UK HELICOPTER DOWN IN AFGHANISTAN

[Kilonovember52]

The MOD can confirm that a UK helicopter crashed in southern Afghanistan today, 26 April 2014.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mod-statement-on-helicopter-crash-in-southern-afghanistan

[November4]

Thoughts with the families of those killed in the crash.

[nice castle]

From the website link, a cue for the previous poster, who may be hard of thinking:

"The incident is under investigation and it would be inappropriate to comment further until families have been notified."

Thoughts go to those involved.

[NutLoose]

Thoughts with the families and the guys at this time.

[tarantonight]

Well said nice castle.

TN.

[MSOCS]

Terrible news indeed. Thoughts with the families and friends.

Lewis, I echo nice castle's point. Unless that information is in the public domain you'd do well to keep your trap shut whether you're right or not. You may not be aware but there are processes and protocols for these awful things and these are other peoples' lives. Your ill-judged comment may have sent quite a few more people running for the telephone. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Fortissimo]

Imgaylard

Your inappropriate and untimely post has to be one of the most thoughtless and insensitive I have ever seen on this site.

AFAIK the KINFORMING process is incomplete and yet you have announced a unit to the world via the many journos who follow this forum. "Hard of thinking" doesn't even come close.

:D:D:D

Note, BBC website updated with 'believed to be a Lynx' 3 minutes after your post appeared. Enough said.

[enginesuck]

RIP - Devastated for your families.

[tailchase]

Who told the BBC what it was 'believed to be!' Either they are just as bad as others for ill timed comment or speculation or someone close to the details has said too much too soon. MOD shouldn't comment on anything until process is complete - just shows how much the press will push to say something when saying nothing is the default position as a mark of respect.

If it was MOD then someone needs a good kicking.

[NutLoose]

Msoc, the original poster has rightly deleted the post, one would suggest you remove the type also until those that may get some lousy news have been informed..

[Fortissimo]

MSOCS

I know, hence my use of 'a unit' not 'the unit'. I agree it should not have been mentioned!

Tailchase

BBC will probably have got the Lynx line from this thread (the update was within 3 mins of the post in question. They will definitely not have got the info from MOD, which has hard rules on what can and can't be released.

[sirsaltyhelmet]

Sky News just speculated the same

[MSOCS]

Nut loose, my post stands. It would do well to educate a few types who haunt these forums to let the military get on with their jobs and not 'stick their oar in' because they have a few contacts on the inside. However, what's done is done. I can only hope that the kin informing process was complete before any friends or family read Gaylard's post.

Enough.

Once again, my sincere thoughts with the families and loved ones of those lost today. RIP.

[tailchase]

Of course ' journalistic licence = fact from speculation' and Mr Beaver seems to be adding additional information of his own.

[MaroonMan4]

Nothing to say, so will move myself along.

Paul Beaver I believe has a TA (Lt Col?) role within AAC/JHC and is probably fully briefed and media savvy as one can be given that the probably as we all know that sadly the news may have to be broken ahead of families in this situation for factors we are unaware of at the moment. Maybe despite the best will and policies in the world some cannot help themselves but jump on social media (not just UK personnel based in Afg, but international forces/civvie contractors), or even the local population (majority with mobile phones and sufficient mobile coverage in the bundu) get the information to those that would seek to use it for their own purposes. Of course, if it is later discovered that it is an ill informed over zealous MoD duty officer then I am sure that there will be a follow up review.

It would be nice though if the BBC Defence correspondent Mr Beale could at least advise his news team that the picture being used on his BBC website covering his 'breaking' story was a Merlin.

But then again who cares, it is all still speculation until a Service Inquiry report and on the scale, a picture doesn't register at all.

Sad news.

[lmgaylard]

Dear all.
I sincerely apologise for my unusual lack of tact in this matter.


It certainly was not my intention to upset or distress anyone on here and I didn't appreciate that family members may well be looking on this site for info.


I was just trying to be helpful passing on what I was told.


Once again I am sincerely sorry for any upset caused.

