One of the other Malay seemed to have a rather large chip on his shoulder ignoring everything said to him and was often insolent. I asked him why he had such an attitude; he replied, “You British raped our country exploiting our rubber plantations for your own wealth”. I told him that without British involvement there would have been no rubber in Malaysia as the British had introduced it after stealing plants from South America; this did not appease him.

He was very arrogant with our Flt Lt (who had ex ranker small man syndrome); he complained to the embassy. Three large gentlemen took the airman to a classroom from which he reappeared looking a little worse for wear! He was eventually repatriated without completing the course.


Takes all sorts!

[taxydual]

Six of them cooked my wife and me

I had to read that twice!

[Shiny10]

Why stop at me; the sentence does not stop there so why would you?

[taxydual]

Just banter Shiny, just banter.

[safetypee]

Cranwell, early / mid 60’s there were several Pakistani Air Force cadets.
The Saudis were there during the mid 60’s where I recall supervising an arrival ceremony of ‘cutting grass with nail scissors’ – at least the two princes had a sense of humour, more than some from that part of world. Our paths crossed again at Coltishall where they flew their own Lightnings before taking them to Saudi.
I met one of the Princes again many years later at Farnbourough – I was trying to sell something, he was the minister of planes, military, buying, etc; somewhat surprised and concerned I was met with “I know you” greeting, but he declined my invitation to fly or buy.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I had a Cranwell education. Cranwell Primary School from 1953 - 58. School was wooden huts where the tech block now stands. Brilliant memories.


Aaron.

[Wander00]

One of the Pakistanis on my Entry declined a yard of ale on his 21st on religious grounds, but offered to drink a yard of coca cola. What a mistake - stomach swelled like he was pregnant, and made it to the window just in time!

[airborne_artist]

Dartmouth January 1969 term had Malaysians as well as all the others you mentioned. Was the Singaporean you shared a cabin with of Indian ethnicity? I too shared a cabin (along with 5 other cadets) with a Singaporean (Indian) for the first 6 months of '69 - what a coincidence.


No, he was of Chinese descent. His English was perfect, of course. He used to pick us up on our grammar :}

[Wander00]

ISTR there was also a Pakistani QFI on 1 Sqn in mid 60s - nipped off home for the Indo-Pakistan war and came back with a bigger grin on his face than ever. ?Rash Wamiq?

[Phil_R]

Well, I hadn't intended to create such a long-runner.

Are these people there to do the same IOT course (or whatever it is you do at Halton) as local newbies, or some sort of specialised syllabus that their home nation specifically needs them to do? ACSC seems to be the RAF equivalent of what the Army would call staff college.

And - forgive me for noticing - but more than a few of the reminiscences here are what good-natured banter might describe as classic in nature. Are things still the same?

P

[chopd95]

Just checked... my first Jet Solo certificate is signed by Flt Lt Bahar U. H...

[radar101]

About ten years ago, as a civ senior lecturer at Cranwell myself and a colleague went out to the Nigerian academy in Kaduna. We went in our old uniforms ( got permission from Innsworth) We gave their instructors a week of Radar. At the end, the Gp Capt thanked us, turned to his instructors and said "now you see how it is done", burst into tears and said that his time at Locking had been the best training in his life.

[Yellow Sun]

In the same era as the Saudi princes at Cranwell; mid '60s; we also has a Jordanian engineer. In contrast to them, he was as poor as a church mouse. He was a lovely chap who put 100% into everything. There were Sudanese and Pakistanis going through in that period as well.

There were Kenyans going through Nav School in the late '60s. I don't know what they were like professionally, but socially they were stars!

Perhaps my most poignant experience was sitting in the shade of the wing talking to a Sri Lankan who had passed through Halton. We were at an airfield no one has ever heard of in a place that no one would wish to go. We had arrived there on the tide of events and were both a long way from home. It proved that our passing through Trenchard's respective systems; Halton and Cranwell; had left us with much in common.

YS

[Melchett01]

I was invited back to Cranwell last year as a guest at the Royal grad. I'm sure there were a couple of Chinese cadets on the course - I can only imagine that was an attempt at the influence piece as described earlier, although what the Unit Security Officer might have said when told they were coming, I can only imagine.

And thinking back to my days as a student there, we had a couple of cadets from Brunei. Whilst both delightful chaps, one was far more outgoing and less reserved than his colleague. Eager to try everything that Cranwell had to offer, he was spotted in the bar with a beer by our Flt Cdr. On being politely asked about how drinking tallied with his religious beliefs, he lit up a huge grin and said that whilst Allah was omniscient, chain link fences caused interference with such omniscience!

