Another Compensation Award

[Saintsman]

£560K for a RAF nurse who was overlooked for promotion because she was femail :hmm:

RAF nurse sues Ministry of Defence for sex discrimination | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2618709/RAF-nurse-treated-wounded-soldiers-awarded-560-000-compensation-suing-Ministry-Defence-sex-discrimination-passed-promotion-female.html)

[MPN11]

Oh, God, another significantly overweight "medical professional" having a whine.

Bloody woman ... she gives the whole profession a bad name. :ugh:

[glad rag]

So her case was proven, right?

[Just This Once...]

The tribunal's report is well-worth a read before thinking about criticising the lady.

[Background Noise]

But they are allowed to have all-women shortlists for parliament? :confused:

[MPN11]

Curiously, some people with less time in rank had been promoted before me too. And the same applied to the OH.

Does anyone know a good lawyer who could pull this £0.5m stunt on my behalf, and indeed for my wife? An extra £1m would be quite nice.

Bloody woman ... and the stupid Court that let her get away with it. Does the RAF really need a "registered nurse and midwife who had served in the RAF since 1984".

Hello, dear, it's a fighting Service, not a bloody Maternity Ward.

[Can't Hover]

Hang on, so this is a Gp Capt Nurse winning a case for not making to 1* instead of a Doctor? How on earth do we have Gp Capt Nurses in the first place? Isn't that like putting a Loadie in charge of a station?

Whatever next? Soon they'll be letting Adminners get above Wing Commander! :ugh:

[MPN11]

Whatever next? Soon they'll be letting Adminners get above Wing Commander!

We had a [formerly] ATC 2-star :ok:

Check Six :uhoh:

[lj101]

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/williams-v-mod.pdf

Tribunal report as above - it seems she was written up by all as the better candidate for the job.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Does the RAF really need a "registered nurse and midwife who had served in the RAF since 1984".

Hello, dear, it's a fighting Service, not a bloody Maternity Ward.

You know those military personnel who are based overseas, in places like Cyprus? Who do you think does/did the catching of the offspring dropping out of their dependants?

She may not do much catching anymore but keeping up ones registration is always handy.

Yours,

The Helpful Stacker, R.N.

[seadrills]

Well done Wendy - this was well deserved and as we discussed at the time, clear discrimination.

The comments on this thread are typical of a promotion board and clearly display the very reason you chose to bring this action.

Wendy, you get my vote and I wish you all the very best for the future.

[Roland Pulfrew]

You know those military personnel who are based overseas, in places like Cyprus? Who do you think does/did the catching of the offspring dropping out of their dependants?

Err, the Cypriot "NHS"???? It's been a long time since TPMH existed!! :=

[wg13_dummy]

Well done Wendy - this was well deserved and as we discussed at the time, clear discrimination.

The comments on this thread are typical of a promotion board and clearly display the very reason you chose to bring this action.

Yes of course.

And clearly a doris sprog catcher warrants the rank of 1*? Wtf??

Of course, the promotion board unanimously said 'hmm, shes a female. Lets not promote her'.

A taxi driver can deliver a baby ffs. What makes her so special?

Do you think she'll donate some of her half million 'winnings' to those wounded soldiers she helped? If she had any leadership qualities that would have secured her the promotion, you'd like to think so.

[NutLoose]

Should fund a nice Wendy House

[thing]

A taxi driver can deliver a baby ffs. A taxi driver could probably fly a fast jet. Plenty FJ jocks in top posts.

Come to think of it a milkman did pretty well flying Buccs.

[wg13_dummy]

Whats so hard about flying an RAF fast jet?

Squirt down long runway, climb to FL nose-bleed, whazz around for an hour or so, land then claim you've defended the country against Crazy Ivan and his desperate push to convert Westerners to communism, take a few snaps of an ageing Bear and live off the Battle of Britain for the next 70 years.

Bunch of wasters actually. Totally qualifies them to run the RAF.

[Surplus]

wg13D,

don't forget all those airshows they have to attend, here in Oz, our creme de la creme go on 'Operational Excercises'.