[b1beefer]

MaroonMan4,

That pic is actually a Puma (looks like a Super Puma actually with the stabiliser fin under the tail boom)...

Either way, yet another episode of the BBC using completely inappropriate pictures.

[Sloppy Link]

Beaver is no longer serving in any shape, manner or form.

[nice castle]

Gaylard, I don't know you, or whether you're still serving, but if so, get some education by attending a PCMIO course. Thanks for deleting your earlier post. Well done for making an upfront apology rather than trying to justify yourself. Never do that again please.

[smujsmith]

Whatever mistakes have been made, our thoughts should be with all families who have loved ones serving in theatre at this time. It's sickening watching the press, particularly the BBC News 24/Sky News types battling to release speculation as "breaking news", perhaps we should all consider complaining about their unjustified haste, without formal confirmation. To me its sickening that the media in General would rather push out speculation and be wrong, than wait for the facts, and then report that correctly. It's especially egregious when done by the BBC. Of course none of this will console the next of kin when the official announcement is made, I for one offer my sincere condolences.

Smudge

[TheWizard]

There is a post on "Twitter" from a well known AAC unit naming the aircraft type. Don't feel the need to repeat it on here but if you feel the need to know then the info is there.

[barnstormer1968]

Here is Paul Beaver, the expert of choice lately for the Beeb, and the same expert who gave a radio interview after the recent Pedro Blackhawk crash in East Anglia. He was touted as an expert and former pilot, but went on to say that the Blackhawk had come down softy and that its blades were still intact !

BBC News - Five UK personnel die in Afghanistan helicopter crash (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27170955)

[lytebyte2002]

Sad to see it was a lynx

[SRENNAPS]

Just heard this news!!!!! So sad. RIP and thoughts to the families and friends.

[Two's in]

To me its sickening that the media in General would rather push out speculation and be wrong, than wait for the facts, and then report that correctly. It's especially egregious when done by the BBC.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news smuj, but in the era of electronic news gathering and 24 hours cable news the "prize" only goes to the first report, not the accurate report. The BBC are just as predatory as CNN or Fox in pi$$ng over the graves of the recently deceased to get the story. If you start by assuming they are all vermin and make the appropriate exceptions you won't go far wrong. That said, if there wasn't an appetite for this type of coverage among the chattering classes and Daily Mail readers it would be less prevalent.

However, I have now become as guilty as the others on this thread in making this story about reprehensible behaviour by those who should know better, rather than the real story of the loss of 5 comrades-in-arms.

RIP.

[melmothtw]

For all the media bashing, the details of this story had to have come from a serving member of the armed forces who was there to know.

[ditchvisitor]

Just watched the BBC news and the assumptions and comments made by the so called Military Specialist are awful!

[Hummingfrog]

The press can't be trusted at all:hmm:

I was the Seaking SAR Flt Cdr when the Chinook crashed on an air test. Unfortunately a local saw the crash and rang the UK to say a helicopter had crashed. The BBC then transmitted that a helicopter had crashed in the Falklands. As there were at least 3 types (Chinook, Seaking and S61) operating in theatre this would have caused great distress to any family who had men flying any of these types.

On returning from the SAROP I had to quickly contact 8 families to reassure them that there husbands etc were not involved. Fortunately, due to having up to date next of kin information, I was able to contact everybody before they heard the distressing news via the inconsiderate Falkland Islander and impatient BBC who didn't wait until they had accurate facts.

It is even worse now that information can be spread so quickly, then everything military went through only one source, the satellite dish outside Stanley. Normal troop communication was via the paper bluey:ok:

HF

[melmothtw]

Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience HF, but as a member of the press myself I can assure you that we are not all cut from the same cloth. As in every walk of life, there are good and bad, and some people are just jerks.

Personally, I wouldn't release such information without having all the facts first, but then I don't write for a tabloid and I don't have the pressures of churning out 24/7 news.

Bringing it back to this particular case, like I said the detailed information had to have come from serving military in theatre. Good and bad in all walks...