[Whenurhappy]

There are foreign students on most IOT courses and some in flying training, as well as some attending specialist training. ACSC is the Joint 'staff college' course held at Swindon polytech (Defence Academy, Shrivenham). I'm not aware of Chinese students on IOT, but sveral normally attend ACSC each year. I did foreign Staff College and we had 2 Iraqi officer - one whom had appeared on George Bush's Pack of Cards of most-wanted Iraqis. On our study trips all they wanted to find were 'the women'.

[Spartacan]

I went through BFTS at Linton in the eighties when they were training a fair number of Iraqis. Pleasant bunch although one of them had a jolly good go at killing a fair few QFI's.

The most amusing bit was at the graduation lunch. After we toasted the Queen one of the the Iraqis got up and said:

'And what about our President ?'

So, yes, we all stood up and toasted Saddam Hussein.

You couldn't make it up - and I haven't.

Moreover, they brought some really pretty girls to the graduation.

[teeteringhead]

On being politely asked about how drinking tallied with his religious beliefs, he lit up a huge grin and said that whilst Allah was omniscient, chain link fences caused interference with such omniscience! I have had 3 excellent responses from Arab students when challenged on the subject of alcohol. They were Emirati, Jordanian and Omani - sadly I cannot remember which said which!

1. If you read the Holy Quran, it only forbids the drinking of wine - nothing about beer or whisky!

2. Yes Sir, and Christians don't lie, steal or commit adultery!

3. But I am so holy and devoted, that when alcohol passes my lips, it miraculously changes to water!

[The_1]

Straying off topic a bit....

Taught a course in Mozambique to their Army. With much efforts under the boiling sun we rigged up tents, genies, projectors, 'in the field' green canvas chairs etc and delivered the 3 day course. At the end of one session, after asking if anyone had any questions, there was just one eager hand who asked....."Are we allowed to take the chairs?"

Lovely country, great people!

[Old Bricks]

Late 60s/early 70s at Cranwell we had 2 Pakistani and 2 Malaysian flight cadets. Malaysians were engineers - very bright and hard working. Pakistanis were both pilots, one was a good egg and the other bone idle. He put in a request to the flt cdr to take the whole of Ramadan off - strangely, it was not granted.
I also had a very sharp Pakistani QFI on JPs. Very expressive - would bring a wooden ruler with him on flights with which to bash one's bonedome to get better results. Great memories of him putting his head in his hands as I weaved my way down a PAR and saying "Oh, Old Bricks, you are trying to kill me yet again!" I heard of him many years later as a one star. Fine chap!

[BEagle]

Old Bricks wrote: Late 60s/early 70s at Cranwell we had 2 Pakistani and 2 Malaysian flight cadets.

I can recall the 2 Malaysians, but the only 99 Entry Pakistani mate I recall was 'Ray' Rehman of 99'B', who didn't graduate.

Any idea why? And who was the other chap?

[muppetofthenorth]

Yep, definitely had Chinese on my IOT. One of the DS - an IntO - was deeply suspicious of the electronic handheld translator they carried at all times...

[Haraka]

Beags,
"Ray" and "Sid" IIIRC. Trying to remember "Sid"s proper name. ( Sayeed ...?)
Also remember being sprayed with gravel by Bandar Sultan's Yank Tank outside of the Junior Cadets' Mess one night . Next time I came across him was when he was a Saudi Minister responsible for defence procurement.
Needless to say we slapped each other on the back as old chums and went on to reminisce about times past .........;):}

[Old Bricks]

BEags and Haraka
Lutfur Rehman was on B Sqn and basically failed his flying course (undoubtedly because he had to work through Ramadan!). Sid Saeed was on C and was the sharp one.
OB

[Haraka]

Beags.
Good to see that Old Bricks is back in communication.
( Scrotum has obviously now rigged up the keyboard in easier reach from the commode for him)
H.
Guys - see yr PMs.

[Peter Carter]

Would this be the same 'Sid' who was at Valley mid-71 with Bert Yong?

[Haraka]

Hi Peter,
The timing would fit. Sep '68 plus 2 1/2 years to graduate from the Towers with Basic Flying Training completed.

[Peter Carter]

Haraka - OK.
Sadly I think Bert was killed in a TWU Hunter accident shortly after he was at 4 FTS. Also, I have vague recollections around that time of another Singaporean called Goh who hit the spreader bar on a solo air to air; cracked the canopy of his F6, but landed in one piece.

[BEagle]

Old Bricks / Haraka - yes, I gathered that a night trip in which Ray screwed up a FOCDTC (for not the first time) was his final straw...QFI took control with the turn needle locked full-scale with the IAS rapidly increasing and the altimeter unwinding rather rapidly. Shame - I rang Towers when I was invited up from University for the 99 Grad and was told that Ray had departed the fix back to Pakistan.

