NEW NEM IBNs

[downsizer]

Two new IBNs reference future career structures out now... IBN 19/14 and 20/14. Something to get yer teeth into....

[ALM In Waiting]

Thanks for the heads up downsizer. Would you be willing to give us the gist of them? Particularly, extensions for SNCOs already signed on to 22 years? I'm almost sad enough to wonder into work and look but away from camp today.

[VinRouge]

Any news what PA is going to look like in terms of extended TOS?

[downsizer]

There is stuff about both those issues in them but I haven't got the IBNs to hand... They're both on airspace if you have an account. If anyone hasn't added it before I have them to hand again I'll flesh it out more then...

[downsizer]

Rough gist

Key Features for All Groups

Key features of the proposed structure for officers and ORs are as follows:

a.​The introduction of a new 12-year initial Commission/engagement for all officers, Direct Entry SNCOs and ORs, except officers in the Legal, Chaplains and Medical Support Officer (Specialist) Branches, who will retain a 6-year Short Service Commission. The new 12-year Commission/engagement reflects the feedback from Consultation and will bring the following benefits:

(1)​Better alignment to the career structure for the technical trades.

(2)​A consistent approach across rank groups and specializations.

(3)​Increased job security for individuals and the opportunity for personnel completing their initial Commission or engagement to qualify for the Resettlement Grant.

(4)​The opportunity for the majority of junior RAF personnel to draw a FHTB home ownership loan of 50% of salary, after completing Phase 2 training and a minimum of 2 years’ service from enlistment.

b.​The replacement of the current 22-year engagement for ORs, and the 16/38 and 18/40 PCs for officers, with a new 20/40 Commission/engagement. This will align with the AFPS 15 EDP qualification point, and will provide a consistent approach for all rank groups and specializations. However, transitional arrangements will be required to allow some ORs who have remained on AFPS 75 to qualify for their Immediate Pension, which is payable after 22 years’ reckonable service from age 18.

c.​All length of service-based Commissions and engagements will be subject to an upper age limit of 60.

d.​Although re-engagement will, in the main, normally be linked to promotion, greater freedom will be allowed for selected personnel to be re-engaged independently of promotion. Numbers will be determined by Service need.



Key Features for Ground Trades Personnel

In addition to the Key Features for all Groups, the proposed structure for ground trades personnel are as follows:

a.​The introduction of a LOS 32 engagement for Chf Techs. This recognizes the extra time taken, on average, to reach FS in the technical trades and the need to maintain sustainable trade structures.

b.​The introduction of a LOS 35 engagement for FSs and WOs and selected lower ranks.

c.​The introduction of opportunities for selected personnel to serve to age 60.

Key Features for Direct Entry SNCOs​

In addition to the Key Features for all Groups, the proposed structure for Direct Entry SNCOs are as follows:

a.​The introduction of a LOS 30 engagement for FSs and selected Sgts.

b.​The introduction of a LOS 35 engagement for WOs/MAcr and selected lower ranks.

c.​The introduction of opportunities for selected personnel to serve to age 60.

Key Features for Ground Branch Officers

In addition to the Key Features for all Groups, the proposed structure for Ground Branch Officers are as follows:

a.​The introduction of a LOS 30 Commission for Ground Branch officers at Sqn Ldr rank and for selected Flt Lts. This would replace the existing Commission to age 55.

b.​The introduction of a LOS 35 Commission for Ground Branch officers of Wg Cdr and Gp Capt rank, and for selected lower ranks. This is a change from the proposals briefed during the Consultation Roadshows and would replace the existing Commission to age 55.

c.​The introduction of opportunities for selected personnel to serve to age 60.





Key Features for Flying Branch Officers

Key features of the proposed structure for Flying Branch Officers are as follows:

a.​All officers would join on a 12-year Initial Commission but would be automatically extended to the 20/40 point on successfully qualifying on their first operational aircraft type.

b.​Officers from Sqn Ldr to Gp Capt, and Flt Lts assimilated onto the PAS, would be offered service to age 60. This reflects the particular long-term sustainability challenge faced by the Branch.

Key Features for Legal, Chaplains and Medical Support Branch Officers

Key features of the proposed structure for Legal, Chaplains and Medical Support Branch Officers are as follows:

a.​A 6-year Short Service Commission would be retained for officers in the Legal, Chaplains and Medical Support Officer (Specialist) Branch as discussed above.

b.​A 12-year Initial Commission would be introduced for officers in the Medical Support Officer (Environmental Health Officer) Branch.

c.​At Sqn Ldr Rank:

(1)​Officers in the Legal Branch would be offered service to the 20/40 point, with service to LOS 30 and beyond by selection only.