[Two's in]

Wow, just wow.

I do believe we have just cracked the secret of time travel. Here we are back in the pre-suffrage days. I used to be a misogynist but now I'm just a dick...

[wg13_dummy]

Very true, Surplus!

I had a 'heated discussion' with a senior RAF officer a while back. The conversation turned to who actually supports who and the purpose of the RAF.

His opening gambit was that the RAF defended UK airspace. He followed this argument with 'well, you dont see Russian Bombers infringing UK airspace so therefore we justify our existence'. I responded with the analogy that I have a special rock that defends the UK from invading rabid Wildebeest. There are no rabid Wildebeest in the UK so therefore the rock must work. He looked confused. I then pushed the argument that in this day and age, the sole purpose of the RAF was to support the pongoes. He obviously disagreed. I then offered the following:

The RAF operates the following aircraft;

E3D Sentry - supports ground operations directly and indirectly. When did they last 'fighter control'?
Sentinel - Battlefield and ground surveillance (with an equal proportion of Army operators)
Shadow - as above
Typhoon - Fighter. 1 to the organic RAF but lose a point for the FGR4-support to ground troops
Tornado GR4 - ground troops
C130 - Troops
C17 - Troops
Chinook - SH - Troops
Merlin - SH - Troops
Puma - SH - Troops
Tristar - Fly troops
VC10 - Fly troops

The aircraft the RAF operate that dont directly or indirectly support the Army are;

Spitfire
Hurricane
Lancaster
Red Arrows
Things that fly the Royals

He stormed off in a huff surprisingly.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Wg13d

I'm not surprised he left. There is no point in trying to fight such a narrow view of Air Power. It is regrettably that simplistic view that all VS army officers have. The "it's all mine and I must see it fly, directly supporting me, all of the time" view, despite it being utterly naive. Air Force officers might just as well say:

Infantry - there to protect airbases to support the airmen
Armour - there to protect airbases from people with armour to support the airmen
SF - there to protect airbases, sneakily; to protect the airmen
RE- there to build and repair airbases to support the airmen
Artillery - there to lob stuff at people trying to attack airbases only a little further out than the infantry and the armour to support the airmen
Really Large Corps - there to make sure the fuel and food gets through to support the air base.
Bored now.
Fortunately I am not that naive; don't take such a simplistic (and erroneous) view on things.

[BEagle]

Some years ago, I was in charge of recruiting at a large UAS (University Air Squadron, nothing to do with drones). The first sift of applications from aspirant candidates was made by someone else, who checked them for acceptability within the HQ UAS rules, before the candidates were called forward for interview.

I found a pile of applications in his office, all of which were from girls. When I queried why they'd been separated, he told me "Oh, we've got our quota of female applications - we're allowed 10%".

I told him that we were now in an age of equality and to put them back into the main pile of candidates. After much grumbling and sulking, he did so - and at least one of the girls who would otherwise have faced his highly questionable 'gender ban' made it through the interview process and went on to become an excellent squadron member.

That was some 25 years ago, so I'm amazed that this case of clear discrimination ever went to a tribunal - MoD should have known that they could never win. Good to see that justice prevailed and I hope this lady enjoys her compensation payment.

[Tankertrashnav]

When I first met Mrs TTN she was a nursing officer in the QARANC - a midwife as well, as it happens. In those days all female qualified nurses (SRN or SCM) were commissioned when they entered any of the three nursing services. Men on the other hand could not enter as officers, and served as NCOs in spite of holding the identical SRN qualification (there were no male midwifes in those days).

Funny how the situation has turned 180 and it's now the female nurses who appear to be disadvantaged

[dctyke]

One question, how the hell did she (and quite a few others) manage to pass their annual fitness tests? In a time when other folks are been thrown out with nothing for failing, cronyism s rife further up the food chain.

[BEagle]

Why do people always dredge up the irrelevance of the fitness test when someone in uniform who doesn't have the physique of a racing snake is photographed?

dctyke, do you really think that this lady lacked sufficient fitness for the work she did?