Wasn't Bandar's Yank Tank a Thunderbird? I remember seeing him in it once, but then he bought a DB6...:hmm: Lucky so-and-so!

[brakedwell]

We had an Iraqi student on our Vampire course at Swinderby in 1956/7. A charming chap who had a brand new pale green and white Ford Zephyr in which he pulled a lot of Lincoln's young ladies. Being a moslem he only drank milka stouta in the local watering holes. Tarik Wahab Abdul el Hashimi joined us after being re-coursed and was then re-coursed again shortly before we passed out. As a member of the Iraqi Royal Family he was not allowed to fail! I got talking to an Iraqi Air Force Ilyushin crew two years later in the Luqa transit mess bar and asked after Tariq. The captain ran his hand across his throat and said. "Dead". "In the coupe?" I asked. The reply was "No, Vampire engine failure after take-off Habbaniya."

[Old Bricks]

Haraka
One does not waste one's pearls of wisdom by throwing them amongst swine. Far better to maintain one's dignity by not responding to the cries of the peasantry. Besides which, Old Scrotum hasn't quite grasped all this new-fangled electric word system yet and has gone off to purchase a biro.
How is life in the extreme swamps of Africa?
OB

[Haraka]

Beags,
Yes it was a Thunderbird.
Also 98A had another Saudi ( Arif) , who allegedly responded to his instructor's criticism of his total disinterest in map reading with the remark;
'Why should I bother, it's all sand where I come from"

Old Bricks:
Biro? BIRO?!!!
Zut Alors ! Have you now abandoned even those few standards you once pretended you had?
Ball-point pen. :=

Life in the Mangrove Swamp continues at a steady pace, regardless of the native uprisings to the north.
H.

[Old Bricks]

I once witnessed said Arif attempting to take off in a JP3 with the airbrakes out, whilst ignoring calls from the tower, caravan and us other ac waiting to go. He finally realised after about 3000ft of runway, brought in the airbrakes and managed to stagger into the air. Amazing!

[The_1]

Yep, I second the views held of Omani students. The best of the foreign cohort in my opinion. The one on my course even did all his own coursework! Had been to Halton and a great footballer to boot.

Caribbean students used to brighten the PEd sessions clad in 3 layers, gloves and woolly hat whilst everyone else was in t-shirts and shorts!

Qataris were great fun - I think their entrance test was whether they were willing to stump up another annex to the camp!

To be honest, none of the courses would have been the same without all of the foreign students. They all added so much in their own way, and left some cracking memories.

Most disappointing thing about Cranditz was the quality of the Flt Cdrs! Too many never been in charge of 'troops' of a decent quantity before, and some even sent because they had been bad boys and needed to build up their profile again. A far cry from Sandhurst where the cream of Offrs and SNCOs are chosen from the British Army, generally with recent frontline experience. I know with the tempo of ops these days that this will all have changed now.

[N727NC]

After a syndicate exercise at Bracknell, on the last RAF Advanced Staff Course, we were trying to gather the syndicate to go for a quick ‘team building’ beer before dinner. Our Zimbabwean colleague was having none of it – though we knew he wasn’t teetotal.



Come on Bloggs, we’re off down to the Bar
No
Come on – it’s important that we get to know each other
No
Come on Bloggs, just a quick wet
No
Why not – we really want you to come?
I’m going home for a shag

Collapse of not-so-stout parties at this clear expression of “The Aim”

[Haraka]

Most disappointing thing about Cranditz was the quality of the Flt Cdrs! Too many never been in charge of 'troops' of a decent quantity before, and some even sent because they had been bad boys and needed to build up their profile again.

That is a very interesting point . At the time of going through ( twice!) 40 plus years ago I would have disagreed with you.
However , once out in the Service at large, it did seem that a fair few "oddities" seemed to be sent to the Towers DS , seemingly as for some form of remedial treatment.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Most disappointing thing about Cranditz was the quality of the Flt Cdrs!

At least when I went through many of the flt cdrs were aircrew. Some good and some not so good role models there back then. How many aircrew flt cdrs in the current system are aircrew and for those that are there is their flying pay clock ticking? :(

[BEagle]

Haraka, back in those days, all the Flt Cdrs would have been ex-Cranwell themselves. Quite rightly so - one didn't wish to associate with Supplementary List Untermensch.

Whereas by the time I returned on 14 GE, there were a number of ex-Henlow oiks as Flt Cdrs :yuk: Bloody peasants, they had neither breeding nor style... One chap on 18GE had so much ante-dated seniority that he actually outranked his scribbly Flt Cdr!

