What killed the self-improver route?

[Okavango]

It looks like the days of people progressing through the old 'self improver' route are gone and the expensive fast track gamble is the only way these days. Is this partly because the smaller regional airlines who generally gave self improvers their start have been eaten up by larger competition, there are more commercial schools (CTC etc) or a general preference by the airlines (ie they don't value GA experience)?

It seems to me that their have always been commercial schools around so I can't see why all airlines would take the same, 100% view that there is no use for people who've demonstrated their skill, desire and motivation by climbing up through the system. There seems to be a fair few unhappy airline pilots around these days and I wonder if part of it is that it's too much too soon for some and that they simply self selected by throwing money at it rather than slowly working up through the system.

Faced with the old choice of very competitive airline sponsorship or self improver route, I'd hazard a guess a good few of todays airline pilots wouldn't be todays airline pilots. Sad for all really.

[Mickey Kaye]

Its not gone at all despite what some marketing departments would have you believe.

One thing that has however changed is peoples expectations. When I started out you need 700 hours to have a CPL. At that time I didn't know anyone who got an airline job until they had an ATPL (you didn't need any multi crew time back then). This changed with market conditions but in the tough early 90's I knew people who had 3000 hours instruction/paradropping etc before they moved onto commercial airline ops.

With the CPL/IR requirement then shifting to 200 hours and if we look back to say 6 years when times were good then it was common for people to drop straight into an airline job. This has changed people expectations but those times for now have gone.

I actually think its never been easier for a modular student to drop into an airline job. I have come across about 6 in the last year who all went into Ryanair weeks after getting there CPL/IR.

However for those thats not the case Jet2 and Eastern have employed "self improver's" in the last year and I very much suspect that they will in the future.

I was speaking to one of the guys at BGS about 18 months ago and he told me that about 50% of all CPL/IR that are issued are done so via the modular route so its far from dead.

[Jwscud]

It is very difficult to find entry level jobs. I had two job offers in about 8 months of looking having networked hard from day 1, and training at a busy GA type airfield. Both fell through for financial reasons - in the first case, the expected contract that would have lead them to take on pilots fell through, and in the second the company itself went under.

Instructing is still a solid self-improver route, especially if you are in Scotland, or instructing somewhere there is a lot of Bizjet activity. Bizjet crews seem to be predominantly ex-instructors themselves from those I've come across and are well disposed towards those following a similar route. Once you have the EU OPS single pilot IFR minima the world gets significantly easier from what friends have experienced.

Perversely, I found it easier in the end to get an airline job than I did a GA job!

[FANS]

You still can do it, the key is that the career has been watered down.

It used to be more like FI-twins-TP-737 , with pay going up at every stage.

Now it's easier to jump straight to 320 from CTC than it's EVER been, but that means TP man has less opportunities.

Equally, the salaries for RHS 320/737 are lower BUT money still to be made as captain.

In summary, if you have the cash why not go for CTC etc.

[RTN11]

Not sure what your point is here, the "self improver" route is still alive and well, it's just changed with the legislation.

I got my PPL, flew for fun for a while, did my ATPLs, got a CPL and an FI(A) rating, instructed for a few years, got my IR(A) and then got an airline job. Total time from starting the PPL to getting the airline job was around 9 years, had an absolute blast, and now doing the job I always wanted and with one hell of a story to tell to get to it.

I think the real question is why do people think they can buy their way into an airline with less than two years of training? Being a pilot used to be up there with being a Doctor, and yet medical students accept they have to do at least 7 years of training before they are useful for anything, while most fresh CTC candidates with the bare minimum flying hours seems to think he's god's gift to aviation and is entitled to a job at Easyjet.

[Mikehotel152]

In my opinion the job of an airline pilot is significantly easier than it used to be, which leads to less training necessary to operate to a safe standard. Less experience is necessary.

When coupled with much safer operational and legislative conditions than years gone by, and a massive growth of airlines due to the low fare airlines opening travel to the masses, means salaries are down as more candidates are available.

The medical profession is completely different, hence training and pay remain more considerable.

[PURPLE PITOT]

The job has not become easier, just that skill and experience have been replaced by more rigid sop's that don't allow operators (used to be pilots) to fly anymore.

A hull loss or 3 in the future may change things a bit.

[FlyingStone]

The job has not become easier, just that skill and experience have been replaced by more rigid sop's that don't allow operators (used to be pilots) to fly anymore.

While the second part might be true for some outfits, the first part is absolutely true. The technology in cockpit has evolved from really basic instruments to what we have now - EFIS, EICAS/ECAM, automated systems, safety protections (FBW, EGPWS), etc. And I haven't even mentioned AP/FD.

Try to imagine the an average crew flying a 4 sector duty between busy airports (without autopilot) in A320 and DC6? On which type there would be more errors during the flight?