[Wrathmonk]

Not exactly another compo claim.

Click here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23053008) - BBC report dated 25th June 2013 and PPRuNe thread here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/517824-discrimination.html).

I guess it has taken all this time to settle appeals, confirm amounts etc.

[Martin the Martian]

What I find from this thread is just how little people know about what nurses actually do. I spent many years as a nurse in the NHS and it's more than just dishing out pills and wiping bums. And, as far as those who nurse in the military, talk to those who have spent time with the MERT/IRT teams.

wg13_dummy:

Anyone, including a taxi driver, can deliver a baby as long as everything goes well and there are no complications. When there are complications... well, midwives don't spend four years in training for nothing, or do you think that your taxi driver knows how to cope with breech birth, dystocia, cephalo-pelvic disproportion, haemorrhage, foetal distress or any one of a hundred and one other problems that can occur in even the most normal labour?

dctyke:

I've worked under a great number of senior nurses in the past, some good, some not so good. Those who bring their experience, compassion and leadership to the party have a damn sight more to give than whether they can run fast enough, quite frankly. And when the emergency bell rings they'll still be there as quick as anyone else.

And quite why the RAF thinks that doctors but not nurses can be promoted to 1* rank is beyond me. I cannot think of anywhere in the health sector (private or public) where such a blinkered and outdated view still exists, and in light of that fact that both professions are equally involved in MERT/IRT taskings it is even more incredible.

[air pig]

Having read this thread, and being an ex PM, when I was around the the Matron in Chief/Director Nursing Services (MiC/DNS) was a one star rank, this was dropped when we contracted in size after Options for Change. As one of the early commissioned male PMs, we were looked upon as being 'invaders' into the cosy PMRAFNS as previously all male nurse who were commissioned were in the Med tech branch. In fact the PMRAFNS of all three services had the first male MiC/DNS in Bob Williams who was Matron at Wroughton and then eventually made Air Commodore.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/404920-flight-angels-daily-mail-article.html Fiona McGlynn is now a Squadron Leader.

Looks like the RAF medical hierarchy have dropped a big clanger in this case, would any aircrew suffer, and we have heard of the many exploits of Air Commodore Joan Hopkins in the Fighter Control Branch, by the same bar to promotion, I think not. This maybe a case of Doctors trying to limit nurses progression and not having a nurse as their 'boss'.

[Tankertrashnav]

Why do people always dredge up the irrelevance of the fitness test when someone in uniform who doesn't have the physique of a racing snake is photographed


My son, a former REME corporal, has left the army with few regrets after having been passed over for promotion by those who impressed the hierarchy by their participation in sport, cross country etc, in spite of being indifferent tradesmen. I should add he never failed an annual fitness test. He is now doing a very similar job to his last army one - the difference being that he is earning about 50% more and is not being badgered to go and play sport for the greater glory of the company!

Since I left over 30 years ago it would appear to me that the obsession with physical fitness in the armed forces has become a fetish, to the point that it trumps trade efficiency.

[gr4techie]

I have always considered the RAF's promotion system very very subjective. In my experience the reporting officers comments will be based on how much they like you as a person and the joke of how often you've gone and played golf with them?

The problem with hierarchy systems is those at the top tend to promote people who support them in their current position and not necessarily the best person for that promotion vacancy. Do they want to promote people who will show them up and who will criticise their decisions? Or do they want a yes man?

What should happen is an objective promotion exam. This could be done in the format of a theory exam and practical, for example leadership and management exercises. This would prove you are indeed the best person for the job.