[BOING]

I was on the "airfield" side of instructional staff when for some very strange reason someone decided that the QFIs should belong to the College staff which actually meant, in practice, they should use the bar. I can't help thinking that this was considered a bad decision in very short order, especially after someone drove between the soccer goal posts on the way home to MQ - unfortunately the nets were still in place.

[Haraka]

...Barrier! ... Barrier!.......hic . :)

[HTB]

Beags

"SL Untermensch"? But BOING says in #68 that there were soccer goalposts at Cranwell - were these for use by the airmen? Surely not a sport for aspiring GL officers...although I do recall some V-Force guys talking about a sporting team called "Icarus" (one of them a goal keeper, so round ball and not an officer's sport). Untermensch indeed...hah!

Mister B:E

[HTB]

Jenks

Thanks for that - goalie I referred to was a flt cdr on 27 sqn (Vulcan) - Mike "Harry" Radforth (nav) - the other V-Force guy was Pete Azzaro. I played soccer until I was about 16/17, then grew up and played rugger (which probably explains why I was SL rather than GL). I did go to Cranwell once, as a reserve for the Scampton team (rugby); Cranners had some asian looking bloke on the wing - Rory something - didn't like my touch calls much (that's what reserves are for...), but he was fairly quick on his feet.

Mister B

[brakedwell]

What year did Cranwell end the elite 3 Year Course and become an IOTS or whatever it was called these days?

[Phil_R]

supplementary-list untermensch

What? Who? Eh?

[HTB]

Dunno, but it was initially No 1 Department of Initial Officer Training, shortened to 1DIOT (or I would like to think so:E)

Mister B

[Yellow Sun]

What year did Cranwell end the elite 3 Year Course and become an IOTS or whatever it was called these days?

It became a 2 year 6 month course in 1964. IIRC 90 Entry were the last 3 year course(?) 101 Entry were the last cadet entry, commencing by my reckoning in 1969. By mid 1973 the last vestiges of the cadet entries had gone and with 9GE being the "senior" entry.

YS

[HTB]

YS

I've trawled my decaying memory cells and would guess that the last cadet entry for the long course - 1Ω1 - would have been about 1970, graduating in 1972 (based on our pilot officer co-pilot on 101 sqn who was a graduate ot that course - there's a coincidence [Ω = last letter of Greek alphabet]; the nav plotter and I were also plt offs).

[Old Bricks]

99 Entry was the last of the two and a half year entries that started twice a year, starting on 30 Sep 68 and graduating 26 Feb 71. 100 Entry started in Sep/Oct 69, thus graduating in Feb 72 and 101 started Sep/Oct 70, graduating Feb 73, by which time the GE scheme was well up and running, and the last flight cadets kept out of sight -and severely underpaid compared with the officers of the GEs

[Haraka]

The two cadet entries post 99 came in yearly ( so 99 were junior entry for a year).
101 indeed graduated in early 1973 and went out in true Flight Cadet style.
Nobody who was there could forget their revue, marked by the total SOH failure and walk-out by the "Aristocracy" ( to the not so subdued glee of the rest of the audience).

That stripper was a very nice girl!

[BOING]

Either 100 or 101 graduation. It was when GB, the Orange Job, joined us. Nobody vetted the "ladies" and one appeared for her routine in Gestapo uniform. Very embarrassing but G was a real gentleman and basically put the whole celebration back on track.
What happened to him, I expected him to go far back home?

[Wander00]

Pleased IOT flt cdr bashing has died down, might have felt myself persecuted................

[X767]

Other way round. Pete Azzaro was an outstanding keeper for the very successful College side during his three years on 83. Mike Radforth wasn't a footballer, but a good tennis player

[Haraka]

BOING. Re GB.
Had a chat with him around 1977 at Gütersloh . IIRC he was with some visiting G91's.
Fortunately the stripper on 101's Grad. had on a fair bit of RAF Uniform- initially . This included an SD hat worn by the preceding act , which was a 101 Rock Ape doing a faux strip tease in his No 1's ( " Unfortunately the Commandant wouldn't let us have a real stripper guys -- so here's "Rocky!!!")
At the end of his turn he threw the hat stage left and from behind the curtain a dainty hand reached out and caught it- and she was on.

[Wander00]

ISTR those two as Cadets a couple of Entries ahead of me

[HTB]

X767

Yep - a nagging doubt has been sitting in the old swede; I thought it might be Pete who was the goalkeeper (despite his relatively short stature). And now I recall playing many games with Mike as his doubles partner on our lengthy deployments to Midway Island (27 Sqn - 1970s).

Put it down to age, and still recovering from hefty surgery and copious amounts of drugs and chemicals, even 18 months after the event...well, mainly age, really:{

Mister B

[BEagle]

HTB wrote: on our lengthy deployments to Midway Island (27 Sqn - 1970s).