[High_lander]

Hummingfrog

My father was on the same flight as you at the time and my mother remembers the panic she had once she heard the news. She remembers dialling my father and getting the operator stating they couldn't put her through.

Thoughts are with the family at this difficult time.

[NutLoose]

Not disparaging anyone, but there are more than service personnel serving in theatre Melmothtw

[melmothtw]

Aware of that Nutloose, but on the balance of probability I'd say that the precise aircraft type and unit details that folks are (rightly) objecting to would have come from UK/NATO military.

[jayteeto]

Facts don't matter, only the headline. The BBC just showed a Blackhawk and a Chinook. The line was that the lynx was smaller than the Merlin and Chinook. The general public don't know and the press don't care. Try to understand what you are dealing with and don't take it too personally. Even if you complain, they couldn't give a toss.

[MATELO]

It's sad, but these stories will always leak out.

With mobile phones, IPads etc almost instantly connecting to the WWW/Facebook/twitter it is only a matter of minutes before somebody back in the UK finds out.

RIP all on board.

[Stitchbitch]

RIP fellas. :(

[Tankertrashnav]

Another five lives wasted in a lost cause as we come to the end of yet another fruitless campaign to add to those this country has fought in that benighted country in the last 150 years or so.

My own son came home safe from his time on ops there - five more sets of parents and loved ones are not going to be so lucky - my heart goes out to them.

[melmothtw]

Saturday night drinking and typing is never a good idea Gnd. Ranting on an anonymous forum isn't so bad, but please don't follow it up with an email to your boss telling him what you really think...

[NutLoose]

Words fail me Gnd..

[Fortissimo]

Is Gnd short for Gonad?

[cooheed]

R.I.P. guys

[smujsmith]

Twos in,

"Hate to be the bearer of bad news smuj, but in the era of electronic news gathering and 24 hours cable news the "prize" only goes to the first report, not the accurate report. The BBC are just as predatory as CNN or Fox in pi$$ng over the graves of the recently deceased to get the story. If you start by assuming they are all vermin and make the appropriate exceptions you won't go far wrong."

Thanks for your guidance and advice on how to respond to media hype. You aren't the bearer of bad news, because what you are saying is exactly aligned with my thinking. Whatever their motives, monetary or point scoring, it can never justify the guesswork used to to create angst for many families who have relatives serving in Afghanistan. Whatever era we are in, surely human decency has some merit? Maybe, the press race to be first is starting to overcome respect for family and friends of possible casualties of such events. I offer no argument to your post, I only ask if the media need tragedies like this to make money.

Smudge

[AtomKraft]

Afghanistan.


Poor strategy, followed by good tactics. Thus a total failure.


So sad. I'm ex AAC and my heart goes out to the families of those lost in this most pointless war.


Be they Brits or locals.


The whole thing has been cruel and fruitless.


To lose a child in this stupid war is unbearable.

[superq7]

Atom as a civilian I completely agree, such a waste of lives a stupid war.

[juliet]

Im putting 2 and 2 together and guessing that I know these guys from my time in the AAC. As such Im saddened by the loss. However please don't cheapen what these guys were doing. We all went, and continue to go, to these places voluntarily. We believed in the job that we did or do, believed in our mates.

Its incredibly sad to lose mates, it must be horrific to lose family, but I would hate to think that if I had been a casualty it would have been written off as a waste of a life. I would like to think that it had meant something. I certainly think that these guys ultimately died for something, and whatever that may be, I hate to think that people may think that it was all just a waste of time.

My thoughts are with the families and the squadrons.

Rest in peace.

[BravoWhisky7A]

My sincere condolences to all affected by the accident.

Shocking news.....

BW7A

[topgas]

Juliet- we'll said. Any life lost is tragic, particularly this close to end of ops, but to tell the grieving relatives their loved one died in vain is not helpful to them coming to terms with their loss. There are more appropriate times and places to discuss this aspect.

[Sue Bravo]

It saddens me that this thread has come about because of a tragic event which has almost become secondary to the multiple lines of bickering. I know that you all mean well but may I suggest that nothing further is posted until the facts are known. Thank you all.

