Pilot killed in crash at Travis AFB air show

[MtSpeedDemon]

From USA TODAY:

Pilot killed in crash at base air show

Pilot killed in crash at base air show (http://usat.ly/1q4VRu1)

[flyboyike]

I know I'll catch heat for saying this, but low-level aerobatics at 77?

[PFR]

Seems from video to take a long time for Fire & Rescue to be on the scene :( The a/c was lying upside down for a period of time before fire broke out. You'd have thought at an airshow Fire Vehicles would have been very close to the display line. Sad whatever :(

[Desert185]

I know I'll catch heat for saying this, but low-level aerobatics at 77?

Considering your age, I won't. You just don't know any better.

[Gemini Twin]

Nothing to do with age my young friend, Eddie was a master. RIP.

[flyboyike]

The issue is was he STILL a master at 77, my aged sage of a friend.

[aviatorhi]

Reflexes diminish with age, that's a fact, if you deny that then... :ugh:

However, it is too early to imply age was a determining factor in this crash, time will tell.

[flyboyike]

I agree, aviatorhi, and I wasn't suggesting this accident was caused by his age (or was due to any kind of pilot error). I was only wondering if this kind of flying is a good idea at that age regardless of result.

It's just that I live in Central Florida, and get to watch 77-year-olds trying to park at Publix®...

[Gemini Twin]

Unkind flyboyike!


"The issue is was he STILL a master at 77, my aged sage of a friend."


Sadly not any more old chum, not any more. We'll miss him.


As for your comments about 77 year olds parking, try not to judge all demographics as the same. That would be a mistake, there are experts and idiots in all groups. Eddie was as good an aerobatic pilot at 77 as any one in the airshow business today.


Another seasoned veteran is Bud Granley. I'm sure he would get a chuckle by your ignorant and shallow comments.

[flyboyike]

Try to debate the issue and keep emotion out of it, Gemini. There are all manner of things one can do at 77, I'm not sure why aerobatic flying has to be one of them. Now, I can understand when crusty, half-dead airline captains display the "you'll pry that yoke out of my cold, dead hands" attitude (they have ex-wives to feed), but to keep playing with a Stearman? There comes a time to say when.

[Desert185]

Flyboy

Keep the emotions out, but insulting and condescending is OK, eh?

[MarcK]

There are some 39 year olds who shouldn't be flying. I knew Eddie, and I'm sure he could park a car at Publix. He was a careful pilot. I'll be waiting to see what the NTSB says.

[flyboyike]

So, there is no possibility that a 77yo might "remember his moves better than they are"? Is that what y'all are telling me?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This accident has really got me to thinking about why these accidents keep happening over and over and to some of the best pilots in aviation.

So after much soul searching I am going to try and explain what I think is the core reason they happen.

First off I post using my real name and my opinions are formed from actually having been an air display pilot for eight years and known and flown with some of the best in the world.

When Glen Dell died last October I was in a state of disbelief for weeks and kept looking at a picture I have of Glen and his wife Jackie and me and my wife Penne on a sail boat in Cape Town smiling and happy as kids.

As the months passed and I have slowly accepted that these things happen and Glen is gone and my wife has gone because of cancer I keep wondering why some of us go on and some do not.

There is no real clear answer, however with regard to air show accidents there are several factors which do definitely add to the risk that can be changed.

In Europe we had a 200 foot floor at all airshows that was very strictly enforced , had there been the same 200 foot floor limit at the airshow in which this pilot died he would still be alive.

Only about one in a hundred spectators have a clue about the skills needed to perform any of these displays, so why add to the risk by performing at an altitude that allows for no error?

As the age thing my thoughts are that yes, as we age our motor skills decay.

I held an unrestricted airdisplay authority for eight years and when I turned seventy I made the decision to retire because of age.

Was I still capable of flying to the same standard?

The examiner who renewed my air show license signed me off as competent....but inside I had changed and felt it was time to quit so at the end of the 2005 season I did just that.

Now I sit and just plain miss those who were not so fortunate.

Being the best in the world is not everything because once gone the crowd soon forgets who you were.

Chuck Ellsworth.

[flyboyike]

The examiner who renewed my air show license signed me off as competent....but inside I had changed and felt it was time to quit so at the end of the 2005 season I did just that.