There's a successful software company that has an interesting way of working, it has no rank structure. Because of this, all the employees are free to comment and criticise each other work and contribute ideas. Have a read and see what you think of their way of work?http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1074301/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf

P.S. Tankertrashnav. I read your comment with interest. For years technical trades have been underpaid compared to what we earn in civvy street. I don't know of anyone who has PVR'd and then been worse off, the NE oil and gas industry has caused a manning crisis at one RAF unit. However, "mannings" inability to differentiate between experienced, skilled, qualified manpower PVR'ing and a 17 year old kid straight out of school joining the RAF a few months ago, has lead them to deny this.
On the point of fitness tests... The standard we have to get to is not high in the grand scheme of things. It's relatively low compared to what other people achieve. I completely disagree with the pass mark for females... I consider myself very fit and in athletic competitions, you still find females beating 1000's of men. It is a myth that females can not be as fit as men.

[MPN11]

I long advocated an element of "upward reporting" by senior subordinates to be used as a "tie breaker" by promotion boards. Sadly, 'buttock nuzzling' is the preferred method, with all the potential deficiencies (and others) that gr4techie refers to.

My career came to a halt after my last promotion, when my new boss admitted, on arrival interview, that he hadn't wanted me in the post as we had 'history' as JOs. My annual reports reflected that, of course. The lights went out, and I started looking for the best exit strategy.

C'est la vie.

[Haraka]

Some years ago, I was in charge of recruiting at a large UAS (University Air Squadron, nothing to do with drones). The first sift of applications from aspirant candidates was made by someone else, who checked them for acceptability within the HQ UAS rules, before the candidates were called forward for interview.

I found a pile of applications in his office, all of which were from girls. When I queried why they'd been separated, he told me "Oh, we've got our quota of female applications - we're allowed 10%".

I told him that we were now in an age of equality and to put them back into the main pile of candidates. After much grumbling and sulking, he did so - and at least one of the girls who would otherwise have faced his highly questionable 'gender ban' made it through the interview process and went on to become an excellent squadron member.

That was some 25 years ago, so I'm amazed that this case of clear discrimination ever went to a tribunal - MoD should have known that they could never win. Good to see that justice prevailed and I hope this lady enjoys her compensation payment.

Do remember folks that, despite our banter, many of us "Cold War Loafers" were actively fighting for our sister officers' rights before most of you were born.

[vascodegama]

Not sure where I stand on this one-45 pages is a bit too long when the pub is open. I was a bit confused by the statement that nurses retire at 50 and doctors at 58. Was also surprised by the statement that the RAF had had no female 1star before 2012.

[dctyke]

Why do people always dredge up the irrelevance of the fitness test when someone in uniform who doesn't have the physique of a racing snake is photographed?

dctyke, do you really think that this lady lacked sufficient fitness for the work she did?

Beagle, I'm sure she did her work really well however RAF regulations are getting junior ranks thrown out even though they are 'sufficient' fitness to do their work. Are you saying stated RAF regulations do not apply in her or other senior officers cases?

[air pig]

That would have been a surprise to Air Commodore Hopkinson and the many 1* PMRANFS Air Commodores.

[thing]

My son, a former REME corporal, has left the army with few regrets after having been passed over for promotion by those who impressed the hierarchy by their participation in sport, cross country etc, in spite of being indifferent tradesmen.

Twas ever thus in the RAF too. I left almost 20 years ago but it seemed to me that it didn't matter how good you were at your job, promotion depended on being NCO i/c the bloody frog sexing club or some such nonsense. I went off and did an HND Electronic Engineering off my own bat, mainly out of interest and for future employment prospects but also thinking it might impress. It didn't. Should have stuck to frogs.

However my efforts I'm glad to say were far more appreciated in civvy street...:)

[cornish-stormrider]

I saw the writing on the wall after my last appraisal in the engine bay.
an exercise in thesauras (sp) use and waffle to say - hmmm not bad, could be better, too early to tell if this oik is CPL material....

FFS why not just say that and save the hrs wasted.
I'll not pretend life out is rosy but i do enjoy it more.

I completely fail to see the modern militarys obsession with the running up and down test. it is pretty pointless. if they are so bothered about it then up the manning and give people time to enjoy things other than getting hammered - oh wait,

As to the point of this thread - good, I'm glad she won.
If you are unable to pick the best person for the job due to sex, colour, faith or as a result of them being a hunchbacked dwarf with a broad cornish accent and an arse the size of a pit pony then you dont deserve to be in the position of leadership....