Fortunately, after we inherited 'that' role, we used the VC10K3. So our detachments were at Hickam....:ok:

A never to be forgotten moment when I was told that I had to go to Hawaii for an unknown length of time. 'twas hell, I tell thee!

Yet another capability today's little RAF no longer has...:uhoh:

[The_1]

Are you old sweats having me on? Was it ever 3 years long....blimey how those airpower lessons must have flown past! I suppose it was mixed in with a first degree then was it? Much like what some countries still do now I guess?

My stay was long enough - thank goodness I didn't have remedial or Mash. I don't think I could have hacked it. Not because the course was hard. If anything I would have preferred it harder as it would have really sorted the wheat from the chaff but also because it would have taken the stuffing out of those who felt they were above it all.

Best memories are those of drill periods. Always hoping that you could be just that split second faster than some unfortunate soul who caught the eye of the drill pig. Oh and the first inspection when half the course was picked up and as punishment had to march to CHOM late one evening - so there we all were marching in unison and I started whistling the theme tune to the great escape, and then everyone did. Of course I only felt that brave because there was no drill pig with us. They weren't that stupid to waste a lovely balmy evening!

[SOSL]

ISTR that Bandar Sultan was on 95 entry. I was told he had a flat in or near the Bunny Club on Park Lane.


There were 4 exchange cadets on 99 entry - I probably won't get their names right but here goes - Bom San Gooi (Malasia) known as Billy; Cheong Cze Chang (Malaysia) known as Charlie; (something Indian) Rehman known as Ray and Saeed Achmed known as Sid.


Ray was a bit quiet but they were all great guys who just fitted in with the cadet culture.


Sid and I hitch hiked down to the RAF Club one Friday for their Saturday night disco (those were the days!), on the way we got a lift from a Belgian diamond dealer in a big car who had an open bottle of red wine in the front when we got into the back. He lived in a big house on Ladbroke Grove and when we got there the wine bottle was empty. He invited us to stay for dinner and he cooked a respectable curry. Then we got the tube to Hyde Park and repaired to the RAF Club.


After I graduated and moved to the Student Officers' Mess - there were some groups of foreign studes doing the applied course (engineering) and someone (I was told) encouraged a lady from Sleaford to set up business in one of the rooms in the lower west wing.


Also when Idi Amin stopped paying the Ugandan studes they used to hang around the entrance to the bar and hope someone would buy them a drink.


Ain't life funny.


Rgds SOS

[HTB]

Beags

Having experienced (in a part-time fashion on 35) the primary 27 sqn role, only fitting that in due course you picked up the more agreeable role (if you discount the possibility of polluting yourself and the airframe with some unpleasant particles). Although being based at Hickalulu is a bit excessive (or had the USN accommodation on Midway already been condemned as unfit for for Truckies/Tankers?)

Double nostalgia in the image - XH558 at Scampton fitted with the laser guided photon torpedo...


http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab239/MisterB2/558_scampton_zpsb6cf8df5.jpg


Mister B:ok:

[John Purdey]

The1 is right. The course was indeed 3 years long. It contailed many utterly redundant academic items, such as, just for example, a very detailed treatment of thermodynamics. But the man weakness was that there was not enough flying taining; I seem to recall that it amounted to about 300 hours, but spread over the last two and a half years of the course. This may help explain why the accident rate among ex-cadets was so high.i

[Haraka]

When 99 entry arrived in Sep 68 we were informed of the new Graduate Entry system decision and those that were willing and able then transferred across, albeit , in most cases with a one year delay before going up to University. During this time we were in the Cranwell "mill" and a number of us were "chopped". The rest of us who got through this year were then told to "write it off to experience" :) before being commissioned and going up into the rarified atmosphere of academia.
On our return , having spent three years taking money from the taxpayer in the meantime, we went through a ( then noticeably watered down) IOT circus for a second time, in company with the other Graduate Entrants , again with a number of these being shown the door. It has to be admitted that a couple of ex-99'ers also engineered their departure, having exploited a loophole in our permanently commissioned conditions of service.
My point is this .
Would it not be a good idea to consider a system, based upon this for us, "wasted" time, in which officer selection and IOT is done before sending those who were successful off on University cadetships post IOT, thus sorting the wheat from the chaff three years early, and then subsequently being able to put successful graduates directly in to branch training on their return ?

[Wander00]

Certainly when I was an IOT flt cdr early 80s we got graduates that were un-commissionable at the end of the course but in some cases we were told to "graduate" them, especially any engineers who stood any chance of making it in service, as they were in short supply

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Wander00, it was my experience that some of the Flt Cdrs were a long way short of the mark around that time also. One on our sqn nearly got us flattened by 100 tanks at night, and my own was court-marshaled 2 years later and dismissed the Service. Some were excellent, mind.