(2)​Terms for Chaplains and the Medical Support Officer Branch are subject to further work and will be published in autumn 2014.

Key Features for Air Rank Officers

Officers at AVM rank and above will continue to be engaged for the duration of their current assignment, with the opportunity to be re-engaged if offered a subsequent appointment or appointments. This approach would be extended to officers at Air Cdre rank.

[4everAD]

So no immediate EDP or pension if you join up aged under 20 and serve LOS 20/40. A very sneaky way of saving quite a lot of money.

[tsot]

4Ever...Looks like they have thought have that one....

[QUOTE]b.​The replacement of the current 22-year engagement for ORs, and the 16/38 and 18/40 PCs for officers, with a new 20/40 Commission/engagement. This will align with the AFPS 15 EDP qualification point, and will provide a consistent approach for all rank groups and specializations. However, transitional arrangements will be required to allow some ORs who have remained on AFPS 75 to qualify for their Immediate Pension, which is payable after 22 years’ reckonable service from age 18./QUOTE]

[downsizer]

I thought those people had been offered extensions of service?

[4everAD]

No not ORs, also this will effect ALL future under 20 year olds commissioned or not. I suppose it is parity of treatment everyone gets screwed!

[Just This Once...]

Not great for the ground branches. LOS35 all the way to gp capt, so a joiner at 18 would be out 7 years shy of a pension and a 22 year old graduate would miss full pension by 3 years. Make air cdre and employment is by assignment so no guarantees there either.

The latest pension draft has age 55 as the earliest you can draw a full pension, albeit actuarially reduced to reflect how short you are of the magic 60. As such, joining before the age of 20 appears to be a really bad move.

Any news of transitional arrangements for those currently in the flying branch and currently capped at age 55 - ie definitive offers of extension to 60?

[Just This Once...]

No not ORs, also this will effect ALL future under 20 year olds commissioned or not. I suppose it is parity of treatment everyone gets screwed!

As I understand it you serve to the later of 20 years or age 40. So your 18 year old would serve to age 40 having accrued 22 years of service at the EDP point. So in this regard early joiners are not disadvantaged, but it looks like they get screwed later on.

[4everAD]

JTO, no you have to meet both requirements at the end of your service, be at least 40 and have served at least 20years. If short on either you only receive £10k resettlement grant and nothing else till 65!

Edited to add: I defer if the new engagement has changed to how you describe it JTO, it certainly was as I described for the old schemes. I may well be confusing EDP requirements and the new engagement structure. If it is as you describe then with pensionable service starting from day 1 whatever your age it makes sense to join up as young as possible to get 3 or 4 years more pension/seniority on the 20 year olds!

[The B Word]

Here is another 'gotcha'...

If you were aged 45 or over on 1 Apr 12 and in the 'Protected Cohort' who will not transfer to AFPS 15, then the IBN says that you will be allowed to serve on the new commissions/engagements, even if they take you past age 55. However you will not be able to transfer to AFPS 15 because the 'Protected Cohort' was defined as those personnel within 10 years of their Normal Pension Age (age 55) on 1 Apr 12. As a member of AFPS 75/AFPS 05, the Normal Pension Age of 55 will not change, even if the Service allowed you to serve past the Normal Retirement Date. Therefore, you remain within the 'Protected Cohort' on AFPS75/AFPS05. There is no scope to change this as the transitional protections offered to members of existing schemes have been set by HM Treasury and apply across the Public Sector.

Rubbish! :(

The B Word

[ALM In Waiting]

Thanks for the gen downsizer, guess I'll have to wait until the autumn for specifics.

[Whenurhappy]

B word,

I'm in the same situation as you, but in real terms what does it mean? Is my pension frozen at 55?

[The B Word]

Whenurhappy

If you're on AFPS75 then the maximum pension you can earn is 37 years - so if you joined at 21 then you would not increase your pension for your last 2 years of service. If I PVR then I lose pension for the rest of my life, so I'll just have to work for no extra pension over 2 years.

It looks like 2nd and 3rd order effects of this is hidden in the headlines.

Why do I get the impression that NEM is a cost saving exercise despite the protestation that it isn't!

The B Word

[Whenurhappy]

Oh dear! Off to the Forces' Pension Society on Monday...

[gr4techie]

So no immediate EDP or pension if you join up aged under 20 and serve LOS 20/40.

JTO, no you have to meet both requirements at the end of your service, be at least 40 and have served at least 20years. If short on either you only receive £10k resettlement grant and nothing else till 65!

Can someone please clarify if this only effects people who join after 2015 or does it effect everyone?