[Biggus]

I find it quite ironic when some people say that any mention of the fitness test is irrelevant on this thread.

What is the whole point of this thread - discrimination!

The lady was discriminated against, won her case and was duly compensated. Totally correct.

What has that got to do with the fitness test? Well, some people (after the prescribed number of tests/remedial/re-tests - and being assessed by the medics as capable of taking the test) are being discharged from the RAF for repeatedly failing the fitness test - that is a fact.

If (and it's a big if) not everyone who fails to meet the criteria (after the prescribed...........) is being discharged, then that represents a form of discrimination as real, loss of livelihood, etc, and valid to those involved on the wrong end as this case of sexual discrimination.

If the lady in question didn't pass her fitness test (and I'm not saying she didn't) and was still serving than she had been subject to positive discrimination in simply retaining her job.

Someone implied the more senior your rank the more likely you are to escape the ultimate sanction for failing the fitness test - personally I wouldn't know.

Tell me, is any one form of discrimination, sexual, racial, etc more significant than another? Surely they're all as bad as each other!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

This thread is pretty amazing. People really ought to spend the 20-30 mins it takes to read the tribunal judgement.

Comments like "some doris sprog-catcher" are terrible. She was OC of the RCDM Clinical Unit and then Standing Joint Commander (Medicine), putting her in charge of the military part of the QE University Hospital in Birmingham and Headley Court, which is hardly a small role.

In a 2-minute scan through the tribunal, you can see that she was consistently written up as a remarkable, A- graded, high achiever with "high" recommends for promotion and comments like "ready for 1* NOW" and "her excellent leadership and management qualities and her Role 4 expertise make her a must for the Joint Cmd DMG post" on her reports.

Then you get to the bit where an AVM picks another candidate because he was a doctor and was in his own command chain, based on no more evidence than the job titles of the 3 candidates and his own knowledge of one of them.

Then he starts saying that doctors are better suited to a role that no longer requires direct medical contact with any patients, and when asked why, or asked why strategic medical positions within the Army are held by nurses and the Surgeon General of the US Army is a female nurse but the RAF won't accept that, he has no answers.

Those saying that people with less seniority than them have been promoted ahead of them in the past have a point; except where the specific Air Rank Promotions Board that she was boarded on stated in its TORs that "when a choice has to be made between 2 officers of broadly equal merit the older, or more senior should be preferred."

It showed up a lot of interesting flaws in the promotions and appointments system. She was evidently an excellent officer, completely in the right, and thoroughly deserves her compensation.

All of us should be wary of the comments made about how the MOD was evasive, obstructive, and straight out refused to find or provide certain bits of information.

[HTB]

With a rather pessimistic view, I thought that our military medical establishment had been greatly reduced; probably engengered by the media slant when reporting the treatment of badly injured service personnel returning from current operational theatres. Thus I wondered why the need for a relatively high number of starred officers for a reduced element (bearing in mind that historically when RAFH Nocton Hall was in full swing - 740 beds, with a commensurately large staff - the station commander and senior surgeon were Group Captains).

I guess part of the answer is that the medics always seemed to be in a higher rank than their corresponding operational and support colleagues - probably because they had to undergo 4-5 years specialised training in human plumbing, electrics structural science, etc, unlike aircrew, for instance, who require only a few weeks to reach their exalted status.

Anyway, back to the topic, discrimination of any type = reason for redress (compensation), something MoD and the services seem not to learn from experience. To sort of answer my first point, this from a uk.gov website:

The DMS has:

over 7,000 regular DMS personnel
15 Regional Rehabilitation Units (RRUs) across the UK and Germany
5 Ministry of Defence Hospital Units (MDHU) embedded into NHS acute trusts
the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine (RCDM) in Birmingham
15 military run Departments of Community Mental Health (DCMH) in the UK with 5 DCMHs at the major permanent overseas bases
the DMS provides healthcare to about 258,000 people
It seems to be in good health, numbers-wise (although the site doesn't expand on whether the hospital units are wholly service, or if they are embedded in civilian hospitals). There is also mention of a number of dental support units across the operating sphere, again no mention of service/civilian provision.