Now I sit and just plain miss those who were not so fortunate.

Being the best in the world is not everything because once gone the crowd soon forgets who you were.


Exactly, Chuck, exactly. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I realize that we all, as pilots, at least privately, believe that each of us is the very best in the world, and that when we hang up the goggles, the world will suffer a loss from which it won't soon recover, but really isn't it better to gracefully exit stage left than to burn up in an airplane? Does anyone truly prefer the latter?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

flyboyike , I guess it all reverts back to the decision making process that we use to stay alive in this industry, the decision to retire based on examining the facts we have to examine is no different than cancelling a trip because the risk was to high.

[flyboyike]

Indeed.

It's just that the decision to retire or even any suggestion to consider any such thing is taken by some as some sort of a personal affront, an assault upon their manhood etc.

Flying is a skill set, only a skill set, and a very perishable and degradable one at that. The suggestion that one gets progressively worse at it after a certain age ought not be taken personally any more than a thunderstorm ought to be taken personally.

[Gemini Twin]

flyboyike, I think I know where you are coming from and your points have validity. However out of respect for Eddie I will refrain from further comment.

[flyboyike]

Feel free to keep this particular pilot out of it (as I have), try to debate the issue, not the individuals.

[Desert185]

Skills do deteriorate with age, but not at the same rate for everyone. Some pilots begin their career with a higher level of capability and set of skills than others. Blanket statements don't apply to individual pilots.

One of my last flights as an airline captain was with an FO who couldn't enter a hold. I had to take the aircraft from an experienced, ex-USAF, four engine jet, aircraft commander. He didn't even have the grace to say goodbye or apologize for his display of ineptness, temporary or otherwise. He is still there and I have been gone from the airline's left seat for 10 years. That is only one of many similar stores. I know there is a limit, but I hadn't reached mine. I also recall flying with some captains when I was a young co-pilot who should have pursued another profession. Age was and is only a portion of the capability equation.

Now, 10 years later at age 70 I still fly a 747 and a DC-8 doing airborne science research, ironically for the same government that mandated airline pilots retire at age 60. I also fly my own 185, primarily in the backcountry.

Do I know my own limitations? Yes. Am I going to retire again? Yes, but on my own terms and not because of an arbitrary decision based solely on age alone. Meanwhile, I have the best hobby job on the planet that isn't motivated by Flyboy's insulting claim that older airline pilots have ex-wives to support.

As long as I meet the training standards, check standards and operational requirements, I have been allowed to fly. I enjoy it immensely and they enjoy the experience that I and others like me contribute to the operation. What concepts.

Sincere condolences to Eddie's friends and family. RIP

[flyboyike]

You're not doing aerobatics 5' off the deck, though.

[evansb]

Not too many F1 drivers over 50 years of age. The oldest was 58, I believe.
In 2013, Michael Schumacher at 44 years of age, was the oldest current driver on the F1 circuit, until he sustained a serious head injury while skiing. He retired in March, 2014.

NASCAR drivers average age is between 25 and 40, so perhaps similar to F1, but Morgan Shepherd, at age 72, is the oldest active NASCAR driver.
He failed to qualify for this year's (2014) Daytona 500.

And who can forget New Zealand's Burt Munro, who, in 1967, at 68 years of age, set a world speed record for motorcycles under-1000 c.c. The record still stands.

Due to an ageing demographic, the average pilot age is indeed increasing. I don't doubt that we will see more crashes involving senior, (65 and older), aerobatic pilots, as well as recreational/private pilots.

RPV pilots withstanding, I doubt that many of the world's air forces are going to recruit 43 year-old fighter pilots any time soon.

As of 2013, the life expectancy of a white male living in California is 80 years. Life insurance premiums don't decrease as we age. Dang it anyway..!

[flyboyike]

Due to an ageing demographic, the average pilot age is indeed increasing. I don't doubt that we will see more crashes involving senior, (65 and older), aerobatic pilots, as well as recreational/private pilots.


I'm afraid you're right, especially as this "aging demographic" seems to with age lose the ability to conduct any sort of even basic, common-sense risk assessment. A case in point would be our friend Desert185's comparing his successfully flying a 747 at FL370 to low-level skydancing in a Stearman. Those two situations have nothing in common other than both involve an airplane.