[Lima Juliet]

The best among us are not among us,
You will not find them here;
They stand on distant lands and shores,
For freedom’s cause so dear.

RIP :(

[sonicstomp]

tragic news - RIP guys

[Deneb]

Very close to home....thoughts with the families...

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

RIP

Duncs:ok:

[P6 Driver]

I hope that this could be the final time we hear of this sort of tragedy before the campaign ends.

Juliet wrote - Im putting 2 and 2 together and guessing that I know these guys from my time in
the AAC. This might well be the case, but perhaps better to check first before speculating or making an assumption on a subject as important as this, just for your own peace of mind - you could be wrong.

[teeteringhead]

I'm not knocking journos - not too much anyway - but you can't altogether blame modern comms, red tops and 24/7 news.

I recall in the Dhofar war when one of our Hueys was shot down, a respectable paper - can't recall exactly but it was Telegraph or Times or their Sunday equivalents - printed a tiny single paragraph along the lines of:

"A SOAF helicopter has been shot down in Dhofar, killing two British pilots; next of kin have NOT yet been informed." :eek::eek:

Given the comms in the mid 70s you can imagine the panic that ensued. A chum and self wrote a very rude letter to the editor, getting a bland reply saying words to the effect of:

"Sorry mate - that's the way it is. If we hadn't published it, someone else would have."

I'll try and find the letter with the exact words......:(

So it's competition, competition, competition. And that was in the days of Fleet Street, "hot metal" and telegrams.......

[melmothtw]

"A SOAF helicopter has been shot down in Dhofar, killing two British pilots; next of kin have NOT yet been informed." :eek::eek:

Isn't all that different from the MoD's announcement below which kicked-off this thread, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't a journalist that broadcast the aircraft type and unit details on here that caused much of the outrage.


The MOD can confirm that a UK helicopter crashed in southern Afghanistan
today, 26 April 2014.


https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/25377/s300_Crest_Black.jpg

The incident is under investigation and the process of notifying next of kin
is under way. It would be inappropriate to comment further at this
time.



If the MoD/ISAF choose to announce the loss of the helicopter before the next-of-kin have been informed, you can't blame the media for reporting it. If servicemen who should know better then start putting specific details out into the public domain, then again it isn't the fault of the media who report it.

It's just a tad hypocritical to blaming the messenger, when I'd wager that most of those on this forum (ie; all those without direct involvment with the incident or the investigation) will be going to those same media sources in order to try and find out more information.

Separately, happy to see Gnd has sobered up and removed his post.

[satsuma]

Good point. You can't use AND abuse the media.

[jenxwso]

I now remember why I rarely use this forum anymore.....

RIP guys, you've done your country proud stepping up to the mark when required, thoughts with your family & friends at this time.

So much bitching & speculation goes on at these times, not condolences......... not really informed debate, not at all required, and as a serving member at the deployed base in question this is BS.
Well said Juliet....
That is all.

[Tappers Dad]

My Condolences to the families, friends and units involved. I know how people and their families who get terrible news like this can just revert into themselves and completely change who they are because of the loss.

R.I.P guys

[Genstabler]

From the MoD site:

"It is with great sadness that the Ministry of Defence must confirm the deaths of five UK Service personnel following a Lynx helicopter crash.

The crash happened during a routine flight in Kandahar Province, southern Afghanistan, on 26 April 2014. Three of the servicemen were from the Army Air Corps, based at RAF Odiham in Hampshire. One was a Royal Air Force serviceman also based at RAF Odiham. One was a member of the Army Reserve from 3 Military Intelligence Battalion, based in London.

Commander Joint Helicopter Command, Major General Richard Felton, said:

It is with great sadness that we must confirm that five UK Service personnel have been killed in this incident which, at this early stage, would appear to have been a tragic accident.

Events like this, whilst mercifully rare, remind us of the risks our personnel face in their work in Afghanistan as we approach the conclusion of the combat mission later this year. Our thoughts are with the families and loved ones of those who have lost their lives.