So maybe some * officers are needed (but in common with other arms of the services, probaly at a disproportionately high ratio).

As to the requirement for the fitness test, I think the age for a reduced version is 45 (about the same time as biannual ECGs kick in for aircrew - might be a bit earlier, memory fails me). The last fitness test I did consisted of cycling on an exercise bike for a few minutes while connected to a heart rate monitor and a grip test where the combined left and right hand squeeze provided the required result (which was just about attainable with one hand - if you had largeish hands). So not a great challenge there for either sex.

Having shot themselves in the foot, I wonder if the instigators of the discrimination enjoyed treatment under the DMS, or if they had to use NHS/private treatment...

Mister B

[Once A Brat]

...Wow, what an interesting thread, it meanders here and there so I thought I might as well add my tuppenth.


1. The RAF operates a merit based rather than a seniority based promotion system so the female Gp Capt's seniority is irrelevant provided the male Gp Capt had met the minimum seniority for promotion.


2. The female Gp Capt would have been ineligible for promotion had she not passed her fitness test so we have to assume that she had since the alternative would mean that Manning were negligent in the applying their own rules fairly and that would never happen? :}


3. Having read the judgement, I both agree and disagree - She was discriminated against, but not because she was female but, I suspect, because she was a nurse.


Unfortunately at that level, your original branch has a lot of sway as to your employment. Prior to Simon Bryant's appointment I would have said CAS will always be a pilot, there are posts which will always be aircrew, engineers or police and the senior medical officer in the RAF is likely to always be a doctor.


However, she saw an opportunity, played the sex discrimination card and is now £500k better off, but in doing so probably put true gender equality back 10years as Manning will now be scared not to promote marginal female candidates just in case of a repeat tribunal.

[air pig]

OAB: two points, PMRAFNS retirement is set at 50 years where as a male Medical officer is 58, so therefore has 8 more years of productive service and this was not for position as SMO RAF, but as part of a tri service medical post.

[Whenurhappy]

I think some contributors to this thread are missing the point, perhaps obtusely. I think, and I hope, that we all believe in the maxim of 'best person for the job'. In this case, the tribunal has determined that the Gp Capt was the best person for the job, but has been descriminated against on the basis of gender. Physical fitness, or otherwise, is a separate issue.

I think we should be shocked, that well into the 21st Century, that sexism has reared its head again. Perhaps, having read some of the posts here, I should not have been surprised!

[MPN11]

Having read the Tribunal report in its entirety (typos et al) it seems clear that the entire boarding process was pretty shambolic, and that the subsequent MoD administration left a great deal to be desired.

[Once A Brat]

Airpig.......


Thank you however for correcting me about the post they were completing for, it wasn't for the RAF's senior medical officer (SMO has an air of Stn Snr Med Offr which is why I didn't use that abbreviation) but for a similar tri-service role. I suspect said tri-service post has never been held by anybody other than a doctor?


I fail to see what relevance your comment about retirement age has to my post. Although, if Gp Capt Williams aged 54 (in 2013 according to the BBC report) applied for the 1* role in 2011, she would have been 51/52 and therefore past the retirement age you cite. Perhaps this had something to do with her not being selected. Afterall, the Med Services are/were making redundancies in which case it would be hard to justify her continuance when there was a suitably qualified candidate under retirement age. Apparently promotion at those levels is all to do which 'reach' and if she was on continuance or near retirement then she won't have had much 'reach'. Perhaps PMRAFNS has come inline with the rest of the RAF with a retirement age of 55?


For what its worth, I genuinely believe she was discriminated against, but not due to gender but due being a nurse.

[LXXIV]

"Hang on, so this is a Gp Capt Nurse winning a case for not making to 1* instead of a Doctor? How on earth do we have Gp Capt Nurses in the first place? "Isn't that like putting a Loadie in charge of a station?"