[The_1]

Fox..

Tanks as in the trundle...trundle...trundle booom type or something else? Can't imagine RAF offr cadets involved in any exercise that would involve a Div's worth of tanks.

The old courses definitely were harder!

[Deskex76]

Fox..

Nov 83 SPTA night navex near Imber with stretcher-borne "casualty", by any chance? Those really were tanks of the trundle...trundle... (clank).. variety. It was foggy, too...

[Wander00]

Fox3/Deskex - "C" Sqn?


There was a flt cdr on my sqn who allegedly told a recoursed cadet that "Anywhere else they would have given you a loaded revolver on a green baize table, but instead they have sent you to me"

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

December '84. 'D' Sqn, Camp 2, SPTA.
4 days of freezing fog. Being in the Tri-Service Orienteering Squad, I had by now been specifically forbidden from having a map because it made it too easy for the others. The cadet lead got us thoroughly lost on an early afternoon lead, with a similarly clueless Flt Cdr. It was approaching sunset when the Flt Cdr turned to me and said:
"I've no idea where we are. Get us out of this and I'll buy you a pint"
"You'll buy us all a pint"
"OK, done. By the way, there's 100 tanks and 200 other AFVs coming over the plain in 3 hours"
":eek:"

Two cadets went hypothermic on the way back as well. The base camp had been advised to the Army, and there were lights to string up around the wood they were in. But we were in the middle of the plain & basically f#cked if we didn't get back. It is not pleasant being in the dark, in the fog, with 2 real casualties and able to hear the distant rumble of 300 AFVs. They can't see you, they can't hear you, and they won't even notice when they flatten you.
We made it back with 4 mins to spare.

This probably allowed me to graduate first time, as up till this point I was told I had had more nights on restrictions than any other cadet in IOT history (who passed).

p.s. DeskEx -ISTR being the casualty (another means of making sure I couldn't be shown a map), but not sure if it was this ex.

[Wrathmonk]

C Sqn Flt Cdrs. Ah, the memories.

1985. Night before Black Thursday one of the C Sqn flt cdrs decides to have his flight around his for drinks. One on the flight was expecting to graduate as a flt lt (eng grad, older than the norm with plenty of mil relevant civvy experience). Flt cdr asks him whether he is looking forward to graduating, family looking forward to it, gold braid at the grad ball etc.

10am the next day he chops him!

Cadet appeals, wins (sort of) and is recoursed instead. Graduates 12 weeks later and is now, I believe, a wearer of scrambled egg on his SD hat. The flt cdr left, I believe, at 55 (and still as a flt lt).

[Haraka]

That's the sort off thing that happens when your training system goes Comprehensive.........

[Deskex76]

Fox 3/Wanderoo..

Same Sqn, Fox, different courses.

To have been stuck on the plain amidst that quantity of armour would have been "entertaining", if quite an impressive sight (OK - in those conditions, sound).

My Flt's night-time stroll in the fog, a Camp 1 affair, simply brought us reasonably close to some of HM's clanking horse-substitutes as we stumbled across, I believe, a Sandhurst exercise in the wrong place. Whilst there weren't hundreds of tanks/AFVs in this instance, those that there were did seem to get close enough. The worst part was being the casualty (possibly for similar reasons to Fox's although I might be flattering myself about my ability with maps..), with a misty view of the stars but no way to gauge accurately what was happening on the ground. It all ended well, though, so no harm done..

[The_1]

Yeah correct decision taken by you guys ..when the tanks are on the Plain and there's some doubt about whether they know you're there or not. My Staffie was in a land rover, and hit an AFV at night coming the other way. Broken ribs, cheek bone, leg, hand. Only thing that saved him was that he had his helmet on so when his head smashed into the windscreen, it wasn't his head that cracked. Super bloke and glad he made a full recovery.

Well some enlightening insights here - I wish that's where today's course was .. a bit more arduous putting people outside of their comfort zone in order to show people how to fight thru' or the role of leadership or allowing people to realise that people can have diverse strengths that can add to the team. I'm not saying make it a platoon commanders battle course - simply to use NAVEX, or field conditions to bring people out of their comfort zone.

I'm not up to speed on the content / format of the current course. I've heard there's a lot more academic been added on - I wonder at whose expense? One thing I did like was the 360 assessment during the Basic /Intermediate /Advanced Leadership phases i.e after your lead saying what you thought what you did well/bad and allowing your team members to assess your performance. What I really did not like was the number of 'injuries' preventing people taking part in the final race on Sennybridge, yet making a miraculous recovery the next night at the bop!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

It's now 30 weeks long, I see. It was 18 weeks long thirty years ago. I understand 6 weeks is additional fitness due to the state of many coming out of school. I can't see what more is needed. Get out on the job I reckon.