[PURPLE PITOT]

The airbus. DC6 crews were all well trained and experienced.

[INeedTheFull90]

CTC. SSTR. Pay to fly. Buy a job.

Why slog your life away when you can just buy what you want? This creates a new market, and with cosy relationships between the schools, the airlines and recruiters, it's better for them all. The companies make money, the student buys what they want.

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Yep.....unfortunately the doors appear to readily open for the graduates of integrated schools. Its very sad because there is no difference in the quality of training nor the skills test that modular students take with the same CAA examiners. However as someone mentioned earlier the airlines that took these pilots are getting fewer and fewer.

[mad_jock]

the doors though are only really open to the pre-selected candidates so the schools have scored a spectacular own goal.

If your not pre-selected your in the same boat as the modular.

[VFE]

It is hard to see how the likes of CTC will disappear unless BALPA manage to force airlines away from contracted newly qualified pilots. Sadly I too have experienced these aviation Gods who may be slick operators of glass cockpit technology but who sadly lack the humility to realise that they've bypassed a whole wealth of experience left to poorer hard working guys slumming it in GA. It is hard to accept that whilst well oiled little robots pay their way into the better paid jobs, others less fortunate are scrubbing Cessnas at flying schools on pittance of pay in order to advance their careers but you know what? This has always been the case in aviation. Largely the reserve of the wealthy, historically becoming a commercial pilot has on the whole been a case of who has the biggest wallet. Granted, there have been many academically deserving recruits make it through to the flight deck in the past via sponsorship schemes but the majority pay and like any consumer market there are top end of the range products so we must accept that fact and move on.

There are still opportunities for modular, self improver pilots but they are just hard to find. Thankfully, and I know this not from personal experience (yet!) that those who scrape their way up feel the biggest sense of satisfaction once on the flight deck as it has been hard earned. I seek comfort in this fact and this drives my ambition to get there. Sure, if I had thousands I too would pay CTC to get me a job.

[Northern Monkey]

Ironically, the training has never cost more. £109,000 for the latest offering from easyjet/CTC without considering living costs. All at a time when the rewards on offer are reducing. It's a simple case of supply and demand though, and as yet, the cost vs reward gap isn't wide enough to deter people in significant numbers.

You have to wonder at what point the scales tip, £200,000 for an unpaid internship? I'd argue it's not out of the question.

[P40Warhawk]

But he. At the end you fly on 0 hour contract for Easy :D . That is atleast a bit better then untagged programs :D . :ugh:

[flash8]

Whilst we are on the subject why did they drop the BCPL?


Hmmmm 500 posts in exactly 10 years... nice timing!

[mad_jock]

because it didn't fit in with JAR.

[Dan the weegie]

As has already been said the modular route is alive but everyone has more people to compete with because it is so easy to get a cpl/ir and be qualified to jump into a large jet.

CTC has it's place and produces what the larger airlines are looking for. You are without question stacking the odds in your favour if that is what you want.

That said, I agree with Purple Pitot and MJ that I do think there is quite a lot of benefit from an experience perspective in getting a job flying an old crate around some bad weather sitting next to a guy who makes you angry because his farts stink of last months onion bahji and has a series of personality flaws that you would probably only find in a mental home. Or a school for very badly behaved children. It's invaluable from a CRM perspective to work in an uncomfortable environment and also it's good to fly with nothing but a few needles and a 97 year old gps :).

I do not think it makes you a better operator when you come to fly the software but it prepares you for dealing with the unexpected and how to remain calm when that unexpected thing is a bit worrisome.

A good pilot is not necessarily one who can nail the glidepath or grease it on in a 45 kt xwind, experience separates the good ones from the bad ones and you gain a lot from doing ad hoc charters and flying in grizzly weather, in bad machines, next to guys that don't speak the best English and with bad radar control.

Just because you have 10,000 hours, it doesn't make you as experienced as the next guy with the same number.

Doing an, integrated course doesn't preclude you from going to do other things, but it doesn't make you stand out in the crowd either. It only helps if you want to be in an easy, flybe, ryan situation. Not really my bag, at least for now.:)

[PURPLE PITOT]

You had a 97 yr old gps? Flash git!

[marcus1290]

I just finished modular training at the start of the year. 0 flying experience to fATPL in around 3 and a bit years and spent less than £30k. Would i do it over again instead of going integrated? Of course i would. But yes, i do feel that some companies won't look at your CV unless you have Oxford or CTC on it. Unfortunately i feel that we could now be in a position where the better pilots MAY be being left behind because they can't afford a TR. Im not saying this about everyone who goes integrated, but some of them don't really have an interest in aviation, they would be happy walking around the terminal in the uniform.

Anyone who asks me for advice, i always recommend modular. Save yourself a small fortune.