Can't Hover:
May I suggest that you look for the last Commanding Officer of RAF Finningley:
"13 October 1995 to closure in November 1996 Wg Cdr M A Butler, B.A." before posting your comments.

LXXIV

[air pig]

LXXIV: We used to have a 1* as head of the PMRAFNS until the draw-down in the early 90s and at least a couple of Group Captains. With the draw-down all three services lost their 1* nursing posts.

When you think of the size of the PMRAFNS in the 90s we had six hospitals: Halton, Ely, Wroughton, Wegberg, Akrotiri and Nocturn Hall plus things like the present CCAST, RMCs and station medical centres which all had PMRAFNS personnel. In the hospitals, Matron was ranked as a Wing Commander. The service actually increased in size in 1980 when male nurses were moved from the Med Tech branch to the PMRAFNS, same happened when people were offered a move into the Grey Mafia(QARANC's) from the RAMC, and that was a much larger organisation due to TA Field Hospitals etc.

OAB: I suspect that no-one ever thought about equalising retirement ages in the past and have been caught out, but I do agree with your thought that this was a nurse vs doctor thing as I stated earlier and in fact the RAF have admitted as much.

[thing]

"Isn't that like putting a Loadie in charge of a station?"


Well they put pilots in charge of stations...I would think they would be about as equally qualified.

[air pig]

You also have non aircrew commanding stations. Female non flying Group Captain at Wittering when it was a flying station.

[MPN11]

And, in this case, Air Sec 1 (now a CS, formerly Air Cdre) is my old mate Spot Fuller ... An ATCO.

Best man/woman for the job ... Regardless of the shape of the sweater. But I do think that 'reach' was possibly the dominant factor in the decision, rather than gender.

[Tankertrashnav]

When I was a young rockape the Commandant General of the RAF Regiment was a two star pilot, and the most senior rock was a one star. Subsequent commandants general included some regiment officers who had made it to two star, with a further sprinking of pilots. Nowadays I believe the post has been reduced to a one star job.

Similarly an old pilot mate of mine finished his career as Provost Marshal, as good an example of poacher turned gamekeeper that I ever knew!

Plenty of precedents for non-specialists being put in charge.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Plenty of precedents for non-specialists being put in charge

Indeed, but not really relevant to this case, given that she is not a 'non-specialist' with regards to the one star position in question.

(This isn't aimed at you TTN, more a general point) I think perhaps the underlying problem with this case (which has been aptly displayed in this thread) is the continual perception by many that us nurses work 'for' doctors (and are therefore subordinate to them) rather than alongside them.

Arguably the only nurses who could be considered as working directly 'for' doctors are practice nurses within GP surgeries, but this circumstance is purely administrative.

[Roland Pulfrew]

the underlying problem with this case ... is the continual perception by many that us nurses work 'for' doctors (and are therefore subordinate to them) rather than alongside them.



Well that at least explains why the NHS is such a disaster area nowadays :E:E:E ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

Mrs TTN (retired midwife) wants your address Roland - she has a few choice words for you !

Seriously it is quite obvious that there will be times in all fields of medicine when a doctor's skills are required, and a good nurse will know when that is, but nurses do not work "for" doctors but for their nursing superiors (with of course the constant interference by administrators)!

(that's "we nurses" btw Stacker ;)).

[The Helpful Stacker]

Well that at least explains why the NHS is such a disaster area nowadays

Trust me, if nurses were simply doctors subordinates and carried out their bidding unquestionably the NHS (indeed all western health systems) would be in a damn worse state.

The saying "nurses are there to stop doctors killing people" is based on a fair slice of truth!

(that's "we nurses" btw Stacker ).

TTN - If a simple slip of grammar is all you can pull me up on my overall point was obviously well made. ;)

[air pig]

HS, that's why August was always known as the 'killing fields' when the new house officers were let loose on the wards. Nurses stop doctors killing you more times than you would care to know.

Some years ago the doctors in California went on strike and the nurses got on with the job, surprise surprise the death rate fell.