Perhaps they now have to have 6 weeks 'diversity' training;maybe some ginger taff lumpyfront or jock tosspot complained ;)

[The_1]

Yep I agree with you OJT would be better.

Really don't see the sense in extra fitness if I'm honest. If they can't be fit on their day of entry then they don't deserve to start the course. And in any case, if by that age they haven't cottoned on that they are entering the Armed Forces and that a certain standard of fitness is expected then they are in the wrong profession. In the first week, they should be given a fitness test and told that their first chop point decision depends on them passing the fitness test. Get on with remedial in your own spare time.

More time should be spent in man-management (sorry person management) cos that's what some of them might have the fortune to do, or Appraisal writing or Airpower studies, or how to lead Adv trg or a Staff Ride or studying the characteristics of great leaders....

I wonder if the tempo of deployments have had an impact on our syllabus?

Don't know if the foreign station visits still happen, and whilst something to look forward to, better value could be got from UK visits - Air Comd, JHC, JFC, Waddo, etc Or a multi-trade HQ like the JFAC that would show them how the trades all complement each other. These would at least give them something to aspire to later in their career.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The fitness problem isn't really their fault, and it's nothing new. One of my great-Uncles was a PTI bringing recruits up to scratch during WW1, in a program they had to bring in before basic training started. Besides, it's not just 'pass a test' fitness that's the problem, it's the all-day everyday endurance they lack too.

[muppetofthenorth]

I'm not up to speed on the content / format of the current course.

More time should be spent in man-management

If you're not up to date on the course, why pass comment on what should be in it?

Has anyone here been near IOT in the last 10 years? Doesn't remotely sound like it from the comments I'm reading. I would know. I have been. I was there between 2009 and 2010. Can't say what's there 'extra' because I don't know what wasn't there beforehand, so unlike all the rest of you keyboard warriors, I'm not going to speak up on crap I don't know about.


If that all sounds too angry or too bitter, then do remember that everyday in virtually every thread all I read is about how this air force - and consequently the people in it (though that no longer includes me, but does include a huge number of very close friends) - is useless, worthless and a waste of space.

[The_1]

Errr nope ...I never said anything bout it being useless or worthless. In fact I think that the leadership training that I was exposed to was better than what I was exposed to in other parts of the Armed Forces. I just do wish it had continued throughout and not finished as early as it did.

But that doesn't stop me from sayin what I would like to see in it to make it better. Yep I've not seen it in the last 10 years - that's why I asked. And from the answers I think this site's members are a goldmine for anyone who might be interested in learning about stuff that was there in the past and which worked well. Seeing as you were there recently why not add something to balance up the debate - sounds as if you could speak up about crap you do know something about.

What I do see is the comments on here about how it has changed therefore I choose to make a comment.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

+1

Muppet - none of what I've said, on any thread, has in any way criticised the personnel. All the criticisms I've made have been of the political control of the RAF and certain VSOs whom I think have not stood up for the Service for the sake of their own retirement baubles. I think that is the tone of most of the old lags - we do not blame you lot. It cannot be pleasant to have your Service criticised, but that is not Your service criticised. I think your assertion of "and consequently" is incorrect.
On this thread's topic, I was asked to attend the CCF Officers course at Cranwell about 10 years ago, along with another ex-FJ pilot-turned-teacher, to help the newbies through the course. I had no complaints about the trainers or training. The course did a bit of the Selection Centre testing. The WIWOL guy and myself still passed easily, everyone else failed miserably, so I have no complaints with the entry standards ;)

If you have some data on what's in the current course, and why it's 67% longer, I'd like to know also. I understand and agree with the requirement for further fitness training. I've always taught in sporty public schools, so the guys and girls I've seen go on to Officer Training have been fine, but they've all said what a bunch of "wheezers" the other kids were.

..and if the exercises are a bit more safety-conscious now so that one isn't going to get run over by 100 tanks on a freezing foggy night, that gets my vote. I'll laugh about it now, but it was deeply troubling at the time.:suspect:

[Old Bricks]

Whatever the length of the officer training course is now, it must be a better scheme than the time in the 90s (?) when the course at Cranwell was short and dominated by fitness training, leaving the general service training - and officer training generally - to be done on the stations. Remember the Filofax that junior officers had to carry around to learn and get signed off on things they should have been taught before being commissioned? I don't remember how long it lasted, but it was a complete pain for management. ISTR the Cranwell course length was extended eventually to take back the training responsibilities into the training machine.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I thought the admin training with the Office Simulator they ran in the 1980s was fantastic. I have used that stuff almost every day.