Will OR's currently on AFPS75 still serve 22 years and will then receive the immediate pension ( worth the fraction x/22nd's of how many years you did under afps75) ?

I joined age 18 and 11 months. I'd meet the "at least 40" criteria with 22 years service but not 20.

If people are going to loose their immediate pension due to the goal posts moving, I predict a lot of PVR's, there's no longer the incentive for experienced guys to stay.

[4everAD]

GR4, my bad, IF the new engagement is to 20 years or age 40 which ever is the latter then all is well as it would tie in exactly with the EDP 20/40 requirements and no one loses.

My concern is based on the current ORs under 18 who couldn't meet the EDP 18/40 goalposts. IF everyone is swept up into the new 20/40 and it is to 20 years service or age 40 whichever is the latter then that would seem to give them back their opportunity to leave with an EDP.

You seem bullet proof time GR4 as you will not be forced to serve less than you are already signed up for so you will see out your 22 at the very least.

[4everAD]

Right I have read the IBNs and must say I'm confused by the following bit:

Align the RAF’s career structure with two key features of AFPS 15:

(1) The revised Early Departure Payment (EDP) qualification point, reached after 20 years’ service or on reaching age 40, whichever is the later (the 20/40 point).

(2) The revised Normal Pension Age of 60.

My understanding and reading of AFPS15 rules were that it is NOT whichever is later, you have to meet both requirements at point of departue.

This is unconsequential if the new LOS 20/40 goes to "whichever is the later" as it will cover the requirement. But with such an obvious mistake in the text what else isn't quite right? Have they changed the EDP requirement of AFPS 15 to the new whichever is later? I thought that the whole must be aged 40 thing came from the Tax people saying you couldn't have pension related benefits if you were under 40 (the pension calculator certainly works on meeting both requirements).

I could be wrong or making a mountain out of a mole hill but this possible mis-interpretation of the AFPS15 rules in such an important IBN is seriously misleading.

[Voxpop]

gr4techie

If you are an AFPS 75 or AFPS 05 member who gets transferred to AFPS 15, your benefits built up to 1 April 15 will be protected. I gave someone a steer on one of the other military sites this morning which might clarify things for you.

The chap in question was on AFPS 75 and would be leaving at the 22 yr point in Dec 15. He would get:

An immediate pension of 96% of the AFPS 75 22 yr rate for his rank and a tax free lump sum of three times that amount

PLUS

A preserved AFPS 15 pension worth 1/47th of his pensionable pay for the balance of his service. This is payable at his State Pension Age.

An EDP lump sum worth 2.25 times the preserved pension

An EDP income stream worth at least 34% of the preserved pension


The point others were making was about the 18 yr old who joins for a 20 yr period. He would be too young to get an EDP as he would only be 38 when he left. He would leave with a preserved pension payable at State Pension Age

[The B Word]

Whenurhappy

I'm in the process of applying for an FTRS post pre-age 55 so I will be able to transfer to AFPS15 (as it is automatic) and will get to serve to 60 (or maybe even 65!!).

So if I get the job (and this works well for AFPS75 guys who are willing to drop 1-2 ranks) then "I'm alright Jack!". I meant that tongue in cheek, but it may give you another option to consider?

The B Word

[Whenurhappy]

I'm in (long) training for my next appointment with an extension of service to 57; there is, all things being equal, a likelihood of being offered service to 60 at the same rank. I wrote to SPVA some time back when this was offered and, after many delays and making a Service Complaint, they eventually confirmed that my AFPS 75 remained unchanged (but also qualified it that they didn't know the impact of NEM - there's a thread running in parallel to this). Having said that I joined the RAF at 28 so I won't run too foul of the maximum years for pension accumulation.

I need to seek professional advice as soon as I am back in work; not having regular access to DII or JPA compounds the problem.

[Party Animal]

If you were aged 45 or over on 1 Apr 12 and in the 'Protected Cohort' who will not transfer to AFPS 15, then the IBN says that you will be allowed to serve on the new commissions/engagements, even if they take you past age 55. However you will not be able to transfer to AFPS 15 because the 'Protected Cohort' was defined as those personnel within 10 years of their Normal Pension Age (age 55) on 1 Apr 12. As a member of AFPS 75/AFPS 05, the Normal Pension Age of 55 will not change, even if the Service allowed you to serve past the Normal Retirement Date. Therefore, you remain within the 'Protected Cohort' on AFPS75/AFPS05. There is no scope to change this as the transitional protections offered to members of existing schemes have been set by HM Treasury and apply across the Public Sector.