The next of kin of all the servicemen have been informed".

Rest in peace.

[wizdimic]

Such sad news. My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those involved. RIP guys.

[NikolaiRubenstein]

A very sad and tragic loss, indeed. Thoughts are with families, friends and colleagues.

RIP.

[etonrifle]

Rest in peace.

Our thoughts are with all family members.

[The B Word]

RIP and God be with you...

Per terras perque caelum

[diginagain]

RIP, fellas.

BBC News - Afghanistan helicopter crash personnel named by MoD (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27183641)

Machen Wir.

[ShyTorque]

My sincere condolences to all affected by the tragedy.

Another sobering reminder of the fraility of human life in the face of adversity.

[ditchvisitor]

RIP Pies, a pleasure to have known you, another gone too soon.

[Squirrel 41]

RIP. Glass raised tonight.

S41

[airsound]

Not sure if this doesn't warrant a new thread, since this one doesn't really include much other than condolences and media-bashing.

But anyway, the Beeb has reported on the conclusion of the coroner's inquest into the five deaths.
Afghanistan helicopter crash inquest: Coroner calls for safety improvements - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35813915)

I don't recall seeing any reports of the Service Inquiry.

airsound

[[email protected]]

There was one.

Strange how our latest top 5 Risks to Life for mil crews doesn't include CFIT!

[airsound]

There was indeed, crab. Found it
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/service-inquiry-accident-involving-lynx-mk-9-zf540-on-26-april-2014--2

airsound

[tucumseh]

In this case, and within MAA imposed restrictions, the SI did a very good job; obviously helped by having a CVR, despite the installation design being poor. But what is lacking is a knowledgeable overview, perhaps helped by a simple relational database, which produces a comment of "FFS, NOT AGAIN". There are whole sections of this SI report that could have been lifted from ZD576 in 1994. Nobody asks "Why have previous recommendations not been implemented?" Yet again, defences in depth have been weakened or eliminated through not implementing mandated regs.

The most obvious similarity, and picked up by the media, was the RadAlt. The same one is fitted to both aircraft. Therefore, the same systemic failures apply. Like ZD576, there are lots of comments and implied criticism of crew, but there is no technical investigation of the background to see what could cause such failures. One simple example - has the modification been embodied to eliminate false tracking at 100-200 feet, which results in the indicators lurching through steps and false LLW warnings? I'd like to see the engineering report. In the list of avionics does it note the mod state? It's a simple thing to do. Then, the person employed to know about this can take one look and say "Well, you wouldn't expect it to work properly" - or whatever. On the other hand, I wonder if MoD realises this Lynx report actually contains the explanation that, had it been acknowledged on ZD576, would have prevented criticisms of that crew. (LLW bug procedures).

There is another thread running about how the MAA is getting on, after 6 years. Judging by this case, one step forward, two back.

[Mil-26Man]

Service inquiry conclusion was reported


'Procedural drift' largely to blame for fatal UK Lynx crash in Afghanistan, report finds | IHS Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/53033/procedural-drift-largely-to-blame-for-fatal-uk-lynx-crash-in-afghanistan-report-finds)

[airsound]

Thanks Mil-26 - missed that!

tuc - I'm sure most people will realise that when you say ZD576, you're referring to the Mull of Kintyre Chinook. But perhaps not everyone....

airsound

[airsound]

Here's the full text of the narrative conclusion of HM Senior Coroner for Oxfordshire, published with his permissionLynx Inquest - Oxford Coroners Court 15 March 2016 - Narrative Conclusion