[Gemini Twin]

Perhaps Ernest Hemingway sums it all up:
"The error of youth is to believe that intelligence is a substitute for experience, while the error of age is to believe experience is a substitute for intelligence."

Happy Landings.

[flyboyike]

Very, very well-put.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

With regard to this accident I made this comment in my first post.


In Europe we had a 200 foot floor at all airshows that was very strictly enforced , had there been the same 200 foot floor limit at the airshow in which this pilot died he would still be alive.

Had such a restriction been in place we would not be having this conversation. ( Assuming he did not have a heart attack or a stroke. )

We can not control aging, we can control safety to some extent.

[Desert185]

With regard to this accident I made this comment in my first post.
Quote:

In Europe we had a 200 foot floor at all airshows that was very strictly enforced , had there been the same 200 foot floor limit at the airshow in which this pilot died he would still be alive.
Had such a restriction been in place we would not be having this conversation.

We can not control aging, we can control safety to some extent.

...and, unless making a biased and uneducated assumption, we still don't know if age was a factor in this accident. Assumptions abound, but that doesn't make fact. If so, we would have to readily attribute youth and inexperience to accidents involving the younger and less experienced demographic group within our profession.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Desert185 I am not making a statement of fact regarding this persons age having been the factor in his death, I am merely saying that surface level inverted ribbon pick ups leave little room for error and from what I have read on this accident there was a wind factor during that performance and it was his second attempt at the pick up.

Therefore had there been the same height restriction at that air show as we had in Europe the accident would not have happened.

Another interesting issue regarding the 200 foot limit for low level demonstrations was the crowd could actually see the demonstration, conversely when the airplane is only a few feet above the runway a lot of the people cant even see it.

My personal opinion is really not all that radical, I believe that flying demonstrations can be performed with accuracy and skill at a level that gives some room for error.

Surface demonstrations leave little room for error.

[barit1]

200 feet. Did this apply to Ramstein 1988?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

200 feet. Did this apply to Ramstein 1988?

I don't know.

I did not start flying in the airshow circuit in Europe until 1997 and the 200 foot floor rule was in force then.

I flew for the French Flying Legends and flew in the first airshow in Munich in 1998 that was held after that crash closed air shows in Germany.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=french+flying+legends&client=firefox-a&hs=JEW&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=9xhtU-LeDYj4oATT3oHQDQ&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=587

[JammedStab]

Very cool Chuck. What kind of aircraft did you fly for the Legends and what sort of maneuvers did you do with the type you flew?

Must have been fun.

What type?

[JammedStab]

I know that you flew the Canso in Europe, was that your airshow machine?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I know that you flew the Canso in Europe, was that your airshow machine?

You must be a Canadian? because only a Canadian would call a PBY a Canso. :)

If you are asking what aerobatic airplanes I flew the answer is the Pitts S2B and the Super Decathlon.

[Two's in]

200 feet. Did this apply to Ramstein 1988?

Although the trigger event for the accident was inadequate and constrained vertical separation between 2 formation elements, the key factor in the high death toll was the energy vector being towards the crowd line. A correctly enforced deck might have avoided the mid-air, but air shows now (mostly!) prohibit energy vectors that will take the aircraft towards the crowd following a mishap.

[bcgallacher]

The older I get the better I used to be.

[flyboyike]

Ain't THAT the truth!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Sometimes I wonder about the questions asked here, reading Jammed Stab's questions I am curious as to what he / she gathered from my answering the questions.

Apparently he / she knew I flew the PBY in European airshows and wanted to know what else I flew.

So now that I have answered the question Jammed Stab, which do you think is the most difficult to fly in a airshow, the PBY, the Pitts Special or the Super Decathlon?

[djpil]

This accident has really got me to thinking about why these accidents keep happening over and over and to some of the best pilots in aviation.
So after much soul searching I am going to try and explain what I think is the core reason they happen.
.......
There is no real clear answer, however with regard to air show accidents there are several factors which do definitely add to the risk that can be changed.
........
Being the best in the world is not everything because once gone the crowd soon forgets who you were.Chuck, perhaps a subject for another, general thread?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Chuck, perhaps a subject for another, general thread?

You mean a new thread to discuss how airshow safety can be improved?

[djpil]

Yes, just a suggestion as I would expect a thread on that topic to attract more contributions and your post seems to be ideal to kick it off.