[Wander00]

Fox 3 - we got something right then. Mind you it always reminded me of an incident in my early weeks as OC Money on a fighter station in the Lincs Wolds. My boss, OC PMS, and I had arrived at about the same time, he on promotion and me, a re-entrant, from the last Admin Sec course at the Towers, where the new boss had been the lead instructor for our course. Friday afternoon about 1500 a woman with crying toddler in arms is ushered into my office by my corporal who is trying to keep a straight face. Visitor busts into tears and tells me husband posted in from Germany, but straight to fitters course, she in MQ, no money and electricity about to be disconnected. She tells me she feels suicidal.


I am convinced the whole thing is Friday afternoon wind-up by former instructor, now boss. Then I begin to realise this one is no wind up. However like the office trainer it might be, this is real. Finally resolved by call to Halton which reveals that husband has just been paid in cash his entire disturbance allowance for move from Germany and it is currently stashed in the barrack block! Finally arrange for him to pay money into their cashier and I give same sum to wife. She stops crying, baby stops crying and I go for well-earned beer. I believe the incident was written up as new scenario for the office envex phase.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Yup, everything about that phase of the course was fantastic. My first job out of IOT (holding before BFTS) was as ADC to a 2 Star (AO Maint), who let me see everything (and I do mean everything) in his In tray for 4 months - with these two experiences I learned a heck of a lot. I have had friends who were everything from plant managers and CEOs to Headmistresses and Government come to me with admin problems. I apply what I learned, advise them, and it has worked every time.

The example you describe was typical - find a way to provide people a service and apply the rules.

I liked the way some stude in the office sim would occasionally have naff all to do, sometimes for hours. Very realistic.

p.s. Also learned that OC Money, OC Catering, and OC Regiment are the first people you invite to be honorary squadron members of your fighter squadron - remarkably useful people to know.

[Wander00]

Fox3 - first part of planning a Command Accounts Inspection (HQRAFSC) was to ring OC Money and tell him that when I flew I was happy, and when happy I wrote kinder reports - so how many hours was he going to get me. Idea was (because I had it booked already) was to see how good (or not) the relationship was between OC Accts and the customers. Most years ZA at Valley held the record, getting me both Hawk and rotary time. best was with Max C when he was Staish, and we repeated the Ex 1 he and I had flown together in 1966 when I was on the Gnat course.

[The_1]

Yep have to agree about Office Sim - great and really hit the mark. Also really liked the Adv trg up in Scotland - one week and one particular rock face taught me a lot about myself.

I really appreciated a sesh about discipline and charges altho' that might have been delivered post IOT. Would have liked a lot more about SJAR writing and the pitfalls of bad report writing. I can't recommend enough to JOs to take the opportunity to attend a promo board. It will show you the huge numbers of fine calibre people there are as well as the fairness of the system, and the small differences between a very good individual and an excellent one.

A really good idea I experienced in another part of my life, was a session with those that will be/should be a JO's right and left shoulder upon first posting - your SNCO and WO. No harm in bringing these guys early and letting them have their say on what they want from an ociffer, and what they can do to help him/her. I'm seen too many think a 6mth course at the College of Knowledge and a university degree gives them a Master's in life.

But again I have to come back to the selection and quality of those entrusted with taking the cadets thru' the IOT at such a formative part of their career. If it's just a question of there being a flt cdr gap needing filling, and the selection process simply consists of a preference to be in the Lincolnshire area.. then I'm not sure we're doing right by our peeps or the standards of the Service.

[Hamish 123]

The office sim - probably the high point of my time at Cranwell!

I found it pretty easy, and raced through all the stuff I had been set to complete. Having nothing else to do, I did a spoof series of memos etc highlighting the low birthrate on the fictional RAF station, and requesting sperm donors. I then submitted it all to the two directing staff in the next room.

About 10 minutes later, there were bursts of laughter, and the two of them came hobbling out with walking sticks, volunteering for the donation programme. I seem to remember that I got pretty high marks for the office sim phase, and the spoof was referred to in my final report.

[NutLoose]

Certainly when I was an IOT flt cdr early 80s we got graduates that were un-commissionable at the end of the course but in some cases we were told to "graduate" them, especially any engineers who stood any chance of making it in service, as they were in short supply


I believe we had one of them, despite having the paperwork sitting on his desk for weeks, he calls some (Married with kids) lad in and tells him he is going on a six month unaccompanied to the Falklands, in days, and I mean one or two before his departure...

[sunshiner]

One thing for sure is that the officers leaving Cranwell now are (in the main) far more astute, military-minded and far more capable (because of the trg) than the officers leaving Cranwell in the 80s and 90s. AND they now how to put together a bloody good 'operational estimate'.