On Saturday 26 April 2014 at approximately 10:30 local Afghan time, Lynx Helicopter ZF540 crashed approximately 20 kilometres south of Kandahar Airfield in the Chaghray Ghar Valley, Afghanistan. All 5 on board (3 crew and 2 passengers) died from multiple injuries and the effects of fire. The aircraft was the lead aircraft in a formation of two Lynx helicopters conducting a live fire exercise in an area known as the Bowling Alley which is part of the Texas Helo Range. The incident occurred on the 6th serial of a race track pattern when the aircraft commander instructed the handling pilot to conduct an earlier left descending turn into the valley which required a higher rate of descent than the previous serials. The other Lynx helicopter was ahead in the valley range and it was necessary for the crew to locate it and maintain separation whilst descending. There was a loss of situational awareness with respect to height and rate of closure with the ground resulting in a misjudgement of height over the featureless desert surface leading to an impact with the ridge of a dried up riverbed not seen by crew until too late, about 1 second prior to impact with the ground. The radar altimeter which provides a warning to the crew of proximity to the ground was set below the authorised minimum at only 25ft and did not alarm in time to enable the crew to prevent the aircraft being accidently flown in to the ground. The accident was contributed to by under manning and an unsatisfactory system of training on the squadron resulting in the potential for cumulative fatigue and skill fade. 



Mr D. M. Salter 
HM Senior Coroner for Oxfordshireairsound

[Distant Voice]

I note that in para 1.4.235 we get back to the old subject of Duty Holders and ALARP. The ODH (2*) is legally responsible and accountable for the airworthiness, maintenance and safe use of the air systems in their defined area of responsibility. According to MAA RA1210 he is required to make an argument (written statement)that all risks are tolerable and ALARP, which must include CFIT. The validity of the argument can only be decided definitively by the courts, if an accident occurs; which it has. So will we see the Comd JHC (2*) in court, and who will initiate the move? If he goes to court then AOC No 1 Group must go to justify his tolerable and ALARP statement for Tornado.

I also note that, once again (page 1.4-67), the meaningless figure of 1 in 1000 per year is used as the acceptable level of tolerability. For Army Lynx the level was 0/1000 before the accident, and 6/1000 after the accident, which means that the CFIT risk is no longer tolerable and therefore not safe. The figure of 0/1000 is also used for Typhoon CWS, and suggests to me that MoD/MAA use actual death rates as the means of determining what is tolerable and what is not. No deaths means a risk is tolerable, this is worse than the approach used for Nimrod fire risk.

DV

[tucumseh]

A simple question. How does a typical ODH exercise his obligation to ensure airworthiness is attained and maintained? I wonder if the engineers who actually do it are now in his direct management chain. Interesting concept if they are. If he does not have absolute control, how can he be liable? There are lots of similar examples in MoD, and the CPS has ruled a number of times that this prevents accountability. We saw at the Nimrod and C130 inquests that the respective IPT leaders, 2 ranks below the ODH, had very little input over this in any way, as there were numerous and complex dependencies wholly outwith their knowledge, never mind control. At the latter, the IPTL admitted he hadn't a clue how fitness for purpose was attained or maintained, denying his team had anything to do with it, which any of his staff could have told him is nonsense. Bu**ers muddle if you ask me.

I suspect serious questions have now been asked of the MAA. They've existed for 6 years. It was predicted here at the time (late 2009) that they would be given a period of grace to get up and running. Someone will have asked why the same old failings remain. Hence, I suspect, the original question on the other thread discussing the MAA.

[Distant Voice]

The other Lynx helicopter was ahead in the valley range and it was necessary for the crew to locate it and maintain separation whilst descending. There was a loss of situational awareness with respect to height and rate of closure with the ground resulting in a misjudgement of height over the featureless desert surface

Necessary to locate it [other Lynx] in order to avoid a collision? What about installing CWS. According to a Mil Cap safety management report, dated 28th Jan 2014, 'Mid-air collision is Cdr JHC's (ODH) number one Air Safety risk', a risk that was known about at the time of the accident, and a risk that was not ALARP. This is what is said about the CWS in Bond's Super Puma helicopters. Bond did not wait for an accident, they realised there was a possibility and acted.

"There is no doubt that the TCAS II display rapidly becomes one of the more important instruments in the cockpit. The enhanced situational awareness provided by TCASII allows the pilots to concentrate on flying and operating the aircraft with higher levels of confidence and safety than would be possible with other systems"

DV