Reading the above brings 2 questions to mind:

1. For those in the 'protected cohort', will there be a pay increase once the pension can no longer be contributed to? - by the same amount, pay is currently abated?

2. More a question for our pension specialists but isn't the govt trying to ensure that all companies should enable employees to contribute to a pension? How would that 5 year gap be covered between pension stopping at 55 but working until the age of 60?

Any guesses?

[Party Animal]

If you're on AFPS75 then the maximum pension you can earn is 37 years -


B Word,

I'm on AFPS75 and just tried the pension calculator on the basis of working until 60. The maximum level of pension it came up with was to a limit of 34 years. Where did you get the 37 number from?

Also noted the 2nd IBN which gives 28 days for individuals to decide if they wish to extend their career, for those in the first batch. If 28 days is the norm for everyone else to decide whether to extend, that is one hell of a short timescale to make a decision when there are still so many unknowns with items like pensions!

[Red Line Entry]

Party,

Under AFPS 75, 37 years is for airmen (whose pension accumulates from age 18) whereas for officers it is 34 years (as the pension only starts accumulating from age 21).

Interesting second order effects. Let's take a high flying aircrew gp capt, say stn cdr at 45 and gets offered promotion. Probably got a couple of kids at boarding school as he's followed the flag to be loyal. Now he's got a choice, become a one star with a smallish increase in pay but he could be kicked out after 2 years and CEA will disappear along with the salary; or he could sit on his backside, take it easy and have guaranteed employment to 60. Wonder how many will choose the latter...

[downsizer]

REL

that's a good point but the NEM is also to include manning levers whereby if they decide you are resting on your laurels or coasting they will be able to make you redundant without the need for full scale redundancy boards of old...

[Fintastic]

Well, now that they plan to let PAS personnel serve to 60, I do hope that the PAS pay spine will have an additional 5 increments added to the top of the scale! After all, the original was designed when we only had to work to 55......surely it should be adjusted to fit in with the new employment terms?



Stop laughing........I mean it! Stop laughing! :}




We all already know the answer..........:=

[junket]

Party, what i understand with this curent offer is that 28 days is designed to get as many acceptances processed as possible, quickly, in order to inform Next years ITTs and help to bridge the strength liability gap as we go into SDSR next year. Besides the considerations for this cadre are minimal hence the short turn around time.



And the concern from the thrusting aircrew community is already being talked about in cafe1!!

[Party Animal]

junket,

Guessing where you sit at HWY, is there any discussions on accepting applications for PAS up to the age of 55?

amongst everything else!!

[Just This Once...]

As for PAS pay increments the extension to 60 would mean I would serve for around 17 years stuck at the top level.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I know it's not the PPRuNe way, but there must be some positives to come out of this.

People on PAS were complaining, people not yet on PAS were rejecting it, because of the fear that the gap between 55 and 60 would leave them stuffed with no pension.

Now, we've had confirmation that all PAS Flt Lts will be offered an extension to 60, ensuring that they can retire on a full, immediate pension.

The complaints now start that it's another 5 years on the top pay scale. JTO, if you're looking at 17 years on level 35, that means that prior to this you were still looking at 12 years! The top PAS levels seem entirely fair compensation for the job. I'm annoyed you need to be promoted to get the final 5, but overall it seems like a fair pay scale. Now it interfaces with the pension, and if you're in the mid-to-late 30s bracket and on or about to start on PAS, you're probably one of the very few who can benefit from AFPS15 (career average when your salary profile runs from level 20 to level 35 PAS).

We're never going to get a 100% pay rise and the job will always have its issues. But in terms of the things that have frightened people recently, surely this is good news? Service until the new pension age?

I'm not too worried about the "manning levers;" the discussion around them seems to centre on being able to let large tranches of people go when types are removed from service, like Harrier/Nimrod/etc in 2010. Not to look at individuals and kick them out with nothing.

[VinRouge]

As for PAS pay increments the extension to 60 would mean I would serve for around 17 years stuck at the top level. Simples! PVR once you hit max accrual. Its what everyone else is doing. Why would you want to stay in to accrue a huge pension with current work life balance as well as the impact of the job on your long term health prospects? Hit level 35, hit the button and run!

We're never going to get a 100% pay rise and the job will always have its issues. But in terms of the things that have frightened people recently, surely this is good news? Service until the new pension age?I would certainly agree. I think manning have pulled a blinder by wangling this, especially as everything is so 'joint' with respect to pay and pensions. Lets remember, life, especially at the moment, is a compromise, I think with the pressure on pensions at the highest level, this must have been hard won and goes part way to recognize the concern regarding retention of experience at the moment. FRI so soon after the redundancies was never going to happen as it would look to the electorate as if the government made a mistake in sacking 200 baby pilots.

