Is it possible to be 'too Joint'?

[Melchett01]

I was at a dining in night during the week, and in conversation after dinner about the various movers and shakers and what peoples' opinions were as to who was likely to go where, the question turned to VCDS. Whilst there was a general acknowledgement that the ACM hadn't done too badly for a Midlands lad, the opinion was that he would probably have to retire at the end of his tour as the RAF would never let a Navigator become CDS and he was too Joint so the the RAF wouldn't want him back.

Now, regardless of what happens to VCDS, the comment about being too Joint did make me wonder. We are constantly told that Jointery is the way ahead, I have been on numerous ops where there have been individuals from all 3 services around the planning table and with ever decreasing budgets and equipment levels, it seems that the principle of effect rather than capability is going to become more important.

So, at what point does an individual stop being an RAF officer and become a Joint officer? I'm not advocating a move to a single Defence Force, but there are undoubtedly areas where we do actually work better together. And if an individual serves repeated tours outside of the mainstream RAF and is subsequently told their career is over as they haven't got the requisite light blue experience, just where does that leave the individual - especially if they have served outside mainstream light blue at the behest of Manning?

[Roadster280]

Surely future candidates for CAS have their careers shaped so that they do get the requisite single service experience, along with joint.

Those that get too much of one and not enough of the other might take that as a combat indicator.

[wg13_dummy]

So, at what point does an individual stop being an RAF officer and become a Joint officer?

At the same point one stops being a civvy and realises that they are a part of the military?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Yes. Next question.

Seriously, though, being so concentrated on the Defence Wood, it is possible to lose cognisance of the Single Service Trees. I believe that great crusader for jointery, Lord L Mountbatten, became too obsessively Joint. I think he believed, though, that the RN would always be the lead Service. His Joint vision gave us the MoD, now taken to its inevitable conclusion where no single Service has a Minister to represent it. As I see it, this removal of political representation has politicised the Services. If 1SL/CGS/CAS have no political representation, they must become political themselves.

Just my observation, for what it's worth.

[Pheasant]

Why would VCDS want to be 1SL, CGS or CAS? His only interest would be CDS surely? In the case of Peach he faces very stiff competition with Zambellas and Pulford - both excellent candidates for the top job, with Z as the more political animal and the right man to lead the post Afghan defence posture (ie expeditionary based around the CVFs). CJF is probably the best option for VCDS.

Peach could be DSACEUR.

[Wrathmonk]

The current VCDS took up the appointment in May 2013 so realistically has one more year in post. He will be 59 next year. Does he have the 'reach' for another tour or will it be directorships at BAESystems, Thales etc as the next step?

[MaroonMan4]

My personal thoughts:

1. Those (of all 3 Services) of 2 star rank, aspiring for 3 and 4 star will become loyal to the political requirements well before Joint and single Service patronage ("the Minister is always right").

2. HMG and especially HMT does not want a truly joined up HM Forces. Just think what would happen if all three Services (from top to the bottom) actually agreed on what capabilities (equipment procurement, organisation, and size) a future fighting force should be. The current (and historical) inter Service in fighting allows HMT to divide and conquer.

3. Jointery works not because of any political will, VSO direction or doctrine publications, but simply by those on the ground that work with what they have, to do the best that they can at the operational and tactical levels. When peoples lives are on the line, and you operate or lead a capability that can help, then regardless of the colour of your cloth you will try your damnedest to help. The realistic Joint training opportunities (for a Land Component led campaign) presented during the latter stages of HERRICK of MST/MRX/PDT helped educate all at the tactical level of what exactly we all bought to the party, and what the true 'Caps and Lims' were (not the bluff or pea cocking sometimes seen on PowerPoint briefs). Unless you truly are a 'one stop shop' deployable and cross component capability (like the USMC) then this will always be the case.

[betty swallox]

The days of not being joint are long gone. We have to be now. If we ever procure an MPA/MMA, for example, we would HAVE to be, and SHOULD, be joint about crewing it. No question.

[Whenurhappy]

I'm not so sure that there is a 'being too Joint', but, possibly, not being ' RAF enough'. A good friend of mine went Joint about 15 years ago and we were talking about this the other day. He, like me, did a series of Joint, Policy and overseas appointments and did pretty well in them, but it was, in his case, a matter of 'out of sight, out of mind'. OJARS written by a non-RAF CoC (and worse, a non UK first RO*) just don't seem have the same gravity of Light Blue ones; silly really, when roughly 30 of the RAF is outwith of the traditional RAF environment. In my friend's case, and in spite of an extensive Service, operational, Joint and international experience, colleagues who 'have stayed close to their desks and have never gone to sea' in a series of dull, but visible, staff appointments have been promoted above him

I am minded of my own situation about an OCR (pre-OJAR) about 10 years ago when the Desk Officer of the time asked rather naively 'what rank is an Ambassador?**' and then insisted I got a light blue officer in the reporting chain. Some random Wg Cdr I'd never met wrote some drivel about him as 2nd RO, clearly trumping what the Ambo said; nevertheless I shouldn't complain, as it got him promoted to Wg Cdr.



* A non-JPA OJAR - an NSAR - strips the non-UK 1st RO of his or her rank and appointment when it is entered on to the system, so the Board have no real idea who wrote the observations and made the recommendations on the subject officer.
** FYI, an Ambassador is normally regarded as a 2*.

[Lonewolf_50]

If you want to understand why "being too joint" has hazards, look at the F-35.

My own personal axe to grind was the T-6 JPATS "joint for the sake of joint" training program ... but I'll not wander down that rat hole as only our Canadian friends may have common cause in that.

[Evalu8ter]

MM4- quite right, particularly when that desk is located in Manning it seems....

The promotion system creaks and moans nowadays-the temptation for like to promote like is overwhelming; hence those that go "off piste" are rarely given the credit they possibly deserve. Re the "too joint" comment, perhaps it's just coincidence that most if not all of the high flying SH guys at the top of the RAF haven't done a Gp Capt or above tour in JHC HQ.