I'm not too worried about the "manning levers;" the discussion around them seems to centre on being able to let large tranches of people go when types are removed from service, like Harrier/Nimrod/etc in 2010. Not to look at individuals and kick them out with nothing.

All well and good, but its going to make mannings job of posting people to dying fleets interesting!

[alfred_the_great]

It must be hell to be paid £80k/year for 17 years, guaranteed.

[viz]

Here is another 'gotcha'...

If you were aged 45 or over on 1 Apr 12 and in the 'Protected Cohort' who will not transfer to AFPS 15, then the IBN says that you will be allowed to serve on the new commissions/engagements, even if they take you past age 55. However you will not be able to transfer to AFPS 15 because the 'Protected Cohort' was defined as those personnel within 10 years of their Normal Pension Age (age 55) on 1 Apr 12. As a member of AFPS 75/AFPS 05, the Normal Pension Age of 55 will not change, even if the Service allowed you to serve past the Normal Retirement Date. Therefore, you remain within the 'Protected Cohort' on AFPS75/AFPS05. There is no scope to change this as the transitional protections offered to members of existing schemes have been set by HM Treasury and apply across the Public Sector.

As someone with no access to DII or IBNs I'm confused :confused: Could someone please tell me..

Has the 28 days acceptance to extend to 60 started? If not, when will it start?

I'm in the Protected Cohort - is the idea that I would still receive my pension at 55 with no further pension accrual? What happens to my basic (PA) pay from age 55 to 60 - is it abated as the pension will have kicked in?

Thanks

[m0nkfish]

How does someone benefit from a career average pension based on level 20 through to 35 (AFPS15) versus a pension based on just level 35 (AFPS75)? I would have thought that someone on PAS would still be worse off on AFPS15? What am I missing??

[kintyred]

Alfred,

£80k pa sounds great, except that it's not the market rate for an experienced pilot. I have a friend earning twice that for one of the major airlines. Of the twenty or so JPs with whom I served on my first squadron, I was the only one to serve past 50... all the others buggered off to the airlines; more money, less work! Me? I just loved my job too much!

[Party Animal]

Viz,


Has the 28 days acceptance to extend to 60 started? If not, when will it start?

I'm in the Protected Cohort - is the idea that I would still receive my pension at 55 with no further pension accrual? What happens to my basic (PA) pay from age 55 to 60 - is it abated as the pension will have kicked in?




The offer to extend to 60 is many months away, so don't worry just yet.

You will not receive your pension at 55 if you stay in till 60. You will be paid as normal but your pension growth will be limited to 34 years for officers if you are on AFPS 75. The only difference is that when you do leave at 60, your pension and gratuity will be based on the pay you are earning at 60 and not on what you were earning at 55.

[jayc530]

Am I right that a Sgt/Chf Tech promoted after Apr 15 will only be offered LoS 35 and not service to age 55?

If that is the case what incentive is there to stay in?

[downsizer]

No. Promotion to ct brings LOS 32. Prom fs brings LOS 35.

[jayc530]

Downsizer

Promotion from from Chf Tech to FS or Sgt to FS only gives you LoS 35 not to age 55.

[Roland Pulfrew]

jay c

The IBN says that anyone who currently has service to 55 will retain the right to serve to 55. Or at least that was my reading of it.

[Climebear]

Downsizer

Promotion from from Chf Tech to FS or Sgt to FS only gives you LoS 35 not to age 55.

IIRC the mean average age of RAF recruits entering the Service has been 22-23 for some years now. So LoS 35 should benefit a fair proportion.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Monkfish,

How does someone benefit from a career average pension based on level 20 through to 35 (AFPS15) versus a pension based on just level 35 (AFPS75)? I would have thought that someone on PAS would still be worse off on AFPS15? What am I missing??

An accrual rate of 1/70 on AFPS05 vs 1/47 on AFPS15. If your salary during your AFPS15 tenure is already at the top of your band, or is only going to increase a small amount, or you have less time to serve, this can benefit you.

If you only have 10 years to serve, 10 at 1/47 vs 10 at 1/70 is better if your average salary for those 10 years is near enough your final salary. Even a new-ish PAS person, 15 years at 1/47 on the average between £60k and £70k is better than 15 years at 1/70 on £70k.

Basically, have a look at the pension calculator. I have some forecasts that place me better off under a combined 75/15 pension in some ways.

[downsizer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayc530
Downsizer

Promotion from from Chf Tech to FS or Sgt to FS only gives you LoS 35 not to age 55.


Yes, that's what I was saying though reading it back it's poorly worded.